Spit sabotaged, Goering releieved

[PE_Tihi]

'I hate Spits!'- that's a sentence I heard again and again. It is the Bf pilots, of course, who have been saying it, but this newest version 4.10 'll make them sigh with relief, I am sure. Short time ago, on a Russian server a Bf flier starts an usual spitting on the Spit as being overclocked until a Russian countryman tells him 'Better take a look at these Russian planes of ours.'

Quite true what he said, of course. It is the La's and 185's that have been heavily overblown in climb and turn rate, not the Spit. Spit has the very suspiciously strong flaps which wouldn't break at speeds as high as 370 km/h- but that is in common with all the other planes in the game. Moreover, real Spits had a 5 minute limit to the use of WEP, because of the feared (it did happen sometimes) engine bearings damage, if used longer. This has no representation in the game.
That closes the list of the inaccuracies of the Spit FM I know about; if someone knows of any additional ones, I would be grateful.

Speeds, climb and turn rates are accurate as far as i know. I suspect, even, the turn rates of the 8 and later models has been spoiled a little bit, but I cannot say for sure.
Now, not being able to put the game plane performance in question, the Spit-hating creators of the 4.10 release literally sabotage the Spit's flying qualities.

In 4.10 the Spit has been made marginally stable about the yaw and pitch axes. Any fast stick movement and the plane is wallowing in the sky. The nose oscillates merrily around anything you may be aiming at, and hitting anything demands loads of luck. If brought to a stagnation in a verical climb, the plane has no naturally stable tendency to drop the nose, but it falls like a leaf showing almost indifferent static stabillity.

The plane behaves as if it's tail surfaces have been halved compared to the 4.09.
NO OTHER plane in the game shows such instabillity. The FM of NO OTHER plane has ever been touched significantly from DT, only the Spitfire's .

If DS ever thought about correcting the maximum lift of the Bf, which does seem to be a nice bit lower than the real one(especially for the 109E), I do not imagine they would ever get the permission to do it. That would change how the Bf-s compares with the russian planes, too.
What makes the Spit hating so laughable- Luftwaffles seem unaware their own planes have been spoiled, but think the Spit has been improved. Now Oleg lets them spoil the Spit too, that makes the Russian delta-dervesina high-tec look even better.

The trouble with the Spit is - it really has been a great plane, never needing any of the Oleg's 'Keep-the-sides-even' help. Russian fighters , weighing 3.5 tons to the German 2.5 at the war's beginning, did, though. Why he boosted the quite adequate Russian late war planes heavily, too- that is something to ask Oleg about. Interestingly, La-s have never been hated that much by the Luftwaffe fans as the Spits.

The Bf and the Spit have been designed at roughly the same time, but the Spit has been designed around a 1000 HP engine and the Bf around a 700 HP one. Accordingly, the Bf is quite a bit smaller, and in spite of the genial details like HP automatic slats, the arrival of the powerful DB-600 series engines made the Bf's wing loading much higher than the Spit's, with all the disadvantages it brings.
Once the Spit got the cannon, it steadily held the edge on the Bf. Especially the late and heavily overmotorised Bf-variants suffered badly from the higher powerplant and armament weight and other effects.

I imagine the 4.10 to be the last or one of the last Il2 releases. This sabotage work on the Spit FM seems bent to leave a similarily bad aftertaste in our mouths like on many other occassions of plane FM 'improvements' during the 10 year long history of the game. One weak point of this game surfaces again and again, this time to put the period to the Il2FB story. It's creators couldn't care less about the truth.

[fruitbat]

1, its not as bad as you make out, lateral instability is the only problem.

2, wait until the fix patch. it address the lateral instability, and all is is good in the world again.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

1, its not as bad as you make out, lateral instability is the only problem.

2, wait until the fix patch. it address the lateral instability, and all is is good in the world again.

Well, try climbing vertically until you reach something like 100 km/h, then you 'll see what happens. And mind you, it is exactly at these stall speeds that the Bf behaves very well. It should, too; that is what the HP slats are for.

In 4.09 I used 300 m convergence for the Spit. Can't hit a thing at 250m in 4.10.

You say it s not that bad, lateral stabillity being the only problem. The stability, especially lateral is the worst kind of problem a plane can have.

There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

You clearly do not fully grasp the nature of trim.

It does, in NO way, WHATSOEVER, increase ability to turn. It does not give more elevator throw. It does not make them more effective. It will only ever alter the stick zero-force point.

I realise Il-2s implementation of this is not great, however, a competent pilot will trim as he fights, and pre-empt situations. I suggest you start flying the P-38 to learn how to do that effectively.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

Well, try climbing vertically until you reach something like 100 km/h, then you 'll see what happens. And mind you, it is exactly at these stall speeds that the Bf behaves very well. It should, too; that is what the HP slats are for.

In 4.09 I used 300 m convergence for the Spit. Can't hit a thing at 250m in 4.10.

You say it s not that bad, lateral stabillity being the only problem. The stability, especially lateral is the worst kind of problem a plane can have.

There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

Did you actually even read what i said before you spouted back off.

lateral been fixed in the upcoming fix patch.

+1 on you clearly don't know what trim does.

also, your convergence is to far out. 200m is much better.

[TheDawg]

EASY FIX!
For to put Russian Star on spitfire, all well for fly then!

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

You clearly do not fully grasp the nature of trim.

It does, in NO way, WHATSOEVER, increase ability to turn. It does not give more elevator throw. It does not make them more effective. It will only ever alter the stick zero-force point.

I realise Il-2s implementation of this is not great, however, a competent pilot will trim as he fights, and pre-empt situations. I suggest you start flying the P-38 to learn how to do that effectively.

I bought a X52 more than 3 years ago. The stick has non-contact sensors on the main axes. That makes the use of exponential output tables unnecessary. I use the 10, 20, 30... 100 - linear output.
I found out very soon after that, the trimming is no longer indispensable. Stick forces on a X52 are quite a bit lower than on a P38, you ll agree. Once the jerky character of the exponential output has been removed, I didnt feel a real need for trim. Other, more energy sensitive friends of mine still do.

Trim tabs DO influence the control surface effect in real life, too. Take a look at their picture somewhere; deflecting the control surface, they deflect the airstream in the oposite direction slightly. And more, the trimming has a price in drag, too- no matter if you do it with a tab or the stick. ( It s more with the stick, cause your hand not so steady, etc)

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so. A plane I always trim is the Japanese Ki43- it has a strong nose up tendency, too. Trimming the nose down reduces the maximum upward throw of the elevatror strongly. Shouldn't be like that, but it is.

All that said- the upward trim is a minor problem, compared to the stability of the 4.10 Spit.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Did you actually even read what i said before you spouted back off.

lateral been fixed in the upcoming fix patch.

+1 on you clearly don't know what trim does.

also, your convergence is to far out. 200m is much better.

I certainly read the two sentences you wrote. And I red the 82 items of the list of fixes for the patch. Found no mention of the spit stabillity problem.

From your other forum posts, I suspect you confuse the lateral trim and lateral stability issues here. Lateral (pitch) trim issue is unpleasant only, pushing the nose up all the time. Pitch and yaw stabillity makes the plane wallow around, on the other hand. As for the trim and what it does, I certainly know that better than writing on this forum demands.

As for my convergence ranges-I certainly do not put them on the distance where I cannot hit. On the Tempest it is even 380 m. And am a bad shot compared to some I know

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by TheDawg

EASY FIX!
For to put Russian Star on spitfire, all well for fly then!

Well, I simply take a I16; comes with a star painted on, you know It s real fun to fly, i love it It rolls like lightning, and.. even climbs better then 109F4 Actually, very few F4 survive an encounter

[swiss]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

Stick forces on a X52 are quite a bit lower than on a P38,

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so

No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.