Mods discussion, links, etc

[Viikate]

Originally Posted by bf-110

If wasn't because of them,IL2 would be still on 4.08

Perhaps is time for a little IL-2 history lesson, because many new players probably have no idea how the sim was developed. I've seen many people saying that 1C MG did stupid thing by not utilizing the works of modders and not making the IL-2 moddable in the first place. Well little do they know that there was a long period of so called 3rd party development. Sort of "legal modding". It started right after the very first IL-2 was released. Here is little blast from the past:

http://replay.web.archive.org/200211...il2center.com/
http://replay.web.archive.org/200112...il2center.com/
http://replay.web.archive.org/200211...il2center.com/

Anyone could make a reservation of some plane for himself and model it according to the sim specs. If it was done properly and sent to MG, it appeared later in some free patch or commercial add-on. If it was in add-on, the modeller got paid for his work.

My estimation is that probably half of the currently existing plane external & cockpit 3D models were made by the community members. The "first generation of modders". Called 3rd party members back then. The whole initial idea of TD was to gather these 3rd party guys back together and continue the old style quality development and ask some of the most talented modders to join.

This means that TD has many guys that were these old 3rd party guys and these guys have created just huge amount of 3D content for this sim. Planes, cockpits, ships, ground objects and even maps. I find it always pretty funny when some modder speaks crap about TD without realizing that is was some guy in TD who actually made his own mod possible.

Without the 3rd party guys (including several TD guys) there would be about 50% less raw materials for the "new" mod planes and lot less ships & ground objects, etc. So I think that it is pretty big middle finger aimed towards the old 3rd party guys if the 3rd party efforts are ignored and mods are raised on pedistal because they have made hundreds of "new" planes (from which the most of are variants of the existing planes). It takes 5 minutes to put wrong cockpit to old AI planes. It takes easily 6 months to model a historically correct pit.

I would even say that 4.09 & 4.10 was pretty much nothing compared to the full efforts of 3rd party. But at least TD is trying to maintain the same standards set by the best 3rd party work such as Tempest & Gladiator. Which means that TD won't put wrong cockpits to AI planes to make it flyable or release CR.42 as Hs 123, etc.

Bottom line: Thanks to the 3rd party efforts long before any modding, IL-2 now has huge amount of raw material that modders can recycle as new planes and use as objects in their maps. And not a single mod has ever given credits to a 3rd party guy who made the mod possible in the first place. These guys are all mentioned in readme files, but the average modder just doesn't care.

[|ZUTI|]

I much prefer to be passive observer but I have a simple question: why do you, TD members, argue here, in MODS section? Don't you have your own section one forum above this one? Make your statements there and leave this forum for mods discussion. But I guess that some of you just need your voices heard, no matter what. And argue till your fingers bleed. What a shame. Instead of being a true beacon for the IL2 community, you are here just to stir things up, it would seem.

If you are so much better than modders, this does not show that. I know why the TD was ORIGINALLY started and I am 200% sure that it was not for this purpose. Some of you might know, some of you know for sure. Not what your mission statement is NOW, what it was AT THE BEGINNING. Some members on your team surely have the knowledge, but their attitude... in a lot of eyes it just hurts you. And promotion of paid projects... absurd. Perhaps the best way for you guys to go would be paid add-ons. It would make you so desirable money and would also bring you much desired legal advantage.

And for the conclusion, I would like to ask something of you, TD. I read in your forum here that the old RRR thing was brought up once more. While some of your members are telling community that it was left out because it was flawed and was missing for that reason and others were arguing that it was arcade(ish) (while refly is so much more realistic...), would you do me one last favor and not include it at all? Since that is your opinion about it. The catch here is, naturally, that you can implement it on your own, sure. But then again, modders can also implement what you do on their own also. A nice loop. Specially since coding is such a wonderful world where one thing can be done on so many different ways.

Thank you.

[_1SMV_Gitano]

@|ZUTI|:

It has been asked if mod will get into official patches. The given answer clearly states what kind of material will never be in. You can like it or not. You can still mod your game.

Promotion of paid projects? Where?

RRR? Again, where?

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Originally Posted by |ZUTI|

why do you, TD members, argue here, in MODS section? Don't you have your own section one forum above this one?

Because there are lies and wrong informations, that get told here and on other places. And more and more DT is put into the dirt. Sometimes it just better not to be silent.

[Maori]

Originally Posted by Viikate

Bottom line: Thanks to the 3rd party efforts long before any modding, IL-2 now has huge amount of raw material that modders can recycle as new planes and use as objects in their maps. And not a single mod has ever given credits to a 3rd party guy who made the mod possible in the first place. These guys are all mentioned in readme files, but the average modder just doesn't care.

Sorry, but you're a bit incoherent there. Or to use someone's favourite words, you're a "deliberate liar".

Parts used from stock game is always credited GLOBALLY as coming from the stock game (so more precise credits are to be found in the corresponding readmes).

That is NOT omiting credits. Now if a particular modeller or coder desires a bit more personal attention, they are fully free to go to modding sites and ask for such more precise-explicit credits be there for a particular reutilization of their excellent work.

If you don't, means you're a grown up person that undertsands the way crediting is done via referring the user to stock readmes. Otherwise you're a child that doesn't go there to ask more personalized crediting but yet go in tears here about it.

[MicroWave]

Originally Posted by Maori

Sorry, but you're a bit incoherent there. Or to use someone's favourite words, you're a "deliberate liar".

Parts used from stock game is always credited GLOBALLY as coming from the stock game (so more precise credits are to be found in the corresponding readmes).

That is NOT omiting credits. Now if a particular modeller or coder desires a bit more personal attention, they are fully free to go to modding sites and ask for such more precise-explicit credits be there for a particular reutilization of their excellent work.

If you don't, means you're a grown up person that undertsands the way crediting is done via referring the user to stock readmes. Otherwise you're a child that doesn't go there to ask more personalized crediting but yet go in tears here about it.

If I were to take someone's car, I would make sure to ask owner's permission FIRST. I would not just take it and send a thank you note LATER.
As far as I know "stock" Il2 content (in whole and in parts) is not released with a priori permission to be modified and re-distributed as part of another "application".

[SaQSoN]

Originally Posted by MicroWave

If I were to take someone's car, I would make sure to ask owner's permission FIRST. I would not just take it and send a thank you note LATER.

Most of the modders don't even bother with the "thank you note", no matter, what someone tries to imply here. So why we should be gentle or polite with them?