Spit sabotaged, Goering releieved

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by JtD

Torque effect is what is giving you the instability you can't deal with, so if you switch it off, you can stop whining.

The NACA report is not about the static stability. Damped Oscillations are not static.

Why would it be useful to compare all planes to the Spitfire NACA report?

If you have the resources to research, check and if necessary reprogram lateral stability for all planes currently present, I'm sure TD would be more than glad to have you among them.

I am not going to explain the difference between the static and dynamic stability to you here. I repeat , the NACA report is on the static stability about the yaw axis. The torque is only a complicating factor; what has been changed is the stabillity and damping factors and not the torque.
It is only the Spitfire and the Spitfire only to get this kind of a flight model with the low damping factors about the vertical and lateral axes ( yaw and pitch)
Even if we proclaim these values realistic, all the other planes fly with the much stronger damping factors. Now, do you really beleive the Spitfire had by far the least static stability and most unpleasant flying qualities of all the WWII fighters?

[swiss]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

Trim surfaces on the WWII planes looked like small 'rudders on a rudder', small control surfaces that would offset the main control surface slightly from its neutral line. Trim surface had to go down a bit to push the elevator up into a climb position. It ll be clear to you , that the maximum control moment of the elevator would be slightly reduced in it's extreme upward (climb) position, trimming surface deflecting the air-stream in the 'wrong', downward direction slightly.
So , if you trim 'UP', the effect of the elevator in the extreme upwards position would be slightly reduced.

Aha, so it does influence throw.
Funny you wrote:

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so

Btw: not all planes had trim ruders, the 109/190 had some sheet metal which bent on the ground afaik.

It is more or less opposite in IL2, where trimming the elevator DOWN, for example, reduces the effectiveness of the upwards elevator, unless you pull it to the really extreme position- and nobody ever does that actually.

I'll have to check that, but...
As much as I hate to say it, I think you got a valid(your only one imho) point there.
It would also explain why using trim in IL2 reduces your turn radius.
(hear say - if it really does, that should be on the top of fixes)

[TheGrunch]

That is maybe because in one of the later patches the game's stick deflection model was changed to a force based rather than simply an absolute control deflection based one? Not sure.

[Falke]

Belligerent

[fruitbat]

i've already told you that what your arguing about is fixed in the bug fix patch.

so this is largely a waste of time, but hey ho.

[FS~Phat]

Some interesting facts about known instability of spitfire mk V in 1942 due to field operations ignoring advice about careful placement of equipment in the field. It appears the instability was "cured" by some elevator modifications and some sort of mass balancer changes. But a significant number of spits were officially documented as "dangerously unstable"...

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/pol...e-3406-22.html

I love both the spit and 109 and flew the 109 almost exclusively for the first 3-4 years of my 10years with IL2. I have to say I was one to recently whinge about the latest FM changes but after a lot more research have come to the conclusion that TD's intent is admirable to replicate the documented "real life" not theoretical flight behaviour of the spit.

I do wonder though if they may have over done it, as it would appear these instability issues were well documented and addressed before the end of 1942.

I would like TD to consider some compromise on the stability changes in the new patch in favour of more stability as the problems did indeed exist if only for a year or so. Or is there some other way to allow us to compensate in the weapon/fuel loadout screen to gain more stability?

I do still think the elevator trim is overcooked a little too, as it definetly limits the ability to pull best possible radius turns if trimmed for level flight.

Thanks for listening!

FS~Phat

[JtD]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

I am not going to explain the difference between the static and dynamic stability to you here. I repeat , the NACA report is on the static stability about the yaw axis.

OK, whatever - and you're complaining about what?

The torque is only a complicating factor; what has been changed is the stabillity and damping factors and not the torque.

Produce a test, show the results.

It is only the Spitfire and the Spitfire only to get this kind of a flight model with the low damping factors about the vertical and lateral axes ( yaw and pitch)

OK, so how much lower is the damping about the vertical and lateral axis on the Spitfire than say on a P-51?

Even if we proclaim these values realistic, all the other planes fly with the much stronger damping factors. Now, do you really beleive the Spitfire had by far the least static stability and most unpleasant flying qualities of all the WWII fighters?

If the Spitfire is correct and all other planes are wrong, all other planes should be fixed and not the Spitfire be porked. As I've said before, if you have the resources to research and check all planes and make the necessary changes, you're effort would certainly be welcome.

[BENGALtiger]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

You clearly do not fully grasp the nature of trim.

It does, in NO way, WHATSOEVER, increase ability to turn. It does not give more elevator throw. It does not make them more effective. It will only ever alter the stick zero-force point.

I realise Il-2s implementation of this is not great, however, a competent pilot will trim as he fights, and pre-empt situations. I suggest you start flying the P-38 to learn how to do that effectively.

It is not 100% true that trim "in NO way, WHATSOEVER, increase ability to turn". You seem to believe this yourself when you mention the P38. By using elevator trim you can increase your ability to turn, as you won't have to fight as much compression/weight. You kind of contradicted yourself that post.

[engarde]

if you could see me, i'd have my hand over my face and my elbow on the desk.

so very often the It Doesnt Fly Like I Think It Should posts.

i'll say yet again, you have no freakin idea how the real spit is supposed to fly.

maybe it flew properly 25 Constant Clueless Complainer born revisions ago, and due to the fact you dont know hows its supposed to fly, you had no idea.

and so you and your pot-O-gold passed like ships in the night.

yet now you somehow are a significant enough authority to bleat on about control surfaces and yaw and lateral this and leaf that.....

ill bet that NONE, read that again NONE, of the aircraft in the il2 sims fly "liked theyre supposed to" largely due to the devs paying too much attention to the sounds of clueless crying?

after all, armchair pilots have all the opinion in the world and absolutely none of the stuff that really matters: REAL FLIGHT EXPERIENCE ON THE ACTUAL TYPE.

yet again, the circle begins.....

[Romanator21]

It is not 100% true that trim "in NO way, WHATSOEVER, increase ability to turn". You seem to believe this yourself when you mention the P38. By using elevator trim you can increase your ability to turn, as you won't have to fight as much compression/weight. You kind of contradicted yourself that post.

I think he means to say that trim functions differently in reality than it does in the game.

@engarde - I was a bit like you at one point, but I learned that debate is the best thing we can do to get closer to the truth. Now, WWII vets aren't exactly in the flight sim programming department now-a-days, so you can't be too bitter about speculation. The best source we have is documentation and personal accounts, and as long as debate revolves around these and not mud-slinging, a fair amount of understanding can be attained.

And if these threads bug you, don't look, and for God's sake, don't bother posting in them.