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#71
10-18-2010, 06:01 AM
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All abilities never bypass defense, ok then, try to use your black dragon reign of fire to hit giant for example, then hit peasant with the same black dragon, do you notice the very high dmg difference, note that both have 0 fire resistance, well... how do you explain that? that's because of giant and peasant high defence difference. Besides the astral attack and probably the other orcs abilities, there are no abilities (be it skills or talents) that bypass defence status. Goblin axe thrower in AP doesn't have Unstopable ability, only Zeroing. Check it again for yourself (revert to your AP campaign). Again you're wrong, dancing axe never bypass defence status, at least in AP, though it seems the same in CW, my lv 5 stacks never bothered by dancing axe, even if it's from hundreds of orc shaman, yet astral attack from goblin shamans and orc shamans (especially goblin shaman) does much more dmg than dancing axe, i have 70% astral resistance and 50% magic resistance. However that dacing axe hit very hard to my low lv stacks, which explain they don't bypass defence status like astral attack. Note that dancing axe and astral attack of goblin shaman have same damage, yet the astral attack does way more damage than dancing axe. The only explainable reason is that astral attack bypass defence, while dancing axe are not. I know with the same leadership, you can field more goblin shaman, so even if their damage are the same, goblin hit harder, indeed, but why the diffence is so high. Note that goblin shaman leadership is 130, orc shaman is 200. Let's say you have 4k leadership (20 orc shamans, 30 goblin shamans) and your target has 0 astral and 0 magic resistance, without considering the defence stat, at same leadership goblin shaman should hit with 50% more damage than dancing axe to target with , but the fact proves otherwise, i mean goblin hit like 250-400 % more dmg than dancing axe, reasonable explanation? Astral attack bypass defence. Ok, i don't care if those shamans are enemies or orc are overpowered (i admitt orcs are the most overpowered race now), but the problem is player can field them. Because orcs are so overpowered, most KB players especially those that never play 2 previous installment, tend to stick with orcs. This limit the troop choice of this game which destroy one of the purpose and beauty of the game. 
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#72
10-18-2010, 07:59 AM
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Thanks for the confirmation, Atlatea. I think it was a mishap on the developer's side - they wanted an attack that bypasses all Resistances - hence the Astral Damage - but in their error they also made the attack bypass all Defense as well.
I think, after the fix, Goblin Shamans and Blood Shamans will still be powerfull, but not ridiculously over-powerfull. I mean, their attack will still do Astral Damage, something that no enemy has resistances against, thus a Blood Shaman's Astral Strike against a Black Dragon will do more damage then a Shaman's Dancing Axes. And yeah, the only units who can act again after killing an enemy (or taking damage) in AP were the Gorgul, Gorguana, Demon and Executioner (and the Assassin after using Murder). Goblins, I remember, even with Zeroing in, were laughably weak enemies, I never had any problems against them.
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#73
10-18-2010, 01:27 PM
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40*0.033 =~ 1.2, so 1.2 + 1 = 2.2 so (50-70)*2.2 ~ 110-154. It also means, on the same token, the Orc attacks can never do 3X damage from the base damage, but the base damage is so high, this hardly matters. ;( I stand corrected, I thought it didn't work that way. This makes me look at the Defense stat in a totally different way now (and the Attack Stat). I tend to agree it was probably an oversight, or if they intend to have it be a neutral attack (unable to increase and unable to decrease), it should have a lower setting. Sniffles, in long matches, those goblins started doing some big damage to me. I've always been intrigued by them due to the zeroing in ability. 
Last edited by ckdamascus; 10-18-2010 at 01:34 PM.
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#74
10-18-2010, 02:29 PM
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 but Scrounger has a lethal level of danger in my current campaign. And I am pretty sure that you can't make all of her units miss from causing you enough damage from which you can't recover completely. Even with paladins and other res units. I am trying to beat her without many casualties but it's very hard, let alone with no loss.Care to give you strategy, or what units did you use? Thank you
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#75
10-18-2010, 02:53 PM
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I was a Mage, Scrounger starts off as Invincible for my Level 55 Mage, so I am going to assume you are a Paladin or Warrior. I don't think my method was particularly elegant, but this is what I did. My army make up was Rune Mages, Trolls, Orc Chieftain, Black Dragons, and Shaman. Rune Mages was probably my key saving unit. I would basically just delay/tank as much as possible. I know it would feed them into max Adrenaline (and higher), but it was the method I went with since I could not easily revive them all if I lost more than 70% of any stack in round 1. The enemy really liked killing my rune mages, so I would Phantom them ASAP. I would even use Mystic Egg a couple of times and released at least two Black Holes. I might have threw one Ball of Lightning, but again, my main concern was ensuring any other unit was soaking hits but my own. Shaman would mass heal the level 5 units with dancing axes (thus, saving me from consuming a revive with the rune mages), OR throw a ward in front of them JUST to suck up one hit. My units were all high level, so I would use phantom rune mages to restore everything, sometimes even double casting it to ensure I had - a reserve revive - ability to sheep on attack (has to be ranged) - call up a meat shield It was a little while ago, but I am fairly certain I started off with one phantom and one black hole. They had ogres and they would always drain me in that critical first round, and it was particularly frustrating. The blackhole starter usually ended up killing them in the beginning. The general strategy was to form meat shields, delay as long as possible while sneaking in more attacks via Black Hole, pygmy, phantom tanks and disable as much via Runemages/Phantoms. While the rune mages was the key enabler unit, the trolls would end up being the real heroes, since they would converge on maximum 300% dmg bonus as everything started dying. I relied on the Ogre Set to give me the leadership boosts and that's why I was so dead set on using trolls and orc chieftains (since orc chieftains are basically ogres with a new skin, it seems they inherit the underlying characteristics). I am pretty sure I was down to the last phantom/revive and such and nearly out of mana. It was very long. (~20 turns?) Very tough for me. I should have went in with more disable in mind I think. Anyways, I think atlatea's method is much easier and cleaner. He beats it in like 5 rounds and heals it all with just one paladin prayer! He used dryads to lullaby the goblin shaman, threw a disable at a shaman too (sheep or blind). Since he is a paladin class, it made sense he had paladins and inquistors in his army for the 40% bonus damage. Then he would bear down on the key units. Standard divide and conquer methods. He also had black dragons too. I think his post is detailed within this very thread and he probably can tell you more of the finer details. Last edited by ckdamascus; 10-18-2010 at 02:59 PM.
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#76
10-18-2010, 03:40 PM
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Actually, no ckdamascus, my method was no better than you, i guess you read it wrong, it's not scrounger (imo it's impossible to beat her in 5 rounds), but rakush.
Well, it was the same againts scrounger, delaying them, using mystic egg, need a bit of luck, probably mine is safer due to disabling all shamans at early stage, but then again, another problem also arise, orc chieftain and ogre also proves to be serious damage dealer, combined with the poison from that 1k goblin axe thrower, they can do dmg that is beyond revivable for no loss game. But, it's possible to win againts scrounger with no loss in impossible, it's just hard and long (mine was abouth 25 turn if i remembered right). Too bad i left my screenshot at my PC at home (atm i'm using notebook and far from home). The key is to evade astral attack from goblin shaman, in other words, disable goblin shaman asap (and orc shaman if you can), then it's a matter of troops placement. Also need very very high defence and attack (i have about 27 attack and 44 def). Since i'm using paladin i can't disable both shamans at once. My troops are dryad, rune mage, paladin, hunter, black dragon. I use dryads (onslaught 3 and caution 3 are a must have) to disable goblin shaman and lv 1-3 stacks at turn 1, while using sheep at orc shaman. But the weird thing is, scrounger teleported her orc shaman right next in front my paladin (i'm lucky), then i move my black dragon hoping that two ogre stacks won't hit it, well, i don't know why those two ogre attacking my paladin. Then i just move rune mage, and hunter to a safe place and block them with summons (from rune mage and dryad). Turn 2, i cast target to paladin, my paladin tank both ogres and orc chieftain and the rest of the ranged stacks, while black dragon and bone dragons (got it from eggs) help thining those ogre and orc shaman, rune mage and hunter thining goblin axe thrower (i hate its poison). Turn 3, stone skin at paladin and moving my paladin so only 2 ogre and 1 orc chieftain stacks can attack it (effectively disabling other melee stacks), the rest is the same (thining dangerous threats), turn 4 phantoming dryads for more summons, fodder and diversion, then bone and black dragons goes helping dryad and rune mage to thin goblin axe thrower, goblin shaman, next turn is just the same. I use pet dragon astral dmg ability whenever i have 80 rage to thin ogre and orc chieftain and other melee stacks, ball of lightning also necessary. At later turn i just left 7 goblin axe thrower while resurecting losses (mainly paladin since he did most of the tanking). Most of the damage are done by black dragons and pet dragon. Goblin shaman and orc shaman never cast astral attack due to target and scrounger stupidity, yet i use +70% astral resistance items, what a waste. Last edited by atlatea; 10-18-2010 at 03:59 PM.
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#77
10-18-2010, 04:32 PM
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Funny thing is, in my game, I did NOT want those blood shaman right next to my rune mages haha. Argh, now I remember the horror of when I was about to win in no-loss and the stupid orc chieftain came over and did his Spiritual BULLCRAP that wiped out my dragons and griffins (that popped out of the mystic egg). They dared to sneak past the "wall" to try to sabotage the enemy goblins/shaman. I had to reload a few times and I think turn 25ish was probably about right for me too.  I do remember the glee in my face when I saw another 12 black dragons? (Mystic Egg rounds up the leadership rolls. woot), pop out of my mystic egg during that battle. Thank goodness Scrounger is not a Geyser freak. Almost as good as when I saw Black Dragons show up in the Wizard's Tower last battle. Ugh, now that was a long one too. Rune Mages again saved me... in one hell of a fight.
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#78
10-18-2010, 04:56 PM
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Yeah, orc chieftain and ogre proves to be two of scrounger's most annoying stacks (besides shamans and goblin poison axe). Luckily the battle arena is not flat normal arena, so that chieftain can be blocked (at least that happens in my case).
Scrounger indeed love to kill rune mage, whenever astral attack come, it always aimed to rune mage, what a weird and annoying orc. I guess most if not all players need to reload againts scrounger. I got an easy no loss win yet very long battle in tower last fight. I just use black dragons and few gizmos. I'm too afraid to use full army, because i can't imagine how powerful caretaker's geyser with such a very high int and insane amount of mana. Scrounger and caretaker are easily the hardest battles of all. Last edited by atlatea; 10-18-2010 at 04:58 PM.
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#79
10-18-2010, 06:46 PM
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I don't remember or think Caretaker ever uses Geyser, at least he didn't use it against me. However, I never did like the armies they gave me. Most are waay too fragile to take care of, so a no-loss with the care taker is pretty annoying. I feel like I have no choice but to go rune mage, but after your Gizmo + Black Dragon tip, sounds like I have another way to win it. [edit] Ugh, now I remember why I felt so strongly about the Defense stat not affecting abilities like Dancing Axes. 17 Shaman used Dancing Axes on my Cyclops Dancing Axes does 20-25 Magical Damage, has an Attack Rating of 23, my Cyclops has a Defense of 73. At about 50 difference in Attack/Defense, I should have taken about 37% damage, or a 63% reduction in damage. I took 429 Damage. 17*(20-25) = 340-425 damage. Funny, since I have 3% magical resistance. So I clearly took nearly full damage (if anything, I took more). I felt it has always been this way with Shaman in AP, because they would always hunt my beloved Trolls and kill... kill kill. I am beginning to believe CERTAIN abilities always bypass the Defense stat, but others do not? Or can someone explain to me why this is the case if the abilities are affected by the Defense stat? Last edited by ckdamascus; 10-18-2010 at 09:11 PM.
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#80
10-18-2010, 09:12 PM
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I see your strategies and they are really cool.
I am also trying a no loss with the ogre set, with my army comprising:Warrior 53 lv Trolls, Orc chieftain, Ogre, Shaman, Orc Hunter (any idea why printscreen wont work on KB?It just copies my desktop) Last edited by shqiponja_hayabusa; 10-18-2010 at 09:15 PM.
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