Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Glider]

[QUOTE=Kurfürst;394577]

Originally Posted by Glider

Source please.

I admit, I laughed out loud when I saw this.
The minutes of the War Cabinet, the minutes that are on line (all of them), the ones I gave you the file number to look up.

The same War Cabinet that Pips insisted stopped the roll out in May, that decided to make 87 octane the primary fuel.

Tragically for your case, the minutes don't mention these decisions at all.

As sources go, I would suggest that the official minutes of the War Cabinet are a pretty good source to prove or disprove that statement of Pips

PS I am still waiting for your comments about how the fuel reserves went up from May to August without any tankers getting through.

PPS I can confirm that the original paper papers from the War Cabinet are the same as the on line ones. I went through the originals before they were made avaialble on line

[Kurfürst]

[QUOTE=Glider;394588]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

I admit, I laughed out loud when I saw this.

The minutes of the War Cabinet, the minutes that are on line (all of them), the ones I gave you the file number to look up.

I don't recall you giving me file numbers. I have asked you again, and you haven't provided file numbers now either.

So I ask you for the third time: can you give us a source where you claim that "the War Cabinet who clearly didn't decide to stop the roll out of 100 Octane".

YES / NO.

So far your standpoint can be summerized as denial of, from a position of complete ignorance, the existence of a paper in the Australian War Memorial archives that was found and summarized by a researcher there, based on papers you have never seen in your life and completely unaware of their contents, but assume they say want you want them to say.

Originally Posted by Glider

The same War Cabinet that Pips insisted stopped the roll out in May, that decided to make 87 octane the primary fuel.

There are literally hundreds of those 'War Cabinet' papers, as anyone can confirm who took a peep in the search engine and you haven't seen their contents.

Tragically for your case, the minutes don't mention these decisions at all.

Tragically for your case, its entirely transparent that you haven't actually looked into those papers, and simply making your story up.

As sources go, I would suggest that the official minutes of the War Cabinet are a pretty good source to prove or disprove that statement of Pips

That I agree. So disprove the statement of Pips. Since you misrepresent his position, I put it forward to you in its originality:

This is from a researcher, researching another subject (Dutch East Indies Fuel levels prior to the Japanese Invasion) at the Australian War Memorial Archives, from a document, copied to the Australian Military Commission in England in February 1941, by Roll Royce to Lord Beaverbrook outlining past, current and proposed changes to the Merlin; and factors that affect it's performance. It was a collection of lose-leaf typed pages, included as an addendum in a report titled Fuel Supplies to The British Empire And It's Commonwealth; Outlook, Ramifications and Projections For The Prosecution Of The War.

The reason why it is included amongst AWM papers is because the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF. McFarland, Pugh, Hart, Perret, Lumsden and even Churchill have all quoted parts from the report.

The first bulk shipment of 100 octane fuel had arrived in Britain in June 1939 from the Esso refinery in Aruba. This and subsequent tanker shipments from Aruba, Curacao and the USA were stockpiled while the RAF continued to operate on 87 octane petrol. Having secured what were considered reasonably sufficient quantities of 100 octane, Fighter Command began converting its engines to this standard in March 1940, allowing boost (manifold) pressures to be raised without the risk of detonation in the cylinders. This initial increase in maximum boost from 6 lb to 9 lb delivered a useful power growth of around 130hp at the rated altitude.

By the time of the invasion of the Low Countries by Germany in May 1940 the RAF had converted approximately 25 % of it's total fighter force to 100 octane fuel use. The subsequent escalation in air activity and demands placed upon Fighter Command over the next two months put great strain on both the 100 octane fuel stockpiles and aircraft modified to use the fuel. Against the backdrop of total war the RAF found that it's reserves of 100 octane fuel was well below the level considered necessary for widespread use, for any sustained length of time.

Two actions were immediately undertaken by the British War Cabinet in May to resolve the looming crisis. Firstly 87 octane fuel was deemed the primary fuel source to be used until further supplies could be discovered and delivered in sufficient quantities to allow the Merlin conversions to again take place. Those existing fighters already so converted (approximately 125) would continue to use what supplies of 100 octane were available, but all other fighters that had not been modified to continue with the use of 87 octane (of which there was more than adequate supply). The second action was for the British Government to contract the Shell Oil Refining Company to assist the British-controlled Iraqi Petroleum Company at Kirkuk to produce 100 octane fuel. This arrangement proved quite successful as production was quickly converted to 100 octane fuel.

The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August, with a further two deliveries in September and four in October. Although too late to allow widespread conversion for the use of the fuel the deliveries did ensure that from this point on Britain would not be lacking in 100 octane fuel levels. With the newfound supply RAF Fighter Command again embarked upon a Merlin II and III conversion to 100 octane use from late September, finally achieving 100% conversion of it's fighter force by the end of November in 1940.

PS I am still waiting for your comments about how the fuel reserves went up from May to August without any tankers getting through.

Well anyone who reads Pip's words (and not your strawmen of them) can read: "The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August,".

I am sure tankers got through. And a large number of them were sunk, as noted by secondary sources. This seems to have been worrying the British somewhat, since by that time the Germans has sunk about 10% of the British tanker fleet, and twice as many tankers that was under construction (19) in Britain.

And I am still waiting for your comments as to wheter you found a decision that would say the whole of Fighter Command is to convert to 100 octane fuel.

A simple YES / NO will do, because you seem to be very keen on asking questions, excellent at making up stories, but absolutely terrible in answering the questions asked.

PPS I can confirm that the original paper papers from the War Cabinet are the same as the on line ones. I went through the originals before they were made avaialble on line

No, you haven't went through. Unless you want to tell us you have went through 10 000s of pages created by the War Cabinet's 200+ Committees.

[Glider]

Re the Minutes of the War Cabinet Minutes
On Post 305 I advised that these records were available on line,
On post 307 you asked for the link,
On post 308 Winny attached a link
On post 309 I gave you the file no and was willing to help if you had problems.

Re Yes or No
The reply is yes, the War Cabinet Minutes do not record any decision of this kind.

Re the Paper you quoteAs mentioned a number of times The Australian War Memorial Archives have not heard of it. I do not believe it exists. The actions you highlight were not made by the War Cabinet in May as proven by the Minutes which do not mention this decision, in turn puts a huge hole in the existance or if it does exist, the accuracy of the said paper.

100% of Fighter Command using 100 OctaneYes, all the evidence points towards it. I have always said the case for it was a good case but not a perfect case, however there is no evidence to say that any squadron was using 87 octane for combat missions.

Did I go through the whole file for the War Cabinet
Yes I did. The files I concentrated on were, The War Cabinet , The Oil Committee, The Chief of the Air Staff official papers. The private papers of the Chief of the Air Staff which mainly consisted of memos between him and Churchill, plus people who became involved in resolving Churchils questions and the Air Ministry committee papers.

It was very interesting and the detail that people of this level got involved with was unbelievable. I did get my hopes up when there was a file on the availability of tankers. Turned out Churchill had a conversation with a pilot officer on a visit who said that the squadron could turn around quicker if they had an extra tanker to refuel the aircraft. As you might guess the topic was not what I hoped. If anyone is interested the delay wasn't in refueling the aircraft it was in rearming them and the Chief of the Air Staff had to inform Churchill of the steps being taken to speed this up. The steps were to train guards and others on how to rearm the aircraft so if there was an emergency situation they could assist.

You can now see why I get a little frustrated that I have put quite a considerable amount of effort into researching this topic, and you haven't even tried to find the one paper that you base your case on.

Edit
For a detail set of comments on the Pips Paper (with supporting docs) refer to posting 141

Can you tell us where you get 200 plus committees?

[NZtyphoon]

This is from a researcher, researching another subject (Dutch East Indies Fuel levels prior to the Japanese Invasion) at the Australian War Memorial Archives, from a document, copied to the Australian Military Commission in England in February 1941, by Roll Royce to Lord Beaverbrook outlining past, current and proposed changes to the Merlin; and factors that affect it's performance. It was a collection of lose-leaf typed pages, included as an addendum in a report titled Fuel Supplies to The British Empire And It's Commonwealth; Outlook, Ramifications and Projections For The Prosecution Of The War.

The reason why it is included amongst AWM papers is because the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF. McFarland, Pugh, Hart, Perret, Lumsden and even Churchill have all quoted parts from the report.

The first bulk shipment of 100 octane fuel had arrived in Britain in June 1939 from the Esso refinery in Aruba. This and subsequent tanker shipments from Aruba, Curacao and the USA were stockpiled while the RAF continued to operate on 87 octane petrol. Having secured what were considered reasonably sufficient quantities of 100 octane, Fighter Command began converting its engines to this standard in March 1940, allowing boost (manifold) pressures to be raised without the risk of detonation in the cylinders. This initial increase in maximum boost from 6 lb to 9 lb delivered a useful power growth of around 130hp at the rated altitude.

By the time of the invasion of the Low Countries by Germany in May 1940 the RAF had converted approximately 25 % of it's total fighter force to 100 octane fuel use. The subsequent escalation in air activity and demands placed upon Fighter Command over the next two months put great strain on both the 100 octane fuel stockpiles and aircraft modified to use the fuel. Against the backdrop of total war the RAF found that it's reserves of 100 octane fuel was well below the level considered necessary for widespread use, for any sustained length of time.

Two actions were immediately undertaken by the British War Cabinet in May to resolve the looming crisis. Firstly 87 octane fuel was deemed the primary fuel source to be used until further supplies could be discovered and delivered in sufficient quantities to allow the Merlin conversions to again take place. Those existing fighters already so converted (approximately 125) would continue to use what supplies of 100 octane were available, but all other fighters that had not been modified to continue with the use of 87 octane (of which there was more than adequate supply). The second action was for the British Government to contract the Shell Oil Refining Company to assist the British-controlled Iraqi Petroleum Company at Kirkuk to produce 100 octane fuel. This arrangement proved quite successful as production was quickly converted to 100 octane fuel.

The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August, with a further two deliveries in September and four in October. Although too late to allow widespread conversion for the use of the fuel the deliveries did ensure that from this point on Britain would not be lacking in 100 octane fuel levels. With the newfound supply RAF Fighter Command again embarked upon a Merlin II and III conversion to 100 octane use from late September, finally achieving 100% conversion of it's fighter force by the end of November in 1940.

Time to answer this directly: I have read the relevant sections in "Australia in the War of 1939-45: Civil: War Economy 1939-42 by S J Butlin. (Petrol and Substitute Fuels 280-292)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

1) There was no "Australian Military Commission" or any such organisation in Britain during WW 2.

2a) The Australian Government dealt directly with the oil companies when requesting stock of fuels of all types, including aviation fuels. "After the outbreak of war stocks continued to come from the oil companies and to be imported and distributed through their organisation...there were special features in the requirements of the forces: fuel oil for the navy; petrol for the army; and the special high grade aviation fuel for the air force. (p. 285): "Liaison with the oil companies had been maintained from before the war..."(p. 286):

b) Lord Beaverbrook and the Ministry of Aircraft Production had nothing whatsoever with deciding what types of fuels were supplied to Australia, nor how much. The Australian War Cabinet made decisions on aviation fuel supply and storage "In August 1940 the War Cabinet was asked for a decision on aviation spirit stocks....The suggestion therefore was that the Department of Supply should purchase 3,000,000 gallons and that three 1,200,000-gallon storage tanks be built. The Cabinet approved the purchase...(p. 287)

3) What did need to be co-ordinated with the British was the shipment, allocation of tankers etc. "Diversion of tankers to meet the special needs of the United Kingdom...(p. 28

The book should be available through libraries, second hand bookshops etc so anyone can check.

[41Sqn_Banks]

There is a document (97 pages) available in the National Archives of Australia that deal with the supply of 100 octane fuel for the RAAF that covers 1940 and 1941.

Fortunately they are available online:
A705, 164/1/975 (searching for this reference number doesn't return a result, search for "Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline" will give you the result)
RAAF - Directorate of Supply - Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/

You can also simply type "100 octane" in the search field, there are only 4 documents.

Maybe there can be found a evidence that

the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF.

Or there might be evidences that this was not the case, for example if there was enough supply on 100 octane fuel available there was no need to protest.

So far I didn't read through all the pages.


Interesting find page 97:

14th August 1940.
...
Brief survey of the engines likely to be available for aircraft that may meet Australian requirements indicate that fuel of 90 and 95 octane rating is called for.
...
Even these engines likely to disappear from serious production early 1941 and some of the new engines will require 100 octane. Understand that Great Britain now using at least the appropriate octane fuel in all engines that can benefit thereby and has probably standardized on 100 octane fuel for engines of this class.
...

[NZtyphoon]

McFarland, Pugh, Hart, Perret, Lumsden and even Churchill have all quoted parts from the report.

Exactly where and in what context? A J P Taylor did an excellent biography of Beaverbrook, dealing extensively with his duties as Minister in charge of MAP, and using Beaverbrook's records and direct interviews with Beaverbrook. Nowhere is there any mention of Beaverbrook dealing with the Australians on a question of fuel supply and one would have thought that a biography of this nature would have at least mentioned something that was of such apparent importance that Churchill quoted from parts of it.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

There is a document (97 pages) available in the National Archives of Australia that deal with the supply of 100 octane fuel for the RAAF that covers 1940 and 1941.

Fortunately they are available online:
A705, 164/1/975
RAAF - Directorate of Supply - Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/

You can also simply type "100 octane" in the search field, there are only 4 documents.

Maybe there can be found a evidence that
Or there might be evidences that this was not the case, for example if there was enough supply on 100 octane fuel available there was no need to protest.

So far I didn't read through all the pages.


Interesting find page 97:

An excellent Link many thanks.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Glider

An excellent Link many thanks.

Excellent? A small understatement:

Page 13 "Suggest therefore that Shell be asked to import the whole of 500,000 gallons at their own expense"

page 19 (30-1-41) "Only a small portion of this percentage of 100 Octane Spirit is yet to be delivered, but the balance is now on the water according to our latest advices from the SHELL Company."

page 55 (22-2-41) 2 "Meantime I have spoken to Captain Jones of the Shell Company and informed him that we require 100,000 gallons (or some substantial portion thereof) of Octane 100 to be ordered at once for delivery..." (Group Captain Department of Supply)

page 59 (19-2-41) Cable to Shell "It is a provision of the new contracts about to be entered into with your company and the Vacuum Oil Company....The Department of Air now desires...that 1,000,000 gallons of 100 octane base fuel be substituted in lieu thereof...(Deputy Director of Contracts to General Manager Shell)

page 60 (19-2-41) Similar cable to Vacuum Oil.

and lots more besides - bottom line Australian Government ordered supplies of 100 octane directly from oil companies Shell and Vacuum

[41Sqn_Banks]

From what I've read so far in 1941 Australia received their 100 octane fuel directly from Shell and Vacuum Oil Company.

In fact they didn't need 100 octane fuel in 1941 as they didn't have any aircraft that required it. What they actually needed was 90 octane fuel for their Catalina flying boats.

It was possible to blend 90 octane fuel from 73 octane base fuel by slightly violating the specifications in case of emergency. However they decided to mix it locally from 100 octane and 87 octane fuel.

Ironically on 21 February 1941 (page 61) where the Australian Government is supposed to protest against the continuous supply of 87 fuel:

It must be understood that approximately 115,000 gallons of 100 Octane Base Spirit is already in order, and delivery anticipated within the next few days.

Page 47-53 gives stock in Feb/March 1941 and approx. consumption of 90 and 100 octane for 1941.

Page 44 gives expected amount of 100 octane for June 1941

Which were in fact delieverd, see Page 41:

As you are aware, wer are now unloading 347,000 gallons of the 100 Octane base product, ...

To come back to the previous theory:

The reason why it is included amongst AWM papers is because the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF.

1. Supply of 100 octane fuel to Australia was received directly from Shell and Vacuum Oil Company without the involvement of any other Government.
2. They did in fact receive the amount of 100 octane fuel they have ordered.
3. The RAAF only "wanted" to employ 90 octane fuel where the engine required it.

[lane]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

There is a document (97 pages) available in the National Archives of Australia that deal with the supply of 100 octane fuel for the RAAF that covers 1940 and 1941.

Fortunately they are available online:
A705, 164/1/975 (searching for this reference number doesn't return a result, search for "Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline" will give you the result)
RAAF - Directorate of Supply - Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/

You can also simply type "100 octane" in the search field, there are only 4 documents.

Maybe there can be found a evidence that
Or there might be evidences that this was not the case, for example if there was enough supply on 100 octane fuel available there was no need to protest.

So far I didn't read through all the pages.

Interesting find page 97:

Nice find 41Sqn_Banks, thanks for sharing! Good job summarizing the material in your post 407.