Black or Red?!

[5./JG27.Farber]

For a long time I searched for the answer to the question - Is the horizontal bar on 5./JG27 aircraft black or red?! I could'nt find an answer and just left it untill EZ made some skins for 5./JG27 which made me think of the problem again. Now I just cant let it go....

In the game, its black and black...

So can you help? Is it black or red?


Could it be?


Did any other regular day fighter squadron use a number and bar that was a different colour from each other?
Often in Illustrations its red but have they just copied each other?
Could it indeed have been black number and red bar but they changed after a certain date?
Could the aircraft be "hand me downs" from another squadron that had red numbers and bar and they only repainted the number? - 5./JG27 were outfitted with brand new F's before going to North Africa...
The bar always looks lighter on black and white pictures because of the curviture of the fusalage? Paint doesnt stick as well or is different kind of paint? Less paint? Only need painting on once but aircraft numbers change regulary and are fresher?!
Short on black paint so used the next best thing which was red? - but again and again?


I think what would just really solve it is one colour photograph that was deffinatley 5./JG27...


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/Bf-109E-5JG27-B2--belly-landed-1940-01.jpg

Bf-109E-5JG27-B2--belly-landed-1940-01


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/Bf-109E1-5JG27-B13--Erwin-Daig-crash-landed-Storrington-1940-02.jpg

Bf-109E1-5JG27-B13--Erwin-Daig-crash-landed-Storrington-1940-02


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/Bf-109E1-5JG27-B13--Erwin-Daig-crash-landed-Storrington-1940-01.jpg

Bf-109E1-5JG27-B13--Erwin-Daig-crash-landed-Storrington-1940-01


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/Bf-109E-5JG27-B11--1940-01.jpg

Bf-109E-5JG27-B11--1940-01.jpg


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/Bf-109E1-5.jpg

Bf-109E1-5.jpg


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/1-Bf-109F4Trop-5JG27-Red-5--abandoned-North-Africa-Nov-1942-01.jpg

1-Bf-109F4Trop-5JG27-Red-5--abandoned-North-Africa-Nov-1942-01.jpg


Seems the illustrators arnt sure either?



http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/Black-9_JG27_600.jpg

Black-9_JG27_600.jpg


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/0-Bf-109F4Trop-5JG27-B5--Tmimi-1942-0A.jpg

Bf-109F4Trop-5JG27-B5--Tmimi-1942-0A.jpg

This last picture is really rare, most illustrations have a black number and red bar... In fact this is the only one I know of that has a black bar...

[raaaid]

maybe it was both and meant something?

some b&w photos seem black other seem lighter than black like red

[Kongo-Otto]

http://www.abload.de/thumb/001jpbez.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=001jpbez.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/002c1lj5.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=002c1lj5.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/0031ra2o.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=0031ra2o.jpg)

Translation to Picture 1:
(annotation by me: This was Current status from 14. Dec 1937
file reference: Fl.In.3 Nr. 730/37 II)
a, The Staffelaircraft (including Reserveairplanes) are marked with arabic Numbers from 1 to 12 namely

the 1. 4. and 7. Staffel in white without edging
the 2. 5. and 8. Staffel in Red with white edging
the 3. 6. and 9. Staffel in clayyellow with black edging
(Autors note: White = RLM 21, red = RLM 23, Clayyellow = RLM 04)


Translation to Picture 2and 3:
Changing in Airplane Markings. Current status 1943
The Regulation about Markings of airplanes B.L.B 1938 Page 4 Nr. 7 Segment II
(see Chapter 6.5.1.4) is to change as follows:
a, The Staffelaircraft (including Reserveairplanes) are marked with arabic Numbers from 1 to 16 namely

the respective first Staffel in every Group in white color
the respective second Staffel in every Group in Black color
the respective third Staffel in every Group in clayyellow color
the respective fourth Staffel in every Group in blue with white edging
(Autors note: White = RLM 21, red = RLM 23, Clayyellow = RLM 04 Blue = RLM 24)


That's at least whats in the books, in reality welll.....what a mess.

[5./JG27.Farber]

That's at least whats in the books, in reality welll.....what a mess.

Thanks, kinda puts some more pieces to the puzzle. I think your last statment nailed it best.

[ATAG_Colander]

The last pic is definitely red. You can clearly see the contrast against the black border.

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/black%20or%20red/1-Bf-109F4Trop-5JG27-Red-5--abandoned-North-Africa-Nov-1942-01.jpg

[Kongo-Otto]

Thanks, kinda puts some more pieces to the puzzle. I think your last statment nailed it best.

It's really a bloody mess e.g. when in 5/43 the IV.Jagdgeschwader 27 was formed their 11./JG 27 became the Staffelcolor Red, but regarding to my posted Picture 2 the color should have been black as the 11./JG 27 was the respective second Staffel of the IV. Gruppe.
And this goes on and on and on thru the whole Luftwaffe.
The only sure thing about Luftwaffe Colors and Markings is: Nothing was impossible.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Yea Ive seen it stated before, I think it was an Osprey book Jagdflieger schule or something, and it said 2nd Staffel in a Gruppe was red or black... So maybe they were told to paint it red or black and took the micky and literally painted it red or black...

As you say, nothings impossible. I heard it said "for every rule in the Luftwaffe there is an exception..."