Whats the best plane for Dog fights?

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by David603

I meant to put Bf109K4 C3, like you said the regular K4 is somewhat lower in performance, and since the only assets a late model Bf109 pilot has are top speed, climb rate, acceleration and to a lesser extent low speed handling, you want to have as much of these attributes as possible.

Of course, your right, the Spitfire IX 25lbs, LA7, Bf109K4 C3 and Fw190D9, along with the Ki-84, are very much the best rides in the sim (although mod users like myself have access to some other aircraft I would put in the same category, ie Spitfire XIV, P51-D, Ta152C, Tempest 13lbs etc), and as such you can expect to come across these aircraft very regularly online, so how your chosen ride copes with these aircraft is very important.

Mustang 3 and P-51D are the 2 best prop pulled fighters of the game. Stock, unmodded game.

Mustang 3 can outrun any prop plane, and outclimbs all but Bf 109 K-4 C3. It easily outturns all 190s and all 109s but the G2, which turns roughly as well. P-51D is not so impressive, but it still has speed advantage(depending on altitude) against almost anything it has to face, outturns all 190s and most 109s, but has better cockpit visibility and armament over the Mustang 3. They are good 1 vs 1, and many vs. many using proper tactics, its a shooting range against just about anything.

The "dogfight" can be more than turning near the stalling speed at 0 altitude.

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

Lol, I tried to dogfight a normal AI who I put in an I16 and couldnt get on his tail for nothing, I had I think my Spitfire....those BI planes turn on a pinhead....they seem to just stop in mid air and flip around.

Yes they are acrobatic, its difficult to kill if they are aware of you. They are slow and not a threat if you have altitude and wants to run, but do not go head on! Sometimes they fire at very large distances and smoke your engine or gives pk.

I usually dogfight spits with stukas, at low speeds they are evil ehehehe. Problem is the lack of powerfull ammunition. Stuka gunner sucks too.

[David603]

Originally Posted by Erkki

Mustang 3 and P-51D are the 2 best prop pulled fighters of the game. Stock, unmodded game.

Mustang 3 can outrun any prop plane, and outclimbs all but Bf 109 K-4 C3. It easily outturns all 190s and all 109s but the G2, which turns roughly as well. P-51D is not so impressive, but it still has speed advantage(depending on altitude) against almost anything it has to face, outturns all 190s and most 109s, but has better cockpit visibility and armament over the Mustang 3. They are good 1 vs 1, and many vs. many using proper tactics, its a shooting range against just about anything.

The "dogfight" can be more than turning near the stalling speed at 0 altitude.

Of course, otherwise I would have a very low opinion of the Fw190

I'd forgotten the Mustang III was a stock aircraft, but in any case it does not outclimb the Spitfire IX 25lbs, and the Fw190D9, LA7 and Ki-84 are all very close in performance, and some even outclimb it at certain altitudes.

Sure, its fast and more agile than the late war German fighters, but the armament of 4x.50cals are barely adequate at best, and inadequate to stand any real chance of getting snapshots on the tough Dora 9 and Bf109G-K models.

In the right hands the Mustang III or P51D can be very effective, but its not as overwhelmingly powerful as you have suggested.

For the sake of the P51 pilots its perhaps just as well they don't have to face the Spitfire 25lbs and the even more deadly Spitfire XIV, which I would rate as a superior fighter to any Mustang in either modded or unmodded versions of Il2.

[Erkki]

A properly trained WW2 aviator was the "right hands". Or a good il2 pilot who actually thinks about survival, and knows team tactics(further than flying as just a pair). It has only adequate guns yep, but they are more than enough. Flown with some brains, it doesnt have to let anyone in the guns range, unless if bounced at low altitude.

I dont know how "the mods" model the Spitfire XIV, as far as I know, it traded some qualities for the low and medium altitude speed it gained with the Griffon engine...

The Spit IXc 25lbs is crap above medium alts too. HF IXe is usually much more useful.

[rakinroll]

Originally Posted by David603

A Fw190 of any type caught in a defensive position by a fighter like a Spitfire IX will almost certainly be destroyed, barring having a lot of altitude to dive away or interference from friendly aircraft.

Not that the Fw190 can't be a very effective fighter, but it bleeds energy very rapidly when forced into defensive manoeuvres, and lacks the energy building potential and low-medium speed manoeuvrability that some of the other top range fighters like the Spitfire IX 25lbs, LA7 or Bf109K4 have.

For me, you are totally wrong mate. FW-190A-8 can be a good fighter at low level in the hand of a good pilot. The key lies in the rolling skill of pilot.

[Qpassa]

IMHO Spitfire 25lbs

[David603]

Originally Posted by Erkki

A properly trained WW2 aviator was the "right hands". Or a good il2 pilot who actually thinks about survival, and knows team tactics(further than flying as just a pair). It has only adequate guns yep, but they are more than enough. Flown with some brains, it doesnt have to let anyone in the guns range, unless if bounced at low altitude.

The Mustang does indeed work well when flown in groups, using the proper tactics, and I would agree that a properly trained WWII fighter pilot or experienced Il2 pilot are the "right hands".

However, it is not invulnerable. A couple of years back I flew a Dora 9 as wingman to a friend of mine (I've since gone on to flying first 109s and then Spitfires), and our preferred tactics were to get a good deal of altitude and then go looking for the P51s that fly above dogfights and make diving passes on the dogfighting planes bellow, before using their speed and the cover provided by other Mustangs using the same tactics to avoid retribution.

We in turn would use the same technique to kill the Mustangs, but instead of trying to climb clear after one pass we would keep diving, while looking for other targets, then both leave the fight in a pre-arranged direction so we could cover each other in case one or other had been followed down by a Mustang. Using these tactics we on occasion racked up as many as 10 kills between us in a sortie, while remaining almost invulnerable. None of the dogfighting aircraft or the Mustangs could ever touch us while we were diving, and when one of us was followed down by a Mustang, the pilot generally wasn't expecting to be hit by the other Dora which would be travelling at a huge speed very low to the deck.

Originally Posted by Erkki

I dont know how "the mods" model the Spitfire XIV, as far as I know, it traded some qualities for the low and medium altitude speed it gained with the Griffon engine...

The Spit IXc 25lbs is crap above medium alts too. HF IXe is usually much more useful.

The Spitfire XIV as modded performs very much as you would expect the real thing to do. The version modelled is the 18lbs boost version, so it is slightly slower than the later 21lbs version, but it is still about 30mph faster than the HF MkIX at any altitude, which is very useful, while being slightly faster in a climb at most altitudes. Turn rate suffers because of the greater weight, but not so much that it isn't one of the best turning late war fighters. The increased torque makes control at low airspeeds harder, but it is still a pleasant aircraft to fly.

Compared to the Spitfire 25lbs it is only slightly faster at low altitude, so down low the more manoeuvrable IX 25lbs would probably be the better choice, but up high the XIV is hugely superior and remains on par for speed with even the P51, although slower than the Mustang III down low. Having the 21lbs version of the XIV would go someway to making up this speed deficiency.

As far as which is the most usable Spitfire in stock Il2, this in my opinion would be the LF IX. Given that it has the performance figures of an F IX, even down to the different supercharger ratios kicking in at the correct altitude for the Merlin 63 instead of the Merlin 66, it is the best allrounder, and is faster than the HF IX up to 21,000ft. It also comes with a better choice of wing types and armaments.

Originally Posted by rakinroll

For me, you are totally wrong mate. FW-190A-8 can be a good fighter at low level in the hand of a good pilot. The key lies in the rolling skill of pilot.

Did I ever say the Fw190A was not a good low level fighter in the hands of a good pilot?

I'm sure you will agree however, that part of being a good pilot of any Fw190 is not getting caught at an E disadvantage by pilots of more manouverable fighters.

[rakinroll]

Originally Posted by David603

Did I ever say the Fw190A was not a good low level fighter in the hands of a good pilot?

I'm sure you will agree however, that part of being a good pilot of any Fw190 is not getting caught at an E disadvantage by pilots of more manouverable fighters.

Thats what i am not agree with you. You do not need E for fight low level fight. A good pilot knows how to handle that slowcoach plane at low speed. But plus E gives extremely advantages as you said.

[bf-110]

J2M and N1K1 looks very nice at dogfight,don´t seem to be troublesome.
I don´t really like dogfighting with the FW-190 and F4U,both can dangerously stall with minimun damage.A single microscopic hole in F4U wings can make it spin wildly.

Mosquito is also a great fighter,even for a two engined plane.You can shoot down Bf-109Es with it.

For earlier planes and biplanes,the best one is CR-42.People say the SAFAT guns are horrible,but it can snap parts of even strong planes like the I-16.
The I-16 is good too,good handling (but doesn´t spin like the FW-190),can endure a good amount of damage and the guns are neat.