WOtif Hitler had NOT attacked Russia

[He111]

.. and the non-aggression pact turned into an alliance, could Germany and Russia sold planes to each other? ie Stuka replacement might be a ground-attack IL2 ? Russia flying 109Gs ? more development of jet aircraft ? He 111s with red stars ?

Poor Britain! Spits , Hurris, Wellingtons V all the best Germany and the Soviet union could throw at her!

would have been very difficult for the US to enter the war in Europe although Pacific theatre would get more attention, IF japan still attacked Pearl Harbour.

Makes you think, we could easily be living under dictatorships in the west!

scary!

.

[chantaje]

Makes you think, we could easily be living under dictatorships in the west!

scary!

.
you are. democracy its only an illusion

[Skoshi Tiger]

What if's are good.

IF Hitler had been sane then he could have developed economic poliocies to bring Germany out of their depression and they could have become an economic power without draging the world into massive conflict and the loss of so much life.

It's a pitty that his grip on power was based on fear, violence and the lie that it was always other people who were to blame for their problems.

[jojimbo]

What if Hitler had not invaded Poland, and just re-occupied the Polish corridor from Danzig to Konigsberg, leaving Russia to invade Poland from the East?

The British and French in an alliance with Germany declare war on Russia?
no Western Theatre, The Russians would have been smashed and Stalin sues for peace, abandoning Moskow and retreating to the Urals.

History rewritten,

food for thought

[He111]

What if's are good.

IF Hitler had been sane then he could have developed economic poliocies to bring Germany out of their depression and they could have become an economic power without draging the world into massive conflict and the loss of so much life.

It's a pitty that his grip on power was based on fear, violence and the lie that it was always other people who were to blame for their problems.

He was and did, as soon as the war started, unemployment around europe vanished overnight. Actually unemployment vanished in Germany before the outbreak of war.

You would need to be superman to solve a world wide great depression with just keynesian economics .. or any legal economic theory for that matter.

.

[CaptainDoggles]

Oh good, another one of these threads.

[Kongo-Otto]

Impossible "What if" Scenario" he already wrote that he will gain "Living space in the east" when he wrote "Mein Kampf" wayback in Jail in Landsberg 1924.
No way that such a "What if" scenario ever would have happenend.
Read that crapbook and you will find a timeline for the later war including the final solution, the Anschluss of Austria etc.
The only things he didin't expect was France and the Empire to fight for Poland and that he had to declare war against the USA because of his treaty with the Japanese.

[Verhängnis]

What if, Hitler was actually assassinated before it all?

[csThor]

A Hitler without his ideological pet crusade against the Soviet Union wouldn't be the historical figure Hitler. Besides, I think it would have been a question of time only until the red and the brown wolf would have turned against each other. Both followed ideologies which contained ideas of "world dominance" so a clash of the two systems was "systemic" and therefor inevitable.

[Feathered_IV]

What if the Germans had stood up to hitler in the early days and said No to all his aryan destiny blood and shite talk?

[Kongo-Otto]

What if the Germans had stood up to hitler in the early days and said No to all his aryan destiny blood and shite talk?

Good question! But that also wouldn't have happenend because nobody took him for serious. Not to forget that antisemitism was very common back that days not only in Germany.

[CaptainDoggles]

These threads ALWAYS go somewhere positive.

Always.

[Kongo-Otto]

These threads ALWAYS go somewhere positive.

Always.

What's wrong with them in your opinion? (politely asked)
Please share your thoughts.

[s_goretsky]

The whole Hitler's war machine could not predict the results of the attack on Russia, and you want to predict what would happen if nazi did not attack? Impossible. Everything could happen.

[Trooper117]

Tin hats everyone!...

[=CfC= Father Ted]

I'll just take it back to the aircraft question before I leap into the nearest slit trench...

Most of the development of military equipment is driven by actual conflict rather than its threat (just look at the difference between A/c of 1914 and 1918, and 1939-1945). If the Russians had not had to fight Hitler they probably wouldn't have developed anything that the Luftwaffe would have wanted to buy.

[Fjordmonkey]

The whole Hitler's war machine could not predict the results of the attack on Russia, and you want to predict what would happen if nazi did not attack? Impossible. Everything could happen.

Strange that everyone else could predict it :P

When you invade Russia, you're not just fighting the people of the land, but also the land itself. As the germans learned, disregard the Russian winter at your own peril.

Of course, it helps that the german high command was infected with a special breed of stupid when it came to outfitting their soldiers with adequate winter-gear.

[He111]

I don't believe that it was inevitable that the red and Black dogs would fight. Yes, hitler wrote "I'm camp - picnicing in eastern woods" but he also had secret deals with the soviets to train aircrews. How would this be possible if Stalin read his book and believed it ? He Obviously conned stalin that this book was a ruse to trick the western allies. It nearly worked!

There's been many examples of powerful armies being destroyed in Russian winters, Hitler should have taken these warnings.

Germany and Russia could have been good allies, german expertice traded for Russian resources.

There you go skinners, German aircraft with red stars V british supplied middle eastern states. Stuka II (IL2) V Great Britain. :grin:

Damn scary scenario, all it would have taken is Hitler with an ounce of common sense .. glad he did have any.

.

[Kongo-Otto]

...but he also had secret deals with the soviets to train aircrews.
.
The secret Training of German aircrews at Lipetsk in the Sovietunion was ended by Hitler after he came to power, to be exact it ended in September 1933. :rolleyes:

[ATAG_Doc]

What if the Germans had stood up to hitler in the early days and said No to all his aryan destiny blood and shite talk?

And what if the people of Iran stood up against their leaders Aryan roots? That would be cool but it's not happening. The word Iran is the Persian word for land/place of the Aryan.

[fruitbat]

I've always thought an interesting 'what if' would be if the English Channel wasn't there.......

Almost certainly in may/june 1940 England would of fallen after France, No north Africa campaign, so all the suez oil for Germany, no big aircraft carrier of the continent to bomb Germany night and day, and more than likely no USA involved in Europe at all, so Germany would of been free in its attack on the USSR.

reckon they would of got the a bomb first as well, scary stuff.

I love the English channel!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Makes you think, we could easily be living under dictatorships in the west!

scary!


Scary?

No.. more sad than scary, in that we are living under a semi dictatorship in the west! The USA today is more of a fascism state than Germany was in WWII.. And when I say facism.. I mean the clasical definition, not the new age (hippy) definition to take the focus off the fact that we are by trying to re-define facism as a system with an elected dictator

[Wolf_Rider]

What if... Hitler had have been accepted into the art school he so cherished, instead of the path taken?

[arthursmedley]

If only Hitler had had more than one ball!

[WTE_Galway]

Scary?

No.. more sad than scary, in that we are living under a semi dictatorship in the west! The USA today is more of a fascism state than Germany was in WWII.. And when I say facism.. I mean the clasical definition, not the new age (hippy) definition to take the focus off the fact that we are by trying to re-define facism as a system with an elected dictator


The classical definition of fascism does not require a dictatorship merely patriotism, nationalism and authoritarianism.

Classical fascism was a Nationalistic state where patriotism was encouraged and the welfare of the nation was placed above that of individuals. Where necessary this was enforced by authoritarian measures.

A particular feature of NSDAP fascism was the view that capitalism was a bad thing and corporate power a threat to the well being of the state.

The US on the other hand is moving towards a situation where corporate well being is valued above that of both the individual and the nation itself. Though this is clearly undesirable it is also clearly not fascism.

[=CfC= Father Ted]

Scary?

No.. more sad than scary, in that we are living under a semi dictatorship in the west! The USA today is more of a fascism state than Germany was in WWII.. And when I say facism.. I mean the clasical definition, not the new age (hippy) definition to take the focus off the fact that we are by trying to re-define facism as a system with an elected dictator

This is just bizarre!

What is the "clasical" definition of "facism", and how does it differ from the "new age (hippy)" one?

Please explain: "The USA today is more of a fascism state than Germany was in WWII.."

Edit: thankyou Galway - though I think I'll leave the "bizarre" in

[He111]

The classical definition of fascism does not require a dictatorship merely patriotism, nationalism and authoritarianism.

Classical fascism was a Nationalistic state where patriotism was encouraged and the welfare of the nation was placed above that of individuals. Where necessary this was enforced by authoritarian measures.

A particular feature of NSDAP fascism was the view that capitalism was a bad thing and corporate power a threat to the well being of the state.

The US on the other hand is moving towards a situation where corporate well being is valued above that of both the individual and the nation itself. Though this is clearly undesirable it is also clearly not fascism.

.. corporate state .. sounds about right, good if you own shares in these corporates, live in poverty if you don't.

1C released 1946 based on a what-if, which we all love, German and Soviet Alliance pact is another great what-if scenario.

Hey, i'm just trying to fill time while waiting for some news .. this forum is becoming as quiet as a grave ..

.

[5./JG27.Farber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIqosCld4R8&feature=g-vrec

[Wolf_Rider]

The classical definition of fascism does not require a dictatorship merely patriotism, nationalism and authoritarianism.

Classical fascism was a Nationalistic state where patriotism was encouraged and the welfare of the nation was placed above that of individuals. Where necessary this was enforced by authoritarian measures.

A particular feature of NSDAP fascism was the view that capitalism was a bad thing and corporate power a threat to the well being of the state.

The US on the other hand is moving towards a situation where corporate well being is valued above that of both the individual and the nation itself. Though this is clearly undesirable it is also clearly not fascism.


yes... National Socialism, with "Corporatism" the second you mention is the other face of that same coin



This is just bizarre!

What is the "clasical" definition of "facism", and how does it differ from the "new age (hippy)" one?

Please explain: "The USA today is more of a fascism state than Germany was in WWII.."

Edit: thankyou Galway - though I think I'll leave the "bizarre" in

Well, "fascist" and "Nazi" is thrown out by those who do not like what the other person is saying, or as a putdown statement to opposition in an attempt to shut them up... all of which are inherent traits of a fascist (ie shutting down the opposition)

[Old-Banger]

What if France had walked into the Ruhr while Hitler was pre-occupied with Poland?

[5./JG27.Farber]

What if France had walked into the Ruhr while Hitler was pre-occupied with Poland?

They would have come under fire from the Siegfried line?

[swiss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIqosCld4R8&feature=g-vrec

What an a-hole.
Although I do understand his point I prefer to be nice to gov employees.
PPL complaining about BC are usually pro immigrant too...
Right, poor 'lil Mexicans. argh.

[Old-Banger]

They would have come under fire from the Siegfried line?

Yes, I suppose so. But was the Siegfied line fully in place in 1939? I wonder what sort of forces were left to defend the west front?

So how about: what if the largest Army in Europe at the time could have shown a little of the lateral thinking that the German Army employed (thinking of Ardennes here)? Not a criticism of the French, by the way, but if only some of their (and the British after they mobilised) commanders could have shown similiar initiative. But I guess that is the beauty of looking back after the event - it all looks so easy.

[arthursmedley]

So how about: what if the largest Army in Europe at the time could have shown a little of the lateral thinking that the German Army employed (thinking of Ardennes here)? Not a criticism of the French, by the way, but if only some of their (and the British after they mobilised) commanders could have shown similiar initiative.



Such a decision to advance into Germany would have had to be taken at the highest political level. Not by a mere military commander.
Ooops! What am I talking about? Such a decision was taken at the highest political level. We decided to sit on our hands.
How about; what if France had got off it's backside when Hitler re-militerized the Rhineland? Would the Wehrmacht kicked Hitler out of power?

Or even; what if the Queen had bollocks?
Oh yeah, she'd be the King.

[swiss]

Such a decision to advance into Germany would have had to be taken at the highest political level. Not by a mere military commander.
Ooops! What am I talking about? Such a decision was taken at the highest political level. We decided to sit on our hands.
How about; what if France had got off it's backside when Hitler re-militerized the Rhineland? Would the Wehrmacht kicked Hitler out of power?

Or even; what if the Queen had bollocks?
Oh yeah, she'd be the King.

The French?
Kick?
Out of power?
roflamo.

[He111]

hmmm my original post was to hint at a 1946 replacement, German & Russian planes mixed together in mass-meglo-dictator-alliance V the rest of the world.

But i've parted the hair of many and straight through to the keeper! .. :grin:

.

[tk471138]

Scary?

No.. more sad than scary, in that we are living under a semi dictatorship in the west! The USA today is more of a fascism state than Germany was in WWII.. And when I say facism.. I mean the clasical definition, not the new age (hippy) definition to take the focus off the fact that we are by trying to re-define facism as a system with an elected dictator



i think he means the essence of fascism is the merging of the govt (state) and corporations...


also this changing the definition thing that the govt has been involved in was something George Orwell (Eric Blair) incorporated in to his book...this is what govts do...for instance the govt calls all drug narcotics...when in fact a narcotic is only referring to an opiate....why do this when its simply incorrect...to sensationalize...

another area in which this is commonly employed is the law...thats why in many laws they redefine the normal meanings of words, giving them a totally new meaning that applies only to the law...just another way to mislead the people...


the whole reason for this is to make it easier for the people to accept authoritarianism....

[WTE_Galway]

i think he means the essence of fascism is the merging of the govt (state) and corporations...



But a tenant of NSDAP fascism was opposition to capitalism. The Nazi's saw corporate power as a threat to the well being of the state.

I think these days "fascism" has simply become synonymous with authoritarianism.

As a case in point, you regularly get people saying silly stuff like "fascism and communism are really the same thing" when the only thing they actually have in common is a propensity to resort to authoritarian rule.

[Al Schlageter]

What if France had walked into the Ruhr while Hitler was pre-occupied with Poland?

France did occupy part of the Saar.

Wiki
The French assault was to be carried out by roughly 40 divisions, including one armoured division, three mechanized divisions, 78 artillery regiments and 40 tank battalions. All the necessary forces were mobilised in the first week of September. On September 12, the Anglo French Supreme War Council gathered for the first time at Abbeville in France. It was decided that all offensive actions were to be halted immediately. By then, the French divisions have advanced approximately eight kilometres into Germany on a 24 kilometres long strip of the frontier in the Saarland area. Maurice Gamelin ordered his troops to stop not closer than 1 kilometre from the German positions along the Siegfried Line. Poland was not notified of this decision. Instead, Gamelin informed marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły that half of his divisions are in contact with the enemy, and that French advances have forced the Wehrmacht to withdraw at least six divisions from Poland. The following day, the commander of the French Military Mission to Poland, General Louis Faury, informed the Polish Chief of Staff, General Wacław Stachiewicz, that the planned major offensive on the western front had to be postponed from September 17 to September 20. At the same time, French divisions were ordered to retreat to their barracks along the Maginot Line.

[lonewulf]

What if the Germans had stood up to hitler in the early days and said No to all his aryan destiny blood and shite talk?

What if the French hadn't imposed ruinous, vindictive conditions on the Germans after WW1? (They were already starving for god's sake so what more did they want) What if the European nations had owned up to a shared responsibility for the outbreak of WW1? What if Britain had stayed out of the War and left it to the continental powers to resolve?

[swiss]

What if the French hadn't imposed ruinous, vindictive conditions on the Germans after WW1? (They were already starving for god's sake so what more did they want) What if the European nations had owned up to a shared responsibility for the outbreak of WW1? What if Britain had stayed out of the War and left it to the continental powers to resolve?

+1

[Fjordmonkey]

What if the French hadn't imposed ruinous, vindictive conditions on the Germans after WW1? (They were already starving for god's sake so what more did they want) What if the European nations had owned up to a shared responsibility for the outbreak of WW1? What if Britain had stayed out of the War and left it to the continental powers to resolve?

You mean having politicians and kings/royalty publicly admit that they messed up and was wrong?

Won't ever happen :P

[arthursmedley]

You mean having politicians and kings/royalty publicly admit that they messed up and was wrong?

Won't ever happen :P

Exactly. Which is why Nato troops and Afghan civilians are still dying for no good reason whatsoever.

[He111]

Actually you could say it was the Great Depression that allowed Hitler and others into power , and the great depression was caused by the Stock market crash, which in turn was caused by greedy people borrowing money to punt on the stock market, with little regulation. sounds familar ?

.

[MB_Avro_UK]

A Hitler without his ideological pet crusade against the Soviet Union wouldn't be the historical figure Hitler. Besides, I think it would have been a question of time only until the red and the brown wolf would have turned against each other. Both followed ideologies which contained ideas of "world dominance" so a clash of the two systems was "systemic" and therefor inevitable.

Indeed.

[Oldschool61]

Actually you could say it was the Great Depression that allowed Hitler and others into power , and the great depression was caused by the Stock market crash, which in turn was caused by greedy people borrowing money to punt on the stock market, with little regulation. sounds familar ?

.

Sounds alot like republican policy!!