SoWC:BoB Multisquad Campaign Starting

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Robo.

So far, it has not been a Battle of Britain at all, it was more like ATAG punchup minus the AI bombers.

Can you make any suggestions as to how it could be more like BoB? We are always open to suggestions.

There were 24 Stuka in Total. Spread over 4 targets. They broke up on the approach toward folkstone, 6 for each airfield and 3 for each radar.


The most important thing for me and my small team is that people ARE enjoying it and I think you will enjoy it more as it goes on, especially with some of the raids we have picked. When people give us thanks it makes it worth all the hours in FMB and scripting, forum stuff and general tedium. So thanks for the thanks!

S!

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

The most important thing for me and my small team is that people ARE enjoying it and I think you will enjoy it more as it goes on, especially with some of the raids we have picked. When people give us thanks it makes it worth all the hours in FMB and scripting, forum stuff and general tedium. So thanks for the thanks!

S! mate. I am very much aware of that and it's really really appreciated. I can imagine how much effort it takes to keep things running etc. I am also aware that you can't please everyone and I am the last one to complain - as I said perhaps slightly bigger scale than last time, e.g. some medium bombers raids. (I take it it was just quieter day with fighters on Free Hunt and some Stukas the other day.) I know this is due to performance issues and there is no way around. We're at Mission 4 only and I just wait and enjoy. With few more missions, we'll know more and I will certainly give you some more specific feedback. So far just thanks for your work chaps, see you on Sunday

[klem]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Can you make any suggestions as to how it could be more like BoB? We are always open to suggestions.

There were 24 Stuka in Total. Spread over 4 targets. They broke up on the approach toward folkstone, 6 for each airfield and 3 for each radar.


The most important thing for me and my small team is that people ARE enjoying it and I think you will enjoy it more as it goes on, especially with some of the raids we have picked. When people give us thanks it makes it worth all the hours in FMB and scripting, forum stuff and general tedium. So thanks for the thanks!

S!

Thanks for considering our requests Farber and giving us the SpitIIa. As far as a/c are concerned the real gripe was that they did not have a chance against 109s due to the FMs. The SpitIIa should help there and I accept what you say about the Hurricane. Its just that I was thinking in terms of relative a/c performance, the a/c being our tools, rather than what they looked like. OK so we stay with the Hurricane and a couple of us are testing the 87 octane version (I already did the 100) to see which would be better as the 100 octane is well below RL performance and does not have Boost Override Cutout working.

We are managing the a/c allocation numbers by assigning them to specific squads as you listed in a previous post. Generally it works out OK, we don't exceed the allocated numbers but the Spitfire %age was a little high on Sunday due to turnout. Its just that when we pulled up the on-screen stats it seemed the blues were flying almost entirely E4s. I am sure there were more than the 9 E4s listed in your a/c allocation table so perhaps you could look at logs etc to see and if so have a word with the unit commanders.

With 24 stukas breaking up into several groups plus Do17s and attacking 4 targets we have to accept that we cannot intercept every raid. With Hurricanes attacking bombers and Spitfires trying to cover them we would be limited to intercepting 3 raids. We could of course throw one squad at each raid we find and risk the 109s (if we can find all the raids) and that is what tended to happen on Sunday more by luck than judgement, there was no time for niceties like Spits coming to the help of Hurricanes when they were already engaged so after our a/c got engaged with 109s or Stukas and had used there ammo it was inevitable that 109s that had not been engaged would have ammo to slaughter the remaining red aircraft they found. We have the unfortunate problem of trying to deal with 24 Stukas plus ? Do17s that went to Gravesend plus up to 40 109s (probably around 30 on the night?). That's ok as the RAF were heavily outnumbered in the BoB but it does mean that our neutered Hurricanes are going to die wholesale once their ammo is gone and without a FM to give them a fighting chance.

One question regarding "being like the BoB". Would the 109s have stayed around to feed off the empty Hurris and Spits or would many of them have withdrawn to cover the retiring bombers? Also, how are you guys finding the fuel issue, as I alway understood the endurance of the 109 to be a little over an hour with about 20 minutes over England? I think we were in the air for over an hour and 109s were still over our coast knocking down our aircraft.

EDIT: I meant to say that you are destroying Radar easily but in fact it was very hard to destroy even when undefended. It was bady damaged on 12th August when the radar stations were a main priority but as they came back on air again on the 13th I understand that the major anti-radar operation of 12 August was not repeated. A few days later, Göring is said to have stated,
“It is doubtful whether there is any point in continuing the attacks on radar sites, in view of the fact that not one of those attacked has so far been put out of action.”
Any further radar attacks failed to make significant damage to the radar system. I wonder if your future radar attacks should be severely restricted or perhaps even stopped as in RL they were ineffective whilst in CoD they are too easy to destroy.

[David198502]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Hey David, as a Hurricane pilot I'd like to say I am quite used to what we can do and what we can not do. There SHOULD be more Hurricanes than SPitfires. The way I see it this campaign is just starting and there are some teething problems. So far, it has not been a Battle of Britain at all, it was more like ATAG punchup minus the AI bombers. I don't know how many Stukas have attacked and how high they flew over the Channel as we were not involved in the defensive battle with the 87s, we have only seen a few 109, but it was alright for the 3rd mission only. I hope with the suggestions made there will be improvement (especially with the Radar). The other thing is that it's impossible to please everybody and I'd like to thank the creators for trying.

I strongly object against replacing Spitfire marks or Hurris for Spits - FMs are what they are, let's keep calm and carry on guys!

For myself personally I'd like to see more realistic (and usable) radar, some BofB raids with fighters in escort duties, more probable mix of Emil variants (e.g. more E-1s for this time of the year) and people flying with default (historical) loadouts.

Keep up the good work, see you next Sunday.

I will do the next time....ill definitely fly the E1 on sunday with a historical loadout...Pitti and me found a historical loadout, which is working surprisingly well!its really fun to fly the E1 now for me, so i have no problems to be one of the E1 pilots!

to Farber,...24Stukas? is it really that hard for the game/server to handle more of them?i ask because sometimes iam hosting a mission in the Lobby, where 60+ AI aircraft are in the air constantly.its a script, where submissions will load randomly into the main mission with AI flights.the script is written, that after a certain amount of planes has spawned, the submissions will stop to be loaded.when some aircrafts despawn after landing or get destroyed, and the total number of planes drop below the limit, then the submissions will start to get loaded again...this way, in the main mission there are 60+AI aircraft in the air constantly, and besides some stutters when another submission gets loaded, the game runs smooth...
and mind this was hosted from my weak machine...so i would think that a real server wouldnt have that much problems with 60 AI aircraft in the air??

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by David198502

I will do the next time....ill definitely fly the E1 on sunday with a historical loadout...Pitti and me found a historical loadout, which is working surprisingly well!its really fun to fly the E1 now for me, so i have no problems to be one of the E1 pilots!

to Farber,...24Stukas? is it really that hard for the game/server to handle more of them?i ask because sometimes iam hosting a mission in the Lobby, where 60+ AI aircraft are in the air constantly.its a script, where submissions will load randomly into the main mission with AI flights.the script is written, that after a certain amount of planes has spawned, the submissions will stop to be loaded.when some aircrafts despawn after landing or get destroyed, and the total number of planes drop below the limit, then the submissions will start to get loaded again...this way, in the main mission there are 60+AI aircraft in the air constantly, and besides some stutters when another submission gets loaded, the game runs smooth...
and mind this was hosted from my weak machine...so i would think that a real server wouldnt have that much problems with 60 AI aircraft in the air??

The servers aren't the problem. Hosting on your own machine, I'm assuming from in-game/through the FMB, isn't comparable to running it through dserver. The netcode is the problem. You can fly around with 1000AI all by yourself without much of a hickup (if you have the machine for it) Add other players in the mix + AI = disaster in cliff's current state. Heck, players alone cause disaster to servers. Our server barely uses 7% of the cpu to run cliffs when it's full, let alone empty.

Until the game is fixed, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

[David198502]

yeah but i was playing the mission online with my squadmates!
though you are right, i noticed that the mission ran more fluid when i tested it on my own...when my mates joined, i had to reduce the number of AI flights to 60.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by David198502

yeah but i was playing the mission online with my squadmates!
though you are right, i noticed that the mission ran more fluid when i tested it on my own...when my mates joined, i had to reduce the number of AI flights to 60.

Define online? Were you running the game through the lobby or did you run it through the dserver/dos box? There's a huge difference.

Edit: And when I mean players - I mean at least 20+. You won't see network problems or the problems caused by net code until you have a bunch of people causing bandwidth flow - aka net code.

[David198502]

well read my post again

[notafinger!]

Originally Posted by klem

We are managing the a/c allocation numbers by assigning them to specific squads as you listed in a previous post. Generally it works out OK, we don't exceed the allocated numbers but the Spitfire %age was a little high on Sunday due to turnout. Its just that when we pulled up the on-screen stats it seemed the blues were flying almost entirely E4s. I am sure there were more than the 9 E4s listed in your a/c allocation table so perhaps you could look at logs etc to see and if so have a word with the unit commanders.

Klem, the table Farber posted showing ~10 E4's was from mission 1 based in July where E4's made up roughly 20% of Bf 109 strength. We just finished mission 3 in the August time frame where E4's account for 52% of aircraft strength. As Farber said the numbers were set for a full team but when everyone doesn't show of course the E4's are taken first. One remedy I would propose would be removal of the mine shell. IMO it is probably over-modeled compared to the other 20mm rounds available and causes Hurricanes to just fall apart. I think that would make red a little less concerned about the E4 numbers but I don't think it could be enforced server side, just a gentleman's agreement to remove it from our E4 loadouts. At the very least I think it's something we could try for at least one mission.

Originally Posted by klem

One question regarding "being like the BoB". Would the 109s have stayed around to feed off the empty Hurris and Spits or would many of them have withdrawn to cover the retiring bombers? Also, how are you guys finding the fuel issue, as I alway understood the endurance of the 109 to be a little over an hour with about 20 minutes over England? I think we were in the air for over an hour and 109s were still over our coast knocking down our aircraft.

Regarding 109 tactics, the Jagdwaffe's mission was to destroy Fighter Command. As long as there are RAF fighters airborne and the Bf 109's have fuel/ammo to engage I think it's safe to assume they would. It was a tactic of the Germans to send in a low level sweep after a raid to try and catch planes being refueled/rearmed and there were some successes doing that. It might be worth considering holding back a few fighters to cover your force after they disengage from the bombers.

Fuel with the Bf 109 was really only a concern when they were going to areas around London and they had to fly close escort and spent hours zigzagging behind the slower cruising bombers. Also, remember Park did not like big wings. He preferred to throw his squadrons at the bombers piece meal which peeled off the escorts layer by layer like an onion. This meant the Bf 109's were almost constantly engaged over England which really drains the tanks quickly. Personally, last mission I took 100% fuel, climbed to 6k, cruised between Dover and Littlestone, and then engaged RAF over Hawkinge for maybe 20-30 minutes. I returned home with less than 25% remaining. As the fighting moves closer to London I think you'll see fuel become a bigger issue for the Bf 109's.

[Osprey]

I said I wouldn't post but since it is campaign I will. I just wanted to make the point that although I helped with the radar, and Farber quotes correctly, I did protest about having it destroyed because that is just complete balls. It actually makes me reluctant to even use it because I know how easy it is to destroy, and to make matters worse I learn today that the mission sends 3 AI to each site to do the job - it's just not possible to stop it's destruction at all. To put it in perspective, ACG run the events of August 12th on our server which is all about the radar attacks, we scale it down to just 20% of the actual aircraft in the raids but there are still 9 Ju88's coming across to hit Ventnor alone. Germany brought it down for about 2 hours at great cost, and that was because a single bomb had hit one of the electrical supply thingies. 2 hours was because GB had mobile RDF trucks which could be moved to plug gaps. After the Ventnor attack Georing sent a Stuka raid into the Thames Estuary following reports from Erpo210 that they were successful, and that was massacred by No.501 from Gravesend. It is then that Georing started to rethink about tackling RDF. Since the radar was hit then on Sunday then 501 had no idea that Do-17's were inbound to Gravesend, which is a great shame because we were covering that area until vectored to the Stuka attack, and we arrived too late, only to meet 109's milling about, dominating of course, you'd have to be a bad flyer not to with these FM's.

Regarding the number of E4's and Spitfires. Do you have the actual figures Farber? Only I saw about 90% E4's - it's not as if they even need then given the advantage the 109 has atm.
I don't buy the 'availability' argument I'm afraid, squadrons should have a percentage or you tell squadrons what to take. It's poor form to just take it and say that so and so isn't here so I will take his better plane. The RAF work this out as a group and aim for a 2/3rds Hurricane split, we can't be entirely accurate because we aren't mixing types in a single flight though.

Also, you mentioned altitude, well Stuka's dive from 3km+ and that's not very high, they are our targets, and then they get low. I would recommend 4km+ level bombers coming in at a target in waves, we're all more likely to get a shot then, and we should be at a better operating alt (probably not though with this junk FM!).

Positively I enjoyed our flight out as a group and we learned some lessons from it as a group, it was interesting training. Haven't seen a single bomber yet though.