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  #1  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:16 PM
IceFire IceFire is offline
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Originally Posted by K_Freddie View Post
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The AI still can see through its engine cowling... Beside the crazy aerobatic dances that no ordinary pilot would ever do once in his lifetime... try this.

Go into a tight turn with the AI on your six.. keep your turn until the AI does it's stupid 'dance'. At this point it cannot see you - you then change your direction slightly... the AI immediately stops it's dancing, realigns then dances again for the next shot - way to go !!.

Besides that I'm sure the FMs have been badly fudged.. I mean really bad.
The Spit seems to be able to turn on a tickey without any blackout.. then blackouts with no apparent reason ??

Plenty work to be done here.. don't be biased - just do it as it is/should be ?
Doing AI work is tricky... that said the AI does not see through their cowling anymore. They used to but not anymore. Now they make a guess as to where you are and estimate for blind shooting just as a human would do. I think they still have to cheat a bit with regards to some levels of awareness and target acquisition. It's difficult because you can make the ultimate game AI but only be able to run a few of them at a time due to the CPU cycles required or you can find a balance point with some fidelity issues and be able to run the dozens of AI that are required to make this look good.
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  #2  
Old 09-29-2012, 10:49 PM
K_Freddie K_Freddie is offline
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I think they still have to cheat a bit with regards to some levels of awareness and target acquisition.
It seems so as every time they know exactly where to 'blind' shoot with a combination of all control surfaces, nearly a 100% of the time, which is an impossibility for any human, hence AI

Not only that.. with all the control surface agitation the AI still maintains a superior speed advantage.

I've practised my skills with the ace AI for years, but have never seen anything like this... it's like chalk and cheese. As I said .. a BIG AI fudge has occurred.

One doesn't mind the ability to 'lead shoot', but the ability to place the a/c in any 3D position without 'costs'... is a bit much. This in not coming from a noob.. it's coming from a 4000hr plus on FW190s sim person.

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  #3  
Old 09-30-2012, 01:35 AM
Luno13 Luno13 is offline
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I'm not sure whether HSFX6 has anything to do with it... but the AI behaved the same before the mod
If you're running a mod, it's not DT's problem. Simple as that.

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I've been at the game just as long, if not years longer than yourself.. and know the nuances of the versions.
It doesn't matter how long you've been here (and I have to wonder how you can claim that you've been here longer when you don't know anything about me). You won't know any of the 'nuances' until you've programmed it yourself.

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People complained about the AI before TD.. see it now
You really think their AI is worse? And I'm supposed to believe that you know the 'nuances'? Psh.
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  #4  
Old 09-30-2012, 04:09 AM
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CWMV CWMV is offline
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That would be my only gripe about the AI, make them adhere to the same AI as the player.
Other than that its much much better than before.
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Just fix the friggin thing you boof heads. It's getting boring now. Only 11 people on the whole thing. Yawn.
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  #5  
Old 09-30-2012, 04:34 PM
IceFire IceFire is offline
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Originally Posted by K_Freddie View Post
It seems so as every time they know exactly where to 'blind' shoot with a combination of all control surfaces, nearly a 100% of the time, which is an impossibility for any human, hence AI

Not only that.. with all the control surface agitation the AI still maintains a superior speed advantage.

I've practised my skills with the ace AI for years, but have never seen anything like this... it's like chalk and cheese. As I said .. a BIG AI fudge has occurred.

One doesn't mind the ability to 'lead shoot', but the ability to place the a/c in any 3D position without 'costs'... is a bit much. This in not coming from a noob.. it's coming from a 4000hr plus on FW190s sim person.

I'm trying to visualize the problems and I'm not 100% sure what I'm expecting to see. Do you have any tracks recorded that illustrate what's going on? I'd like to see... if you can point out the timecode when weird things are happening that would be even more useful.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:07 PM
Bearcat Bearcat is offline
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I thought that the ace AI would be more realistic if a slight delay was introduced between the time you moved your controls and the AI reacted to it. Not much but enough to make it seem like they had to look at what you are doing and move their own controls during a fight.
AI react on your plane attitude not on your control inputs.
That is good to know ...

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Lastly I notice that the Ace AI should be a lot more effective than they are but for some reason when they are on the tail of an opponent or target they take extra time to do some redundant and useless barrel rolls etc.. This may help them foil certain tailgunners, but when they are on the tail of an enemy fighter aircraft all it does is wastes their energy and a lot of opportunities to make shots.
That's not intended behavior, we will fix it when we find exact cause for this.
That is good to know as well and hopefully will probably address the issues I raised with the friendly AI

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When fighting the Ace AI in the original IL2 a combination of their behavior and the vastly different flight/weapon models compared to IL246 makes it as interesting a challenge as ever. I would definitely say that IL246 is far better than the original IL2, but that there may be a few things worth looking at in the original IL2 AI etc. that might offer a useful perspective.
I don't know about that .. I think the 1946 AI is much better overall than the original IL2 AI.. in every way..

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Just like a chess master playing a computer, it would be intriguing to see if within the limits of the IL2 flight models and hard settings, how tough the AI could be made.
It took purpose built monster machine to beat human champion in chess. Chess is great game but you always have same position at the start. Same number and type of pieces. Movement is limited on 8x8 board. Compare that with Il2, 300+ planes, combinations of types, numbers and positions are infinite. And you want AI to make decisions in a fraction of a second. This is hard task for AI.
I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..

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Originally Posted by RegRag1977 View Post
As you said it seems that AI has trouble seeing player's dot after a 5km distance, AI ace often seeming to see player at the very last moment which makes it lose a great part of its maneuvrablity advantage (vs Luftwaffe types, for instance). I think this is why AI doesn't follow the climb...just a theory though...
That is correct.
Another good to know..

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Another thing, when head on La7 rarely fires at player, and when does very often misses, while player wont miss and will score (fatal wing or engine) hits: to me AI ace aiming should be far more accurate especially head on.
What to do now, some says AI shoots too good and some says it is too bad? No way to please everybody.
I dunno about that one either.. I don't do too many headons with ace AI .. I usually loose no matter what they are flying.


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The AI in a historical combat flight sim should represent the skill level of a human who has limited experience, training, and has emotions such as fear.

Humans online have way more experience in gunnery and maneuvering than any of the top WWII aces and and make maneuvers without feeling strain on their bodies, or with fears of death.
I'm afraid that we must make compromise here and make AI bit better than historical. IMO using Rookies and Average AI for the most part and some Veterans and Aces in historical missions provides good approximation of WWII skill level.
I agree 100%. This is exactly my take and what I do when I made missions ..

Last edited by Bearcat; 09-30-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-30-2012, 06:36 PM
Luno13 Luno13 is offline
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Thanks for the Q & A, FC!
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  #8  
Old 10-02-2012, 09:44 PM
Stig1207 Stig1207 is offline
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I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..


Hitting the nail on the head. The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

Stig
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  #9  
Old 10-03-2012, 01:26 PM
SPAD-1949 SPAD-1949 is offline
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Default AI differences over the last versions

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Originally Posted by Stig1207 View Post
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I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..


Hitting the nail on the head. The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

Stig
Well I saw a big difference in AI behaviour between 4.10 and 4.11
With 4.10 enemy AI was extremely agressive and there was little chance surviving a 4 vs 4 fighter encounter where all were set ace. Usually you were killed within seconds from a headon sniper shot, less then 5 rounds necessary. Also friendly AI were agressive and you stood little chance staying in formation when heading towards the enemy.

With 4.11 evrything seems a little to sissy. Your flight leader avoids the encounter, enemy AI lost lots of agressivity.
I added a simple fighter mission where it was immediately to be seen. Try it in 4.09, 4.10 and 4.11 and you will easyly recognize the differences.
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  #10  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:09 PM
K_Freddie K_Freddie is offline
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Control surface positions...
I'm not sure how the AI is modelled but in this pic the rudder and elevator positions are at max = instant violent stall.... Not so with the AI.
These positions are held throughout the turn.... Also
Doing a lot of crimea quickies... The Spit AI can do the most amazing turns and not black out, then while doing a mild turn just flies into the ground.
I'm beginning to enjoy pre-modded IL2 more
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