New project from Luthier: DCS WWII [Target complete]

[planespotter]

Wish him well...

http://bobgamehub.blogspot.in/2013/09/luthier-announces-new-project.html




Kickstarter link

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944?ref=recently_launched






2,553 Backers

$158,897 pledged of $100,000 goal

0
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Back This Project $1 minimum pledge

This project will only be funded if at least $100,000 is pledged by Saturday Oct 5, 1:20pm EDT.

Funding period
Sep 5, 2013 - Oct 5, 2013 (30 days)







.

[SlipBall]

I wish him good luck!!...:)

[Feathered_IV]

Is there an original source for this report? Luthier had said there would be a massive reveal with a strict deadline of yesterday.

[SlipBall]

Is there an original source for this report? Luthier had said there would be a massive reveal with a strict deadline of yesterday.


Yes here, and he met his first deadline :-P
http://forums.eagle.ru/index.php

[Feathered_IV]

Sweet. Thanks for the link SB. ;)
The scale of the September 1st launch may have been slightly exaggerated. I'd thought there would have been more to it, going by what luthier had said previously.
I'll be interested to see the quickstarter presentation on Thursday. I think I'll want to know quite a bit more about the project before investing. Who is leading, who is responsible for what and some key timelines and mission goals would be good. Now that we have seen what can be achieved in a very short time by a determined team with an existing engine, the done-when-it's-done approach may not attract as many backers as one might hope.

[Chivas]

Stretch goals.... depends on kickstarter monies.
I'm assuming the large Normandy map will include England.



Luthier....
"We'll see how well we do with kickstarter. Core game will have one large Normandy terrain. If we hit stretch goals, we'll have more maps.

Less than a year from now, or a bit more time if we hit stretch goals."

[Screamadelica]

This looks very promising. Now we have a choice between two different styles of flight sim, one that aims for a detailed CEM experience in the style of Cliffs Of Dover and another that will offer a more simplified approach. Personally, with the financial commitment required to purchasing a series of planes and add-ons to eventually cover the whole range of WW2 theatres, I would prefer to be making a long term commitment to something that offers a little more than " Push Button I to start the engine ".

I hope this project goes well for Ilya, as it has the potential to be a true successor to the IL2 series. If all is good with the presentation on the 5th September, then they will definitely be getting some of my cash to see this game reach it's potential.

It's just going to be so hard waiting for the day when it finally arrives! Still there's always Malta to look forward to. :grin:

[Feathered_IV]

Speaking of Malta, is there a link where one might follow development? I've been working on a detailed Malta map for Il-2 and would very much like to see how they are getting on.

[SlipBall]

This looks very promising. Now we have a choice between two different styles of flight sim, one that aims for a detailed CEM experience in the style of Cliffs Of Dover and another that will offer a more simplified approach. Personally, with the financial commitment required to purchasing a series of planes and add-ons to eventually cover the whole range of WW2 theatres, I would prefer to be making a long term commitment to something that offers a little more than " Push Button I to start the engine ".

I hope this project goes well for Ilya, as it has the potential to be a true successor to the IL2 series. If all is good with the presentation on the 5th September, then they will definitely be getting some of my cash to see this game reach it's potential.

It's just going to be so hard waiting for the day when it finally arrives! Still there's always Malta to look forward to. :grin:


Nice analysis and I feel the same way...we can't let this opportunity die

[jamesdietz]

I'll keep my fingers crossed but BoS is alot closer!

[NaBkin]

Wow! If the kickstarter video is just slightly convincing, Im ready to invest cash for sure. Evreybody deserves a second chance and the text reads very promissing.

[Redroach]

Kickstarter funded? Oh poor blokes! :rolleyes:

[Chivas]

I like the idea of Kickstarter, where a combat flight sim enthusiast makes a design decision rather than a bean counter.

Luthier's latest comments about kickstarter below.


Luthier
Hello everyone,

We’ll be launching our kickstarter in about 24 hours, or, in the worst case, about 30 hours.

If you’re not sure about what DCS WWII: Europe 1944 is, please read the official announcement or join the discussion here.

There are a few very important points we’d like to make:

1. The project is at a very early stage.
Normally, video game development goes something like this. You go through some initial planning and discussion. You agree on budget and schedule, then begin the development. After some months, or maybe even years, you arrive at a playable mock-up or maybe a pre-alpha version. You announce the project, show what you have to the fans, and move forward.
With DCS WWII, we’re doing something different. We are in the very early initial design stage. If things were done the normal way, we’d be about six months away from an official announcement.
Why then are we doing this? Because we are not working with a publisher. When we looked at our budget and our schedule, we realized we’d be cutting it very close and we’d really need a bit more money and a bit more time to really do things comfortably. So we decided to go the kickstarter route. It should give us the freedom to really perfect our game; and perhaps even allow us to make a larger product if we manage to hit our stretch goals.
And so, we’re back to the main point. The project is very, very early. Normally we would not show it to the public at this stage.
We could wait six months and go kickstarter then – but then we’d lose the stretch goal option. If we don’t start on, say, a flyable B-17 today, if we wait six months to begin, then we delay its release by six months as well.
So, we know how the community lives to scrutinize every pixel and every word. So please keep in mind that things are not just WIP. They’re so far away from final, they’re all the way back at the other end. They’re “initial”.
Kickstarter changes a lot of things on our end, so please accept it as a change on yours. We’re showing you the project six months before we normally would. Please keep that in mind in all future discussion.

2. Kickstarter can fail.
Here’s how it works.
We are asking for a relatively minor initial sum on kickstarter which is needed to put in a few extra features and really polish and perfect the product.
We obviously need a large number of people to back the project to even hit the initial sum.
If you back the project, but over the course of the kickstarter campaign we fail to reach the initial goal, then the campaign fails and all the money is returned to backers. We the developers receive nothing.
However if we do manage to excite enough fans to back the project in the next 30 days, and we hit our initial goal, then this opens the road to the real meat of the campaign: stretch goals. All money raised will go towards development. If we manage to hit additional stretch goals, we will add a lot more exciting stuff to the project, most importantly new aircraft and new gameplay maps.
However that will require a significant community effort. Larger stretch goals will require thousands and thousands of backers; it’d require the equivalent of everyone who ever bought DCS: P-51 to come in with the purchase price they paid in the next 30 days and back our kickstarter to hit some of the larger stretch goals.
Possible? We hope so. But we’ll need help.

3. We need your help!
What we really need for our project to succeed is exposure.
If you back our project, please tell your friends about it.
Even if you cannot back our project, but are excited about it, tell your friends.
DCS WWII: Europe 1944 requires a large concentrated community effort to become successful.
If you are a journalist, please get in touch.
If you are a member of a flight sim community, please mention our kickstarter on your forums. If your friends have questions, send them here, or send us to them.
We only speak English and Russian. If you are a member of an international flight sim community, help us spread the word in your language!
Please help us get there. We cannot do it on our own!

Thank you very much. We, everyone, myself personally, are unbelievably excited about tomorrow. See you then!
__________________________________________________ ___________________

[zapatista]

good to see DCS and luthier are already making good progress on their ww2 flightsim project :)

to obtain extra funding by using kickstarter is a good idea, but i really hope they concentrate on getting their initial game out the door first (the normandy map)

they have one huge advantage in this project, DCS already provides a working flightsim environment for the main game elements that are usually very time consuming to develop. eg, the gfx and game engine, the physics of the flight models, ballistics for munitions, the ability to move ground troops/vehicles in a game environment, dynamic campaign, stable multiplayer netcode, etc... there is even already a p51 aircraft created by DCS, and a near finished fw190 soon to be released.

imho DCS and luthier should focus on quickly creating a single new map (normandy) and integrate all the great DCS working elements that already exist: then add some new ww2 objects, use the already existing p51 and fw190 as flyable planes, add a few new AI aircraft (so external models only), and quickly release their initial game. this will attract an initial group of customers/players that inject further funds, and create a working game environment for them to expand on. there are a large amount of DCS customers who have been asking for a ww2 flightsim expansion, and this is illustrated by the part of their customer base that was willing to buy a single ww2 aircraft (the p51) that didnt even have a ww2 environment for it to be used in. the worst possible scenario right now is this "stretch goals" business (if i understood it correctly), where you get ever bigger ideas that keep expanding and result in slipping time lines (as it did with SoW)

use the kickstarter funds to start creating a few additional aircraft (and a 2e map) that otherwise might take an additional 12 months to develop after the first game is released, yes, but to use kickstarter to delay releasing the initial ww2 sim (which integrates all the working DCS element that already exist) i'd say is a big NO !! if luthier and DCS waste the huge advantage they already have right now by being able to use the already working DCS elements, you might as well bring out the singing fat lady right now. a huge amount of goodwill was lost in the ww2 flightsim community by the ever slipping deadlines of SoW, and i dont think the bulk of the community is going to put up with lots of hype and promises of great things to come somewhere in the distant future, it would be a huge miscalculation for them to do so.

[Chivas]

I'm quite sure Luthier realizes that having people wait three more years because he met the kickstarter stretch goals would be a big problem, but that's not what he's saying. He saying whether we choose to believe him or not is.....he would hire extra people who would work in parallel to the existing people doing the basic sim, so that the additional material would be done relative close to the due date of the basic sims approx. one year timetable. I've probably poorly worded it, but I think most people would understand what I'm saying.

[SlipBall]

good to see DCS and luthier are already making good progress on their ww2 flightsim project :)

to obtain extra funding by using kickstarter is a good idea, but i really hope they concentrate on getting their initial game out the door first (the normandy map)

they have one huge advantage in this project, DCS already provides a working flightsim environment for the main game elements that are usually very time consuming to develop. eg, the gfx and game engine, the physics of the flight models, ballistics for munitions, the ability to move ground troops/vehicles in a game environment, dynamic campaign, stable multiplayer netcode, etc... there is even already a p51 aircraft created by DCS, and a near finished fw190 soon to be released.

imho DCS and luthier should focus on quickly creating a single new map (normandy) and integrate all the great DCS working elements that already exist: then add some new ww2 objects, use the already existing p51 and fw190 as flyable planes, add a few new AI aircraft (so external models only), and quickly release their initial game. this will attract an initial group of customers/players that inject further funds, and create a working game environment for them to expand on. there are a large amount of DCS customers who have been asking for a ww2 flightsim expansion, and this is illustrated by the part of their customer base that was willing to buy a single ww2 aircraft (the p51) that didnt even have a ww2 environment for it to be used in. the worst possible scenario right now is this "stretch goals" business (if i understood it correctly), where you get ever bigger ideas that keep expanding and result in slipping time lines (as it did with SoW)

use the kickstarter funds to start creating a few additional aircraft (and a 2e map) that otherwise might take an additional 12 months to develop after the first game is released, yes, but to use kickstarter to delay releasing the initial ww2 sim (which integrates all the working DCS element that already exist) i'd say is a big NO !! if luthier and DCS waste the huge advantage they already have right now by being able to use the already working DCS elements, you might as well bring out the singing fat lady right now. a huge amount of goodwill was lost in the ww2 flightsim community by the ever slipping deadlines of SoW, and i dont think the bulk of the community is going to put up with lots of hype and promises of great things to come somewhere in the distant future, it would be a huge miscalculation for them to do so.


I've been looking around over there recently, they seem to have a lot of problems...

[zapatista]

I'm quite sure Luthier realizes that having people wait three more years because he met the kickstarter stretch goals would be a big problem, but that's not what he's saying. He saying whether we choose to believe him or not is.....he would hire extra people who would work in parallel to the existing people doing the basic sim, so that the additional material would be done relative close to the due date of the basic sims approx. one year timetable. I've probably poorly worded it, but I think most people would understand what I'm saying.

i hope you'r right about the additional "kickstarter funded development" working in parallel with their main ww2 flightsim development project.

[zapatista]

I've been looking around over there recently, they seem to have a lot of problems...

like what ?

re DCS, i'd say the exact opposite. they are known for their solid track record in regularly producing new high quality combat flightsim elements. they do keep to their deadlines, work with a small team, and their larger more ambitious new projects (like their new gfx engine, EDGE) are not given a firm release date until very close to completion.

for the eager beavers they provide a beta product purchase system that provides significant advantages, not only do you get to play around with your new toy early, most beta stage releases are usually already pretty good and they will give you a significant discount on the final purchase price for doing so. cant be more fair then that imho :)

for their finished flightsim products, their netcode is solid, they have a good multiplayer function, a very advanced mission builder that provides a dynamic campaign function, and their avionics, flightmodels, and weapons systems and ballistics are very good (near military sim grade basically). my only gripe with them is that the modern era in flightsims is just not my cup 'a tea, and i'd wish they would focus more on ww2 or korean era (which we are about to receive now in the next year).

[SlipBall]

like what ?

re DCS, i'd say the exact opposite. they are known for their solid track record in regularly producing new high quality combat flightsim elements. they do keep to their deadlines, work with a small team, and their larger more ambitious new projects (like their new gfx engine, EDGE) are not given a firm release date until very close to completion.

for the eager beavers they provide a beta product purchase system that provides significant advantages, not only do you get to play around with your new toy early, most beta stage releases are usually already pretty good and they will give you a significant discount on the final purchase price for doing so. cant be more fair then that imho :)

for their finished flightsim products, their netcode is solid, they have a good multiplayer function, a very advanced mission builder that provides a dynamic campaign function, and their avionics, flightmodels, and weapons systems and ballistics are very good (near military sim grade basically). my only gripe with them is that the modern era in flightsims is just not my cup 'a tea, and i'd wish they would focus more on ww2 or korean era (which we are about to receive now in the next year).


Yea I looked again, was mostly inexperienced peoples with the problems

[vranac]

Good news :cool:

I'm sorry guys, I'm moving - divorce, trucks, division of property. In the new place internet is not connected, so communication is complex.

I will reply to all, but with delays.

Quote: Originally Posted by Steam
1. What size map are planning to release it in detail and compliance history and that of the place?
Cherbourg - Falaise - Rouen about.


Detailing is high. Some places are played 1-to-1. For example Pointe du Hoc is made with all the bunkers, trenches, cliffs, craters from bombs. Complies with staggering. Other important places of the city, the battlefields,we will also copy.
The rest of card - the similarity in the middle distance. Village-roads in the right places, but the home-streets will be averaged.

Quote: Originally Posted by Steam
2. How many man hours scheduled for the creation of one fighter from the ground until you are ready?


Too many :) Creating 3D models in general is going smooth, get the hand to do very quickly. But the programming and testing for a long time, especially by the standards of my old projects. We are trying to understand whether we can accelerate without losing quality, as we found with the 3D.

So about a one man year+ a couple of months, depending on the complexity of the systems.

Quote: Originally Posted by Steam
3. Tell us about DM.


Like in Musa[Mustang].

Quote: Originally Posted by Steam
4. How many people in the development team, who work full-time?


Now 9. After Kick will grow, as a result thereof.

Quote: Originally Posted by Steam
5. Who will communicate with the community?

Mua.

Quote: Originally Posted by Steam
6. Will Friday's update, or some other format?


Probably will, but Pipeline is very long. There will be many times when on the fair will have nothing to show.
"Vasja suffered all week with the chassis and Messer did not work out, and Peter zateksturil back armor to Spit" - update is not specifically good.

Quote: Originally Posted by Steam
7. In which city is the office and a team of developers?


Programmers are all in Moscow, the core of the team there. Also scattered 3D modelers - outsourcers around the planet.

Quote: Originally Posted by Elefant
Tell me please, what is planned bombers??


Unflyable B-17 at level 0.

A-26, Mosquito, and Ju-88 in the more expensive steps.

Flyable B-17 the last one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Theo
Question:
Planned new engine EDZH.
There-there "material" trees?


You mean, with collisions? Testing right now.

Quote: Originally Posted by lightningstrike
after Vagner said that he has no access to information about EDGE which develop there at some of the Minsk studio, thanks to this announcement even though there was a ray of hope about EDGE!

to date, this unexpected EDGE even able to produce 3D cube or triangle?

you can at least see one screen? whether it weighs 3D circle in the clouds or stand-maker in the grass ...


The engine is fully working Screens will be on the 5th of Normandy, houses, trenches, bunkers, statues, cliffs, sea, trees, etc.

[Feathered_IV]

Sounds fairly familiar. Similar arrangement to Pacific Fighters with semi-professional third party contributions from people around the world. Then Luthier overseeing the compilation of the accumulated bits.

[major_setback]

Oleg is back :-O

[SlipBall]

Waiting for my T-shirt...umm, and the sim of course :-P

[SlipBall]

like what ?

re DCS, i'd say the exact opposite. they are known for their solid track record in regularly producing new high quality combat flightsim elements. they do keep to their deadlines, work with a small team, and their larger more ambitious new projects (like their new gfx engine, EDGE) are not given a firm release date until very close to completion.

for the eager beavers they provide a beta product purchase system that provides significant advantages, not only do you get to play around with your new toy early, most beta stage releases are usually already pretty good and they will give you a significant discount on the final purchase price for doing so. cant be more fair then that imho :)

for their finished flightsim products, their netcode is solid, they have a good multiplayer function, a very advanced mission builder that provides a dynamic campaign function, and their avionics, flightmodels, and weapons systems and ballistics are very good (near military sim grade basically). my only gripe with them is that the modern era in flightsims is just not my cup 'a tea, and i'd wish they would focus more on ww2 or korean era (which we are about to receive now in the next year).


I just installed this, my first impressions are very high should have tried it sooner

[Les]

Did some quick calculations and going by the average amount pledged by the first 154 backers, they'd need about 1250-1300 more backers to reach their first goal. I have no idea if that's attainable or not, but I wish them all the best and have done my bit to help them on their way.

[KG26_Alpha]

"Oleg will act as the team’s advisor, distilling the wishes of the fans into design decisions, and making sure they properly translate into something that satisfies the fans today as well as in the long run.
As the team’s foremost expert on aircraft performance and WWII history, Oleg will act as the ultimate quality control on the game, ensuring it meets the highest possible standards of both historical accuracy and playability."



http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944?ref=recently_launched

Stump up 10 large for your VIP treatment.

[Artist]

Pledged my $40. It's worth a try (for him and me), isn't it?

[zapatista]

fantastic news, oleg is again involved with the new project !!

looks like the 40$ payment for the basic version of the game is a really good deal, you'd get the full game in 12 months and all of the planes of the original release are included (compared to the 90$ of the RoF-BS project and their pay to win sales strategy for a much less ). DCs has been known over the years to provide really good deals on the prepaid beta participation, they have a proven track record on releasing games on time, and it is MUCH cheaper then buying it later at release time !

i am joining the funding with 100$, and i see that as paying 50$ for the game and giving them 50$ in good-will money to help the project along and make it more likely to succeed. many of us here (il2 series fans) previously said we'd be willing to pay extra to get full printed aircraft manuals and game documentation, which is what the 70 and 80$ options give you. well worth it for those that want a deluxe version of the new simulator and all the hard copy manuals :)

folks, what luthier says in that clip is probably right (sadly), this is our last best chance to ever get a software developer to launch into creating such an ambitious fully featured and ultra realistic military grade ww2 simulation project. and with the new EDGE grafix engine near finished already, luthier is basically building the ww2 era "world" for it, not creating a new game and gfx engine from scratch (DCS already has a campaign engine etc). so if you ever want that level of ww2 era flight simulator to succeed, and dont want to wait for 10 years and have DCS add one piece at a time in slow motion to their ww2 era project, this is the time to put some money into it and help it accelerate and become a reality in just 12 months time

with the financial mismanagement that happened with the SoW-CoD project, many software houses would be triple shy before they ever consider launching into anything as ambitious as that again (or they choose to create a money making dumbded down arcade project instead), and having luthier be able to team up with DCS to keep building our dream sim is a god sent golden opportunity that is not to be missed, no-one will ever attempt this if it doesnt succeed in raising the funds they need :)

tell your friends, borrow money from your dad, sell your cats and dogs if you need to, but this is the time to act or shutup forever !! whatever joy and pleasure you have had from the il2 series over the years, this is the time to give something back and dig deep and help our hobby to continue for many more years, its now or never :)

[swiss]

with the financial mismanagement that happened with the SoW-CoD project


And who was responsible for that?
I would really like to know who is would be responsible for planning, leading and controlling this project. Furthermore I am pretty sure 100k will be nowhere near enough to finance the the basic planes and map he mentioned.

They are visionaries, brilliant engineers on their field, yet I fail to see how they want so ensure they stay on track.

[Feathered_IV]

And who was responsible for that?
I would really like to know who is would be responsible for planning, leading and controlling this project. Furthermore I am pretty sure 100k will be nowhere near enough to finance the the basic planes and map he mentioned.

They are visionaries, brilliant engineers on their field, yet I fail to see how they want so ensure they stay on track.

This is my major concern. The Il-2 series was undeniably brilliant. However it was unable to reach even greater heights due to some very poor decisions of internal management and a series of wasteful, disorganised development cycles.

I wish the DCS WW2 team luck, but I cannot see how they can hope to deliver such a complex product in even less time than it took to develop the Aces expansion pack. I suspect they are again showing the very best of intentions, but making promises that they will soon find they cannot keep.

[billeinstein]

Their job
ED is gracious enough to allow us to use their existing P-51 and Dora in RRG's DCS WWII product. Actually, RRG is partially responsible for the Dora (our guys built the cockpit) but all the rights belong to ED.
http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=84927&d=1374251684

[JG52Uther]

I'm in! Can never have too many flight sims IMO.

[Chivas]

And who was responsible for that?
I would really like to know who is would be responsible for planning, leading and controlling this project. Furthermore I am pretty sure 100k will be nowhere near enough to finance the the basic planes and map he mentioned.

They are visionaries, brilliant engineers on their field, yet I fail to see how they want so ensure they stay on track.

I'm sure there is plenty of blame to spread around between the IC investors, Oleg, Luthier, and other individual team members. That said Maddox Games managed to create an awesome sandbox that Team Fusion is now finishing/refining proving the potential so many of us couldn't/wouldn't see.

Personally I think Kickstarter is a wonderful tool for combat sim developers to keep control of their efforts, instead of eventually handing over complete control to investors. It also demands the developer become far more responsible for their own actions, and not depending on the investor for that next paycheck, as the kickstarter monies do not keep coming in. We are now the prime investors, not the beancounters. I'd much rather see my monies in the developers pockets as apposed to investors who have more than enough money of their own. ;)

[MiloMorai]

$100,000

Standard project features


$375,000

Everything at the previous level, plus:
A flyable Hawker Typhoon IB
A flyable FW.190A-5
Single-player campaign for the Typhoon
Single-player campaign for the FW.190


$550,000

Everything at the previous level, plus:
A flyable Douglas A-26B-15 Invader
A flyable Messerschmitt Me.262A-1
Ardennes, new large gameplay map
Single-player campaign for the A-26
Single-player campaign for the Me.262
A Luftwaffe Fighter and a US Fighter campaign for the Battle of the Bulge.


$750,000

Everything at the previous level, plus:
A flyable Lockheed P-38J-15
A flyable de Havilland Mosquito FB.VI
Single-player campaign for the P-38
Single-player campaign for the Mosquito


$1,000,000

Everything at the previous level, plus:
A flyable Boeing B-17
A flyable Luftwaffe plane (Me 410 A or Ju 88, as voted for by the backers)
Romania, new large gameplay map
4 new single-player campaigns for the new aircraft and theaters


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944

[JG52Uther]

If anyone is on the fence:There is a nice competition at the ATAG forum for pledgers.A set of MFG Crosswind rudder pedals is on offer ffrom Bliss.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5635&p=58337#post58337

[Art-J]

like what ?

re DCS, i'd say the exact opposite. they are known for their solid track record in regularly producing new high quality combat flightsim elements. they do keep to their deadlines, work with a small team, and their larger more ambitious new projects (like their new gfx engine, EDGE) are not given a firm release date until very close to completion.

for the eager beavers they provide a beta product purchase system that provides significant advantages, not only do you get to play around with your new toy early, most beta stage releases are usually already pretty good and they will give you a significant discount on the final purchase price for doing so. cant be more fair then that imho :)

for their finished flightsim products, their netcode is solid, they have a good multiplayer function, a very advanced mission builder that provides a dynamic campaign function, and their avionics, flightmodels, and weapons systems and ballistics are very good (near military sim grade basically). my only gripe with them is that the modern era in flightsims is just not my cup 'a tea, and i'd wish they would focus more on ww2 or korean era (which we are about to receive now in the next year).

Ehm, that's a bit of a rose-tinted-glasses look over here, especially re. regularity and keeping the dealines. Nowadays, ED guys are mostly known for two things: a) detailed study sims (I'm OK with that); b) neverending stories of "we're working on it", serioulsy delayed releases and neverending beta-status projects (I'm not OK with that). Ironically, the only modules, which were built and released reasonably fast this year (UH-1 and Mi-8TW) were made by 3rd party company (Belsimtek). The upcoming detailed MiG-21 module is also a 3rd party job.

Their GFX engine has also never been properly optimized for modern hardware, hence everybody waiting for EDGE (almost like for some kind of Holy Grail, which will finally speed up the development in the DCS universe).

These factors, coupled with questionable record of Luthier (I'm thinking about his management of PF and CoD) makes me a bit cautious about this upcoming WWII project. I'd love to see it completed, but for now, I'll just wait and see how things unfold.

[Les]

...I would really like to know who is would be responsible for planning, leading and controlling this project. Furthermore I am pretty sure 100k will be nowhere near enough to finance the the basic planes and map he mentioned...

From the Kickstarter page -

"The money being raised (via Kickstarter) is only a portion of the development budget. The majority of the programming, including engine improvements, new landscape engine, large chunk of aircraft and object programming, some aircraft art, and more, are costs (on top of the Kickstarter budget) that the team is funding internally.

The initial kickstarter goal is needed to fund a longer more extensive beta testing period for the game, giving all its components extra polish, and to make the game landscape more alive by creating a larger variety of ground objects and vehicles, and spending more time to hand-craft various historical areas such as accurate recreations of more coastline villages, important bridges, unique airfields, and more."

As far as planning, leading and controlling the project -

"...Oleg Maddox will act as the team’s advisor, distilling the wishes of the fans into design decisions, and making sure they properly translate into something that satisfies the fans today as well as in the long run. As the team’s foremost expert on aircraft performance and WWII history, Oleg will act as the ultimate quality control on the game, ensuring it meets the highest possible standards of both historical accuracy and playability."

"...Ilya Shevchenko will act as the project’s lead producer. He will take part in all design decisions while managing the day-to-day operations, assigning and tracking tasks, and keeping everyone on their toes. As a member of a relatively small team, Ilya will, as always, dabble in most tasks first-hands, working on the game’s landscapes, building missions, managing voice recordings, and generally making sure things get done."

"Igor Tishin is the driving force behind the successes of Eagle Dynamics over the past 20 years...Igor will oversee all engine and flight dynamics work on the project. Putting the same effort into the historical accuracy and realism as he did into the recent DCS: P-51 release, Igor will ensure the new WWII aircraft built for this project will satisfy the most discriminating expert."

[Les]

...I'd love to see it completed, but for now, I'll just wait and see how things unfold.

I agree there's cause for uncertainty, but this is a situation where sitting back and waiting to see what happens is actually detrimental to the chances of the thing working at all. If the Kickstarter campaign fails, nobody even gets the chance to see what the developers can come up with.

In the past developers and publishers would put out a product and if it failed financially, at least you still had the product (you just wouldn't get any sequels or add-ons). Nowadays, with investors less willing to take risks, the end-user has to pay upfront just to get anyone working on the project at all.

Remember too that if the Kickstarter campaign fails, no money is actually taken from those who pledged. In that way, the initial Kickstarter campaign is just as much about seeing if there's an audience at all anymore for detailed combat flight sims as it is about raising money for a particular project.

In my opinion DCS:WWII and BoS should both be supported just to keep the genre of realistic combat flight sims alive and keep the door open for further advancements and developments in the field. The developers have their responsibilities and roles to play in that, but so too does the end-user.

This isn't the time for indulging in skepticism and doubt or for sitting back and letting the cards fall where they may. If people want to keep flying in these games/sims, the developers need to keep coming up with the goods and the end-users need to let it be known in advance that there's an audience/market for them.

[lensman1945]

I agree there's cause for uncertainty, but this is a situation where sitting back and waiting to see what happens is actually detrimental to the chances of the thing working at all. If the Kickstarter campaign fails, nobody even gets the chance to see what the developers can come up with.

In the past developers and publishers would put out a product and if it failed financially, at least you still had the product (you just wouldn't get any sequels or add-ons). Nowadays, with investors less willing to take risks, the end-user has to pay upfront just to get anyone working on the project at all.

Remember too that if the Kickstarter campaign fails, no money is actually taken from those who pledged. In that way, the initial Kickstarter campaign is just as much about seeing if there's an audience at all anymore for detailed combat flight sims as it is about raising money for a particular project.

In my opinion DCS:WWII and BoS should both be supported just to keep the genre of realistic combat flight sims alive and keep the door open for further advancements and developments in the field. The developers have their responsibilities and roles to play in that, but so too does the end-user.

This isn't the time for indulging in skepticism and doubt or for sitting back and letting the cards fall where they may. If people want to keep flying in these games/sims, the developers need to keep coming up with the goods and the end-users need to let it be known in advance that there's an audience/market for them.

Very well explained Les:grin:

[JG52Uther]

Luthier posted at kickstarter.ALL planes at DCS quality, and I would LOVE a flyable B17:

Also, a little clarification since a lot of people seem to be writing about this.
Here's what happens if we hit our base goal, but no stretch goals.
The final product that is released will have the following content:
FREE Flyable P-47
FREE Flyable Spitfire
FREE Flyable Bf.109
FREE Non-Flyable P-51 (can be made flyable for an additional fee)
FREE Non-Flyable FW.190D (can be made flyable for an additional fee)
FREE Non-Flyable B-17 (cannot be made flyable)
FREE Non-Flyable Me.262 (cannot be made flyable)
If you back the project at a $20 level, you will receive either the FW.190D or the P-51 as a flyable.
If you back the project at a $40 level, you will receive BOTH the FW.190D and the P-51 as flyables.
Now, if we hit stretch goals, then all additional aircraft will be seen by everyone as non-flyables, but will be available as a flyable for a fee. If you back at a $20 level, you will choose any ONE of the paid flyables. If you back at a $40 level, you will still receive ALL the paid flyables on release.
If we end up meeting our ultimate $1million stretch goal, that means you will receive 13 aircraft for backing at a $40 level or above.
And yes, all aircraft will be made to the same level of quality and high standards as the DCS P-51.

[Feathered_IV]

I haven't had much experience with DCS yet. I wonder how many B-17's the game engine could put into the air at any one time. Modern sims all seem to heading backwards in that respect.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I haven't had much experience with DCS yet. I wonder how many B-17's the game engine could put into the air at any one time. Modern sims all seem to heading backwards in that respect.

Not really.. It just seems to be the limited modern sims you play. I know ROF can't handle many objects, but Cliffs sure can..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xn1f7vnfxo

[Feathered_IV]

Neat. Thanks for the vid. I was thinking more of stock campaigns and the like on a typical recommended spec machine though. Would be very nice to face up against a few hundred Forts. One of my fonder memories from EAW days!

[Chivas]

Holy Shyte

[major_setback]

"Oleg will act as the team’s advisor, distilling the wishes of the fans into design decisions, and making sure they properly translate into something that satisfies the fans today as well as in the long run.
As the team’s foremost expert on aircraft performance and WWII history, Oleg will act as the ultimate quality control on the game, ensuring it meets the highest possible standards of both historical accuracy and playability."



http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944?ref=recently_launched

Stump up 10 large for your VIP treatment.

Mods, we could really do with this link being incorporated in the first post, so people can see that they are asking for money-support (it is not made clear in the original post), and also makes it easier to find the link if we want to pledge money; or follow it's progress.

Anyway, as of today (10th Sept 2013) they are half-way there in raising the minimum sum required, which I find very promising.


...

[KG26_Alpha]

Done

[major_setback]

Thank you very much Alpha!

[jamesdietz]

I'm in...with fingers crossed!

[AngryHatter]

Love RoF and very apprehensive about this.

[Bounder!]

Have to say I'm extremely excited about this, the P-51D from DCS is incredible, with attention to detail far beyond anything else out there. The flight model and CEM is unbelievable and is everything a flight sim should be. Take a look at the ingame tutorial for an engine start:

fn1xbahH_x0

The major thing that was holding it back was a lack of other player controlled aircraft and a ww2 environment. With a flyable FW-190-D9 to be released (I think next month) and then with this WW2 DCS release, it will take a hardcore study sim and turn it into the real deal.

Last year, with the cancellation of the CLoD series, things were looking dire for flight sims, but now we have 2 major releases on the horizon - BoS and DCS WW2. Fantastic stuff.

[major_setback]

Love RoF and very apprehensive about this.


Just to make things clear: RoF are not involved in this Ilya/Oleg/DCS project.

(RoF are involved with the Battle of Stalingrad project, which is completely different).



.

[lensman1945]

Love RoF and very apprehensive about this.

there's nothing to lose..

go for it!:grin:

[bongodriver]

Love RoF and very apprehensive about this.

I think this statement sums up the problem with the flight siming community perfectly.

[Bearcat]

Luthier posted at kickstarter.ALL planes at DCS quality, and I would LOVE a flyable B17:

Also, a little clarification since a lot of people seem to be writing about this.
Here's what happens if we hit our base goal, but no stretch goals.
The final product that is released will have the following content:
FREE Flyable P-47
FREE Flyable Spitfire
FREE Flyable Bf.109
FREE Non-Flyable P-51 (can be made flyable for an additional fee)
FREE Non-Flyable FW.190D (can be made flyable for an additional fee)
FREE Non-Flyable B-17 (cannot be made flyable)
FREE Non-Flyable Me.262 (cannot be made flyable)
If you back the project at a $20 level, you will receive either the FW.190D or the P-51 as a flyable.
If you back the project at a $40 level, you will receive BOTH the FW.190D and the P-51 as flyables.
Now, if we hit stretch goals, then all additional aircraft will be seen by everyone as non-flyables, but will be available as a flyable for a fee. If you back at a $20 level, you will choose any ONE of the paid flyables. If you back at a $40 level, you will still receive ALL the paid flyables on release.
If we end up meeting our ultimate $1million stretch goal, that means you will receive 13 aircraft for backing at a $40 level or above.
And yes, all aircraft will be made to the same level of quality and high standards as the DCS P-51.

So what happens if you already own the DCS P-51 in DCS world? Does that mena you would have to buy it again for the WWII world? I am asking a hypothetical question I realize no one here may have the answer yet.. I will ask the same quation over there..

[JG52Uther]

The question has already been asked, and AFAIK they are trying to sort something out.No idea how they will approach this though. I bought the P51 in the steam sale, and so far all I've done is sit in the cockpit and wondered how young kids coped with all that complexity and managed to fight in the thing!
I thought CoD was realistic, but DCS is a whole new level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b4dPxjxwbEk

[SlipBall]

Luthier lowered the stretch goal for the flyable B-17!!!...include's Southern England!..:cool:

[major_setback]

Luthier lowered the stretch goal for the flyable B-17!!!...include's Southern England!..:cool:

Where did you read this please?

[SlipBall]

Where did you read this please?

At kickstarter

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/new12_zps923fe305.jpg

[major_setback]

At kickstarter

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/new12_zps923fe305.jpg

OK, thanks. I'd seen that. I misunderstood what you wrote, and thought you meant that they would be included if the first goal was reached. I'm still not really sure what they mean by 'stretch goals', but I presume that these will be included if 375, 000 dolars is raised..which seems uncertain.

[Chivas]

OK, thanks. I'd seen that. I misunderstood what you wrote, and thought you meant that they would be included if the first goal was reached. I'm still not really sure what they mean by 'stretch goals', but I presume that these will be included if 375, 000 dolars is raised..which seems uncertain.

Each "stretch goal" requires higher total pledge amounts and includes more and more aircraft/features. More money/pledges allows them to hire more people to create these items for the release next year. Of course there are "always" delays in this type of work.

[major_setback]

New video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEv32IeTlaE&feature=youtu.be

[major_setback]

So what happens if you already own the DCS P-51 in DCS world? Does that mena you would have to buy it again for the WWII world? I am asking a hypothetical question I realize no one here may have the answer yet.. I will ask the same quation over there..



Luthier:

I would guess that a lot of people who backed the project already own the P-51.

I also don't own either the P-51 or the Dora. If we were to include them in kickstarter rewards today, the people who do own the planes wouldn't just do it for free. I'd need to buy licenses from them; in essence you'd still just be buying the planes and your payment would be split between DCS WWII budget and paying for the licenses.

In other words, this would probably add some money to the project, but a large chunk of backer money for this particular reward would not be going to the project.

From the forum here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=109847&page=116


.

[major_setback]

DCS WWII Forum

http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=294

Main thread with posts by Luthier

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=109847


.

[major_setback]

The Edge terrain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tylMZPZeozQ

[Art-J]

First hand knowledge?
Or second hand guessing/repeating?

Second option indeed (I should make myself more clear). My subjective opinion, however, is based on personal experience. Just like most of You guys, I'm with Il-2 universum since its beginnings, and judging from two major projects started or finished under Ilya's supervision (PF and CoD) I perceive the man as a skilled seller, very good at promising bells&whistles, not quite as good project manager though, as far as delivering these is concerned.

I don't have to be a programmer to note that when a game offers eyecandy details (eg. licence plates on tanks) but at the same time has problems with modern hardware support (eg. antialiasing, although I wouldn't call it a "modern hardware" feature), there were some issues with management and prioritizing during development process. Uh... don't want to beat a dead horse again.

All and all, I remain a bit sceptical when I see him taking controls of another ambitious project, especially in cooperation with ED company, also known as "Neverending Beta Releases Co." or "Neverending New GFX Engine Development Ltd".

If, together, they manage to make this new sim happen, fine, I'll most probably buy it on release day. I just don't feel like putting rose-tinted glasses on my nose again, let alone throwing money at the monitor today. Actions count, not words. This is how it used to be in gaming business years ago and I'm not sure about annoying opposite trend visible more and more nowadays (give us the money now and maybe we'll give you a beta-version of some hyped and promised game, which might turn into finished product someday). That, however, is a subject for a different discussion!

[Chivas]

Easy to speculate, but probably along way from the truth.

[major_setback]

How does Kickstarter work? Does the Kickstarter account stay open so that pledges can continue to be made even after 5th OCtober, or will it close?
It would be good if it remained open.

On the Kickstarter page it states:
'This project will only be funded if at least $100,000 is pledged by Saturday Oct 5, 1:20pm EDT.'

... but it doesn't say if there is a possiblity of continued support.

Does anyone know?




.

[Chivas]

The DCS Kickstarter only runs for a month. You can increase your pledge anytime during that month, but your account won't be charged until the end of the month, "IF" the pledges reach the goal of one hundred thousand dollars. I suppose they could start another kickstarter at some point in the future, but I think their future will depend on the quality of the demo.

BOS and DCS WW2 are currently generating funds from the relatively small online combat flight sim community. If their demos are successful, then the buzz will reach the larger less dedicated markets. Our community can't sustain these developments, but can create the buzz needed to reach larger markets.

[major_setback]

New screenshots posted this hour:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts/605176?ref=email&show_token=b8371806836be596







.

[major_setback]

The 100,000 dollars first goal has been reached!!

[major_setback]

Update today:


QUOTE by Luthier/Ilya:

'Good evening gentlemen!

We're down to the wire! Just a few days left before this kickstarter ends.

I really hope we can energize the community enough not to just hit the 150K Me.262 stretch goal, but to get as close as we can to the 275K Southern England stretch goal!

We can do this in one of several ways.

We can find a large new community that has never heard of this project and get them excited. That's certainly very possible. We're getting virtually no exposure outside flight sim forums. If you know of a gaming resource that could be interested in our project, please help us out!

Secondly, we can get some extra help from existing backers. If you've backed at a $40 level, it may seem like you're already getting everything you want. If enough others come in and pledge, you'll get the Me.262 at no extra cost. However what if they don't? No one gets anything. We're getting into a very interesting field of psychology here, but basically we're in a situation where inaction gets everybody nothing, while a seemingly altruistic action benefits everyone, including the actor. In other words, if you can, please bump up your $40 pledge. If enough people do that, all $40 backers get the Me.262. In yet other other words, while on paper the price of the game with the included Me.262 is $40, in reality it is probably a bit more. The way things stand today, a $40 pledge may not actually buy the 262.

Lastly, we hope that some people who were on the fence about the project will be finally converted by today's video. If you have not yet backed the project but were watching it, please get involved! Even a $1 pledge is absolutely great. It still gets us a bit closer to our stretch goal, and, even more importantly, it increases our total number of backers. That, at this point in time, is at least as important a number as the dollar amount below it.

So, without further ado, here's a long extended conversation with Dmitry "Yo-Yo" Moskalenko, the lead aircraft programmer in DCS. He'll talk about the long evolution of the Eagle Dynamics flight model, and puts forward a great case for it being the best flight model on the market today. Yo-Yo created the P-51, our flagship prop-driven fighter simulation, and we're very fortunate to announce that not only will Dmitry be involved with and supervise and quality control all aircraft built by RRG, he will also personally work on our Spitfire Mk.IX, a project of a great personal interest to him.'

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o6zOuvhY-k&feature=youtu.be






.

[major_setback]

Another video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYy5MgFd7ME

[major_setback]

Pay Pal payment option has been added to the payment options.

48 hours to go, and 134,307 dollard pledged.

Will they make it to the 150,000 dollar 'stretch-goal' giving a flyable Me 262 (new stretch goals have been added since the start of this Kickstarter project)?

Link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts



.

[major_setback]

The Kickstarter deadline has been passed.

The 150,000 dollar stretch-goal has been reached!

[Triad773]

Hmm . . . well I wish them well. Have to say I've been so spoilt by the number of flyables in IL-2 modded, or even the original IL-2 stock. Disappointed to not see any Hurricane or P-40 flyable listed. Well, maybe in time.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Have to say I've been so spoilt by the number of flyables in IL-2 modded.

And thus will Second World War Combat Flight Sims remain stuck in the past and therefore remain a dying genre.

Whilst the so called 'fans' of the genre remain obsessed with choosing which of 350 flyable aircraft to fly, with the most simplistic of control systems, how do we convince those same people that specialising in one aircraft can be just as satisfying?

Ilya needs your support, unless you want to be flying those ancient IL2 cockpits for the next ten years.

And thank you Major Setback, for conducting a one-man vigil on this forum. Good job mate, thanks.

[SlipBall]

It's basically a bunch of people who enjoy WW2 combat flight, but have no desire to spend any of their own money.

[robtek]

It's basically a bunch of people who enjoy WW2 combat flight, but have no desire to spend any of their own money.

Do you know for shure that no own money is involved, including missing paychecks, etc..?
Or are you trying to slight them?

[MD_Titus]

It's basically a bunch of people who enjoy WW2 combat flight, but have no desire to spend any of their own money.

that seems a pointlessly negative post.

there's a bunch of software devs who want to make a new game. new games require money to make, and they've asked for and received said money.

so it's basically fans funding a game they want to be made.

[major_setback]

It's basically a bunch of people who enjoy WW2 combat flight, but have no desire to spend any of their own money.

that seems a pointlessly negative post.

there's a bunch of software devs who want to make a new game. new games require money to make, and they've asked for and received said money.

so it's basically fans funding a game they want to be made.


I think you might have misinterpreted this poster. I think he is talking about the complainers, not Ilya/Luthier and Co.




.

[MD_Titus]

er... damn. thanks for clarifying major. my apologies slipball, and you're right.

[robtek]

apologies if i misunderstood!!

[Les]

Not sure exactly what Slipball meant, I thought he was referring to the lack of backers and/or the amount pledged.

Was looking at the numbers -

$158897 Kickstarter total, divided by total amount of backers (2553) = $62.23 on average.

Number of (above the average) backers pledging $65 or more - 628. Averaging $135 per backer.

Number of (below the average) backers pledging $60 or less - 1858. Averaging $36 per backer.

So, theoretically -

If all 2553 backers had pledged the higher $135 average it would have raised about $344655.

And if all 2553 backers had pledged the lower $36 average the Kickstarter would have raised about $91908.

I guess that's just the way it is. A smaller amount of people give more, while a larger amount of people give less. And combined, they get over the line.

I think there could be a case for saying, once it's all added up, people at a certain lower pledge level shouldn't get the rewards that their total amount of pledges didn't actually reach. But it's not something I really care about personally. The low-ballers might be getting a better bargain than others, but the whole thing still would have failed without them, so...whatever.

Imo anyone who pledged less than a couple of hundred dollars is still getting a good deal. That's less than $40 per plane for five DCS:WWII planes (not including the free to play one), at least one new EDGE map to fly in, hard-copy manuals, or DCS:World planes, or other extra's. Even the higher pledge levels are still good value if you want their associated rewards.

Will be interesting to see how future fund-raising efforts go after the experience gained from this one.

Edit - Added this up from the numbers given in the individual Kickstarter rewards, but the total amount raised and total amount of backers doesn't tally with the numbers given there. Still, the same conclusions can be drawn.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Not sure exactly what Slipball meant, I thought he was referring to the lack of backers and/or the amount pledged.

Slipball was commenting on my post regarding someone being 'spoilt' with the number of flyables in 'IL2 modded'.

And he's right. The people who won't invest in new projects because they're 'spoilt by the number of flyables in modded IL2' are killing the genre.

[major_setback]

....And thank you Major Setback, for conducting a one-man vigil on this forum. Good job mate, thanks.



Thanks!
I'm happy to help them out in any way. I feel immensely indebted to Oleg and Ilya and team for all the hard work they put into the IL2 series, not to mention the free content and free updates that they generously dealt out. How many planes did we end up with in the 1946 series? Lots anyway (plus new clouds, ground-effect, cockpits, increased view distance, new 'SoW' FMs loaned from the then upcoming CoD project, water=3, etc.).

[Art-J]

There's also a third group of people. The ones who:
a) enjoy WWII combat flight sim;
b) have desire to spend their own money on it;
c) are (un)fortunately familiar with history, development pace of ED universe products and the way ED communicates with its customers, thus, are also a bit reluctant to carelessly falling for another mumbo-jumbo of poorly backed promises (some similarities to CloD development are also visible).

My advice to this new project management: set realistic initial goals, realistic initial development timetable, post regular, honest updates and the money WILL come. This is how every competitive business usually works. The sooner Russian game devs accept this, the better for all of us - devs and customers.

And maybe they do seem to be getting there indeed, judging from recent posts on ED forums.

[SlipBall]

Slipball was commenting on my post regarding someone being 'spoilt' with the number of flyables in 'IL2 modded'.

And he's right. The people who won't invest in new projects because they're 'spoilt by the number of flyables in modded IL2' are killing the genre.


That's right Dutch, I was making a comment on your post.

[Redroach]

anyone knows what has become of this?

[Continu0]

all updates, probably only visible if you are a backer...: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts

[Redroach]

Wow. At least the newest post sounds suspiciously like CoD 2 years ago :rolleyes:

[CWMV]

Wow. At least the newest post sounds suspiciously like CoD 2 years ago :rolleyes:

Exactly. Honestly ilyas involvement in this is why I didn't buy into it.

[Continu0]

Exactly. Honestly ilyas involvement in this is why I didn't buy into it.

atm. I am dissapointed too. But as he already has my money, it doesn´t matter anymore...

[Feathered_IV]

Exactly. Honestly ilyas involvement in this is why I didn't buy into it.

Me too. I'll happily pay full price and beyond later if he can deliver a solid product, however I don't want to be too invested in the project, either emotionally or financially before then. Life is too short and I really don't need the aggravation.

[RedToo]

Me too. I'll happily pay full price and beyond later if he can deliver a solid product, however I don't want to be too invested in the project, either emotionally or financially before then. Life is too short and I really don't need the aggravation.

+1 Although I have invested a little I'm steering clear of the product until it's released and playable. :)

RedToo.

[Halfen]

To speed things up , the ground effects and details like houses and trees can come later, like in some kind of free download.
Just concentrate on maps and flyable modules.

EDIT: Maybe an extreme/super ground effects package could be sold at a later date. In my limited experience , cpu's, v-cards, drives and memory can slow a system down if it is over taxed. Thus those without the latest hardware could still play it.

[SlipBall]

since I already owned the P-51 and had zero interest in jets, I only supported the project at the 20.00 level 8)...the low amount because of the communication deficit that I was used to

[Feathered_IV]

I recall that the plan was for the payable alpha to be released last month along with the hard copy of the Dora manual. Are the early birds able to say if they are flying it yet or are they under an NDA?

[Igo kyu]

or are they under an NDA?
Perhaps the NDA says they can't say whether they are under an NDA?

[Continu0]

I recall that the plan was for the payable alpha to be released last month along with the hard copy of the Dora manual. Are the early birds able to say if they are flying it yet or are they under an NDA?

no one is flying to my knowledge... but you know about plans... even 777 and BOS can`t hold their promises... so why should Luthier be capable...?

[mcFly]

Deja vu?

[bongodriver]

Deja vu?........why?

Has Luthier attempted to make a 3rd party product before?

the only real Deja vu is all the snide whimpering that he seems to attract.

[CWMV]

Deja vu?........why?

Has Luthier attempted to make a 3rd party product before?

the only real Deja vu is all the snide whimpering that he seems to attract.

Not without reason.

[bongodriver]

Not without reason.

Maybe so, but the constant whimpering is misdirected, it is clear Luthier is not seeing any of it, it's only the rest of us that get to see it over and over again, utterly pointless.
we all want the product we are paying for, but it seems to me the main goal of the dissatisfied voices is to ruin Luthier and prevent him from ever making the products ever again.

[SlipBall]

For me bongo, it is very disappointing that most of his promises once made, are totally ignored by him. I love llya but he seems to have a flaw in that area, crap happens and so you then let the people know the why

[bongodriver]

But he doesn't really make promises, he simply lays out an intended timeline and everyone else turns it into a promise, it's like this weird pre-programmed attitude people have to him, it's not even Luthier that screwed us all over regarding Clod, 1C are to blame for that one, Luthier was simply the lead developer taking his orders from the money men, Team Fusion are proving just how wrong everyone was about Clod, all it needed was time, but time is money and 1C want to make buckets of it for very little investment, now they just slap the il2 label on someone elses recycled products and get them made quick.

[Feathered_IV]

That's a shame. I guess few would be too surprised though, but it do feel sorry for the big supporters as it would have been really exciting for them.

[bongodriver]

I should have been more specific, the promises of the KS campaign were not even kept. For an example and there are more of them, the heavy donor's were promised weekly Skype conversation. One fellow who gave $1000.00 has not even ever heard a word from llya concerning Skype, and also his MIA P-51 key's still waiting for that, he the donor was going to gift the key away for a last Christmas present. :rolleyes:

On the last dev update it shows evidence that the pledge rewards are being integrated into a database of backers to be merged with profiles at ED's shop site, not quite a failure to keep promises but in true Luthier fashion a change of expected direction with a long silent delay, to make Christmas presents on the back of a Kickstarter project is really not the brightest idea I've heard.
seems to me that the backer rewards will turn up eventually and so will the final product, all we have to be is patient.

[bongodriver]

your reassurance's does not address the Skype issue

it doesn't you are correct, if the Skype issue is causing heartache and deep emotional stress then all I can offer is my deepest sympathy, I am eligible for the Skype time too but can only imagine what it must be like for those of us who need this desperately, ultimately for me the end product is all I am waiting for, a bit of alpha access is a bonus when it comes.

[SlipBall]

it doesn't you are correct, if the Skype issue is causing heartache and deep emotional stress then all I can offer is my deepest sympathy, I am eligible for the Skype time too but can only imagine what it must be like for those of us who need this desperately, ultimately for me the end product is all I am waiting for, a bit of alpha access is a bonus when it comes.


I went to KS for a look see and happily I need to back track on the Skype issue. According to the due date for that particular part of the reward, it seems to be Sept. 2014...so never mind and my apologies :oops:

[SlipBall]

Hold it not so fast:)...my logic is flawed, Skype was promised(donor just pointed this out to me) for the development stage, Sept. 2014 is the hoped for release date of the game. So the Skype guys should be upset right now!

[bongodriver]

Hold it not so fast:)...my logic is flawed, Skype was promised(donor just pointed this out to me) for the development stage, Sept. 2014 is the hoped for release date of the game. So the Skype guys should be upset right now!

So Skype could still happen anytime up to September 2014, but yeah I forgot how integral and essential those Skype sessions are to flight sim development, I simply cannot see how this project can succeed now without some chats on Skype, we thought the randomness of the Friday updates was bad......that pales into insignificance compared to the lack of Skype chats, it really leaves a bitter taste in the mouth now, all those screen shots of the development so far were achieved without a single Skype chat involved, can you believe it, the 21st century and no Skype chats, what is worse is that we can't use the Skype chats as another medium for airing our dissatisfaction about the lack of Skype chats.

[SlipBall]

So Skype could still happen anytime up to September 2014, but yeah I forgot how integral and essential those Skype sessions are to flight sim development, I simply cannot see how this project can succeed now without some chats on Skype, we thought the randomness of the Friday updates was bad......that pales into insignificance compared to the lack of Skype chats, it really leaves a bitter taste in the mouth now, all those screen shots of the development so far were achieved without a single Skype chat involved, can you believe it, the 21st century and no Skype chats, what is worse is that we can't use the Skype chats as another medium for airing our dissatisfaction about the lack of Skype chats.


Certainly good points that you make, but for these people it was important to them at the time of the pledge. Would they have pledged the 1000.00 without the Skype feature being promised?...I don't know, but I can understand their disappointment that there has been no contact

[bongodriver]

I struggle to feel sorry for anybody who backs a kickstarter for a game simply because they wanted a Skype chat............I believe there are premium rate phone services that offer something similar.

[arthursmedley]

I am eligible for the Skype time



bongo, you stumped up a thousand big ones for this?:o

[bongodriver]

bongo, you stumped up a thousand big ones for this?:o

Good spot Arthur, nope that's just terrible grammar and articulation, I meant to say I'm NOT eligible too (why did I put too?) but can only......yadayada!

a grand......I love flight sims.....but not that much.

[TexasJG]

Slipball was commenting on my post regarding someone being 'spoilt' with the number of flyables in 'IL2 modded'.

And he's right. The people who won't invest in new projects because they're 'spoilt by the number of flyables in modded IL2' are killing the genre.

Actually I have to respectfully disagree somewhat, I'm a premium founder of the new (or in development) IL-2 BOS only because of the continuing work of the Daidalos Team with IL-2 1946. Had not DT continued on with the work, proving what can be done in the title and the genre, I would not have been interested in purchasing the BOS title in a pre-release state.

So in actuality DT's work is a very good sells promotion for IL-2 BOS.

[Feathered_IV]

Breaking news suggests that luthier and RRG have left DCS WW2 development and ED are taking over from here on.

[jamesdietz]

Any "NEW" news?

[Continu0]

Bf 109K is going beta tomorrow...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3OoHtf05II

[Les]

Pardon my ignorance, but is that a simplified start up and take-off procedure? It doesn't look as complicated or difficult as I was expecting.

[Continu0]

Pardon my ignorance, but is that a simplified start up and take-off procedure? It doesn't look as complicated or difficult as I was expecting.

Hm, I don`t think so... but what did you expect? There are no computers to start up, etc... basically there is not that much more to start than in a car, so why should it be that complicated? Just because the p-51 is more complicated?;)

[Les]

Could just be that I was expecting to watch a full check-list run-through type of thing, whereas this video was more about just getting the thing going. No big deal.

[Continu0]

Hm, I think a detailed manual like the one of the 190 should follow... You have plenty of things to run trough there, I suspect... :)

[ATAG_Dutch]

So how is it all coming along guys?

After all of the argumentation, the taking of sides, the loyalty to one developer versus another, the fights, the arguments, the demands for accuracy?

Who wins out?

Is it DCS, with their fantastic in-cockpit re-creations which fly over a boring and limited modern landscape?

Is it 1C Game Studios, who made us fly over an equally boring landscape of snow for such a long time, with ridiculous flight models which defy the laws of physics and kill a bomber with one burst of machine gun fire?

Is it Cliffs of Dover, which the amateurs have now changed visually beyond recognition from the original release, only to render a fully loaded Heinkel 111 faster than a 100 octane Hurricane?

Maybe one day we enthusiasts will experience a fully realistic representation of combat during the second world war.

But maybe we won't. Because realism does not sell product. Fantasy sells product. The unfortunate people who have to design, develop and sell a product have to gauge what the current customer base wants, based on their respective fantasies in any given market.

The past 15 years have only demonstrated that the customer base itself doesn't know what it wants.

Apart from conclusive evidence of Nazi supremacy, of course.

[Continu0]

Welcome back, ATAG_Dutch!

[ATAG_Dutch]

Welcome back, ATAG_Dutch!

Thanks mate. But it's just plain 'Dutch' these days. I did ask Uther to remove the prefix, but I guess he's too busy.

I wouldn't want to besmirch the reputation of such a superb organisation with my disjointed ramblings......

;)

[SlipBall]

I'm also glad that you are still around Dutch...the great dream & vision lives on in some of us...:-P


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/shot_20121011_054644_zpsqeq7zlac.png

[ATAG_Dutch]

I'm also glad that you are still around Dutch...the great dream & vision lives on in some of us...:-P


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/shot_20121011_054644_zpsqeq7zlac.png

That is a beautiful screenshot. Thanks Slipball.

Last night, I flew my first flight on the Autumnal map in Stalingrad.

I was gobsmacked by the sunbeams shining through the clouds and illuminating the landscape.

As against that, the bottom of the cloud layer was far too flat. Geometrically flat, but we have to make allowances I suppose. The trees looked artificially planted in straight lines too. But boy, it felt like the old days.

But I guess that they're all just computer games. Warts and all.

[Osprey]

Some of us are still trying to do it right!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhe-G4rDLFE

[JG52Uther]

Thanks mate. But it's just plain 'Dutch' these days. I did ask Uther to remove the prefix, but I guess he's too busy.

I wouldn't want to besmirch the reputation of such a superb organisation with my disjointed ramblings......

;)

Sorry Dutch, above my (no pay) grade! I think you have to ask one of the forum admins to change it. I have asked.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Sorry Dutch, above my (no pay) grade! I think you have to ask one of the forum admins to change it. I have asked.

Ok, thanks.