hello luthier!

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Ataros

Funboys improve sales and encourage the devs.

Whiners reduce sales and discourage the devs.

Quite simple.

Fanboys can't really judge a product, while whiners do it harshly: you know that without critics a product can't improve (damn... there were tools enjoying the sound engine!).

It's not whiners' fault if the the sales are not improving: it's the develpers' fault. Luckly Ubi is not really vocal about this game... at least they are honest; can you really deceive the customers selling them an unfinished application? I can't...

I repeat again: almost all the guys in my squad bought the game the day it was released in Europe. We had faith and defended it, we have talked about it to our friends because we believed Luthier's words (far more than Oleg's ones)... anyway in the last months we ALL lost our patience (even Insuber who was the most loyal... still I can't understand how he can "fly" online...)

The whiners can be hushed only by telling them the truth! I had no problem to support the team with my money once or twice. But I need to be assured by the developer that they are working in the right way...

Sadly nothing seems to right this way... starting the development of a new theatre is not that I would to hear until the engine core is ok. Blaming an anti-eplilessy filter for the bad performance was not the right way. Nor is the lack of communication/news.

Well... I gave my support but I can't really defend this game like I did before.

[addman]

Everybody who takes their time posting in this thread is clearly a fanboy. Here's my summary so far of CloD:

-Game was released unfinished (twice).
+Game has huge potential.

-Game is poorly coded (this is obvious).
+Game is getting patched, albeit a bit slower than hoped for.

-Developer doesn't interact openly and often enough.
+Luthier has given us a "roadmap" for the future of the game.

-Non existant marketing for release (except for in Russia)
+The game has actually been released!

-I'm not playing the game anymore.
+I will play it again as soon as it's up to par (this is subjective of course).

-I will never buy another 1c/MG product again if they don't fix CloD.
+I will continue to buy 1c/MG products if they fix CloD.

I see both sides of the coin and I vote with my €.

[WT_Schmouddle]

Well, well.

here you got a story of a 1C:customer.


I heard the superlatives as 1C was feeding its potential customers. I listened to them. When it was out, I bought it first day.

I went through setting up and found out my plain TIR3 was not supported. I ordered TIR5 from US. A first warning bell went off in my head.

I continued with setting up and on my fairly average rig (Phenom X4 3,2Ghz, 4Gigs RAM, 260OC) I got unplayable game. I was forced to play it in 800x600 window in order to keep framerates high enough. I was shocked by "quality" of sounds. I was horrified of lack of AA/AF. I was terrified by landscape ugliness on low settings. I was shred to tears having 5fps over London, 800x600x32 no AA and no AF.

Then I went to do some proper flying, in the countryside, where fps was somewhat OK. I am a sport pilot IRL and a history buff, so I know what do in WWII airplanes. Equipped with a copy of pilot's notes of Hurricane Mk.I, I spawned myself with a Hurricane, keen on trying the advertised superb clickable cockpit. Yes, I went through the switches and levers. But I was not able to fire that crate up. Not because of bad settings of mixture or whatever. I did not find the coil boost and starter buttons. I tried for 15-20mins blaming my sillyness and after that asked my mate what I am doing wrong. The answer presented with a hearthy laughter was I had to hit I for an engine to start. A second, very loud WTF warning bell started to swing in my dumbfounded head.

After that I was able to fly, wondering how easy it was (full realistic, of course), my approaches and landings were on spot. Sure. I would never accomplish anything like that in real deal. This time, no bell went off, I just accepted that is due to other player's experience issue, yes, I have very high demands on FM and not all simmers are real pilots. Mmmkay then.

Then, another mate asked on forums how to deal with his problems flying the Blenheim. He was somehow able to take off, but afer few minutes, engines went dead. I plunged into that problem, equipped with yet another pilot's notes copy. What I found was, the link between analog controller and the in-cockpit lever was reversed. That means, while the GUI lever was in full rich, the cockpit lever was in full lean, thus reversing the control input. We have been flying on full lean all the time. After that, I found out the ground handling of Blenheim in that test mission was utterly unrealistic from what I know of real flying, as it exhibited a massive tendency to swing to the side both in three and two wheel attitude, which I was only able to counter with setting less power on one engine as controls seemed to be innefective. Later I found out there was a default heavy rudder trim set, which was very effective even in slow pace in three point attitude.
Very strange linkage between the real world input and the cockpit lever, coupled with strange FM behavior on takeoff, that was a bell #3 and a last one.

And that was the end of my flying with Blenheim and the end of my flying CloD. I just quit playing it, it was not worth my precious time and effort as these could be spent more reasonably somewhere else
As I got a digital download, there was no DVD to put on back row on my shelf.

Two weeks after, my $130 TrackIR5 arrived. It was put to a very good use in Rise of Flight, shame I do not have enough time to become another Red Baron.

There was a few bucks lost (and no, it is not a cost of a single date here) and some lessons learned.
I paid a price, expecting a reasonably finished product. I got early aplha. So there is no way I ever buy any 1C:Maddox game in the future unless proved playable by people I trust.

How is it called? Loss of customer's trust towards the developer? A marketing failure?
Because as this customer was cheated, was lied to and after several months did not get the product he bought, he just don't care anymore and is very sceptical about the "support your sheriff" stuff. He knows there are many possible sheriffs out there in town. Sure there is one better then the current one, who is hastily covering his mistakes in keeping public safe and happy.


Decide for yourself.

[MadTommy]

^^

I wont buy any sim on launch date again... Rise of Flight was a disaster initially, purchased it on release day.. after several months struggling with it issues i put it aside of nearly two years.. now it's a gem, started playing again and love it now.

CloD seems to be taking a very similar path.. i suspect in 18 months it will be a lot of fun and hopefully a polished release.

The people i take my hat off to is the DCS team.. i was part of the open beta for A10-c, as a beta i accepted its flaws, there were many, there still are! But being a beta i gave them the slack as i knew what i was getting. Its a great sim now.. but if they had released the beta as the final product it would have been in the same boat as RoF & CloD. They made the right move in my book.

Basically its a sad state of affairs that consumers do not get finished products.. they get betas that need numerous patches... BUT they are still a million times better than Call of Duty and anything like that... we are a niche group, flight simmers, but we have to live off 1/2 finished products... still better than no product.

Originally Posted by MadTommy

^^

I wont buy any sim on launch date again... Rise of Flight was a disaster initially, purchased it on release day.. after several months struggling with it issues i put it aside of nearly two years.. now it's a gem, started playing again and love it now.

CloD seems to be taking a very similar path.. i suspect in 18 months it will be a lot of fun and hopefully a polished release.

The people i take my hat off to is the DCS team.. i was part of the open beta for A10-c, as a beta i accepted its flaws, there were many, there still are! But being a beta i gave them the slack as i knew what i was getting. Its a great sim now.. but if they had released the beta as the final product it would have been in the same boat as RoF & CloD. They made the right move in my book.

Basically its a sad state of affairs that consumers to not get finished products.. they get betas that need numerous patches... BUT they are still a million times better than Call of Duty and anything like that... we are a niche group, flight simmers, but we have to live off 1/2 finished products... still better than no product.

This is not true... It was not a disaster. Yes, everything else except flying was terrible, but - it was FUN! And all customers knew in which circumstancies they developed it and what is their goal to achieve. ROF now shows the path to the future of flight sims.
You forgeting also a development timeframe... How much time and experience was on the MG side? And what is the result? Acceptable only by fanboy with half of the brain...

[MadTommy]

The fact that i got feed up and stop playing RoF for 2 years is a testament to my opinion of it. We ran one of the 1st dedicated RoF servers.. it was a complete nightmare.

And if you are calling me a 1/2 brained fanboy, well either you have completely misunderstood my comments and or you are a no brained whiner!

I'm not happy with it, hence why it has put me off buying sims on release, as i want proof they work 1st. It has also put me off buying Red Orchestra 2 as it is also under 1c production.

[SYN_Repent]

Please say that ain't true tommy, ro2 is under 1c production?

[MadTommy]

Afraid so.. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/forumdisplay.php?f=156

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Opitz

"That means that the team is growing, we are hiring, and we’re not going anywhere."

Is it some kind of threat?

Yes, it's a threat they'll do their best to fix the game, if they succeed some people will have less things to complain about and will actually have to start flying for a change. Can you imagine that, they might even start having fun! Oh the horror!

Originally Posted by furbs

Im sorry but Luthiers post *swear word* me more than before, he says he reads this forum?? and them comes on and posts that?

What have they been doing for the last 4 weeks???

Que Carguy, Blackdog, robtek and the others to now tell me "look he posted" be calm, just wait, your being silly.

you guys wait and play nice, im happy for you, i really am. but dont even reply to me cos i dont care and im not listening ok?

Me? im *swearwords* off like you wouldnt believe with that waste of internet space post.

Community member : "Say something!"

Luthier: "Ok, here's a few words. Things are on the same pace as before and results are not ready yet so i can't post anything tangible, just telling you all that we just keep working on it. We are financially secure and hiring more people to speed things up, which should also tell you we're committed for the long haul, otherwise we would just buy a dacha in the outskirts of Moscow and retire instead of spending your money on more programmers."

Community member: "I don't like your words because there's nothing tangible, i didn't just want some words i wanted to hear very specific things and now i'm a sad bunny, even though i initially said i just wanted a bit of reassurance and never mentioned the conditionals lurking in the back of my mind."

You seem to not enjoy the sim, you don't enjoy the forums, you don't enjoy the content of the developer feedback and you don't want being replied to. What exactly are you doing here then? Take a break and do something else

Originally Posted by furbs

Bliss, first you shouldn't have to go all through that to get COD to run well, its badly optimized and coded.
with your hardware you shouldnt have to jump through hoops, textures set to medium with 2x 580 3gb?? !!!
that my friend takes the *beep*

So your playing online with a game that looks like this in 2011 with your kit? and your happy with this...


By furbs9999 at 2011-07-20

when the landscape from a good IL2 map looks like this...


By furbs9999 at 2011-01-24

For the umpteenth time, we're not referring to the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" speculation. The game is what the game is, there is a way to get better performance and it costs some eye candy.

The fixation some people display on eye candy is preventing them from getting acceptable performance, which in turn is preventing them from playing the game and that in turn is preventing them from seeing what does work in the game.

And the stuff that works is downright brilliant in the way it's structured even though if might not be 100% correct yet: i'd rather have an engine that can simulate flutter effects and improved CEM while putting a thousand aircraft on the air at the cost of initially inaccurate FMs that will be tweaked over time and slideshow FPS when that many aircraft are present, than have an engine that only runs well because it's strictly and severely limited to getting acceptable performance at the cost of everything else.

Your mileage may vary and you're free to disagree, but we don't all share your opinion and priorities so your views will be challenged and not taken for granted. It's the essence of discussion, you are free to either deal with it or move on and no hard feelings will be had either way.

In short, 99% of the complaints are about graphics/sounds before shelving the sim, yet the majority of the people who complain the most have almost no idea about every other feature in the sim. They wouldn't be asking the same things over and over again, things that have been answered multiple times since April, if they had actually taken the time to explore a bit on their own. Perfect example of e-laziness if you ask me.


All this is comedy gold

Originally Posted by Rattlehead

Folks, bear with me on this post.

Some people may have tried this game called Test Drive Unlimited 2, developed by Eden Games, published by Atari. It's for all systems. I bought it on the Xbox 360.
Briefly, it is a sequel to a free roaming racing game of the same name released a while ago. The first game was pretty solid with no real issues.

This sequel was probably more buggy than Clod was when released. Keep in mind this game was partly developed for static hardware. (Consoles.)

After 10 hours of playing this game, my saved game was completely wiped out. Gone. Apparently it was a known problem, but it still happened to me and thousands of others.
There was so much slowdown that if I wasn't leading the race, it was almost unplayable. I'm talking maybe 10-15 fps, tops. There was slowdown even when I was driving around on my own.
The GPS in the game was so buggy that it forgot to track my mileage, and if I went off course I was put back MILES from where I went off, and the car handling?
Well, the Golf Gti and The Audi R8 were undriveable. It's like they had trolley wheels at the back.
Not only that, but they hacked out a lot of the cars and all the bikes that were in the original game.
There were other issues that I won't go into, but my point is that this was a pretty simple arcade racing game developed for static hardware, and it was absolutely ripe with bugs.
The complexities of developing a complicated flight sim for PC versus relatively simple arcade racers developed for static hardware don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath really.

Anyone played Medieval Total War for PC? The game could not even be completed without a huge patch that followed later. Slowdown on even the fastest systems (I was getting 5 fps in some parts at the time) and a myriad of other really significant bugs which made the game a real chore to play at first. (It did blossom later, after a few patches.)

People act like bugs or early releases are something new. Well, they're not. And thanks to the era of digital downloads, you can expect more and more games being released early and full of bugs, patches to follow.
It's just the way it is these days.

Only the biggest development houses with hundreds of employees can really release a polished (not bug free, mind you) game these days, and even then their job is made inifintely easier because the largest gaming audiences are on consoles, which haven't changed since 2005.
Last time I checked, there was no flight sim on the consoles, nor will there ever be.

I'm not saying paying customers should just put up with whatever comes their way, but a little understanding of the enormous challenges these guys who develop simulators face need to be understood.

Sorry for the ramble.

What are you talking about? 9 out of 10 people here are so fixated on the way the forest green/tracer/waves or other comparatively trivial issues (in terms of effort to fix, compared to the underlying game engine) look that the game mechanics pass over their heads with a loud "whooshing" sound

I fully agree with your post, but for a bunch of so called simulation fans here the thing that matters most is that the slovakia map in IL2:1946 at max detail looks better than COD's map at low detail, the amount of calculations required for the new CEM alone be damned


This is a low blow technique and i don't like comparing "hardcore-ness" for lack of a better word, but seriously, the way things have been going lately i'm getting the feeling that for a lot of people here their interest in aviation lies mainly in looking at and listening to pretty aircraft making big explosions and they are completely averse to learning a bit more about what makes the whole machine tick in the first place. Otherwise they would have found out the extend to which things like that are modeled in the sim but no, the greens are too vivid so i'll throw my helmet and goggles out the pram, cross my hands over my chest and try to convince everyone else that they are as miserable and not having fun as i am

Originally Posted by Vittuuntunut

New people are always welcome! *profanities*
To what? "Please be cheated!"

Is it impossible for you fanboy-lot to understand that most of pissed off people are so pissed because they paid more than just 50 € to play this game? They built monster-rigs and still can´t get game to work in the way that it is even remotely satisfying.

Oh yeah, I forgot that there are thousands of people that fly over london, fighting intense dogfights, all maxed out with 200+ FPS! I forgot that it´s your ûbermagic-rig that sets the standards for who is allowed to complain and who isn´t.

As you can clearly see there are manymanymany people who are very displeased about the games performace. What makes you think that they are all trolls who don´t own the game or don´t care about it? Is it because the game works for you?

I think it´s close to criminal to sell this broken game twice. To "welcome" new people to this "stfu, your rig just sucks!" / "it will be fixed!" mess. Even though this game works for some, there still are too many people suffering from poor performance.

I think this constant stream of "whinig" should really be here and stand as a warning. You shouldn´t be able to sell the crap and get away with it

Let alone do it twice!

Is this really so hard for you to understand Carguy?

As hard as it is for you to understand that i'm running it fine on a two year old PC with only 3GB of RAM, it looks good and flies smooth and i didn't even have to spent money on a new PC, so don't try and make it look like you represent everyone in the community because it works well for many of us

Originally Posted by Tvrdi

oh then, your so noble...working for a great cause...thank you!

Dude, give it a rest. You were a raging RoF supporter before it was released, then they did something that you didn't like and started dissing it in a way similar to the one you display here, now that it's fixed you love it again and use it as a comparison to diss CoD. Through all this and despite all your self-professed experience in beta testing and HW/SW tweaking, you didn't manage to learn the single most important thing that RoF could teach you: that a game with a severely limited engine and a business model that's not exactly suited to flight sims can still survive a rough start and succeed despite it's small audience, as long as the fans support it, the developers keep working on it and we all give it some time.

You're just bending in the wind like a tree branch and venting out loud until you get what you want, that's all. Don't make me go to simHQ and dig up the relevant quotes from way back in May-June 2009.

For a guy with so much PC experience you display an enormous lack of judgement. Otherwise you wouldn't have bought a game that everyone (including yourself) knew is full of bugs just to shatter your nerves. Unless you enjoy it in which case i'm not the one to judge. I don't discriminate against masochists as long as they keep their whips (and their self-inflicted anguish over a video game) to themselves, just don't try to tell me i should share your opinion because i flat out don't.

You're free to have your opinion and i'm free to have a different one, trying to make it look like you guys are representing the entire community will only make the ones you don't represent react even more against you. Your group are just the front page of the forum, there are other people spending time with the sim , getting to know the available tools and making useful contributions in the sub-forums that are a whole different group altogether.

And you depend on them to improve your gameplay experience

Originally Posted by carguy_

Yes, that is the point I`m making. You see I`m not trying to impose my vision of this game as it is. It is clear now that I`m exceptionally satisfied with the game, given the general user response. Yet I do not post daily that the landscape is lovely, the game runs with no stutters whatsoever or that the mp sound bug is non existant. On thiso forum the view must be faced by opposite view so the potential buyer (checking what he wants to buy unlike many ppl here) can make his own mind up about whether he wants to risk it or not. Because yes, in order to enjoy this game n its current state you have to work with your PC a little (my game configuration time alone is almost 4 hours) and see the good sides of it.
Always when one`s seeking information on a subject, he has to view the two sides of the coin to see the real picture. This is what I`m standing by.

Good post this one. There's a dozen things i'd like to see changed or improved that i consider much more important than antialiasing or SLI, but i didn't go about making a mess of the AA and SLI threads suggesting that my preferred fixes take place first.

It's this attitude of "i want this fixed, i want to know everything along the way and i want it to be first in line" displayed by some that's been getting to me lately.

I have a long list of fixes that are much easier to do for the devs as well, maybe i should start derailing every thread i see about sound and graphics to get my own way like some do, the spoiled brat way

Originally Posted by MadTommy

^^

I wont buy any sim on launch date again... Rise of Flight was a disaster initially, purchased it on release day.. after several months struggling with it issues i put it aside of nearly two years.. now it's a gem, started playing again and love it now.

CloD seems to be taking a very similar path.. i suspect in 18 months it will be a lot of fun and hopefully a polished release.

The people i take my hat off to is the DCS team.. i was part of the open beta for A10-c, as a beta i accepted its flaws, there were many, there still are! But being a beta i gave them the slack as i knew what i was getting. Its a great sim now.. but if they had released the beta as the final product it would have been in the same boat as RoF & CloD. They made the right move in my book.

Basically its a sad state of affairs that consumers do not get finished products.. they get betas that need numerous patches... BUT they are still a million times better than Call of Duty and anything like that... we are a niche group, flight simmers, but we have to live off 1/2 finished products... still better than no product.

That's a reasonable post as well. People have choices:

1) Buy at launch on a leap of faith and deal with the teething problems. Either enjoy it, bug report it or shut up about it and do something else for a while so the rest can do the bug hunting and community improvements in peace.

2) Wait for reviews, word of mouth and official ones. Make an informed decision and save yourself some trouble.

3) Buy at launch despite being short-tempered, don't enjoy it, complain repetitively in a way that's not useful to the developers and annoying to other players and make a fool of oneself.



Long story short, the broken record approach has been so overdone that everyone is desensitized and antagonistic to it by this point: the developers ignore it and the rest of the community openly confronts it out of sheer boredom caused by its repetitiveness.

I harbor no ill-will against any of you and i don't care to engage in personal attacks, but i think i'll start challenging you lot a bit more frequently from now on because i'm bored of your shenanigans and your tendency to drown out every meaningful bit of discussion by side-tracking every single thread to your personal pet peeves with the sim.

No hard feelings, just my opinion and i'm entitled to have one just like anybody else. Some of you guys just bore me to tears and disrupt the flow of discussions i like, so i'll see if i can do something to change it. That's all, nothing personal, i'm just out to preserve my personal fun factor as a member of the community whom your over-generalizations don't represent. Have a nice day

[furbs]

No offense Blackdog, but can you sum up as i have to go to work tomorrow...