Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

I quoted the exact title of the book elsewhere (sry not with me as for now). It's one of the RR heritage trust. It's a study extracted from RR sources and internal documentation.

As I said, this small book written in 1941 explain why RR had to create new methods to predict the perf of a S/C Engine at alt due to the divergences of predicted perf and the real ones achieved during flight test. The authors were the very same guys conducting the work at the time.

It is also explained how the US was slightly in advance in that way. But also why RR conducted that work as improvement were still on demands.

The base engine to conduct this work was the NEW MerlinXX flight tested in a Hurricane II.

There is a lot of interesting curves that I hve re-used in my post (but no scan). Most notably no perf test was seen using the 12lb boost when top performance was the very base of that work

The book itself is cheap (10 to 20$ ?) and can be ordered simply via amazon if I do remind well. I had to wait 1 or 2 month to get a new print out of the roll. You may read (or ask ?) Viper2000 posts with whom I heard first abt that book.

~S

The book ref. :

Performance of a Supercharged Aero Engine
Hooker, Stanley 1872922112
Rolls Royce Heritage Trust

http://www.amazon.com/Performance-Su...6&sr=8-2-fkmr0

(seems the price has increased - the bill I dug out of my archives says 6.53€ !)

Regarding the Spit II, I didn't heard any of your commentaries regarding the roll out date (august) and service intro (sept late)

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Regarding the Spit II, I didn't heard any of your commentaries regarding the roll out date (august) and service intro (sept late)

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no611-orb.jpg

16/8/1940 "A" Flight used the new Spitfires for the first time in operations.

Can you provide a source for the introduction of Spitfire II in OTU, e.g. which OTU received Spitfire II?

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

Can you provide a source for the introduction of Spitfire II in OTU, e.g. which OTU received Spitfire II?

P7280 IIa Morris MXII First Spitfire by Nuffield AMDP AAEE 27-6-40 diving trials with 7lb inertia wt on elev control syst. hand trials AST 25-10-40 DTD AAEE 29-10-40 403S 17-7-41 457S 4-10-41 61OTU 5-1-42 FACB 29-4-42 61OTU 2-7-43 trials with blister hood 10-43 comparison trials with N3171 (MkI) Spun into ground out of cloud Crickheath Farm nr Oswestry CE 15-9-44

P7281 IIa Morris MXII 6MU 17-6-40 612S 27-8-40 611S 27-8-40 41S 24-10-40 54S 22-2-41 616S 10-7-41 417S 26-1-42 15OTU 15-2-42 57OTU 30-7-42 CB 22-4-43 SOC 23-1-44

P7282 IIa Morris MXII 6MU 26-6-40 611S 22-8-40 41S 24-10-40 shot down by Bf109 P/O Draper injured C3 30-10-40 SOC 14-11-40

P7283 IIa Morris MXII 8MU 1-7-40 611S 26-8-40 41S 24-10-40 C2 ops 17-11-40 54S 12-2-41 234S 3-7-41 152S 28-10-41 8FTS 13-6-43 10AGS 17-4-45 FTR ops 17-5-45 SOC 18-6-45

P7284 IIa Morris MXII 8MU 7-7-40 611S 26-8-40 41S 24-10-40 C2 ops 26-10-40 54S 22-2-41 308S 14-7-41 610S 11-9-41 3ADF Spun into ground in circuit Valley CE 2-11-41 SOC 5-12-41

P7285 IIa Morris MXII 8MU 1-7-40 266S 5-9-40 603S 7-10-40 Shot down by Bf109s 16m E of Dover 8-10-40 F/O Kirkwood missing

P7286 IIa Morris MXII 9MU 13-7-40 152S 17-7-40 603S 17-10-40 shot down by Bf109 P/O Maxwell 27-10-40 AST AAEE 16-1-41 trials with Rotol constant-speed prop Morris rad and inertia weight 234S 12-5-41 VA 3-7-41 66S 31-7-41 152S 3-9-41 Overshot landing into fence Swanton Morley CAC 16-9-41 ASTE SOC 10-11-41

more @ http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p003.htm

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

... and now you are making things up again.

We have been throught this before on another Forum and again on this forum

The Zeno pilots notes you quote are here
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Im...pit2Manual.pdf

Please note item 35 gun controls where it has a) and b) and B has 2 x 20mm and 4 x LMG. Section 2 has the bit you keep quoting 100 Octane and 87 Octane.

The posting where you identified these as being the ones you quote is here
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...a-20108-8.html

The Pilots Note I refer to are here
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/oth...uals-9050.html

Please note item 44 Gun Controls where only the 8 mgs are mentioned, and item 55 where it clearly states only 100 Octane

The question I ask is this:-
When you know with an absolute certainty, that the quote you are making is wrong and misleading, why do you keep mentioning it as part of your evidence?
Unless of course you believe it to be true and that the RAF had Mk II spits in July 1940 with 2 x 20mm and 4 x LMG which is what your pilots notes say

People are free to look at these links, and if you do not reply with an explanation may well make their own mind up as to why.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

more @ http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p003.htm

Thanks, I checked several pages, the earliest date I found was December 1941 were a couple of Spitfire II were assigned to 61OTU. The majority was 1942 or later. I didn't find a single aircraft that was assigned directly from Maintenance Unit (MU) to OTU, all were transferred to operational squadrons first.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

The Spit II was introduced in august in OTU.

Regarding the armoured windshield I hd the same remark as KF looking at the picture... weird.

Spit II was introduced a bit latter during BoB. Link Alrdy posted on ATAG

http://plane-crazy.purplecloud.net/A...e%20mk%202.htm

seems you didn't take the time to check the link I just posted yesterday (see above) !

This Spit is on display in UK. You might hve the oportunity to check it by your own eyes

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

seems you didn't take the time to check the link I just posted yesterday (see above) !

This Spit is on display in UK. You might hve the oportunity to check it by your own eyes

I did check your link yesterday. But it only provides the history of a single aircraft (Spitfire II, Serial No. P7350) which was, according to your link, first delivered to No. 6 Maintenance Unit* in August 1940 and to No. 266 Squadron in September 1940. It was assigned to No. 57 Operational Training Unit in March 1942.

*every aircraft of was first assigned to a Maintenance Unit and than transferred to a Squadron.

I don't understand how you conclude from this link that the Spitfire II was first introduced in August 1940 in OTUs and wasn't used operational before September 1940.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

I don't understand how you conclude from this link that the Spitfire II was first introduced in August 1940 in OTUs and wasn't used operational before September 1940.

I don't !

Did I ?

just mixed MU and OTU.

September ! september ! september !

[41Sqn_Banks]

Ok, mixing abbreviations can happen.


Not September, but August.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no611-orb.jpg

16/8/1940 "A" Flight used the new Spitfires for the first time in operations.

[TomcatViP]

Banks, "my" Spit II is the 14th ever produced (Castel Brwnich) and made it in OP the 6th september.

It's hard to imagine any significant use of the II during august

A short abstract of the MkII history :
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...fire_mkII.html