Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

Those who doubt the Previous Posting

Their arguments seem to be based on the following

The Phrase the Units concerned and Certain Units

It’s my belief that these words were used to refer to bases/units which had not yet been converted to 100 Octane.

Yes it's your belief and it's supported by nothing and specifically disproven by the documents you supplied yourself. These papers discuss in great lenght and express specifically that 100 octane is not meant for all stations, and specifically dismiss the suggestion to have only 100 octane at those stations which do not require it.

Originally Posted by Glider

We know that the roll out had already started, as proved by the Station / Combat reports we have from February 1940. This view is supported I believe by:-

• The total lack of any conversion records of any FC station or squadron after May 1940 which were checked until May/June 1941

'Which were checked' seem to be keyword here. You checked but a handful of reports but mislead everyone here that there's no trace. The truth is you haven't checked it in a manner that would justify such claims.

The belief is expressed by some that the use of Certain or concerned proves that the roll out was limited and some have said that this is clearly a continuation of the pre war Feb 1939 plan.

Which it is, all the papers you have supplied follow exactly the schedule laid down by the March 1939 plan. Absolutely no indiciation or evidence have been presented that the plan was overidden at any time.

And certain means what it means.

We have the 21 stations identified as being in the first instance, clearly there was going to be a second instance, clearly this is more than 16 Squadrons.

Nope, these 21 stations you keep mentioning from the December 1939 letters by FC are merely a list of stations where RAF FC would have liked to have 100 octane fuel.

You have supplied no evidence that these 21 stations were approved for 100 octane issues nor that 100 octane was actually issued to them.

There is absolutely no evidence that says that the roll out was limited.

In other words, you have absolutely no information or evidence to the extent of the roll out, or that it was unlimited, and you merely keep ignoring and dismissing every paper that specifically note that it was limited as 'pre-war plans' and 'mis-types'.

As a minimum the Oil Co ordination committee would have been involved as they were responsible for the purchase, storage and distribution of all fuel.
Those who believe this to be the case are invited to provide some evidence. I have stated what I believe to be the definition of Certain and Concerned with what evidence I can find. Its not perfect but I have tried and have shown what I found. I invite the doubters to do the same

Here's the definition of 'certain' for you:

pronoun
(certain of)
some but not all:
certain of his works have been edited

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...tain?q=certain

Pips Views
This paper has never been seen but more importantly there is no evidence to support any of the statements made in it. The War Cabinet didn’t make the decisions he said it did.

We have discussed this. To put it bluntly, your claims about checking the War Cabinet decisions was a lie.

There was no shortage of 100 Octane, nothing. Again those who believe this view are encouraged to find some evidence to support any part of it.

This is a nice strawman argument. Nobody claimed that the there was a shortage of 100 octane stocks, however there were uncertainities with consistent supplies, partly due to U-boot activity and partly due to dependence on US manufacturers, their capacity and willingness; this is clearly noted by a dozen British historians like Morgan and Shacklady or the official studies. You ignore them all.

Pips Didn’t Mean the War Cabinet
This view that the War Cabinet was actually a much bigger thing with hundreds of component parts is fanciful. The War Cabinet was the War Cabinet, it had a structure, it had members, it had minutes and it was chaired by the Prime Minister. A lot of parties reported to it, including the Air Ministry and the Oil Committee, but the War Cabinet was the War Cabinet and the minutes are available on line.
People who believe this are invited to find out who made these decisions, it wasn’t the Air Ministry and it wasn’t the War Cabinet.

You keep repeating this obvious nonsense. On one hand you claim the War Cabinet was one single body, and then you contradict yourself that 'a lot of parties reported to it'. The nonsense Glider repeats is that the War Cabinet had no Committes, and then he names the Oil Committee of the War Cabinet.

Committees are smaller cells of the Cabinet, and Glider hadn't checked these, but claims he has done so. Further information at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/r...fice.htm#17741

Pilots Notes I and IIB
This has been done in some detail recently. The only thing I can add is that I would expect to find Spit I Pilots notes to have 100 octane and 87 Octane because:-
a) it was in service before 100 Octane was available
b) Spit I’s were in the training Units and they didn’t have 100 Octane

I am curious of the evidence of the claims made in b). So which 'training units' had Spitfire Is and from where do you take they had no 100 octane fuel? Have you seen a document about it? A paper? A list of which units have 100 octane and which didn't?

Important Note
I invite anyone to look at the evidence put forward to support each side of the case and make their own minds up

Well to cut the long story short, the only definitive evidence you have provided is that 100 octane was used by about 30 Squadrons out of 60, or about 20 Stations out of 50.

And that is just that, about 1/3 to 1/2 the units, so quite simply there's no factual basis, or evidence to, that all the others were using 100 octane. It's merely a wishful assumption.