Dot Visibility in COD and Other Flight ims.

[ElAurens]

I too run a Samsung PX 2370, It is my first LCD monitor. I was running a 19" Sony Trinitron or ViewSonic G90f before that.

After my first offline test of the Samsung I lowered the resolution from the monitor's native 1920 X 1080 to 1600 X 900 in an effort to see anything further away than my wingman. It only helped a tiny bit. When I fly online with friends on comms that still run CRTs, they are calling out targets long before I can see them. It's very frustrating, because otherwise the game looks beautiful on this monitor.

I'm seriously considering going back to 1024 X 768 and living with the black side bars. If it wasn't for the imminent arrival of Cliffs of Dover, and other games I play, I would shelve this LCD in favor of a CRT.

I wish there were an affordable 16 X 9 format CRT monitor, I would have one in a heartbeat.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

my only real experience with "dot problems" is that which has been existent since CRT days, the era the sim was designed in.

i'll have to disagree with you, and this is why:

screenshot from inside the original il2 shortly after 1e release:



the "dots' are clearly visible, and for this group of 4 fighters their visibility extended to over 10 km originally.

yes they were ugly, but they were effective (and no, i am not arguing for the return of massive dots like this). the point however is that these types of dots seen against a terrain scenery background (rather then open sky where they stand out like dog's balls) at say roughly 1 to 2 km would stand out much better, and they more closely would represent real life visibility ranges

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Current LCD technology may exasperbate the situation...

the dots were very large at original release, and soon after in patches were being made significantly smaller (and correctly so, the initial ones were to large). around the time PF was released the first people started to transition to lcd's but this coincided with the smaller dots (which had been made to small). in the 3.01 or 3.02 patch oleg increased them again (but not as bad as the original ones), but the fake-real whiners who had never been in a small aircraft in the whole of their life whined so loud oleg threw his hands in the air and reduced the size again (making them the near-invisible dots we have now). he has refused to address the issue ever since. worse, in the step from 4.08 to 4.09 they were made even smaller again, going from a 4 pixel dot to a 2 pixel dot.

my fear is that when oleg and his team briefly look at this issue when they hear some of the complains, they either use a CRT or a cheap TN based 6 bit lcd, and then say "what is their problem, i can vaguely see a dot there if i look in zoomed view", so their problem is
1) using a 6 bit monitor which artificially enhances the dot visibility SIGNIFICANTLY
2) rely on a zoomed view to sector search for bogeys (yet we should measure visibility in the normal correct FoV for the monitor size used, and not use an artificial zoom)
end result: for many players il2 became nearly unplayable if they had normal display hardware (8 bit lcd monitors), and were interested in SIMULATING a real ww2 fighter pilot experience. the air quake fake-real crowd however doesnt know any better, and believe having these near invisible enemy planes right near you is normal, yet it clearly isnt. yes occsionally a fighter from a particular direction or in a particular light will be hard to see, but not 99% of the time in perfect visibility conditions like we usually have in il2 daytime flights.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

and at the end of the day, no current technology will recreate what the eye sees.

that is a bit defeatist there is absolutely no reason why in 2011 a modern flight simulator can accurately represent correct visibility distances on screen for different aircraft between 100 and 5000 meters (which is the SA bubble you normally operate in for these ww2 fighter aircraft)

even i as a non technical person can point to one of the simple potential solutions: for ex if we now have 10 LoD models instead of the 3 we had before in il2, then as the LoD models get smaller in BoB oleg should add some type of visible enhancement. this could be by darkening the object colors, or adding a 3D enhancement that makes the object stand out more (as oleg already seems to have done for some of the LoD models in BoB). for these distant objects the focus should not be on "pretty", or right historical colors or shapes (if the end result means they become virtualy invisible at 25% of the distance you can see them at in real life), once the highly detailed aircraft gets to a certain distance from the viewer, some of these deliberate "visual enhancements" should be used rather then only using a smaller object with loss polygons that tries to keep the shape and color of the original.

[Wolf_Rider]

a 16x9 Trintron CRT.... my dream...

too bad the (years ago now) nVidia GeForce 85.95 (Sony killer driver) struck, else I'd still have my 19"



@ Zaptista...

deafeatist? no, realist... there is no way current technology can reproduce what the eye sees as far as monitors go. Problem being a monitor won't allow going smaller than a pixel where in realife it does.

I don't disagree at all with more LoD layers and 3d enhancements... that's a good suggestion

Nah... what the end dot result was, was realistic enough (real pilots have hard enough time finding white planes, even when advised which vector to look in)

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

a 16x9 Trintron CRT.... my dream...

too bad the (years ago now) nVidia GeForce 85.95 (Sony killer driver) struck, else I'd still have my 19")

I still use a 22" Iiyama Vision Master CRT at home, it's wonderful. Have to put up with a really crappy quality 17" 1280x1024 LCD when I'm away, though.

I think one of the major problems with Il-2's dot system is that the dots are often the wrong colour depending upon which direction you're looking at the enemy from. Makes it far too easy to spot them on low resolutions at times.

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by zapatista

if the main visibility "faults" mentioned earlier in this thread are corrected, you'd find most people with reasonably normal vision will have no major problems seeing planes at "normal RL visible distances" (since if they wear glasses in real life, they would wear them while using the pc).

also age related vision deterioration (in westerners) tends to affect near vision, less so far vision. so you might have some problems reading the cockpit instruments, but have less problems spotting a me-109 at 1500 meters

one other issue that many il2 users are not fully aware of, is that they need to set their FoV (field of view) settings correctly in the game for their monitor size (and for any given monitor there is only one correct FoV setting therefore). most il2 users will use the smaller FoV settings as a zoom magnifier to scan the ground, or to investigate a blip on the horizon, and this is also a way of "gaming the game" which does not represent "normal vision" (ie it is an artificial enhancement, as no ww2 fighter pilots had a pair of binoculars strapped to their face).

1) Have to disagree. Most, if not all of us don't have monitors that present a real-life sized image, hence the need to zoom. That's why the FOV functionality is there.

2) Also, If it hasn't already been mentioned, you have to run old IL-2 in native 4:3 aspect ratio, no matter your monitor size, or weird things happen like chopped off views on the peripheral or flattened dots in the distance.

[Wolf_Rider]

FoV isn't a zoom though... the model and background remain at the same distance relative to each other, in relation to the viewer, whilst more or less of the background is seen by the viewer depending on the FoV angle selected.

yes, il2 was designed for 4:3 CRT monitors

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

1) Have to disagree. Most, if not all of us don't have monitors that present a real-life sized image, hence the need to zoom. That's why the FOV functionality is there.

you are not correct there blaster. if you have a monitor larger then roughly 19', there is a fov setting that allows you to (theoretically) view in-game objects in their right real life sizes, by setting the in-game FoV to correspond to how large your monitor is

obviously for a 19' or 20' monitor this would be a fairly narrow FoV setting (roughly 40 degree's), and you'd have to sit reasonably close to your monitor. the fact it only provides a blinkered narrow view into the il2 world at that setting is entirely limited by the small "window" you are using, and switching to a wider FoV to obtain artificially enlarged peripheral vision to "game the game" is not an excuse to additionally have to accept other object size errors in the game (which do exist in il2, and hopefully most will all be corrected in BoB/SoW)

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

2) Also, If it hasn't already been mentioned, you have to run old IL-2 in native 4:3 aspect ratio, no matter your monitor size, or weird things happen like chopped off views on the peripheral or flattened dots in the distance.

not correct, there is no need for you to end up with any distortions or "chopped off view on the peripheral". with a minor config file edit you can perfectly display il2 on your widescreen monitor, and it doesnt introduce any display errors like visual distortions etc (it simply cuts a small strip of the top and bottom of the 5:4 or 4:3 original image, a small compromise for an initial work around most use.

in the screenshot below the orange box is the view you endup with for a widescreen monitor (presuming you correctly edited the config file)

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by zapatista

you are not correct there blaster. if you have a monitor larger then roughly 19', there is a fov setting that allows you to (theoretically) view in-game objects in their right real life sizes, by setting the in-game FoV to correspond to how large your monitor is

obviously for a 19' or 20' monitor this would be a fairly narrow FoV setting (roughly 40 degree's), and you'd have to sit reasonably close to your monitor. the fact it only provides a blinkered narrow view into the il2 world at that setting is entirely limited by the small "window" you are using, and switching to a wider FoV to obtain artificially enlarged peripheral vision to "game the game" is not an excuse to additionally have to accept other object size errors in the game (which do exist in il2, and hopefully most will all be corrected in BoB/SoW)

Adding more LOD computations should help with the dots. I will assume by your answer (i.e., "blinkered narrow view") that you agree with me that playing the game in one FOV to obtain a sense of realism is a ridiculous notion.

not correct, there is no need for you to end up with any distortions or "chopped off view on the peripheral". with a minor config file edit you can perfectly display il2 on your widescreen monitor, and it doesnt introduce any display errors like visual distortions etc (it simply cuts a small strip of the top and bottom of the 5:4 or 4:3 original image, a small compromise for an initial work around most use.

in the screenshot below the orange box is the view you endup with for a widescreen monitor (presuming you correctly edited the config file)

Actually, this is exactly what I was talking about. Chopping off the screen is a problem imo. For one, it reduces visibility of the guages. For example, view of the alitmeter gauge on certian planes where you need to view it simultaneously while flying to target in a low level bomb drop due to the altitude bomb/torpedo drop restrictions in 4.10. Makes it pretty tough if you can't see the gauge without moving your head up and down. Another example, the slip indicator. I like to see that without moving my head up and down when I'm turning.

For your own interest,you might also want to investigate the difference in the dots at comparable distance. On my monitor it actually flattens them a bit in 16:10 verses 4:3.

Bottom line, it boils down to personal taste. I would rather set up a custom 4:3 resolution on my 16:10 monitor than have the screen cut off for the reasons I mentioned, the cutoff screen and the flattening of the dots (albeit, there is still some flattening verses if I had a monitor with 4:3 native resolution).

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

you agree with me that playing the game in one FOV to obtain a sense of realism is a ridiculous notion.

no i dont agree at all with you this thread is discussing "dot and LoD visibility" in il2 and CoD, and the assumption is that therefore your pc system is setup correctly to display in-objects in their true to life sizes (ie have the ingame FoV set correctly for your monitor size). those players who then like to fly in an in-game world with objects correctly displayed in their true to life sizes and "distance visibility", can then briefly use snap views in certain conditions to overcome the limitations of sitting in their living rooms behind a pc, rather then be in a real fighter aircraft of ww2 (ie briefly zoom in when aiming at a specific part of an enemy plane, or briefly use increased peripheral view during a dogfight to maintain SA). some il2 users (like you) prefer to 90% of the time fly around in distorted FoV settings to "see more of the il2 world" around them (or pit gauges), or constantly use the zoom view like they would a pair of binoculars to scan the ground below them for targets. that is perfectly fine, each uses the game as they personally prefer, but you then cant complain the ingame objects are distorted or not correctly visible

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Actually, this is exactly what I was talking about. Chopping off the screen is a problem imo.

that is not an "error" in the game itself, its simply a limitation in your (and mine) financial resources to have a large enough monitor for how you personally would like to use the game. in your example your monitor is simply not large enough to display everything you want onscreen (a real pilot would simply lean back in the cockpit and hence see more gauges ?). if you have a smaller widescreen monitor that doesnt display enough gauges for your personal liking in landscape mode, you can use it in portrait mode if you really want the increased vertical area's to be visible (and edit the config ini file to that portrait resolution). it will display the image perfectly in il2 without distortion, and it will give you the significantly increased vertical viewing area you seem to be asking for (some people use a 3 screen setup in that configuration, there are old posts at the zoo on this)

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

[B]For one, it reduces visibility of the guages. For example, view of the alitmeter gauge on certian planes where you need to view it simultaneously while flying to target in a low level bomb drop due to the altitude bomb/torpedo drop restrictions in 4.10. Makes it pretty tough if you can't see the gauge without moving your head up and down. Another example, the slip indicator. I like to see that without moving my head up and down when I'm turning.

sure, but if you buy a sports car you cant complain about it not being able to haul cattle to market, or if you buy a pickup you cant complain it cant be competitive in the 24 hr of lemans race. its horses for courses really, not a design error. the main point you raised here in this thread (see OP topic) is can il2 (designed in the 4:3 era 10 yrs ago) correctly display its image on a widescreen monitor without distortion (and without black borders), and the answer is yes, it does this perfectly fine

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

For your own interest,you might also want to investigate the difference in the dots at comparable distance. On my monitor it actually flattens them a bit in 16:10 verses 4:3.

there is nothing to investigate there. if you correctly edit your config file there is no distortion whatsoever, if you purposefully however decided you preferred to squeeze the full 4:3 screen display into a a widescreen display then obviously it will distort everything onscreen (including dots)

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Bottom line, it boils down to personal taste. I would rather set up a custom 4:3 resolution on my 16:10 monitor than have the screen cut off for the reasons I mentioned, the cutoff screen and the flattening of the dots (albeit, there is still some flattening verses if I had a monitor with 4:3 native resolution).

yups, and that is your personal choice of how to use the game (which is perfectly fine, use it however suits you best). it isnt however a design error that you end up with distorted objects on screen or lack visibility in the cockpit for your gauges

i am much more concerned that with a perfectly setup system to display objects as true to life as possible, there are significant visibility problems to try and spot and track objects ingame (compared to real life visibility in a similar situation), and that most people therefore have to rely on artificial "distortion" settings to try and compensate for these errors (use zoom views, reduce screen resolution, load purpose made "ultra visible skins" for planes that make them standout more, etc ).

[Wolf_Rider]

the "chopping off" the top and bottom, is because the sim wasn't built for wide view aspect, it was built for 4:3 aspect, and changing the FoV doesn't make the objects bigger or smaller, as the objects/ background (terrain) remain at consistent distances relative to the viewer.
What running on a larger monitor does is, is it gives more defintion to the objects because the window is larger.