Some tips for newbie warrior?

[maltz]

Hello,

Any tip will be appreciated.
For example, at a low level (lv 1-5) my favorite army setup is:

Horsemen, Griffin, Bowmen, Priest, Archmage

Troop conservation works quite well with this setup.

[Calinda]

Try to find inquisitors ... Go for distortion magic asap, and even upgrade it. Take leadership every time you can, also go for those talents that reduce army's leadership requirements.

[Metathron]

Take leadership every time you can

Even at the beginning? :confused:

[Gatts]

Take rage instead leadership first levels... I do not take leadership till level 15 (but it may be 10 or 20... depends how much you need huge armies, or if you can deliver good damage by combination of units)

but after level 15 take leadership every possible level :)

After rage it would be ATT.

so level below 15:
Att, Rage... if no other such option, then DEF

level 15 and above:
Leadership, Rage, Att (not you should be always be able to take something useful, only if realy unlucky, the options are : Mana / INT ... BAD!)

Do not avoid magic units, they can replace your own magic skills (shield from archmage, ressurection from inquisitor) but do not hesitate to kick em out and replace them with real WARRIOR units : real tanks like giants, demons, ancient bears, knights...

Do use your second "shield" slot for weapons... more damage = more rage, better counterattacks... skrew defense

Should you not like TANK tactics, go for shooters, obtain and learn dragon arrows, use shooting improving artefacts, and get all shooters that deliver deadly damage... precision also works fine + dragon arrow, you will be the hear piercer on the battlefield :)

[maltz]

Thanks for the tips.

I've restarted the game a few times. Each time I was not satisfied with some inferior skill decisions I made or the lack of nice equipment in the immediate surrounding.

I don't like the game's randomness (i.e. luck) so much. I have to always figure out the best strategy based on what I was given, not what I have been planning. I wish I can choose spells and equipments and optimize them for upcoming situations. I have quite a bit of experiences from Heroes of Might and Magic V. In HOMMV the randomness still exists, but character planning (and a little restarting for the spells offered, yeah) can take us through the most difficult challenges.

In my current game I don't have Griffins offered to me, but a stack of 22 inquisitors from the forest mage tower and the furious paladin, plus and 14 horsemen from the tent made things a breeze for the first continent. I do miss the Griffins very much. Fortunately I got their eggs to spawn more later.

I got two kids from the frog wife, one with +5 defense and the other +20% defense. With equipment my lv 9 warrior has 23 defense! (12 ATK) The royal snakes are indeed awesome. I bought all of them and stock up in the castle.

[Calinda]

Not taking leadership early with a warrior is just stupid ... Till level 15 is just more stupid. You won't be able to kill everything at the start areas, and will have really hard time when you go to freedom isles. If you dont take leadership till and including level 10, you have missed 100 + 200 + 300 +400 +500 = 1500 leadership already. This will make your life much harder than you expect, I guarantee.

Edit: I speak with high difficulty POV, like impossible; On lower difficulty you will be ok with other ways of development.

[Gatts]

Not taking leadership early with a warrior is just stupid ... Till level 15 is just more stupid. You won't be able to kill everything at the start areas, and will have really hard time when you go to freedom isles. If you dont take leadership till and including level 10, you have missed 100 + 200 + 300 +400 +500 = 1500 leadership already. This will make your life much harder than you expect, I guarantee.

Edit: I speak with high difficulty POV, like impossible; On lower difficulty you will be ok with other ways of development.

Stupid? Really? So let me laugh at your statement, also allow me to tell you :" Be my guest!" as I never had problems with fights till and above level 15 as warrior... not to mention that on level 16 one time Leadership will greatly replace all leadership SUM of 1~14 level levelups. But in exchange I have much more RAGE and ATT... (of course if I would have mana/Leadership on level 10, I would go for Leadership... but on level 3 I would go for mana...). Also, I am not stupid, far from it, and I have papers for it (Officially measured IQ). If you like to advise to take Leadership each possible level, do so. Please try not to comment others suggestions in such unfriendly manner. Cheers!

I also had in mind all difficulties, so even Impossible.

Maltz: Try not to be so demotivated with some unfortunate skills/level up decisions/options... each time there would some like that, also try to look if the game randomness did not reward you in other way (like great artefacts) before you restart it.

[Calinda]

OK, when you beat MY score, I may agree with you ... Till then I hold on to my words.

[Amiable]

Not taking leadership early with a warrior is just stupid ... Till level 15 is just more stupid. You won't be able to kill everything at the start areas, and will have really hard time when you go to freedom isles. If you dont take leadership till and including level 10, you have missed 100 + 200 + 300 +400 +500 = 1500 leadership already. This will make your life much harder than you expect, I guarantee.

Edit: I speak with high difficulty POV, like impossible; On lower difficulty you will be ok with other ways of development.

This is completely correct. In fact leadership should be number 1 priority for ALL characters (except perhaps for mages early on when given a choice between that and int, and even then it is arguable). Arguing that rage trumps leadership is the silliest thing I have ever heard. I never take a rage level up and I always have plenty of rage to use all of my abilities. The problem wtih rage abilities is recharge time (until end game at least).

Leadership level ups do not occur randomly, the come up every other level (or every level until you choose to take leadership). If you want to max your leadership you should take it every time you have the opportunity.

Warriors big advantage is the large army, play to your strengths.

[Gatts]

OK, when you beat MY score, I may agree with you ... Till then I hold on to my words.

What is your highest Score? I will beat it.

+ Not taking Leadership first 15 levels...

[Calinda]

QFT:
What is your highest Score? I will beat it.

+ Not taking Leadership first 15 levels...

It's already posted and good luck with doing that:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=4864&page=6

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=454&d=1229013145

[Gatts]

1719+ than it will be...

[maltz]

Thanks for the opinions. :-P

Since I play on normal I start taking leadership at level 8 (skipped the opportunities before) and won't miss any chance afterward. In the games I found quite a few equipments that increases Leadership by 100-250. So I am still doing all right.

[BAL_Hawk]

Take rage instead leadership first levels... I do not take leadership till level 15 (but it may be 10 or 20... depends how much you need huge armies, or if you can deliver good damage by combination of units)

but after level 15 take leadership every possible level :)

After rage it would be ATT.

so level below 15:
Att, Rage... if no other such option, then DEF

level 15 and above:
Leadership, Rage, Att (not you should be always be able to take something useful, only if realy unlucky, the options are : Mana / INT ... BAD!)

Do not avoid magic units, they can replace your own magic skills (shield from archmage, ressurection from inquisitor) but do not hesitate to kick em out and replace them with real WARRIOR units : real tanks like giants, demons, ancient bears, knights...

Do use your second "shield" slot for weapons... more damage = more rage, better counterattacks... skrew defense

Should you not like TANK tactics, go for shooters, obtain and learn dragon arrows, use shooting improving artefacts, and get all shooters that deliver deadly damage... precision also works fine + dragon arrow, you will be the hear piercer on the battlefield :)

Awesome tips! I just bought the game and started playing as the Warrior. Could you give me some more advice?

What are the most important things that I should focus on when leveling? Also, why should I choose rage over leadership in the early levels? Finally, what skills should I focus on as a warrior?

Anything else you can think of would be great!

[Holywhippet]

What are the most important things that I should focus on when leveling? Also, why should I choose rage over leadership in the early levels? Finally, what skills should I focus on as a warrior?

I suspect he advises rage over leadership because rage boosts tend to be fairly decent throughout the game - like +6 or so which can make the difference for high cost rage powers. Leadership however scales as the game goes on. At low levels you'll only get a small boost to leadership if you chose it when levelling up - like a few hundred. That barely makes a difference later in the game - but the extra rage might.

Skills that boost experience and gold gains are good. So are skills that give you offense/defense bonuses. For other skills consider whether they match your style or seem useful to you.

[Calinda]

Gatts' tips are awesome, but only for newbies who play on some low difficulty, they simply won't work on impossible. I am still waiting for him to beat my score :P

[Gatts]

Gatts' tips are awesome, but only for newbies who play on some low difficulty, they simply won't work on impossible. I am still waiting for him to beat my score :P

I am now level 15 (not a single time I took Leadership, even if according my own tips, I should - " If you have Mana/Leadership, take leadership", but this race is about no Leadership till lvl 15... I am little bit late (finishing freedom islands, day 3) ) some battles were tough... but not tough enough :)... I am playing impossible a lot, I just never "rushed" for top score (I enjoyed playing the game)... so after weekend I will come and smash Calindas score...muahahahaha... first time I play for score and I like it...

To BAL Hawk:
1. get the FAN MANUAL (translated to ENG, if you can't read russian :) ) - be the fan manual you bible (all spells/atrefacts/skills and rage skills are there)
2. Save a lot (not only QUICKSAVE, but da real save... )
3. Try to experience with army combinations, not to be afraid of morale loss, find the most fitting units for your strategy... by this you will also determine your KB strategy...(if you have a lot of HOMM experience, try to ignore all knowledge you have from HOMM, it messed my playstyle in KB, as there are small, but many differences in logic/units/spells etc.)
4. If you don't go for SCORE (my play style) you may search all areas/ land and sea avoiding overpowering or Impossible enemies and STEAL all free lying stuff. (you can use "catch me" tactic, you provoke enemy stack/army to follow you, you are always faster, so you may MANIPULATE their trajectory. By this you can "take" them out of their places, and if you go far away from them, they will stand there with ??? above their heads for few seconds... and slowly return... you can use this time for stealing them blindly)
5. Do learn all skills of your units, as warrior you lack on spells/mana, but many units have usefull skills, learn them, use them
6. Go for BERSERK spell, it will greatly improve the ATT of your units, is cheap (on mana) and will have much more effect than any damage spell (at least if your INT is below 15)... know that even BERSERK rises with your INT thus :)... this spell will not make your unit to attack your other units... so if you place BERSERK on your archers, the archers will still attack ENEMY (but you can't choose whom) you can combine this with Dragon Arrows, Precision, Bless and get such amount of damage as you would never dream of.
7. Check for MODS

[Fandango]

Now this is exciting! :) Who's taking the bets?? I'm putting 175 000 gold and two Might Runes for Gatts!

...and also children, remember to play nice. ;)

[Amiable]

7. Check for MODS

I think its innapropriate to take this challenge with MODS. If you are going to do it it should be unmodded.

[Fandango]

I think its innapropriate to take this challenge with MODS. If you are going to do it it should be unmodded.

If you're referring to the Gatts' top score challenge, no one have said that Gatts is using MODS in his attempt... or maybe I missed something?

[Gatts]

I think its innapropriate to take this challenge with MODS. If you are going to do it it should be unmodded.

If you would know there is a MOD that allows you to move your adventure camera further away from target point, you would not go for it?

I would and I was sorry I did not have this MOD from the beginning... there are MODs that REPAIR BUGs for instance... it is handy to have these... so: check the MODS... and decide rather or not use them, but CHECK THEM. My strong advise.

And of course I do not use any MODs in this challenge... not even the camera one... as well I am not using cheats...

[Calinda]

LOL behind my score is some serious theorycrafting, and that is the highest possible score without some form of cheating / modding :) So his score will be equal in the best case ...

[Gatts]

If I would have level 31, I should get some more points... isn't that right?

[Calinda]

That's right but lvl 30 -> lvl 31 is like 1 mln XP, stilll haven't seen someone finishing at 31, simply there aren't enough battles/XP in the game, even if you try to degrade items and suppress as much as possible.

[Gatts]

That's right but lvl 30 -> lvl 31 is like 1 mln XP, stilll haven't seen someone finishing at 31, simply there aren't enough battles/XP in the game, even if you try to degrade items and suppress as much as possible.

We will see about that.. it also depend on many other factors... like fighting same army on different level may give you either 1500 XP or 60 XP... so I am still optimistic...not to mention I have invested all runes in all three levels of Learning ASAP :)

[Calinda]

...not to mention I have invested all runes in all three levels of Learning ASAP :)
So was I ...

[Gatts]

Ok, for first try not bad: 1713 (I missed 2 quests, I know how and I know how to make them... I was basically to much focusing on time, missing these two) but I have the game saved each few minutes (and it was like 20+ hours of gameplay :) ) so I will redo it...

I finished in day 6, 100 quests, level 30 (1M exp, but still missing 650K for level 31... not even EXP bonus artefacts would help me... still I believe 1,7M exp is possible even on impossible) So now I have to repair my mistakes (2 quests) and spend another 15 hours at PC :)...

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=65332&postcount=12

[BAL_Hawk]

I am now level 15 (not a single time I took Leadership, even if according my own tips, I should - " If you have Mana/Leadership, take leadership", but this race is about no Leadership till lvl 15... I am little bit late (finishing freedom islands, day 3) ) some battles were tough... but not tough enough :)... I am playing impossible a lot, I just never "rushed" for top score (I enjoyed playing the game)... so after weekend I will come and smash Calindas score...muahahahaha... first time I play for score and I like it...

To BAL Hawk:
1. get the FAN MANUAL (translated to ENG, if you can't read russian :) ) - be the fan manual you bible (all spells/atrefacts/skills and rage skills are there)
2. Save a lot (not only QUICKSAVE, but da real save... )
3. Try to experience with army combinations, not to be afraid of morale loss, find the most fitting units for your strategy... by this you will also determine your KB strategy...(if you have a lot of HOMM experience, try to ignore all knowledge you have from HOMM, it messed my playstyle in KB, as there are small, but many differences in logic/units/spells etc.)
4. If you don't go for SCORE (my play style) you may search all areas/ land and sea avoiding overpowering or Impossible enemies and STEAL all free lying stuff. (you can use "catch me" tactic, you provoke enemy stack/army to follow you, you are always faster, so you may MANIPULATE their trajectory. By this you can "take" them out of their places, and if you go far away from them, they will stand there with ??? above their heads for few seconds... and slowly return... you can use this time for stealing them blindly)
5. Do learn all skills of your units, as warrior you lack on spells/mana, but many units have usefull skills, learn them, use them
6. Go for BERSERK spell, it will greatly improve the ATT of your units, is cheap (on mana) and will have much more effect than any damage spell (at least if your INT is below 15)... know that even BERSERK rises with your INT thus :)... this spell will not make your unit to attack your other units... so if you place BERSERK on your archers, the archers will still attack ENEMY (but you can't choose whom) you can combine this with Dragon Arrows, Precision, Bless and get such amount of damage as you would never dream of.
7. Check for MODS

Awesome! I actually played all weekend using your tips. I'm not much of a gamer and am taking it slow. I'm now at level 10 with the warrior. It has been tough not taking leadership, but I've held on.

I've got a question. I just fought the turtle boss and beat him. When I got back to the castle, "guardsman" became available at the knight's temple. What are they good for? Their stats aren't much better than swordsman. Is the morale bonus big? I love my archers (dragon arrows!), and I thought that the morale bonus from guardsman might help them. I just don’t know exactly what it does.

Thanks for the tips Gatts! They really helped!

[lauvhk]

+1 morale - which translate into 10% increase for Attack and Defense and 125% for performing critical attack - for both swordmans and archers from guardsman's commander talent.

[BAL_Hawk]

+1 morale - which translate into 10% increase for Attack and Defense and 125% for performing critical attack - for both swordmans and archers from guardsman's commander talent.

Thanks!

[t0nedude]

As a warrior, and purely from a 'What is better at level up' viewpoint between Attack+1 and Leadership+n.

Leadership wins everytime, at every level up.

Not an opinion, just a fact.

The math is this:

+1 to attack equates to your army doing an extra 3.3% damage overall.

Whereas the leadership bonus is ALWAYS in the region of 10-20% of your current total, ie. essentially an increase in army strength of 10-20% due to increased numbers.

The math is pretty clear to me, and without fault.

Tony.

[Ryastar]

As a warrior, and purely from a 'What is better at level up' viewpoint between Attack+1 and Leadership+n.

Leadership wins everytime, at every level up.

Not an opinion, just a fact.

The math is this:

+1 to attack equates to your army doing an extra 3.3% damage overall.

Whereas the leadership bonus is ALWAYS in the region of 10-20% of your current total, ie. essentially an increase in army strength of 10-20% due to increased numbers.

The math is pretty clear to me, and without fault.

Tony.

Actually, it doesn't quite work that way. You can't just look at it from "what does it give me right now" standpoint. Let's put it this way: sure, at level 2, the 120 leadership is probably about 10-20% of your current leadership, even more than that, even. However, when you are level 30, your leadership will probably be around 25k, meaning that the 120 leadership is now only 0.48% of your leadership, where as the +1 attack is still an increase of 3.33% damage, better by a factor of 6. Attack and other stat upgrades (with the possible exception of mana and, less likely, int) are vastly better choices for the first 10-15 levels, mathematically. Assuming an average ending leadership of 25k, the first time leadership is more valuable than attack is level 14, where the 840 leadership becomes 3.36% of your ending leadership, only a narrow advantage over attack. Beyond that, go for leadership without question.

[maltz]

I am now further into the game (lv 25). Let me attempt to answer my own questions in case it is helps other new players:

(1) The items and spells offered to you determines your strategy and preferred army. Keep options open.

(2) Some really long-lasting useful units (available since early game) are:

Royal snakes: no retaliation, hit hard & reasonably fast. Must combine with the frog wife (ignore her for a while and she will turn into a frog). Even better with Grand Druid's Staff and the Ring of Snake King. Swap out the staff with better weapon artifact later, though. Always sold in the Alanria cave.

Inquisitor: powerful undead killer. Resurrection special ability keeps the army healthy. There is no guarantee of supply, though.

Evil beholders: mind control is awesome when followed with the Hypnotize spell (the effect will last to round 3) as a battle opener. Available in Freedom island or the latest dwarf underground.

(3) Some long-lasting useful spells are:

Distortion magics - most of the best spells are in this category. Max (lv 3) ASAP.

Hypnotize: great battle opener, especially useful if followed by sacrifice to replenish troops.

Sacrifice: (chaos magic) convert army A into B. Great when followed with Hypnotize as that army A comes from the enemy. You can always buy hordes of peasants and kill them while battling some weak enemies. Get Chaos lv 2 later so you can gain dragons this way, too. Sacrifice is the only way to keep a healthy stack when it is not available for sale (or sold out).

Phantom: clone your best/fastest stack and rush them into the enemy. Note that skeleton archers can dispel them with their normal attack.

(4) Some useful rage spirit skills:

Rock spirit - develop ground spike as much as possible (available at lv 8). At the end it deals 1000 damages to all targets (double for mages). The wall is nice for delaying an advancing monster stack - don't bother upgrading the wall as it will be demolished easily anyway.

Poison spirit - evil shoal is great for early-mid game. Glot's armor is nice when you want to save some troops. Again don't bother upgrading it.

Ice spirit - develop Ice orb into the HP1700 version. It is a great battle opener as a great distraction and shooter blocker. Just drop it in the middle of shooters. The ice walls are great for blocking the AI.

Death spirit - develop Black Hole to the fullest. I am not very familiar with Time Back yet - dunno whether it is useful.

(5) Level up priority

Level 1-5
Attack > Rage > Mana > Leadership > Defense = Intelligence

Level 6-30
Leadership > Attack > Rage > Mana > Defense = Intelligence

(6) Skill priority

Might line:
Good skills: Anger, Tactics, Onslaught, Night operation

Mind line:
Good skills: Reserve
Try to max Learning and later on the Glory line. Get Diplomacy lv 1 (or even 2) to save you trouble from restocking.

Magic line:
Magic makes huge differences in battle even for a warrior. There are many good skills:
Distortion (lv 3 ASAP), chaos (lv 1 is enough. Get lv 2 when you have dragons), mana regeneration on the map, mana regeneration during battle, knowledge (+mana).

(7) General tips

- Troop conservation is the key. Use your wits to always cut down the loss to minimum, while still having a decent amount of rage and mana for the next battle.
- Fight the weaker enemies and avoid the stronger ones if you can. A very powerful foe can wipe out half of your stack - some precious units are hard to come by.
- Carry a large reserve of die-easy units in your starting roster (royal snakes, for example). So their number is always maxed.
- There are very few rage potions/recharge point compared to mana potions/springs. Therefore, keep all the un-upgraded items and the Goblin castle and use them ONLY to recharge your rage when needed.
- You can find better items than your own children starting from mid-game. There is no way to discard children unless you divorce your wife. Remove all items on her first.
- The AIs have a taste for the decoy units (hypnotized, ice orb, phantom, totem, etc.). Use them to absorb the damage.
- Melee attack accumulates rage points faster than ranged attack.
- Hire some high-initiative, high-speed units. They allow you to cast spells first, and while waiting they can act twice in a row.
- Do as many quests as possibles. There are great rewards (items, runes, new creature for sale) in many quests.

[t0nedude]

Actually, it doesn't quite work that way. You can't just look at it from "what does it give me right now" standpoint. Let's put it this way: sure, at level 2, the 120 leadership is probably about 10-20% of your current leadership, even more than that, even. However, when you are level 30, your leadership will probably be around 25k, meaning that the 120 leadership is now only 0.48% of your leadership, where as the +1 attack is still an increase of 3.33% damage, better by a factor of 6. Attack and other stat upgrades (with the possible exception of mana and, less likely, int) are vastly better choices for the first 10-15 levels, mathematically. Assuming an average ending leadership of 25k, the first time leadership is more valuable than attack is level 14, where the 840 leadership becomes 3.36% of your ending leadership, only a narrow advantage over attack. Beyond that, go for leadership without question.

Actually you are incorrect and my original post still stands. Not being funny, but have you actually played the game and got offered +120 leadership at high levels?

For a start and from experience, the leadership bonus you are offered at level up increases as your level increases. So you will NEVER be offered +120 leadership if you are level 30 (from your post) if you were then your math would be correct, but you're not offered 120 at higher levels, it's always much higher.

I can't remember the exact level up, but as an example when I went from level 15 to 16 I was offered 840 or 960 leadership, I can't remember exactly. It has always been much higher than +120, and increases every time. As a comparison I have never been offered more than attack+1 at any level up.

Tony.

[t0nedude]

I am now further into the game (lv 25). Let me attempt to answer my own questions in case it is helps other new players:

................
(5) Level up priority

Level 1-5
Attack > Rage > Mana > Leadership > Defense = Intelligence
..............


Did you read my post?

For a Warrior build, you're placing Rage,Mana and Attack above Leadership for level ups? :confused:

Leadership is the most important, as statistically you get the biggest benefit to your army, but if that's not important to your build then to each his own.

Tony.

[Ryastar]

Actually you are incorrect and my original post still stands. Not being funny, but have you actually played the game and got offered +120 leadership at high levels?

For a start and from experience, the leadership bonus you are offered at level up increases as your level increases. So you will NEVER be offered +120 leadership if you are level 30 (from your post) if you were then your math would be correct, but you're not offered 120 at higher levels, it's always much higher.

I can't remember the exact level up, but as an example when I went from level 15 to 16 I was offered 840 or 960 leadership, I can't remember exactly. It has always been much higher than +120, and increases every time. As a comparison I have never been offered more than attack+1 at any level up.

Tony.

Dude, did you even READ MY POST? Much less, notice the fact that i have been active on the boards since october, and have played the game through completely 3.5 times? Where do you get off saying that with your three posts, and complete inattention to what i actually said?

Let me just clarify all of what i said, because you are clearly terminally brain impaired. The leadership offered at a level up is (60, 50, 40)*your level, with those three numbers corresponding to warrior, paladin, and mage, respectively. I know that i didn't say that part in my post, because i assumed you already knew that. Now that we have established that baseline, let's look again at what i said:

At level 2, the leadership option, for a warrior, will be 120 leadership. That looks nice when you are level 2, because your leadership is ~400, and the 120 is therefore 30% of your leadership. HOWEVER, ONCE YOU ARE LEVEL THIRTY, THAT SAME 120 LEADERSHIP FROM LEVEL TWO IS ONLY 0.48% OF YOUR 25000 LEADERSHIP. I am NOT saying that at level 30, you will get the opportunity to gain 120 leadership, i am saying that the 120 leadership that you got back at level 2 is no longer as valuable as it once was. What i was saying is that you can't just look at the here and now, cause the leadership you take now will lose its value later, because it won't form as significant a portion of your leadership. Attack is therefore more valuable until level 14, when (assuming a final leadership of 25k) the leadership offered is 3.36% of your ending leadership, which is slightly more than the 3.33% damage increase from +1 attack (of course, this is assuming that a % more leadership will increase your damage by that %, which is likely not far from the truth, but is difficult to prove mathematically).

Please excuse my excessive use of caps. Your answer REALLY annoyed me.

[jwallstone]

Yeah, it annoyed me too, and I wasn't even involved in the discussion. No need for the smugness either, especially when he's got it wrong.

[t0nedude]

Dude, did you even READ MY POST? Much less, notice the fact that i have been active on the boards since october, and have played the game through completely 3.5 times? Where do you get off saying that with your three posts, and complete inattention to what i actually said?

Let me just clarify all of what i said, because you are clearly terminally brain impaired. The leadership offered at a level up is (60, 50, 40)*your level, with those three numbers corresponding to warrior, paladin, and mage, respectively. I know that i didn't say that part in my post, because i assumed you already knew that. Now that we have established that baseline, let's look again at what i said:

At level 2, the leadership option, for a warrior, will be 120 leadership. That looks nice when you are level 2, because your leadership is ~400, and the 120 is therefore 30% of your leadership. HOWEVER, ONCE YOU ARE LEVEL THIRTY, THAT SAME 120 LEADERSHIP FROM LEVEL TWO IS ONLY 0.48% OF YOUR 25000 LEADERSHIP. I am NOT saying that at level 30, you will get the opportunity to gain 120 leadership, i am saying that the 120 leadership that you got back at level 2 is no longer as valuable as it once was. What i was saying is that you can't just look at the here and now, cause the leadership you take now will lose its value later, because it won't form as significant a portion of your leadership. Attack is therefore more valuable until level 14, when (assuming a final leadership of 25k) the leadership offered is 3.36% of your ending leadership, which is slightly more than the 3.33% damage increase from +1 attack (of course, this is assuming that a % more leadership will increase your damage by that %, which is likely not far from the truth, but is difficult to prove mathematically).

Please excuse my excessive use of caps. Your answer REALLY annoyed me.

I did read your ******* post.

I understand what you are saying now, and if you had mentioned this earlier in the terms above things might have been stayed civil, and not degenerated as they have done.

My original posts were only ever meant to help, however looking at your logic I can't argue with it and stand corrected.

But I will NOT accept being insulted before a genuine discussion has taken place.

Excuse me for thinking this board was populated by patient and intelligent people who love an intelligent game, great game. I won't be making that mistake twice.

Adios. I'm out of here.

[Ryastar]

I did read your ******* post.

I understand what you are saying now, and if you had mentioned this earlier in the terms above things might have been stayed civil, and not degenerated as they have done.

My original posts were only ever meant to help, however looking at your logic I can't argue with it and stand corrected.

But I will NOT accept being insulted before a genuine discussion has taken place.

Excuse me for thinking this board was populated by patient and intelligent people who love an intelligent game, great game. I won't be making that mistake twice.

Adios. I'm out of here.

It is populated by such, however, we (well, I) do tend to get touchy when we (I) ourselves (myself) are (am) insulted first. I am sorry that i reacted so strongly, but this is not the first time (and likely will not be the last) that i took the time and trouble to write a well-reasoned and reasonably articulate post, only to be met with insults. I see that I over-reacted in this case, that you did not mean to be offensive, but i found the first line of your response to be highly insulting, and so i responded in kind. Again, I apologize for my words. I would also highly appreciate an apology from you.

[Sensemaker]

1. get the FAN MANUAL (translated to ENG, if you can't read russian :) ) - be the fan manual you bible (all spells/atrefacts/skills and rage skills are there)


I googled "fan manual" and "king's bounty: the legend" and found a link that was supposed to lead to an English translation to this manual. However, the link was down. Could you please tell us where to find it? Like you suggested, many fans could benefit from it.

Sensemaker

[maltz]

Did you read my post?

For a Warrior build, you're placing Rage,Mana and Attack above Leadership for level ups? :confused:

Leadership is the most important, as statistically you get the biggest benefit to your army, but if that's not important to your build then to each his own.

Tony.

I not only read your post, but also digested your post throughly along with others. I appreciate your inputs, but I like my conclusion better, especially now I've finished a game on Hard. :-P You can find my own analysis on Leadership vs. Attack dilemma on this board, which should explain my conclusion in some detail.

[SeomanCC]

Actually you are incorrect and my original post still stands. Not being funny, but have you actually played the game and got offered +120 leadership at high levels?

For a start and from experience, the leadership bonus you are offered at level up increases as your level increases. So you will NEVER be offered +120 leadership if you are level 30 (from your post) if you were then your math would be correct, but you're not offered 120 at higher levels, it's always much higher.

I can't remember the exact level up, but as an example when I went from level 15 to 16 I was offered 840 or 960 leadership, I can't remember exactly. It has always been much higher than +120, and increases every time. As a comparison I have never been offered more than attack+1 at any level up.

Tony.


Dude, what he is saying, is that the 120 leadership you were offered at level 2 (which amounted to 10% army strength at level 2) only amounts to like .4% army strength when you are looking back at level 30. The +1 attack remains a 3.3% damage increase whether you are level 2 or level 30.

He is absolutely correct and when balancing your level-up picks over 30 levels, you should ABSOLUTELY favor leadership more strongly in the later levels. The benefits of +1 str/def/int diminish with every level as the amount of leadership offered increases proportionally.

[Vilk]

Actually, it doesn't quite work that way. You can't just look at it from "what does it give me right now" standpoint. Let's put it this way: sure, at level 2, the 120 leadership is probably about 10-20% of your current leadership, even more than that, even. However, when you are level 30, your leadership will probably be around 25k, meaning that the 120 leadership is now only 0.48% of your leadership, where as the +1 attack is still an increase of 3.33% damage, better by a factor of 6. Attack and other stat upgrades (with the possible exception of mana and, less likely, int) are vastly better choices for the first 10-15 levels, mathematically. Assuming an average ending leadership of 25k, the first time leadership is more valuable than attack is level 14, where the 840 leadership becomes 3.36% of your ending leadership, only a narrow advantage over attack. Beyond that, go for leadership without question.

Yes but the problem with that sort of approach is that during 28 levels your choice was weaker than another choice:
At level 30 you get 30*60 = 1680
At level 28 you get 28*60 = 1800
Sum = 3480

25000 - 3480 = 21520
At level 12 you get 12*60 = 720
That's is 3.35% ie already a better choice than attack +1.

So if we suppose all this math is correct, the solution you quote is less good during 28 levels than the one I quote (start choose leadership since level 12 instead of 14). And yes my solution would be less good during 26 levels than a solution starting using leadership since level 10... And so on.

You can argue that the end is harder but is it really? Additionally is being more efficient during 28 levels worthless, probably in this game. But for example if money was important in the game then saving more money during 28 levels would largely counter balance the weaker attack during the last two levels.

I won't enter in detail but if we look at the average efficiency in the whole game and not only at the end like you did, your approach will be a quite weaker choice.

One question, where is explained the math behind the 3.3%?

[Vilk]

Moreover about this "no leadership" during 13 levels, it isn't only a weaker choice than another method during 28 levels but also it takes a quite huge approximation that only attack care.

If you don't take Leadership during 12 levels and starts only at 14 this will be
60*(2+4+6+8+10+12) = 60*14*3 = 2520 Leadership you don't have at the end.

So that's 10.1% less units if you use 25k as a final base, 10.1% lower life or 10.1% higher command cost for anything but attack.

Well that's a quite huge approximation. If a good player never get hit then I wonder why he couldn't manage quite well the alternative.

I don't say that the no leadership during 13 levels choice isn't ok, just that it has also negative points and that alternative like always Leadership certainly worth roughly the same.

EDIT: And even "worse" in fact the "take always Leadership" method offers 11.2% more of anything but attack than the "don't take Leadership during 13 levels" method. In fact with a minus of 2520, the Leadership base becomes 22480 giving in fact 11.2%. Yeah the same than 10.1% less but still it's in fact 11.2% more.

EDIT2: All of that also don't consider low level units use. When attack < defense the minus is quickly cap ie at -10. That means that -17 or -10 is the same and in this case the additional +7 in attack is worthless. Sure it's not the majority of the case but still quite significant if you enjoy low level units. One more point in favor of the "take always Leadership" method.

[jwallstone]

When attack < defense, it is not capped at -10. It is capped at -60, for a 2/3 reduction in damage, just like attack > defense is capped at +60.

[Vilk]

When attack < defense, it is not capped at -10. It is capped at -60, for a 2/3 reduction in damage, just like attack > defense is capped at +60.

+60 with 3.3% malus for each point and you get a 300% malus of damages with weaker units? Obviously that's not the right point.
Tipple damages (attack > defense) and Third damages (attack < defense) si clearly not symmetrical. Between 300% and 100% there's 200%. 200/3.3 = 60.

Between 100 and 33% there's 66%. 66/3.3 = 20. Lol ok 20 not 10. :grin:

Now the point if I remember well is that in fact it's more complicated when defense > attack, except that each point worth much less than 3.3% anyway. So it's still quite a big approximation to look only at attack and to forget the weak units point when you look at character level up management.

[jwallstone]

That's the wrong way to think about Attack and Defense. You can't simply subtract the bonuses. Between 100 and 33%, there is indeed a 66% difference. But you need Defense-Attack=60 in order to get that 66% reduction. Why? Because each point of defense gives a smaller % than the previous one. Having D-A=60 reduces damage to 33.3%, while D-A=59 gives 33.7%, only a 0.4% difference.

Now, you're probably thinking that means Defense is worth less the more you have. But that's completely the wrong way to think about it. In fact, this system is completely fair and values Defense and Attack equally. Like I said, you can't just take the DIFFERENCE between the percents. For example, with A-D=30, you get a 100% bonus to damage, doubling your damage. But if D-A=30 gave a 100% reduction, that means you get ZERO damage, making you invincible against that troop. Clearly, this is not equal and would make Defense much more useful than Attack.

In fact, both Defense and Attack are equally valued. Attack increases damage output by 3.3% per point, while Defense increase how long you live by 3.3%. Give a troop 30 more defense, it'll live 100% longer against all attacks. It's very simple. In fact, the whole business about having different equations if D<A and if D>A can be misleading. They both ALWAYS give 3.3% more damage or 3.3% more life, regardless of what the other troop's stats are.

If you look at it mathematically, Attack helps as follows: Damage = BaseDamage * (1+A/30). Now, if Defense equals Attack, then the troop should do BaseDamage, right? So you divide by (1 + D/30), and voila, you have Damage=BaseDamage. This also tells you what the formula for defense should be: Damage = BaseDamage / (1+D/30). That's why Defense gives less % difference the more you have: because it gives a factor of 1/(1+D/30). You can see for yourself that if you take the derivative, you get 1/(30*(1+D/30)^2). But the % difference doesn't matter, it's still giving you 3.3% more life with each point! In fact, if Defense modified the unit's life instead of the attacker's damage, you could have it simply increase hit points by 3.3% for the purposes of that attack rather than reduce damage and get the exact same overall effect.

[Vilk]

I wonder from what you deduce I was comparing attack and defense but that wasn't the point. The point was to compare Leadership and Attack.

Anyway you just confirm what I was saying, that an attack point doesn't worth 3.3% damages but less because of the case of Defense > Attack. That's exactly what I was trying to explain.

That put in question quite a lot the reasoning arguing that until level 14 Leadership doesn't worth much to be choose. Not too mention some other points linked to a bigger stack like some special unit skills linked to stack size and not at all to damages.

I don't want say that some variation like not pick much Leadership during first levels isn't a good option but it's not clear at all that it's the best and the single best.

EDIT: And about attack vs defense that wasn't my point, but about it, yes it's obvious it's symmetrical from a math point of view as it's just a difference between the two. But people argue that attack is still better because with good tactics your attack is more important, you take care to attack first and even if enemy stack counter attack it is already reduced, you even take care to attack more than you get attacked.

[Razorflame]

well obviously i hardly get attacked myself by enemy stacks
since i use slow or w/e spells i have avaible to make SURE i attack first!

and with that
ATTACK>defense

the hit is worth a penny :P
it removes a portion of the stack and completely vaporsied it
so what use is defense?:)

[jwallstone]

I understand that your larger point was about Leadership. My comment wasn't related to that. I just wanted to explain thoroughly the math behind the two stats, since you were calculating Defense bonuses completely incorrectly (like the -66% = 20 Def). This is something that I see all the time whenever this mechanic is used, from KB to HOMM and even Warcraft 3. I wanted to explain it in detail for everyone's benefit, not just yours.

On the issue of Attack vs. Defense, I completely agree that Attack is better. Over the course of the game, you should be dealing a lot more damage than you're receiving, if you're playing it right. My point wasn't about which is BETTER, but rather what they actually DO in terms of the math of combat. People in these forums are always (correctly) saying attack is better than defense, but then some people start thinking that defense is mathematically less advantageous, because it gives a smaller percent in damage reduction than 3.3%, rather than it being due to game tactics. I see it all the time, so again, I'm just explaining for everyone's benefit.

[Vilk]

Ok I didn't knew the formula and stupidly didn't read with enough care your post, first point is someone can paste the bit of code involved here? I don't like at all debate about something I don't have under my eyes.

Second I have to admit it I don't understand anything of your explanation, I feel a little idiot but prefer be frank if we are going to discuss that more. :)

I'd be agree that defense and value have the same value because it's just the difference of the two. But your attack and the opponent defense are more important than your defense and opponent attack. Just for tactical reason.

But I cannot be agree (don't understand a word of it) that enemy defense > my attack is symmetrical than enemy defense < my attack. In first case you fit 60 between 100% and 66% in second case you fit 60 between 100% and 300%. And look at life in one case and attack in another case means nothing for me. Not to mention that from what I read here the code isn't at all symmetrical, either it's badly programed either it's not symmetrical.

For me it's like if you compare cherry and apple and explain that ok the apple is bigger but they are the same because the cherry has more sugar. Don't despair make me understand that anyway, mmm and the original bit of code involved would help a lot.

EDIT: Quote that it's not attack vs defense but "enemy defense > my attack" vs "enemy defense < my attack". One more time, attack vs defense means nothing because it's just a difference of the two so obviously symmetrical and no need to look at from a life or attack point of view.