Friday 2010-10-22 Dev. update and Discussion

[Flanker35M]

S!

Blackdog, well said. Nothing to add there. I am used to studying procedures before doing so if SoW would require it, no problem Be it in a later addition or 3rd party work does not matter. I am sure SoW will make us all re-learn quite a bit of things

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

Blackdog, well said. Nothing to add there. I am used to studying procedures before doing so if SoW would require it, no problem Be it in a later addition or 3rd party work does not matter. I am sure SoW will make us all re-learn quite a bit of things

+1

I'm really hoping we must now treat our engine with respect. The pilots notes were written for a very good reason.

[kammo]

Philip.ed and furbs.
You guys realise you sound like a stuck record? I have read a lot of post from you two (maybe hundreds from Philip) and reached the conclusion you are not cabable of a reasonable thinking and therefore I will suggest that you guys will give it a rest. I absolutely mean no harm or try to be disrepectful, honestly. Not trying to say I'm any better than you just a friendly suggestion to make this forum as pleasant as possible.

Nothing wrong about the asking/suggesting stuff but there is some kind of limit of the guestion asked and the way they are asked. This manner and limit is something that each induvidual have figure out themselves. I suggest you go back read your posts and try to think if there is something that you guys could do differen't.

These above are of course my subjective opinions and I could be wrong.

Cheers
Kammo

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

Pablo: the release date there can be whatever, has changed over the years All we need to know is that SoW is now close to be ready

I find this discussion of the realism and what is modelled quite interesting. There is a camp that basically want the fiery furball action with minimal input from themselves, the mediocre that wants some more than just the same old fruball over a certain place of map and then some that could live with all the complexity of the simulator. The last group being propably smallest. I belong to it.

Why? First of all I do NOT challenge Oleg's vision and what he has said, everything due it's time and 3rd party. That was made clear by Oleg. All is just my own views of the issue. For me realism means going all the way, there are no shortcuts because something is not convenient or allegedly fun. I want to learn, challenge my skills to the maximum while I fly the sim. To see if I am up to the challenge! I want the experience reflect something from over 70 years ago, within the limits of a computer game can generate.

It is not being masochist, it all comes from my work! I maintain, repair, arm, refuel, do checks and inspections, change parts and lead a team to get things done within a schedule. And all this happens by following PROCEDURES to the letter, there are NO shortcuts or "I do not want to do it because it is boring or smears my hands". It is 100% by the book and regulations or nothing, you are responsible for the work you do, the pilot depends on your work.

What this has to do with SoW? Well, even I would be the 0.01% minority that enjoys starting the plane all the way, monitor temperatures and pressures, trim, do checks..I would do it! There are pilot manuals out there fairly easily to get and printed. I miss something during the procedures and the sim might punish me with a bad engine performance or even a malfunction. It happened IRL and and they had no REFLY. The manuals are there to make it safer and to make sure you do not cross the limits.

You have to remember that back in WW2 most pilots got training in plane systems(not in super detail, but something) so they would have an idea how the plane works thus giving them some knowledge what could go wrong and where if they abuse the plane or cut corners. SoW models systems and other things in more detail than anything up to date so I expect it to surpass IL-2's very simplified CEM for example. So realism is the only option for me.

Therefore I find it amusing that many just want the "instant action gratification" and realism to a level that only is favorable for them. Even with 100% realism we lack a lot of the work load a real pilot had. Sure a limitation of being a game and lack of equipment(switches, controllers, you name it) but nevertheless with a sound approach doable to make a challenge.

End of rant. I patiently will wait for SoW and see. When finally can double click on it's icon on my desktop I will know how it is done. But I have faith and trust Oleg's vision.

Couldn't agree mor Flanker35M, my thoughts exactly. Well said!

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by kammo

Philip.ed and furbs.
You guys realise you sound like a stuck record? I have read a lot of post from you two (maybe hundreds from Philip) and reached the conclusion you are not cabable of a reasonable thinking and therefore I will suggest that you guys will give it a rest. I absolutely mean no harm or try to be disrepectful, honestly. Not trying to say I'm any better than you just a friendly suggestion to make this forum as pleasant as possible.

Nothing wrong about the asking/suggesting stuff but there is some kind of limit of the guestion asked and the way they are asked. This manner and limit is something that each induvidual have figure out themselves. I suggest you go back read your posts and try to think if there is something that you guys could do differen't.

These above are of course my subjective opinions and I could be wrong.

Cheers
Kammo

I have posted a lot of different questions and Oleg has answered a few of them. Here, I found this website, and considering that topic had moved to terrain, I thought it would be interesting to flag up. If you think I am like a stuck record, put me on block. I am just posting my opinion on what I see and currently what I see doesn't look like summer-time England. That's all.
I agree that I have posted similar things more than once, but it's only for Oleg to read and comment on. He doesn't have to comment, but seeing as though he is posting a lot recently, I thought this might interest him.

I'm not sure how I'm not capable of reasonable thinking. I sent Oleg dozens of research pages for SoW which he was grateful for and has used. If that didn't need reasonable thought, then thank-you for calling me a genius. If you have a problem with me, PM me. But please, don't turn this topic bitchy.
The information I have posted may interest others; it doesn't all revolve around you.

Also, I always try and post pictures as well. We can't help it if we feel a certain way. The terrain is an important feature and we may feel more strongly about it than you. However, others might feel more strongly than us. Obviously we can't please everyone, but then neither can Oleg.
It's interesting to see users, who have in the past moaned at me for saying I don't like the clouds, post and say that they won't buy the game because the clcikable-cockpit element isn't extensive enough for them. Clearly everyone has their own ideas of their ideal sim, and for a sim to reach that it would require unlimited processing power, an infinite amount of graphics cards, and a budget that could wipe Africa's debts. Of course there will be areas that some may feel need more work, but then SoW has the time to develop. The discussions, opinions, research and pictures are here for Oleg to use (if he wishes).

Thankyou.

Back to discussion.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

Its why we plan third party useful tools for the the makers of add-ons. Currently it useful only for us. Becasue we have no time to finalise them for external use before the sim will be out of gate
I was learning experience of MS with third party and get some info what is possible to give and what is not.
There are a lot of contradictions with this... especially due to online gameplay.
Sometime incorrect politics with add-ons may totally destroy the gameplay online.
The goal is to satisfy both sides:
1. these who want totally fair gameplay online with no cheating
2. these that want other set of objects, aircraft, ships, etc...

Trust me for the combat, not for the civil aircraft sim, it is very complex task to develope the code and to satisfy then all groups of interest.

CFS would be more popular with the investment power of MS, but from the beginning they did a lot of mistakes in this area.

In the other hand we can't anymore make everything ourselves - to get 3D from third party, to rework it and then to progam it, like it was with Il-2 series...it was total oveloading of our team. That all should be done on the third party side with the limits that we defining. And limits will be. For some parts - strong, for some - nothing in limit.

There is impossible to compare the MS FS third party development type with the Combat sim additions of third party. The main difference - Combat term, that defining the rules for inclusion in the game some new content by third parties. Gameplay of MS FS and any of combat flight sim is very different and its a problem to go by MS FS experience as a copy.

Exactly...

[kammo]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

I have posted a lot of different questions and Oleg has answered a few of them. Here, I found this website, and considering that topic had moved to terrain, I thought it would be interesting to flag up. If you think I am like a stuck record, put me on block. I am just posting my opinion on what I see and currently what I see doesn't look like summer-time England. That's all.

The reason why I wrote is the repeated questions. Sometimes repeated questions that are allready answered by Oleg. Hence the hars "reasonable thinking" comment. No reason for PM's. Like I said friendly suggestion.

[philip.ed]

OK, that's fine then.
I think that Oleg is onto a winner with what he's shown us terrain wise. My last post was purely to show how England looks from a similar height at a similar time of year The terrain in SoW is WIP, so I think that, paired with his own pictures, the website that I linked to provides quite a good idea of how England looks from an aerial view; particularly the towns as well.

[brando]

I for one am getting tired of these modern photos being held up as something to follow. Haven't you guys any understanding of modern, intensive farming as practiced since the 50s and its enormous effect on the agricultural landscape? Being shown areas where the old hedgerows have been torn out, ponds filled, fields enlarged, roads straightened, modern fertilisers used and arrow-straight hedges laid, is not at all conducive to the developers' understanding of how South-east England looked in the early Forties.

P.S. How many trees were lost in the great storm of 1987?

"The storm caused substantial damage over much of England, downing an estimated 15 million trees....." Wiki. I think that might have changed things a little, views-wise.

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by brando

I for one am getting tired of these modern photos being held up as something to follow. Haven't you guys any understanding of modern, intensive farming as practiced since the 50s and its enormous effect on the agricultural landscape? Being shown areas where the old hedgerows have been torn out, ponds filled, fields enlarged, roads straightened, modern fertilisers used and arrow-straight hedges laid, is not at all conducive to the developers' understanding of how South-east England looked in the early Forties.

I agree. THe pictures, as I said, are just representative of colour, trees and hedges. Take any picture from 1940, and clear rectangular-3D hedges can bee seen which are missing from SoW. The same with colour; grass will look practically the same on a hot stretch of days from this summer, or last summer, vs 1940. The only difference is that the 1940 summer went on for a lot longer than the summer we have just had.
Of course the field patterns are completely different, and new crops like rape have been introduced, but the photos are just there to show the colours and the trees and hedges (I know I'm repeating myself again)

I know how Oleg feels about photos like this, but if he has lived in England when there's been a long stretch of summer days that are very hot (very hot for England I might add) then he's know that the burnished, golden, browns and greens are the norm. This is missing from the SoW shots we've been shown.

PS-so if so many trees were lost, you're saying the game needs more? I doubt SoW will have every-tree modelled that was around in 1940. IMO, it's better to use modern field patterns and road networks (that are known to have existen in 1940) than to just make it up. However a fair amount of original aerial shots from the period exist, and Oleg has used what he can find.
Modern shots are in no way representational of the correct field patterns but they still show how the trees look like from certain heights and also how the colours varies....(debateable, I know)