Orcs on the March thread

[Kings Bounty Hunter]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

I suppose. I guess I hate the waiting afterwards. I can try it again, as this one saved game I have has tons of intellect!

But, for the hard battles, dealing 9-10K damage to every single stack still doesn't cut it.

Actually, my Warrior can win the Impossible Battles with smoother end game play, which is what made me so sad that mages couldn't do the smooth game play with no waiting! With the warrior, I would have to intentionally delay finishing the battle just so I can pick up the treasure chests.

I mean, put it this way. I've tried doing the Black Hole Blitz against Scrounger. Did NOT fare so well. Double Pump Geyser, no go either. Pygmy Black Hole... poo.

But, I didn't do the invisible trick though! If I do though, then the raw offense is merely just icing on the cake.

And any battle where the 9-10K damage per stack would have won the battle could have easily been replicated with the Warrior Ranged Army, with zero mana recovery required.

Doesn't sound like you're having much fun lol

Same. I'm finding using the Mage a real grind as direct magic damage isn't oo good atm

Thanks for all the info guys

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Kings Bounty Hunter

Doesn't sound like you're having much fun lol

Same. I'm finding using the Mage a real grind as direct magic damage isn't oo good atm

Thanks for all the info guys

Actually it is really strange. The Mage Summoner build is surprisingly very smooth, in some ways more smooth than a Warrior.

If the enemy has any level 4s, I will almost definitely sheep most of them by the end of the battle. Dual Rune Mages blasting away, at 30% chance to sheep someone, it gets pretty bad for the enemy.

Also, this lets me
a) dig up 3 chests
b) use the 16 rage for 19 mana exchange
c) resurrect units at my leisure

If the enemy has level 5s, I have to blitz the living daylights out of them with my Summons and debuffs. Still doable. If there are dragons, I got the Shield of Reknos (AND there is an Eye of the Dragon, but alas, I can't go back to Debir, stupid quasi-speed runs).

Once the level 5s are down, or under control, I repeat the dig/mana restoration process.

Now, the Warrior builds I do, while they are DEADLY fast in raw combat, leaves far less margin for error.

The problem is, while I obliterate really fast, it leaves far less time to dig up chests and I almost always have to cast Phantom for the Royal Griffins, Turn Back Time, or some Debuff (Pygmy, Helplessness, or Plague!). If I have a breather, I can drop Dragon Dive, but I am almost always pumping the 25 for 25 mana accelerator.

Sometimes I will barely have enough mana to do the resurrection as needed. It really depends. As a mage, it is more of an inconvenience, since my Summoner Mage build almost ALWAYS has max mana after the battle.

See, the warrior can afford to start off with no mana, since Bloodthirst will give him enough rage to start the Mana Accelerator machine again.

That said, it is possible to do direct damage, but it usually requires a nifty trick like Invisible Emerald Green Dragon. Early on though, Black Dragons are great to run around while you do direct damage. I mutated this stategy to have a helpful friend, Ancient Phoenix and his side kick, Dragon fo Chaos though.

In the Wizard Tower, I did a lot of direct damage too. I'm not there with my Summon Army yet, but I don't think they will survive easily.

Oh, as an aside, unlike the Warrior, my particular Mage build seems verry weak against Archdemons.

I'm not looking forward to facing Samman and I ran from the Archdemon stacks in Montero's Caves.

Also, I haven't fought Scrounger in a while since I mentally hit a strange block where I immediately proceed to try to beat the game or give up on my current game due to repetition (or perceived failure in my battle plan). I don't think fighting her will be fun either.

[Minecontrol]

Have you considered Pain Mirror?

The percentage damage returned increases with intellect and (i think) is a low mana spell (10 points) Meaning with higher magic you could cast it twice.

Maybe try sending up a deliberately weak enemy beside the Orc Savages (Veterans) and watch them rip at them. It could be Thorn summons or something... Then painmirror the Orcs. It was a spell i found great use for in KBTL vanilla (against the undead general) i have yet to use it in this game but an ability to return in proportion to the enemy their damage is potentially very useful (especially against high attack enemies like Scrounger's veterans), it's a great equaliser.

In that battle i find if you can stop the brutal melee attackers (the two level 5 stacks and the Orc Veterans) and control the effects of the Gob Shamans, then that is what tips the tide.

[atlatea]

I guess that Scrounger is an exception to all classes, not only mage, most of the time, scrounger need unusual tactic.

Pain mirror also seems to be the bane of archdemon, sometimes pain mirror
is your best friend if you got hit by that halving attack.

Regarding mage,

Well, 8k dmg per turn to all unit is already more than sufficient.

When playing direct damage mage, the damage spells are mean to much much soften your enemies, it's a no brainer opening. Then your unit finish them off. Damage spells won't do 80%-90 % the damage, it usually do 60%-65%, sometimes 70%-75%. It never means to be the winning button, it's just there to help you win. However compared to other mage type, all you do is just blast and blast them first, then do anything you want later, unlike other type of mage, other type of mage need more thinking.

Some suggestion, try most elves unit, it works best with direct damage mage. Your elves will crowd control all your enemies, effectively delaying them while you're having fun dooming them with your mass destruction spells.

Summoner mage have more efficient control to mana, however you still need to think, while damage mage is pure no brainer once you have very high int and the right unit composition.

Main problem with pure summoner mage is they rely heavily on fire damage. Damage mage can deal with any kind of threat. With the right units, it offer more versality in exchange for mana efficiency.

In case of warrior 100% ranged crit, direct damage mage slightly wins in term of resurrecting and damage wise (unless the warrior use goblins) at early turn. However on longer turn, warrior win, because mage will surely run ouf of mana if she keeps casting mass damage spells. But versality once again favor mage.

Why don't try hybrid mage?

I've tried this, mage with very high int, 50-70 ish, minimum is 50, unit is mostly elves and humans, reason? crowd control is caster best friend whether it is mage or paladin, having both summoner and destruction at lv 3, play style is damage spell and summoner, it depends on the situation.

From my experience, it's the most versatile of all mage, and probably the most powerful one. The only downside is you need insane amount of magic crystal

Oh, as an aside, unlike the Warrior, my particular Mage build seems verry weak against Archdemons.

I'm not looking forward to facing Samman and I ran from the Archdemon stacks in Montero's Caves.

Try pain mirror, i was once losing hope againts archdemon in montero caves, then i consider pain mirror as my last resort, and it works, especially if they do halving attack.

Honestly i didn't even think that pain mirror was that useful.

[Minecontrol]

Try pain mirror, i was once losing hope againts archdemon in montero caves, then i consider pain mirror as my last resort, and it works, especially if they do halving attack.

It's especially good against Orc Veterans too because of their massive attack and also their tendency to dodge attacks themselves (but no 'dodging' the spell) normally making disposing of them awkward.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

I guess that Scrounger is an exception to all classes, not only mage, most of the time, scrounger need unusual tactic.

Pain mirror also seems to be the bane of archdemon, sometimes pain mirror
is your best friend if you got hit by that halving attack.

Indeed, pain mirror is loads of fun. With a normal army, I wouldn't mind the usual Pain Mirror, Turn Back Time combo. Just that early on, my army is not that strong. I didn't actually try, I just figured it would be too annoying.

I didn't have Turn Back Time that early on, and I really really didn't feel like casting Phantom non-stop to restore back my Rune Mages or Black Dragons.

I'm not sure if it is a bad bad bad luck roll, but facing about 12 Archdemons in my first visit to Montero is not really easy for me. How the heck did it spawn that...

I can surely wreck it now, but I can't go island hopping for time. I do have to go back, but not sure if it is worth the time lost to hunt for monsters in a cavern.

Originally Posted by atlatea

Some suggestion, try most elves unit, it works best with direct damage mage. Your elves will crowd control all your enemies, effectively delaying them while you're having fun dooming them with your mass destruction spells.

I agree with enough crowd control this can work, although even then, I would almost rather use debuff/buff. With sooo many thorns, and since thorns are sooo low attack rating, helplessness will result in a big damage boost. And ugh, the whole waiting for mana thing afterwards. I hate that.


Pygmy can buff damage by 66%, etc. I can probably 2X the damage of all thorns by casting one 6 mana helplessness.

Originally Posted by atlatea

Summoner mage have more efficient control to mana, however you still need to think, while damage mage is pure no brainer once you have very high int and the right unit composition.

Main problem with pure summoner mage is they rely heavily on fire damage. Damage mage can deal with any kind of threat. With the right units, it offer more versality in exchange for mana efficiency.

Ah, there that's why this new patch changes EVERYTHING for me. Dragon of Chaos, the former, laughable junky summon, makes it verrry possible to roll around with just dragons and rune mages.

Dragon of Chaos does partial astral damage, so he can wreck shop. Oil Mist weakens anti-fire enemies. It is pretty scary. Plague, Helplessness, etc, makes enemy dragons fall easily.

Not to mention, why is it that if you go Summon, you can't go other spells too? I have plenty of other spells, they are just mostly useless.

I would like to think I got better since I last played, but clearly the strategy is much better than I am. Considering I have played the SAME saved game twice, with different agendas (one was going for Demonic 100% Crit, yum), the other going for Dragons/Runes/Ancient Phoenix and Dragon of Chaos, the run with the new Dragon of Chaos is MUCH faster and smoother.

Put it this way, I demolished the last room of the Wizard Tower. Demolished. I was totally shocked. First try, just went in and wiped it all out. I usually have to do some reloads with some funky Phantom Rune Mage action and a few prayers.

Originally Posted by atlatea

In case of warrior 100% ranged crit, direct damage mage slightly wins in term of resurrecting and damage wise (unless the warrior use goblins) at early turn. However on longer turn, warrior win, because mage will surely run ouf of mana if she keeps casting mass damage spells. But versality once again favor mage.

Why don't try hybrid mage?

I've tried this, mage with very high int, 50-70 ish, minimum is 50, unit is mostly elves and humans, reason? crowd control is caster best friend whether it is mage or paladin, having both summoner and destruction at lv 3, play style is damage spell and summoner, it depends on the situation.

From my experience, it's the most versatile of all mage, and probably the most powerful one. The only downside is you need insane amount of magic crystal

Try pain mirror, i was once losing hope againts archdemon in montero caves, then i consider pain mirror as my last resort, and it works, especially if they do halving attack.

Honestly i didn't even think that pain mirror was that useful.

I can do the damage style, it just isn't efficient for me. I just see it as, I can do more damage with less mana, so why would I use the most mana expensive solution?

I only see it as useful if you cannot risk engaging your units directly. ala Solo Black Dragons facing enemy heroes early on and you don't have enough mana for summons.

That's why the summon is so good for me. It engages, damages, and distracts all in one. Battles are much faster for me in real time and in "game time" than if I did my old battling.

The Mage Summoner build has become the analogy of my Warrior Ranged Build (Porc flavored). Very smooth, very powerful. I can most definitely hodge podge other armies up, but <shrugs> I've played this game too many times to do that again.

I suggest you consider looking into the Dragon of Chaos again. The changes they did to him are FANTASTIC.

I used to rely on Phantom a lot in my previous mage games, now I rarely use it.

@Minecontrol
Yeah, I hate fighting orc veterans. I should make an army of units I really hate fighting against, give that AI a taste of his own medicine. I sort of did that with the Porc build, which ended up being a Goblin Fest.

Anyway, that's my next game. Inspired by re-watching Shrek, I want to somehow make Ogres my main unit.

[jake21]

Well as I noted in my 1.3.1 game I have no complete sets just a bunch of partial sets

Originally Posted by Mandea

No, you're absolutely wrong. It's not about which sets it's about completed sets. I'm an engineer, coincidences don't cut it for me especially when I played this game for so long. There is no statistics that confirms what you say.

And besides I dont' get it, is it so hard for you to accept that I may be right, just because you don't get a specific set? THAT is bad luck. Is it so hard to understand the programmers tweaked a little bit the random generator? Diablo 2 had the same problem, they know it and they've already said it's been taken care of (I am referring to Blizzard of course). It definitely has to to do with the patch.

[atlatea]

Indeed, pain mirror is loads of fun. With a normal army, I wouldn't mind the usual Pain Mirror, Turn Back Time combo. Just that early on, my army is not that strong. I didn't actually try, I just figured it would be too annoying.

I didn't have Turn Back Time that early on, and I really really didn't feel like casting Phantom non-stop to restore back my Rune Mages or Black Dragons.

I'm not sure if it is a bad bad bad luck roll, but facing about 12 Archdemons in my first visit to Montero is not really easy for me. How the heck did it spawn that...

I can surely wreck it now, but I can't go island hopping for time. I do have to go back, but not sure if it is worth the time lost to hunt for monsters in a cavern.

Turn back time never really necessary for pain mirror, i never use pain mirror+turn back, though that is one of its combo.

What lv are you at montero? I usually at 30 ish in my first montero loop.

Same case here, i was lv 30 and i faced 30 ogres + 12 archdemons, 1k+ skelies, 150 ish ancient beholders, 300 ish goblin axe thrower at that time, i remember this quite well because it is such a nightmare.

My army was almost the same as you, black dragons, rune mages, paladins, inquisitors, champions.

First turn those archdemon halved my inquisitor, then pain mirror turn the tide. Ogre was kited by black dragons, i had to cast target on paladin because of those pesky hypnotize from beholders, and poison from axe thrower really hurts my pallies. Black dragons, champions, inquisitors and rune mages mop the floor.

Ice wall + dragon wall (with shovel) is my life safer, without both of them, that ogre will surely butcher all my armies.

I agree with enough crowd control this can work, although even then, I would almost rather use debuff/buff. With sooo many thorns, and since thorns are sooo low attack rating, helplessness will result in a big damage boost. And ugh, the whole waiting for mana thing afterwards. I hate that.


Pygmy can buff damage by 66%, etc. I can probably 2X the damage of all thorns by casting one 6 mana helplessness.

If using elves, by using debuff, you'll leave much less room for error, thus you need more thinking, indeed thorns are scary with helplessnes, but the fact is different.

Better criple them with mass spells or summon dragon of chaos, elves doesn't excel at damage, they excel at crowd control, they weren't designed as a good combo for debuffer/buffer mage. This one allow you more room for error, thus less thinking and faster to win (turns needed to win).

Dragon of chaos and phoenix really loves the elves, their crowd control make them live much longer. Phoenix resurection, even if it's very weak, is very useful, because they need little resurection due to crowd control.

Ah, there that's why this new patch changes EVERYTHING for me. Dragon of Chaos, the former, laughable junky summon, makes it verrry possible to roll around with just dragons and rune mages.

Dragon of Chaos does partial astral damage, so he can wreck shop. Oil Mist weakens anti-fire enemies. It is pretty scary. Plague, Helplessness, etc, makes enemy dragons fall easily.

Not to mention, why is it that if you go Summon, you can't go other spells too? I have plenty of other spells, they are just mostly useless.

I would like to think I got better since I last played, but clearly the strategy is much better than I am. Considering I have played the SAME saved game twice, with different agendas (one was going for Demonic 100% Crit, yum), the other going for Dragons/Runes/Ancient Phoenix and Dragon of Chaos, the run with the new Dragon of Chaos is MUCH faster and smoother.

Put it this way, I demolished the last room of the Wizard Tower. Demolished. I was totally shocked. First try, just went in and wiped it all out. I usually have to do some reloads with some funky Phantom Rune Mage action and a few prayers.

I don't know why, it still doesn't work as good againts demons, i'd rather use other units rather than dragon of chaos, i mean i'd rather use other type of damage than partial fire damage. Still the dragon of chaos is indeed a good boost for summoner, he is the best summon in fact.

However, i prefer blasting those demons with mass spells + very high int than summoning dragon of chaos, that mass spells criple those demons much more quickly than dragon of chaos + phoenix combined, well, this is only againts demons though. Againts non demons, it seems that depends on army composition.

I can do the damage style, it just isn't efficient for me. I just see it as, I can do more damage with less mana, so why would I use the most mana expensive solution?

I only see it as useful if you cannot risk engaging your units directly. ala Solo Black Dragons facing enemy heroes early on and you don't have enough mana for summons.

That's why the summon is so good for me. It engages, damages, and distracts all in one. Battles are much faster for me in real time and in "game time" than if I did my old battling.

The Mage Summoner build has become the analogy of my Warrior Ranged Build (Porc flavored). Very smooth, very powerful. I can most definitely hodge podge other armies up, but <shrugs> I've played this game too many times to do that again.

I suggest you consider looking into the Dragon of Chaos again. The changes they did to him are FANTASTIC.

I used to rely on Phantom a lot in my previous mage games, now I rarely use it.

Well, that depends on your army composition.

Dragon of chaos is comparable to geyser/black hole in term of mana cost, ok in fact black hole is slightly higher in term of mana cost. But geyser or black hole does 2x more dmg to all enemies.

I agree, damage mage is used when you don't want to directly engage the enemy, but once again, that depends on your army composition.

Some army composition doesn't directly engage enemies but still do full damage to them. Well, i'm talking about elves crowd control.

Yeah i did try the new dragon of chaos in my new game (using scanner this time), i often used him till i got 65 int, and right now i have 65 int, i don't know why using 1x black hole is more quicker to win the battle than summoning him, almost the same mana consumption.

Basicaly it's like this, geyser/black hole first, then unit do the rest, and they stop them with crowd control whenever necessary.

But i don't know why dragon of chaos or phoenix is a very very good companion to elves user. Elves make them live much much longer, and your mage amelie will rarely need to cast another spell other than summon one of them or both, not to mention elves are one of the best summoner (dryad and druid).

I admit, the new change to summons made mage very fun to play. I just love how those summons work with elves without amelie intervention other than summoning them, thorns, bears, dragon of chaos, phoenix, 4 summons at once, not to mention bears and thorns aren't limited with charges, i guess this is a pure summoner army. I don't use other summoners (rune mage, royal griffin, demonologist etc) because it is best to bring crowd control and tank than using them, well, their summons is also not as strong as dryad/druid with same amount of leadership.

I'm also bored of using dragons (green/red/black).

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

Turn back time never really necessary for pain mirror, i never use pain mirror+turn back, though that is one of its combo.

What lv are you at montero? I usually at 30 ish in my first montero loop.

I don't remember.

True, I just beat Demenion of Verona, 26 arch demons, but it is much easier since I am much higher level now. Also, the higher leadership count for the rune mages makes the phantom resurrection much easier.

Sort of funny, but Pain Mirror didn't do that much for me this time. Mostly because my stacks are so pitifully weak, haha!

I also used the Ice Orb! I can't say it is great, but it helped me kill Driller faster so I tried it in the Demenion battle. I really did not want to do single stack troll to kill driller. It dealt about 5-6K against him, which is much higher than any other summons. I wonder how much damage it will do against Baal from all the way down the field....

Originally Posted by atlatea

Same case here, i was lv 30 and i faced 30 ogres + 12 archdemons, 1k+ skelies, 150 ish ancient beholders, 300 ish goblin axe thrower at that time, i remember this quite well because it is such a nightmare.

My army was almost the same as you, black dragons, rune mages, paladins, inquisitors, champions.

Better criple them with mass spells or summon dragon of chaos, elves doesn't excel at damage, they excel at crowd control, they weren't designed as a good combo for debuffer/buffer mage. This one allow you more room for error, thus less thinking and faster to win (turns needed to win).

True. I think if I had a lot more mana, I would look at it differently. I will happilly re-summon a monster (I have Black dragon wait, so I can re-cast a dying summon, for additional damage, since they can re-act in the same turn!).

I guess because I absolutely hate getting hit, I must make sure I have enough mana to keep re-casting the summons if I need to.

In some battles where there are lots of high priority targets, Black Hole really shines. I agree that it helps a ton there.

In others where I can divide and conquer, I like having a fast way to have my magic "earn it's mana keep". e.g. the Dragon of Chaos will save me the trouble of resurrecting my units often, so it saves me mana and time, plus it can kill stacks... so +10 mana for me!

Originally Posted by atlatea

Dragon of chaos and phoenix really loves the elves, their crowd control make them live much longer. Phoenix resurection, even if it's very weak, is very useful, because they need little resurection due to crowd control.

I don't know why, it still doesn't work as good againts demons, i'd rather use other units rather than dragon of chaos, i mean i'd rather use other type of damage than partial fire damage. Still the dragon of chaos is indeed a good boost for summoner, he is the best summon in fact.

However, i prefer blasting those demons with mass spells + very high int than summoning dragon of chaos, that mass spells criple those demons much more quickly than dragon of chaos + phoenix combined, well, this is only againts demons though. Againts non demons, it seems that depends on army composition.

The reason why my summon build works is because I use dragons which inflict DoT and hurt the enemy morale. Alongside with rune mages which makes sheep, which lets me "shoot through no retaliation" sheep to hit stronger stacks. That's why I illustrate that Oil mist point.

They might take out my ancient phoenix in the first round, but it already did a lot of burning damage. The Dragon of Chaos will do damage while Ancient Phoenix revives.

Basically, as time goes on, the enemy gets exponentially weaker, but my summons are the same attack strength. Summons never lose fighting power as they lose HP, unlike low level stacks which lose tremendous fighting capacity if they lose their numbers. Their high damage to leadership ratio works against them here.

On the same token though, the summons are "strong" but not really damage power houses. My level 5 units aren't really true damage power houses either (few are in comparison). Then again, as a mage, I cannot expect this anyways.

Admittedly, there is a bit of fun in doing the old fashioned flaming arrow and poison skull. I had to actually raise poison skull to level 3 (well I guess I didn't have to), in the Wizard tower to take out that Ogre army on level 4?.

Originally Posted by atlatea

Well, that depends on your army composition.

Yeah i did try the new dragon of chaos in my new game (using scanner this time), i often used him till i got 65 int, and right now i have 65 int, i don't know why using 1x black hole is more quicker to win the battle than summoning him, almost the same mana consumption.

I admit, the new change to summons made mage very fun to play. I just love how those summons work with elves without amelie intervention other than summoning them, thorns, bears, dragon of chaos, phoenix, 4 summons at once, not to mention bears and thorns aren't limited with charges, i guess this is a pure summoner army. I don't use other summoners (rune mage, royal griffin, demonologist etc) because it is best to bring crowd control and tank than using them, well, their summons is also not as strong as dryad/druid with same amount of leadership.

I'm also bored of using dragons (green/red/black).

Yeah it always depends on the army composition!

Well, the summons aren't that super strong in damage. Dragon of Chaos is maybe 2K damage on landing, 3K or so on hit, with shoot through. This is nothing compared to my old warrior 14-19K damage ranged goblins or paladin girl power fairy.

The summons will always last longer if you support them well. In my case, it was dragons, and burning effect lowers numbers every turn, and reduces attack and defense rating due to morale, etc. Oil Mist lowers rating too, etc.

Also, that is why I use both Ancient Phoenix and Dragon of Chaos. Together, they synergize far better than alone. Not suggesting you do it, since you have a real army, whereas I have like 60% of an army, haha.

You have a very strong team to support.

Yeah, Dryads summon a RIDICULOUS number of thorns. Level 3 Summoner Skill and Dryads... a really impressive number indeed. My Paladin Fairy Team was cranking a LOT of thorns. It almost made me want to keep the blackthorne crown.

I think it is a phase. I was sick of Dragons too in the beginning. I decided to re-use them again this game.

I am already planning on an Ogre centric build. Amelie the ShrekMaster.... wait for it!

As one final note to anyone else reading on why we like the Dragon of Chaos, it can solo a lot of weak monsters, no matter what, because if his HP drops below 10%, he will heal back up to 30% when his turn arrives. This is on TOP of his one-time "invincibility". e.g. he can take 9999 damage, but he will always end up with 1 HP. This only works once per casting. If he wins initiative, he will regenerate back 30% HP. Ah so good.

[Kings Bounty Hunter]

Veteran orcs just ran around my trap lol jesus christ give me a break ha ha

direct line to my army and he does that as if he knew the trap was there!

Marvelous