Any Certified Flight Instructors here??

[Oldschool61]

Ive been thinking recently about taking flight lessons to obtain a PPL. Cost for lessons is the main reason I havent done it yet. Any way the "FAA" minimums are 20 hours with instructor and 20 solo plus like 20 classroom which brings cost to 7K-9K. Ive done alot of cross country flight over the years in MSFS using VOR's and such. Plus hours and hours of IL2 flying. Do anyone think this would help reduce the hours needed to get a PPL down from the national average of 60 -70 hours till completed???

[nearmiss]

If you decide to do it I suggest you not mention you simulator experience. The IFR will be alot easier for you. Instructors don't have alot of respect for computer simulator flying jocks.

You seat of the pants experience will be most of instructors concerns. The instructor has to get you familiar with Aircraft real world flying.

[Oldschool61]

If you decide to do it I suggest you not mention you simulator experience. The IFR will be alot easier for you. Instructors don't have alot of respect for computer simulator flying jocks.

You seat of the pants experience will be most of instructors concerns. The instructor has to get you familiar with Aircraft real world flying.

What about the instructors who fly simulators like FS and IL2??

[bongodriver]

Hi Oldschool61, I am a flight instructor but not FAA, based in the UK, I'm fairly confident that the FAA won't give any dispensation on the minimum hours on the basis of MSFS experience, the factors being that MSFS is not an approved FNPT system (flight navigation procedure trainer) and self teaching can not be accepted, you have to admit self teaching makes somewhat a mockery of the many hours of training and regulation that professional instructors have to go through in order to teach to the strict syllabus laid out by national authorities, as Nearmiss says, if you stroll into the flight school asking for dispensation because you play computer games you will instantly lose respect.

I will however say that your time spent on MSFS will almost certainly make the instrument flying side of the syllabus much easier, remember that the hours required in the syllabus are absolute 'minimum' and there is always a chance that if a student struggles along the way then the hours may overrun.

[SlipBall]

Oldschool have you considered going for a sport pilot certificate, hell of a lot cheaper

http://www.zenithair.com/news/sport-pilot.html

[flyingblind]

I doubt I could ever afford the cost of getting a PPL but I finally got to cash in my Christmas present from my youngest daughter a few days ago which was a voucher for an hour long flying lesson, bless her little socks. For an extra £16 I was able to upgrade to a slightly bigger plane so she and the missus could come along for the ride. When I say slightly bigger I mean slightly as we got a Cessna 172 which reminded me of getting into an elderly fiat 500 from the 50's, only more cramped.

The weather was perfect with light wind, brilliant sunshine and a smattering of Cumulus clouds.The flying school was based at Exeter Airport and after a quick briefing the instructor took us off and got up to a few thousand feet before letting me take the controls. After countless hours on IL2 I found no problem taking the controls of a real aircraft albeit a pretty basic one and after doing a few manouvers the instructor was happy to sit back and let me get on with it. I followed the A38 South round the Southern edge of Dartmoor towards Plymouth passing over our house on the way. Just before Plymouth I turned round and headed back along the coast flying over Burgh Island, Salcombe, Dartmouth and Torbay. The sea was the sort of colour you would expect in the Caribean. At the Exe estuary we turned in towards the airport begining the descent. As the runway came into sight the instrutor took the controls back and brought us down. I had an ear to ear grin from start to finish.

Apart from the views and the sheer fun of it the best thing I got out of it was comparing a real flight with flying on a computer. The biggest difference I found was the planes movement which took me by surprise. Despite being a calm day there was a lot of bumping and swaying at low altitude in such a small plane that had my stomach struggling a bit to keep up. The girls in the back looked wide eyed and as green as grass and ready to grab the sick bags. This got better once over 3000 ft but even the gentle manouvers I was making with the controls had a similar unsettling effect until we got used to it. It would take many hours of flying before I would be comfortable even thinking about the sort of manouvers in a dog fight! LOL.

[SlipBall]

I doubt I could ever afford the cost of getting a PPL but I finally got to cash in my Christmas present from my youngest daughter a few days ago which was a voucher for an hour long flying lesson, bless her little socks. For an extra £16 I was able to upgrade to a slightly bigger plane so she and the missus could come along for the ride. When I say slightly bigger I mean slightly as we got a Cessna 172 which reminded me of getting into an elderly fiat 500 from the 50's, only more cramped.

The weather was perfect with light wind, brilliant sunshine and a smattering of Cumulus clouds.The flying school was based at Exeter Airport and after a quick briefing the instructor took us off and got up to a few thousand feet before letting me take the controls. After countless hours on IL2 I found no problem taking the controls of a real aircraft albeit a pretty basic one and after doing a few manouvers the instructor was happy to sit back and let me get on with it. I followed the A38 South round the Southern edge of Dartmoor towards Plymouth passing over our house on the way. Just before Plymouth I turned round and headed back along the coast flying over Burgh Island, Salcombe, Dartmouth and Torbay. The sea was the sort of colour you would expect in the Caribean. At the Exe estuary we turned in towards the airport begining the descent. As the runway came into sight the instrutor took the controls back and brought us down. I had an ear to ear grin from start to finish.

Apart from the views and the sheer fun of it the best thing I got out of it was comparing a real flight with flying on a computer. The biggest difference I found was the planes movement which took me by surprise. Despite being a calm day there was a lot of bumping and swaying at low altitude in such a small plane that had my stomach struggling a bit to keep up. The girls in the back looked wide eyed and as green as grass and ready to grab the sick bags. This got better once over 3000 ft but even the gentle manouvers I was making with the controls had a similar unsettling effect until we got used to it. It would take many hours of flying before I would be comfortable even thinking about the sort of manouvers in a dog fight! LOL.

Sounds like you and the family had a great time :grin:...the plane's movement was one of the best things in the game release. It is the main reason that I still fly the original CLod. When I first went for my PPL I was very concerned with all the violent movement for sure.

[redxfred]

I instructed in USAF and in civilian scenarios and personally have great respect for the training derived from FSX. If nothing else, it can eliminate those prospective pilots who have neither the discipline or "Air sense" to get through an FAA certified program. That's good, because not everyone can be a pilot (Or a Doctor, or a singer or a good sheet rock hanger...). It is a blessing to find out you really don't want to put up with flight school before you lay out gobs of dough.

FAA never accepted training from other than a certificated Instructor when I was doing it, but a call to any flight school listed in the yellow pages can confirm whether or not that policy has changed. Just ask to speak informally to an instructor. I'm sure they will be glad to answer your questions.

FSX is a good procedures trainer but can never replace the "seat of the pants" experience of the real thing. Practicing radio procedures as well as course intercepts and holding pattern type instruments is a great way to apply all the little instructions found in the Airman information Manual so that you will instinctively know which way to turn, when to start the clock and all that other stuff when you start paying big bucks to the flight school. Simply put, learn what to do in FSX so that you can quickly learn HOW to do it in the rental plane.

Learning to fly is only part of the challenge. After you are given the FAA blessing, you still must be committed and be able to afford to fly occasionally in order to remain legally and skillfully current. If you can't afford to practice after you're licensed, you've just wasted the money on a pilots certificate. Be committed to safe flying before you start spending on what can be a very expensive hobby, or else please don't fly over western Virginia, where I live.

[flyingblind]

A great time for sure. We are still buzzing about it. Anyone with a licence and gets to fly for real are lucky, lucky buggers.

I mentioned my enthusiasm for flight sims during the briefing and have to say the instructor seemed less then impressed although during the flight he did say I was doing exceptionally well which was quite gratifying.

I do think playing IL2 gave me more confidence taking the controls but pootling about on a jolly is without doubt completely different to getting a PPL. I would absolutly recommend any one to have a quick flight like I did whether or not they intend to take it further as it is such an amazing experience and does count towards your flying time if going for a licence. It also helps if you have a daughter who will treat you.

Just to bore you all further here are a few snaps taken on the wifes mobile phone.



http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/541/30042013210.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/30042013210.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/841/30042013226.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/30042013226.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/194/p3310050.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/p3310050.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/809/30042013245.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/30042013245.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/855/30042013230.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/30042013230.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/822/30042013234.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/30042013234.jpg/)

[namroob]

I agree with the comments above - PC flight sim experience probably doesn't give you much of a head start in stick and rudder flying when you start PPL training.

However, I'm sure that MS FSX or X-Plane would be hugely helpful in practicing instrument flying and using radio navaids etc. I wish I'd had access to a PC with FSX on it when I was doing my Instrument Rating training in the mid-90's! I well remember making cardboard ADF and DI displays so I could practice the mental calculations for NDB approaches. I think a PC sim would have great potential for improving your instrument scan, multi-tasking, division of attention under pressure etc. Save a fortune too - the only way to practice in my day was spending vast sums to do it in the air!

[Oldschool61]

Hi Oldschool61, I am a flight instructor but not FAA, based in the UK, I'm fairly confident that the FAA won't give any dispensation on the minimum hours on the basis of MSFS experience, the factors being that MSFS is not an approved FNPT system (flight navigation procedure trainer) and self teaching can not be accepted, you have to admit self teaching makes somewhat a mockery of the many hours of training and regulation that professional instructors have to go through in order to teach to the strict syllabus laid out by national authorities, as Nearmiss says, if you stroll into the flight school asking for dispensation because you play computer games you will instantly lose respect.

I will however say that your time spent on MSFS will almost certainly make the instrument flying side of the syllabus much easier, remember that the hours required in the syllabus are absolute 'minimum' and there is always a chance that if a student struggles along the way then the hours may overrun.

I wasnt expecting a break I was wondering if any pilots thought having alot of sim experiance (VOR/instrument flying) would make achieving the required level of competance easier.

[bongodriver]

OK Oldschool, fair enough, sorry I misunderstood your question.....like most other respondents here did it seems.

the simple answer in that case is 'who knows?', I've had students who flew flight sims who never gained any real advantage, and some students with absolutely no idea about anything who picked it up pretty quickly......it's all down to you.

[Oldschool61]

I instructed in USAF and in civilian scenarios and personally have great respect for the training derived from FSX. If nothing else, it can eliminate those prospective pilots who have neither the discipline or "Air sense" to get through an FAA certified program. That's good, because not everyone can be a pilot (Or a Doctor, or a singer or a good sheet rock hanger...). It is a blessing to find out you really don't want to put up with flight school before you lay out gobs of dough.

FAA never accepted training from other than a certificated Instructor when I was doing it, but a call to any flight school listed in the yellow pages can confirm whether or not that policy has changed. Just ask to speak informally to an instructor. I'm sure they will be glad to answer your questions.

FSX is a good procedures trainer but can never replace the "seat of the pants" experience of the real thing. Practicing radio procedures as well as course intercepts and holding pattern type instruments is a great way to apply all the little instructions found in the Airman information Manual so that you will instinctively know which way to turn, when to start the clock and all that other stuff when you start paying big bucks to the flight school. Simply put, learn what to do in FSX so that you can quickly learn HOW to do it in the rental plane.

Learning to fly is only part of the challenge. After you are given the FAA blessing, you still must be committed and be able to afford to fly occasionally in order to remain legally and skillfully current. If you can't afford to practice after you're licensed, you've just wasted the money on a pilots certificate. Be committed to safe flying before you start spending on what can be a very expensive hobby, or else please don't fly over western Virginia, where I live.

Guy at work here just got his PPL a few monthes back. He borrows a guys Grumman Tiger at his local airport (40/hr plus fuel). He mentioned you need 3 takoffs and landing every 90 days to stay current. What happens if you miss the 3 takeoffs and landing in the 90 days?? Do you need to get a check ride or just go up solo to make the 3 and 3??

[bongodriver]

No check ride, just 3 and 3 so you can take passengers, you only need a check ride every 2 years.

[Oldschool61]

No check ride, just 3 and 3 so you can take passengers, you only need a check ride every 2 years.

DO touch and goes count as take off and landings or do they have to be full stops??

[bongodriver]

Here in Europe they have to be full stop, I can't say with confidence if the FAA is the same but I imagine it is, a long runway makes this less of a pain.

[Oldschool61]

Here in Europe they have to be full stop, I can't say with confidence if the FAA is the same but I imagine it is, a long runway makes this less of a pain.

Question? In USA you need 20 hours with instructor minimum. Is that whats required to solo or the minimum total to get PPL? Is soloing strictly up to flight instructors opinion or can you solo at any point after a certain amount of time with instructor? I know that when soloing you cant have passenger (before PPL), but what if passenger has a PPL?

[bongodriver]

The minimum hours are for licensing, if during training your progress is really good and you have covered all lessons up to first solo then it is the instructors discretion as to when to send you solo, this can be achieved in as little as 10 hours approx.

[Oldschool61]

The minimum hours are for licensing, if during training your progress is really good and you have covered all lessons up to first solo then it is the instructors discretion as to when to send you solo, this can be achieved in as little as 10 hours approx.

When you are aloud to solo are you only able to take planes from the flight school your using or do you get to use any rental plane from other sources??.

[bongodriver]

You are only allowed to fly an aircraft the instructor has authorised you to because technically you will be flying on the instructors license.

Another point to note is that the first solo sessions will only release you into the circuit for take off and landing practice, you won't be released to do any form of cross country or local area flying until you have done dual sessions dealing with navigation and practice forced landings, some instructors may even like to touch on some basic instrument flying too just to cover all bases, it can be an anxious time for us instructors sending students off solo, so we like to know everything has been covered.

[MB_Avro_UK]

I have a fair mix of experience. And I'm not an instructor.

I'm delighted that you and your family enjoyed your experience.

But being a pilot is not just about flying in clear blue skies in sight of the ground. Yes, that's great fun. But as soon as you move away from this scenario, flying becomes a lot tougher and demanding. A whole lot more.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[Oldschool61]

You are only allowed to fly an aircraft the instructor has authorised you to because technically you will be flying on the instructors license.

Another point to note is that the first solo sessions will only release you into the circuit for take off and landing practice, you won't be released to do any form of cross country or local area flying until you have done dual sessions dealing with navigation and practice forced landings, some instructors may even like to touch on some basic instrument flying too just to cover all bases, it can be an anxious time for us instructors sending students off solo, so we like to know everything has been covered.

I watched several videos on youtube by a guy in the UK who goes by the name neutrinoghost (youtube name) he has some really good cross country videos in HD. Ive watched them a few times and the cross country looks really simple.
Same stuff Ive done for years in FSX. I know the real planes flys different but it looks very simple, check this video out and tell me if hes knows what hes doing..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFwBiTS5cKA

[bongodriver]

The guy said he was on his CPL qualifier, so he is already at an advanced stage of flight training to a higher qualification, I didn't watch the whole video but my impression is he is competent.

[Oldschool61]

The guy said he was on his CPL qualifier, so he is already at an advanced stage of flight training to a higher qualification, I didn't watch the whole video but my impression is he is competent.

What do you see as being hardest for most students which requires them longer than the 40 hours minimum to get PPL?

[bongodriver]

I can't single out an aspect that is universally hard, perhaps landing takes time to master the finesse but it won't necessarily cause an overrun, the average hours to qualify is in the order of 10 extra on top of the minimum (50 for the US, 55 for Europe) only exceptional students are expected to qualify with the minimum hours, overrunning is an inevitability, most flying schools will explain this.

[BigC208]

Biggest one is lack of money. If you cannot afford to fly at least once or twice a week when starting out you will take longer. Second is lack of aptitude. The military weeds out week brothers and sisters. There is no such thing when you go for a ppl. I have soloed 16 year olds within 6 or 7 hours and adults with more than 25 hours that never soloed. Most fulltime students make it within 60 hours. In the usa I would expect to pay around 13k at the moment. Save up, find a cfi that fits your schedule, get your written out of the way and do the flight traning in about 6 weeks, weather permitting. This way everything stays fresh and the chance of losing an intructor is minimal. I had 3 different cfi's before I soloed, no fun when starting out. Enjoy!

[bongodriver]

Yeah I used to be an instructor for the RAF flying scholarships, it was a total joy taking these fresh faced information sponges, they had to do an abridged syllabus of 30 hours and were expected to solo within 15 hours, most of them made it under 10.

It's frustrating to say it being an instructor (luckily it's a moonlighting job for me) but if you think money is going to be an issue then then is not for you, but as someone else mentioned there is always the sport pilot licence route, it's a bit limiting but it gets you into the air.

[pateador]

I did some instructing back in the 90,s I was FAA CFI, CFII an MEI, towards your goal of PPL forget any sim time but, if you look for an Instrument Rating, in those times there were rumors about accepting a few hours of Pc Flying for the total amount of 20 hours of SIM training... As I left the USA in 92 and stop instructing , I'm not sure what was done about that, but from my experience, 1400+ instructing hours, it sure helps a lot to have and understanding of the ADF, VOR and ILS instruments and procedures: I got a belgian student who got his IFR ticket in his vacation: just 14 days!!! had previously prepared ground test and was a fine pilot and had already a very advanced understanding of the IFR flight and instruments behaviour, as I said 20 hours of Sim + plus 20 hours flight lessons and got his ticket at the first try.. WAS I A SO GREAT INSTRUCTOR !LOL!

[redxfred]

While it's fun to hear about how we instructed "back in '88", please remember that the regulations governing flight, at least in the USA, are laws, not techniques! Just as you can get a ticket for going 60 in a 55 MPH zone while driving your car, you can also get a ticket for going over 250 knots below 10,000 feet in your Mustang. That's just an example of the simplest rules/regulations/laws, etc. I'm sure you get what I mean.

The upshot of this is that for those interested in flying in the USA, you can get all this information FREE at http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/faa_regulations/
I recommend you check the link :"Read 14 CFR Part 91" on the right side of that page to see all the current fundamental rules in effect according to the FAA, (Not according this tired old retiree!)
To see more of the "Nuts and Bolts" of flying in the USA, pull up http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/index.htm
for the Aeronautical Information Manual (Used to be called the Airman's Information manual) so everyone still calls it the "AIM". This points out the proper way to get things done while driving your P-51D Mustang in good weather and bad.

We have lots of advice and stories to tell here on the CLoD site, but for the official straight skinny on actual flying, go to the FAA... you helped pay for it! I suspect CLoDders from other nations have similar sites sponsored by your own governments.

[bongodriver]

While I am at a slight loss to understand the hostile tone of the last post it is true that all the guidelines are available on respective national authorities websites, not sure how much more relevant to the discussion flying mustangs over 250kts below FL100 is compared to what has been discussed, I get the impression the OP has a grasp on the regulations already and he was just asking opinions from any resident fuddy-duddy instructors here........I guess it's less fun than trawling through the FAA website though.

[Oldschool61]

While I am at a slight loss to understand the hostile tone of the last post it is true that all the guidelines are available on respective national authorities websites, not sure how much more relevant to the discussion flying mustangs over 250kts below FL100 is compared to what has been discussed, I get the impression the OP has a grasp on the regulations already and he was just asking opinions from any resident fuddy-duddy instructors here........I guess it's less fun than trawling through the FAA website though.

Exactly Bongo. I make enough money for lessons, that technically isnt the problem. The ball and chain is whats holding me up!! She says I dont need to waste money on flying lessons blah blah blah...... I found some flying clubs in chicago (my home base) area that charge 30-40 a month for dues and 82-90/hr wet for 152 or 172. Most clubs have CFI's who charge 35-40 an hour. Just need to get rid of the wife!!!

[redxfred]

Just trying to keep it "light". I didn't mean to offend anyone with my P-51 quip.