so if a bomber takes 2 gunsights at 100m and 1 at 100 m then how many at 150 m?

[raaaid]

so if a bomber takes 2 gunsights at 100m and 1 at 200 m then how many at 150 m?



just imagine you have set convergence at 150 m it would be crucial to know

my asumption:

double distance half amount of gunsights so

distance-gunsights:


25-8
50-4
100-2

150-1.5

200-1
400-0.5
800-0.25

is my reasoning correct because if it is theres a glitch in the matrix i think

compare it with a fighter:

distance-gunsights:

25-4
50-2
100-1
150-not 0.75 closer to 1 than to 0.5
200-0.5
400-0.25
800-0.125

[5./JG27.Farber]

No no no no!

Eye, recticle, object! There are three parts to this. This is why anything that is in the ring is scaled by 10. So a fighter with a 10 metres wingspan that fits once is 100m. Fits twice is 200m. Fits 1 and a half times is 150m. The value of multiplication is always a 100th of its actual size. (for the 109 Revi)

30m bomber fits once he is 300m, fits twice is 600m. Fits 1.5 times is 150m.


Wing span or length multiplied by number of times in the recticle multiplied by 100 = Distance to the target.

[major_setback]

No no no no!

Eye, recticle, object! There are three parts to this. This is why anything that is in the ring is scaled by 10. So a fighter with a 10 metres wingspan that fits once is 100m. Fits twice is 200m. Fits 1 and a half times is 150m. The value of multiplication is always a 100th of its actual size. (for the 109 Revi)

30m bomber fits once he is 300m, fits twice is 600m. Fits 1.5 times is 150m.


Wing span or length multiplied by number of times in the recticle multiplied by 100 = Distance to the target.



I've no idea about the sight, but just looking at your maths, are you sure it isn't 450m?




.

[5./JG27.Farber]

No no no no!

Eye, recticle, object! There are three parts to this. This is why anything that is in the ring is scaled by 10. So a fighter with a 10 metres wingspan that fits once is 100m. Fits twice is 200m. Fits 1 and a half times is 150m. The value of multiplication is always a 100th of its actual size. (for the 109 Revi)

30m bomber fits once he is 300m, fits twice is 600m. Fits 1.5 times is 450m.


Wing span or length multiplied by number of times in the recticle multiplied by 10 = Distance to the target.


Yes you are quite right, I was wrong. Also I noticed its not mulitplied by 100 but 10!


30 times 1 times 10 = 300
30 times 2 times 10 = 600
30 times 1.5 times 10 = 450

From "Schiessfibel" by Adolf Galland:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/revisight_zps9a6e70b2.png

[raaaid]

check your maths sir:

a plane takes two gunsights at 50 m

one gunsight at 100

0.5 gunsights at 200 m

but

at 150 m will take 3 times less than at 50 m an 1.5 times less than at 100

and efectively 2/3 = 1/1.5 = 1.666...

oh dejavu all over

[5./JG27.Farber]

I did, they were corrected.

I cant follow your reasoning after the word "but". Sorry.

[raaaid]

take as basis a fighter at 100 m takes one gunsight

how many does it take at 200 m? 1/2, it will apeear two times samller than at 100 m

so how many at 150 m? 1/1.5=0.666..., it will appear 1.5 times smaller than at 100 m

not .75

now i wonder where did i discuss this before

[5./JG27.Farber]

take as basis a fighter at 100 m takes one gunsight

how many does it take at 200 m? 1/2, it will apeear two times samller than at 100 m

so how many at 150 m? 1/1.5=0.666..., it will appear 1.5 times smaller than at 100 m

not .75

now i wonder where did i discuss this before

1 divided by 1.5 is 0.6667 but this proves nothing...

100 divided by 1 = 100
150 divided by 1.5= 100
200 divided by 2 = 100

This is what I ment what I said its a factor of 100. However this is only for a 10m wing span.


A bomber is 30m's on average.

[zapatista]

Yes you are quite right, I was wrong. Also I noticed its not mulitplied by 100 but 10!


30 times 1 times 10 = 300
30 times 2 times 10 = 600
30 times 1.5 times 10 = 450

From "Schiessfibel" by Adolf Galland:


oki doki, but the real question after that is ............

how can you make sure that the onscreen displayed distant aircraft in your CoD gunsight reticle is 100% displayed correctly in the right size on your pc screen, ie be seen on your monitor in 1:1 correct size comparison as you would see it from that fighter aircraft in real life with the naked eye on the real gunsight reticle ?
note: we are presuming the viewers eyes are at the same distance from their pc screen as they would be in the real cockpit from the real gunsight reticle

:)

hint hint, anybody needs a hint ? :)

[5./JG27.Farber]

note: we are presuming the viewers eyes are at the same distance from their pc screen as they would be in the real cockpit from the real gunsight reticle


Errr do you have some kind of magic 3D monitor? Why would it matter how far away you are from a 2D object (the monitor)?

As for your point - why not spill the beans this is a raaaid thread, might as well add more madness.

[zapatista]

Errr do you have some kind of magic 3D monitor? Why would it matter how far away you are from a 2D object (the monitor)?.

purely to try and compare apples with apples and standardize the observation criteria between our virtual pilot and the pilot in a real cockpit

eg, lets say our pc gamer has his pc and game correctly setup and he is sitting at a normal comfortable viewing distance from his screen: then if our virtual pc pilot right now looks at a 10 cm wide aircraft displayed on his screen (say a 109 at 100 meters), then if you lean closer to the screen (lets say you 1/2 the distance between your eyes and the screen) then to you as the pc gamer the same 109 at 100 meters will be seen as 2x as large (whereas leaning forward in a real cockpit looking at a real distant aircraft it would stay the same size, because leaning 30 cm closer to an object 100 meters away with the naked eye doesnt significantly change its size to your eye)

bit of a clumsy explanation, but it should get the meaning accross (this is presuming our virtual pilot isnt a player using a track-ir with a 6DoF game, but lets not complicate things any further for now)

for the 2e point, as it turns out our average gaming position in front of a pc monitor on a desk in front of you produces a roughly similar distance for your eyes as they would be in a real cockpit from the gunsight (both are at roughly an arms length from the viewer/player, so lets not quibble about minor differences there)

so,..... i repeat my question: :) if in a real ww2 fighter aircraft you would see the 109 at 100 meters in front of you displayed as 10 cm wide on your gunsight reticle (and you can in fact place a ruler on the gunsight to measure it), what do you need to do in CoD to make sure you also see a 109 at 100 meters as a 10 cm wide object onscreen in your virtual gunsight reticle ?

eg, many players here with incorrect system setups might in fact only see a 5 cm wide 109 at 100 meters on their pc screen, making that enemy plane harder to track and spot, and harder to aim at. and yes, both gunsight reticle and distant aircraft would then be 1/2 their normal sizes and in the right proportions, so even the 5 cm 109 at 100 m in that example would still fill the gunsight reticle correctly and by measuring the reticle markings you can interpret the size/distance the aircraft would/should be in real life (because in this example both gunsight and distant aircraft have been equally distorted)

again a bit verbose to explain, but you should get the meaning of what i am trying to convey there

so whats the answer ? any self respecting virtual pilot should know the answer to this one :) (a bit of a jibe in return since you seemed to respond somewhat abrasively to my genuine question) :P

[5./JG27.Farber]

I have TrackIR, when I lean in, I lean in in reality and the game...

[zapatista]

I have TrackIR, when I lean in, I lean in in reality and the game...

and that is the extent of your answer ? even with your trackir, if CoD is not configured correctly on your system then the 109 aircraft you are looking at in our example will still be the wrong size in most CoD player setups

the question still is: how can you make sure that the onscreen displayed distant aircraft in your CoD gunsight reticle is 100% displayed correctly in the right size on your pc screen, ie that this distant 109 at 100 meters from you is indeed displayed as a 10 cm wide object on the screen in front of you, and is 1:1 correct size comparison as you would see it from that fighter aircraft in real life with the naked eye on the real gunsight reticle ?

note: we are presuming the pc viewers eyes are at a relatively normal viewing distance from the pc monitor in front of them, and for the purpose of this example they are at the same distance from their pc screen as they would be in the real cockpit from the real gunsight reticle

anyone ?

farber, why dont you measure it on your monitor. make a quick mission with icons on (so you see the distance tag) and a friendly 109, fly 100 or 200 meters directly behind him at 6 'o'clock and have him in your gunsight reticle (which will confirm his exact distance from you), pause game at right moment, measure 109 wingspan on screen :)

since you havnt produced the answer yet, i suspect you are flying around like oliver in liliput land , and the 109 in front of you is about 30% to small :)

so whats the answer then ? how can you make sure CoD is correctly configured so that distant 109 is the "right size" (same size as it would be seen with the naked eye from a similar viewing position in real life)

[5./JG27.Farber]

and that is the extent of your answer ? even with your trackir, if CoD is not configured correctly on your system then the 109 aircraft you are looking at in our example will still be the wrong size in most CoD player setups

the question still is: how can you make sure that the onscreen displayed distant aircraft in your CoD gunsight reticle is 100% displayed correctly in the right size on your pc screen, ie that this distant 109 at 100 meters from you is indeed displayed as a 10 cm wide object on the screen in front of you, and is 1:1 correct size comparison as you would see it from that fighter aircraft in real life with the naked eye on the real gunsight reticle ?

note: we are presuming the pc viewers eyes are at a relatively normal viewing distance from the pc monitor in front of them, and for the purpose of this example they are at the same distance from their pc screen as they would be in the real cockpit from the real gunsight reticle

anyone ?

farber, why dont you measure it on your monitor. make a quick mission with icons on (so you see the distance tag) and a friendly 109, fly 100 or 200 meters directly behind him at 6 'o'clock and have him in your gunsight reticle (which will confirm his exact distance from you), pause game at right moment, measure 109 wingspan on screen :)

since you havnt produced the answer yet, i suspect you are flying around like oliver in liliput land , and the 109 in front of you is about 30% to small :)

so whats the answer then ? how can you make sure CoD is correctly configured so that distant 109 is the "right size" (same size as it would be seen with the naked eye from a similar viewing position in real life)

I dont have time....
Tell us more...

[zapatista]

eh so if you cant even be bothered measuring it :P

you indicated earlier in this thread that you know what size these distant aircraft would be in real life when measured on a real ww2 gunsight reticle but mow cant be bothered putting a ruler on the screen to measure if it is also displayed correctly in size ? so do you then think/presume they are currently displayed in their correct sizes on your pc screen when you fly around in CoD ?

i would have thought that for most people here, since they have an interest in simulating a ww2 pilots experience, it would seem pretty important to at least see distant aircraft in their right sizes, rather then hunt for miniature dinky-toy objects in a virtual sky that are 30% to small (for many here, exact distortion will depend on end user setup). since we have already some LoD model bugs and LoD model visibility problems already that make these aircraft around us harder to spot, i would have thought displaying these distant aircraft in their right sizes would have been a pretty important starting point for any self professed virtual pilot going around "full real" :) then again, maybe not and i am presuming to much from my fellow man :P

so, anybody ?

[raaaid]

this still has to come to air war sims:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqu9NuINKbc

[raaaid]

oki doki, but the real question after that is ............

how can you make sure that the onscreen displayed distant aircraft in your CoD gunsight reticle is 100% displayed correctly in the right size on your pc screen,

you have to set your self to the right distance so it APPEARS right

if you have 90º fov the screen has to take 90º from your eyes, the vertical of the screen

in fact 6dof is wrongly render for the flaw you just pointed

edit:

btw an optical gunsight will always have same angular size however distant your eyes to it

[zapatista]

anybody else with a more coherent answer ?

[5./JG27.Farber]

eh so if you cant even be bothered measuring it :P

you indicated earlier in this thread that you know what size these distant aircraft would be in real life when measured on a real ww2 gunsight reticle but mow cant be bothered putting a ruler on the screen to measure if it is also displayed correctly in size ? so do you then think/presume they are currently displayed in their correct sizes on your pc screen when you fly around in CoD ?

i would have thought that for most people here, since they have an interest in simulating a ww2 pilots experience, it would seem pretty important to at least see distant aircraft in their right sizes, rather then hunt for miniature dinky-toy objects in a virtual sky that are 30% to small (for many here, exact distortion will depend on end user setup). since we have already some LoD model bugs and LoD model visibility problems already that make these aircraft around us harder to spot, i would have thought displaying these distant aircraft in their right sizes would have been a pretty important starting point for any self professed virtual pilot going around "full real" :) then again, maybe not and i am presuming to much from my fellow man :P

so, anybody ?

Which POV though?! My eyes dont have POV in real life...

I didnt come here to get in a urinating contest with anyone, if you have a point please share it, it seems quite interesting but I dont have time for guessing games. I just cme here to help someone with a question, even if it is a Raaaid thread...

I have to get my end of module assessment in and do an exam...

[SlipBall]

eh so if you cant even be bothered measuring it :P

you indicated earlier in this thread that you know what size these distant aircraft would be in real life when measured on a real ww2 gunsight reticle but mow cant be bothered putting a ruler on the screen to measure if it is also displayed correctly in size ? so do you then think/presume they are currently displayed in their correct sizes on your pc screen when you fly around in CoD ?

i would have thought that for most people here, since they have an interest in simulating a ww2 pilots experience, it would seem pretty important to at least see distant aircraft in their right sizes, rather then hunt for miniature dinky-toy objects in a virtual sky that are 30% to small (for many here, exact distortion will depend on end user setup). since we have already some LoD model bugs and LoD model visibility problems already that make these aircraft around us harder to spot, i would have thought displaying these distant aircraft in their right sizes would have been a pretty important starting point for any self professed virtual pilot going around "full real" :) then again, maybe not and i am presuming to much from my fellow man :P

so, anybody ?

zapatista, I have changed my thinking on this and agree that objects/especially ground in the distance are rendered too small in the game...and speed of aircraft while looking to ones side view/low alt. is way to slow.

[Art-J]

Zapa, I don't quite get Your leaning-comparison from post #11. It doesn't matter whether one almost puts his nose in the monitor, or looks at it from the opposite side of the room - the relative size of 109 and gunsight reticle remains the same - you lean closer, the 109 gets twice bigger, but so does the reticle, just like the whole displayed image. Leaning to 2D image on the screen cannot be compared directly to leaning in real cockpit, unless the real pilot suddenly decides to look at his cockpit or through his gunsight using a pair of binoculars ;).

But then again, You seem to note just that in the last part of Your post... so now I have no idea what You're up to :D.

P.S. - What do You mean by "game and PC setup correctly"? Is it the one where objects in the cockpit (gunsight, gauges etc.) are displayed in "real" size? If that is the case, then I'm afraid only a minority of players (the ones with single enormous screens, TV projectors or triple screen hardware) are interested in dealing with problems discussed above!

[zapatista]

zapatista, I have changed my thinking on this and agree that objects/especially ground in the distance are rendered too small in the game...and speed of aircraft while looking to ones side view/low alt. is way to slow.

you'r halfway there, at least you noticed there IS a problem with ingame planes/ground-objects not being displayed in their correct sizes for many CoD users :)

and yes, your observations relate to the exact same issue i am trying to raise :P

[zapatista]

hiya Art,

Zapa, I don't quite get Your leaning-comparison from post #11. It doesn't matter whether one almost puts his nose in the monitor, or looks at it from the opposite side of the room - the relative size of 109 and gunsight reticle remains the same - you lean closer, the 109 gets twice bigger, but so does the reticle, just like the whole displayed image.

i tried to deliberately not give that example with the distant plane seen through the gunsight retticle (unless i miss typed in one of my examples), and was giving the example for a plane seen from the virtual cockpit in general. eg if you pause the game and then lean closer to the screen the distant plane object will be much easier to see (which would not be the case in a real aircraft cockpit). i only stated the example with the gunsight included it to avoid somebody raising that exact issue out of context later, so lets maybe leave it aside.


- What do You mean by "game and PC setup correctly"? Is it the one where objects in the cockpit (gunsight, gauges etc.) are displayed in "real" size?
you could use that as an example, but it tried to avoid using an in cockpit object for the comparison to real life since it is complicated by other issues to. but you are right about the concept it also applies there but is maybe less important and a bit more tricky. its easier and more obvious to deal with trying to display the correct size of a distant aircraft on your pc monitor (with or without looking through the reticle of the gunsight), and i referred to looking at it through the gunsight reticle because that provides an indication that the reticle function works correctly ingame (which it didnt in il2-1946).

its just that for most CoD pc players both the gunsight reticle size and distant aircraft sizes are "wrong", but proportionately both are distorted in the same way so their relative relationship looks right (eg a 10m wide 109 at 100meters is correctly displayed in the reticle as being 10 cm wide, as measure by counting reticle markings), its just that on your screen it wont be 10 cm wide when you measure it after pausing the game

If that is the case, then I'm afraid only a minority of players (the ones with single enormous screens, TV projectors or triple screen hardware) are interested in dealing with problems discussed above!
yes that is the issue, but for people with giant screens that 109 at 100 meters might be displayed to large on such a huge display, having a huge display might now make things to big :)

so how can you correctly configure your personal CoD setup (be this a normal pc monitor in front of you, a multi monitor setup, or a very large single screen ) so these ingame objects are displayed in their correct sizes (1:1 as would be seen with the human eye in a similar RL viewing condition) ? this is possible in principle in CoD, just not many do it or know how to do it. this is not just important for seeing objects/aircraft correctly, but if objects are displayed the wrong sizes it also distorts your sense of speed and makes it harder to aim etc..

[raaaid]

i already answered your question and this is an old topic if you ignore it let it be info for the rest


30º fov implies you set your monitor distance so the vertical of the screen has an angular size of 30º implies objects appear at real size

you neither paid attention how winscape solved this issue of varying distance to screen with head trackers to show a realistic size rendition

[zapatista]

raid,
if you havnt articulated your comments coherently, others here cant decipher what you might have intended to say. no rudeness intended on my part, i am trying to avoid adding in more levels of unnecessary confusion.

your original post question in this thread seems to have been answered, and others now are now diverging on another tangent

..... let it be info for the rest
yes :)

[zapatista]

with all the self proclaimed "full real" affectionado's trawling aviation forums, bit surprising still no real answers are provided :)

seems the cigar will stay in the box for now

[ZaltysZ]

F=2*atan(w/d/2)

w - screen width;
d - distance from viewer to screen;
F - in game FOV for 1:1 scale;

Setting FOV according to this, you will get real life sized objects on the screen, however that FOV will be too narrow for adequate SA in most use cases (i.e. using average display at normal distance).

[zapatista]

F=2*atan(w/d/2)

w - screen width;
d - distance from viewer to screen;
F - in game FOV for 1:1 scale;

Setting FOV according to this, you will get real life sized objects on the screen, however that FOV will be too narrow for adequate SA in most use cases (i.e. using average display at normal distance).

exatemoundo !

give the man some el primo cubanos :)

to translate it into plain english:
- if you use a FoV that is to wide for your display, all ingame objects will shrink in size compared to what they should look like in real life (but you gain extra peripheral vision). conversely, using a to-narrow FoV for your monitor size will artificially magnify all ingame objects (and simultaneously narrow your peripheral vision).
- using the correct FoV will allow all ingame objects to be correctly displayed in size, but your ingame peripheral vision will only be as good/wide as your monitor is wide (if you then want better SA, get a larger monitor or consider using multiple monitors). if the game is coded/programmed/designed correctly you should now be able to spot all distant aircraft (or ground objects like trucks/tanks) from exactly the same distances as you will be able to see/spot them in real life. you can then briefly still snap to a narrow view for more specific aiming, or briefly use a wider FoV during a dogfight to improve your SA (but it will distort your sense of distance and speed).

if you want to experience the virtual ingame CoD world "correctly", and see all in-game objects in their correct sizes (which will affect your sensation of speed and perception of altitude as well etc), you MUST be using this "correct FoV" setting most of the time while flying around :) if you then still cant spot that distant aircraft at 1000 or 1500 m (which you would be able to see/spot in a similar real life situation) then there is an error in the game where these distant LoD models in CoD dont stand out enough (or contain errors, like some of the old spitfire lod models in the original il2 series which had missing wings etc)

regarding viewing distances, be aware that most pc gamers will sit with their eyes/head at roughly an arms length from the monitor on their desk (in comparison, for users of large displays like projectors and large lcd tv, on average they will sit at a distance of 2x the height of the screen ). to get the needed variables to calculate your "correct FoV", measure the approx distance from your eye's to the monitor (used during game play), and then measure how wide the monitor display area is, then use the appropriate formulae to calculate the exact FoV figure it represents, and then simply set the il2 game to that wide setting.

for those who have problems spotting/seeing/tracking nearby or distant aircraft (or ground targets), this should be a significant help. it will also reduce the problem of the disappearing LoD models for most (unless the game contains LoD model design errors)

note: if you use a trackir, it is pretty amazing to see how the gunsights in CoD are correctly modeled to allow 3DoF and the gunsight reticle functions correctly as it would in a real cockpit with you leaning forward/back

[zapatista]

zapatista, I have changed my thinking on this and agree that objects/especially ground in the distance are rendered too small in the game...and speed of aircraft while looking to ones side view/low alt. is way to slow.

if you set your FoV correctly, as just detailed in the previous 2 posts, you WILL see all ingame objects (like distant planes and trucks/tanks) in their correct sizes (and so should be as easy/difficult to spot as they are in real life)

similarly, with your FoV set correctly your sense of speed when flying low to the ground will now be correct :)

[SlipBall]

if you set your FoV correctly, as just detailed in the previous 2 posts, you WILL see all ingame objects (like distant planes and trucks/tanks) in their correct sizes (and so should be as easy/difficult to spot as they are in real life)

similarly, with your FoV set correctly your sense of speed when flying low to the ground will now be correct :)


So Zap there is 30/70/90 degrees, which is correct

[zapatista]

what size is your monitor ?

and during game play what distance are you most comfortable with as a viewing distance for your monitor ? (eg distance between eyes and monitor)

[SlipBall]

what size is your monitor ?

and during game play what distance are you most comfortable with as a viewing distance for your monitor ? (eg distance between eyes and monitor)


24"...2 feet away...thanks Zap

[zapatista]

24"...2 feet away...thanks Zap

hiya slipball,

i'll convert your inches to cm since i mainly use metric, but you can also use inches. the way i write the formulae is slightly different version then the previous poster, but the principle is the same. always use horizontal viewable area of your screen size, and not diagonal measurements (which is what screen sizes for monitors are advertised in)

the purpose of this is to have the size of the screen in front of you (viewable area) represent exactly the % of your real life FoV. when you then use this setting in the il2/CoD series of games you should now be able to see all ingame objects exactly in their 1:1 sizes compared to what you would see in real life if "looking out a window" in a similar situation ( at the same object from the same distance). since object size (incl buildings etc) significantly affect your sense of speed and perception of distance, for a flightsim this "FoV variable' would seem rather important to get right (since we are presumably interested in SIMULATING what a real ww2 pilot would see in similar circumstances).

FoV = {arctan [( monitor size / 2) / viewing distance ] } x2

or slightly more verbose, to clarify:
"CoD correct FoV setting" = {arctan [(size horz monitor / 2) / viewing distance ] } x2

which in your case means:
FoV = { arctan [( 52 cm / 2) / 60 cm)] } x2
FoV = { arctan [ 26 cm / 60 cm ] } x2
FoV = { arctan [ 0.4333 ] } x2
FoV = { 23.42 } x 2
FoV = 46.84

so in your case you would select 45 FoV (in the old il2 series 1946 etc you could for ex set the FoV by 5 degree steps between 35 and 90). at that point all ingame objects should be 1:1 in their correct sizes, you should be able to see/spot/track them from the same distance as in real life and your "sense of speed" in flying should be correct.

if any distant aircraft/trucks/tanks are then still harder to see then in RL then there is a design error in the game (for ex faulty lod models with missing parts, like we had for some spitfire models in the old il2 with missing wings etc). some people in CoD use "tricks" to try and improve visibility of distant aircraft (the mesh hack, adding AA, changing contrasts, changing screen resolution) but the first and most important thing to get right is to set the FoV correctly. once that is done you have a normal baseline of comparison between players and different pc systems, and we can compare on equal terms what people can or cant see, and then compare this to real life events. and if some still think visibility is not as good as in real life, then we should look for in-game errors or specific game visibility issues (for ex adding visibility enhancements for the smallest most distant Lod models for ex, eg painting them darker or brighter) to bring CoD object visibility closer to what we would see in real life.

note for calculating FoV with above method:
- make sure you always use screen viewing area (not monitor size with bezel included), and use horizontal size not diagonal size
- use same measurement values (meters, cm or inch etc) in all parts of formulae

interestingly you'll find a significant amount of fake-real wannabe's "game the game" in il2 by using zoom views to scan for distant object (no fighter pilot in ww2 used binoculars to hunt for targets, and neither did they have binoculars strapped to their helmets with a magic zoom/wide button), and although intuitively many of us want to use the "wide" view during a dogfight to increase SA of aircraft around us, it is also disorienting because using the wide view proportionately shrinks these same objects around us in size so they now seem farther away (and it distorts the sens of speed in closing/disengaging). there is nothing wrong with briefly snapping to zoom/wide views in il2/cod imho to make up for the fact we are sitting in our living rooms behind a relatively small monitor, instead of having a real cockpit 360 degree view like real pilots, but .... but the purpose/setup imho in CoD/il2 should focus on representing a correct view of the ingame world most of the time.

[SlipBall]

OK cool much appreciated, thanks for your time

[zapatista]

OK cool much appreciated, thanks for your time
so have you set your CoD to a 45 FoV to see if it makes a difference in improving your distant object visibility and sense of speed ?

was expecting it to raise and additional question :)

[raaaid]

and what happens with 6d0f trackers in which distance to screen is not fixed?:-P

[zapatista]

and what happens with 6d0f trackers in which distance to screen is not fixed?:-P

using trackir w 6dof in CoD works exactly as intended
- when you lean forward for ex all instruments and dials in the cockpit magnify proportionately and are easier to read
- the distant objects you look at, for ex an aircraft at 600 m or a ship at 1000 m will not change in size (as they shouldnt)
note: also the gunsight works correctly

using trackir, if your FoV is set correctly, leaning forward or back will not change the size (significantly) of any distant ingame object you are viewing on your screen

[raaaid]

nope you got the fixed point of view concept right but the moving point of view concept wrong

if you move forward fov should increase to keep at 1:1 aspect ratio but currently it remains constant and some implementation do it even worse and when you close by fov decreases

gates intelligently as usual figured it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2hxaijuZ6w

[raaaid]

- the distant objects you look at, for ex an aircraft at 600 m or a ship at 1000 m will not change in size (as they shouldnt)


this is where you go wrong if you half your distance to the screen distant objects will appear double big on the screen and therefore half as distant in your brain

[zapatista]

this is where you go wrong if you half your distance to the screen distant objects will appear double big on the screen and therefore half as distant in your brain

wrong

my earlier statement was entirely correct

maybe you mean to say something different then what you are typing (or are not able to understand coherently what others have communicated), but from what you just stated you are mixing up your apples and pears and are making a soup of things.
- leaning forward to your screen in CoD with the trackir 6DoF (if correctly implemented) will not "make distant *aircraft* objects appear double big on the screen". "in cockpit" objects like dials and control will be relatively larger (same as leaning forward to a close-by object in RL) because it now occupies a larger part of your eye's FoV, but any distant object (like an aircraft at 500 m for ex) willl NOT now suddenly "appear double big on the screen", and it will in fact stay the same size on your screen (as they should, and would in RL if you lean closer to a window pane while looking at an aircraft 500 m away). that is exactly the whole point i was making earlier.
- btw, regarding terminology you use, leaning forward to your screen in CoD without the trackir 6DoF will still not "make distant *aircraft* objects appear double big on the screen" (their size will remain unchanged on the screen), but because after leaning closer to the screen they now occupy a larger part of your eyeball FoV this means that to your brain they will appear larger. obviously the dials and controls of the cockpit will appear to your brain to enlarge when you lean forward as they would in RL (because in the RL cockpit they are at arms length from you, and the screen for most pc gamers is also at arms length from them), meaning that when you lean closer to these nearby objects they now occupy a significantly larger part of your FoV (but without the 6dof track-ir, if you measure them onscreen they remain unchanged in size obviously).

the earlier statement i made in my previous post is only for the trackir 6DoF principle, presuming the track ir is working correctly (and is implemented as intended). so WITH the correctly functioning track-ir 6DoF in that case, "leaning forward" in the cockpit will:
a) visually magnify to you the dials and controls in the cockpit (depending on how much closer you lean), this occurs simply because they now occupy a larger part of your eyeball FoV when you lean forwards, exactly as happens in normal RL situation.
b) distant aircraft seen from the cockpit (for ex a 109 at 1000 meters) will stay exactly the same size to your eye FoV (as they would in real life, because leaning 20 cm closer to an object 500 meters away does NOT make it occupy a larger part of your eyeball FoV).

and as i also previously stated the amazing design of CoD even gives you a working reflector gunsight if you use the 6DoF of your trackir (whuch illustrates this point exactly), where, as you lean forward the whole gunsight will appear larger to you (since you are leaning closer to it) but the illuminated gunsight reticle you are aiming with at a distant aircraft will stay the correct size in proportion to the distant aircraft you are looking at (which remains unchanged in size)

without the trackir 6DoF in CoD the size changes of the in=cockpit and "distant external objects" will stay "coupled' (which it doesnt in RL):
- "leaning forward" in the cockpit will then
a) visually magnify to you the dials and controls in the cockpit (depending on how much closer you lean)
b) distant aircraft seen from the cockpit will similarly appear to visually magnify on screen to your eye FoV (which they shouldnt, and they obviously dont do in a similar RL situation) because their size might remain unchanged on the screen but you have now leaned significantly closer to it so it will occupy a larger relative part of your eye FoV


but there is no need to digress into all of that, the whole point about the FoV discussion in the previous posts i made is that, with your FoV correctly setup for your monitor size (and you using your preferred viewing distance as a starting point when you setup the game), then from then onwards (because later you'll move your head at various times closer or further away from the screen), the distant objects (outside the cockpit) should constantly still appear to you in their correct 1:1 sizes (while leaning closer to the cockpit dials/controls will make them easier to read). hence the importance of knowing what your personal "correct FoV" is, and setting up CoD/il2 accordingly at the start of gameplay.

[zapatista]

SlipBall,

have you tried to set your CoD FoV to 45 to see if that improved your flying experience ?

[SlipBall]

No I have not yet busy real world right now...when I do fly I usually use the 90 though and wish there was a higher one offered just to try. I think humans have an 180 degree field of view both hor & vert

[zapatista]

hiya slipnall

.......when I do fly I usually use the 90 though

then that there is part of your answer re your observation earlier in the thread


zapatista, I have changed my thinking on this and agree that objects/especially ground in the distance are rendered too small in the game

if we just determined the "correct FoV" for your personal setup is 45 FoV and you are instead flying around most of the time in 90 FoV then you have shrunk all ingame objects (houses, ships, trees, vehicles and aircraft etc) to 1/2 their normal sizes. its not that they are wrong in the game, you just shrunk them :)

...and speed of aircraft while looking to ones side view/low alt. is way to slow.

since your brain uses a visual reference point of how large those objects normally would be (from your previous real life experience in a similar environment, eg when looking at a house o building from a partic distance), having the ingame objects rendered at 1/2 their normal sizes significantly distorts your sense of speed (because your brain thinks these objects must be much further away from you).

try setting CoD to 45 FoV during a joy flight, and compare how different your sense of speed is when flying low down, and compare how easy/hard it is to spot/track/identify different distant objects, you should find it much easier (if you'r able to set CoD to 45 FoV)

[raaaid]

for everybodys education:

for a realistic appearance fov must be adjusted according to distance to screen as zapatista explains

with different distances to screen with the same screen you use different fovs

therefore if you vary distance to screen you must change fov to be realistic

current trackir doent change fov when you vary distance so its wrongly implemented