the air forces know the secret for uber piloting the sports world doesnt [Archive]

winny

09-27-2012, 08:55 AM

i have several world record racing online and i feel like i cheated because i do something that i dont know nobody else does it

most people use in their joystick wheel 400º of lock, i use 40º

i texted extensively and in any racing game theres at least two seconds difference between both set ups i get

think about it wwi fighters sticks had a run like 50 cm modern fighter joystick run is like 5 cm

what i dont understand is why real racers dont use high sensitivity

Er... They do, an f1 car will reach full lock in less than one turn of the steering wheel, compared with 1 ish for road cars. Most racing cars have more sensitive steering wheels.

hegykc

09-27-2012, 11:25 AM

The magic word here is precision. It's been a while since I've raced on a pc. If I'm not mistaken the GT cars have 270 or 180 degree steering lock.
And if you're racing a simulation that's what you wanna use. Because you're simulating real life, to see how good you can get. Anything else is just childish to me, chasing numbers...

Don't know about WWI, but WWII planes had like 30 cm stick travel, the 109 25cm.
Modern fighter jets have the same. Except for the ones that use force sensing controls.

Formation flying would be next to impossible with 5cm of precision on a stick.

Sternjaeger II

09-27-2012, 04:33 PM

hegykc

09-27-2012, 07:18 PM

Oh sure you do, dogfighting, aerobatics.

But the thread title suggests it's better to have extra small stick travel, which is not true.

raaaid

09-27-2012, 07:46 PM

if you want high precision you go for lot of travel

if you want to go to the limit samll travel is best

you can countersteer easy with an artificially enhanced time reaction

normally they say motorbikes turn and brake more than you do when you think youre on the limit, this is a conservation natural feeling, with small travel you beat this though on this sense high sensitivity is addictive

hegykc

09-27-2012, 08:05 PM

You can't pick one or the other, you need both. On airplanes especially.
With a 5cm stick travel the aircraft would be uncontrollable in a dive due to the forces acting on control surfaces.

The 109 has exactly that problem. Small stick travel, above 400 mph the stick is impossible to move.

What you propose can only be beneficial virtually, in a game.

WTE_Galway

09-28-2012, 08:01 AM

well you hardly ever use full stick travel once airborne.

Maybe for a ludicrously extreme sideslip :D

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 11:17 AM

if you want high precision you go for lot of travel

if you want to go to the limit samll travel is best

Stick-travel is only one part of this. The reason why an Extra 300 has higher roll-rates than an F18 isn't due to stick-movement, it's due to bigger control-surfaces.

Besides, your example is completely silly on for example an F16, where the stick measures force, not travel.

Memo to self: why the HELL do I even bother answering a raaaid-thread....

hegykc

09-28-2012, 11:37 AM

Memo to self: why the HELL do I even bother answering a raaaid-thread....

Thanks for the reality check:P

raaaid

09-28-2012, 11:52 AM

well im doing it out of generosity

with this setup i got a word record in an steam game(raceroom) in 4 hours(for my 1st recordin race evolution i needed 600)

without this high sensitivity setup i wouldnt be able to do it

as i said for me theres 2 seconds i gain from racing with 40º or 400º

feel free to grab free steam race room and race one of my hotlaps ghosts

i was pondering to get all records in that game but that was insane even for me

now i rather racing online, i dont even need to know the circuit to keep up with the high sens setup

hegykc

09-28-2012, 12:48 PM

That's great for you. Still a cheat if you ask me.
Isn't the point of a racing simulation to see what it would be like, racing in real life.
And if you have a wheel that can be set up to a specific car, why not do it.
Because you care more about some number, than real racing. That's childish to me.

Also, I don't know this game. Try RrFactor, Live for speed or iRacing, which are true simulators, see if it works there.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 01:04 PM

it gives me a 2 seconds advantage in ALL games i tried including lfs , gtr and all simbin games

why is it a cheat if you can do it in real life

if i was a race driver 1st thing i would setup the direction like a quad, linear and 1:1 ratio with a low force feedback

why is this cheating if it can be done in real life

or not following the heard copying the previous pilots and do whats best for you its cheating

:) well in a way it is, not following the heard i mean

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 01:08 PM

why is it a cheat if you can do it in real life

If you increase the ratio between stick-travel and control-surface deflection, you'll most likely severely damage the aircraft since you go beyond the loadlimits, or you'll put yourself into a G-LOC situation with subsequent loss of control. Which, in an aircraft (and ESPECIALLY at events like Reno, usually means that you die.

There's usually a reason as to why the controls are set up as they are in aircraft.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 01:17 PM

hegykc

09-28-2012, 01:20 PM

And there's a reason why they're setup like they are in real car racing too.

Do you know what would happen if you would jerk your 40 degree wheel at 200 mph.
In some panic situation, you jerk the wheel slightly you are out.
+ the strain on the construction, on the tires etc...

There's safety regulation in real life.

Anyway I have never, ever heard of a racing vehicle with a 40 degree steering lock.
It is not possible in real life, either because of mechanical reasons, safety reasons or wear and tear reasons.
There for, if you want to brag about your racing skills, be a man and do it like the real men race.

hegykc

09-28-2012, 01:22 PM

ARE you kidding me :))))

Do you even know what stick you've posted? And how many aircraft use that technology :)

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 01:27 PM

but thats my whole point:

modern fighters use joysticks of short stick

old fighters used long sticks

do you realize the lenght of the stick is what determines run or sensitivity?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1580/vegastrip200580vw7.jpg

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/12/images/detail_spitfire_ix_32.jpg

You've posted an image of an F-16-stick. Which moves about 1/4th of an inch all in all. That movement is NOT, in ANY way, what defines the amount of controlsurface-deflection on the Viper, as it's flight-contro-system is set up so that it's how much FORCE you use that is used to measure the deflection-angle.

Comparing that to a Spitfire, which you have done here, is idiotic, even for you.

You can add the fact that most modern-day fighterjets use a Fly-by-wire system, i.e. there's no moving, mechanical linkage between the stick and the control-surfaces like you have on for example a Spitfire. It doesn't compare at all, in any way.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 01:57 PM

haha so moving one cm = 100 kg onn the elevator

myself on the stall limit paragliding measure by grams while normally by 20 kg so youre gullible if you belive that

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 03:00 PM

haha so moving one cm = 100 kg onn the elevator

myself on the stall limit paragliding measure by grams while normally by 20 kg so youre gullible if you belive that

You're not getting it: The stick in an F16 is not connected mechanically to the actuators that drive the control-surfaces as you would find for example in the F4 Phantom. The stick in an F16 only moves 1/4th of an inch in order to give the stick SOME deadzone, which was a wish from the first pilots that flew the bird since they found that a completely non-moving stick (which was what the very first production-birds actually had) was unnatural to them.

The stick in an F16 senses how much force you put on the stick, sends that input to the flight-control-computers, who then do the math to make the aircraft do what you want it to do, as long as you don't exceed the maximum G-load the aircraft can take at that speed.

So again: Posting an image of an F16-stick in this discussion is completely and utterly useless, since it's not mechanically linked directly to the control-surface actuators as you have in a Spitfire (Wire-and-pulley system) or an F4 Phantom (hydraulic system).

raaaid

09-28-2012, 03:15 PM

youre confusing the thing by throwing random facts

the fact:

modern fighters have short sticks

old fighters had long sticks

modern fighters have short run

old fighters had long run

modern fighters have high sensitivity

old fighters had low sensitivity

show me a picture of a new fighter with a long stick that is with low sensitivity

man i grant you in the future racers will go with insane high sensitivity in their wheels is a matter of a pioneer doing it and washing the floor with the rest

hegykc

09-28-2012, 03:49 PM

Hahahaha, not one, not one thing you just said is correct :)

F-16 doesn't have short stick travel. It has 0 stick travel.
But then pilots started complaining that they have trouble orienting and realising where the stick acctually is. Then the designers introduced 1/4 inch or 6mm stick travel. And that is "empty travel" not connected to the control surfaces in any way.
Maximun noseup and nosedown pitch commands are genrated by 25 and 16 pounds of input, respectively. Roll commands are generated by a maximum of 17 pounds in cruise gains and by 12 pounds in takeoff and landing gains.

But that is still only one aircraft, and it was problematic.

Wanna talk f-14, f-15, 1-104, f-111, f-117 and literally hundreds and hundreds of airplanes before and after that from all the countries around the world that have conventional sticks, with 20-30+ cm of travel. Just like the WWII fighters.

Even if your statement would be correct, older fighter can still out-turn any modern one.

Have you actually checked any of your statements before stating them??

Oh, and by the way, I'm an inventor with a engineering degree. A professional one, making a living of it. So I'm all for open mindedness and thinking out of the box.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 03:55 PM

hegykc

09-28-2012, 03:59 PM

Name a modern fighter with your "short stick".

And please, movies :) Are you really kidding me :)
You do know that they film the cockpit footage on the ground, and mostly on mock-up cockpits :)

raaaid

09-28-2012, 04:03 PM

the previous f16

and the f18 is pretty short if you ask me ;)

http://www.clarksmachine.com/img/f18stick1.gif

edit:

i wont go into complex stuff but just exposing the obvious:

do you know why soome one designed a 0.5 mm run stick for an extreme plane?

because countersteering a stall like that is faster

nope it was not fashion ;)

hegykc

09-28-2012, 04:14 PM

F-18, 2G per one inch of stick travel. That's 4.5 inches or 12cm for pitch up. And there is more stick travel, but you can't achieve it because of the forces being too strong to pull of, again, for safety reasons.
So, the F-18 has exactly the same stick travel as a WWII 109.

F-16 doesn't have any force feedback, and that's where it becomes apparent that you haven't actually spent more than 5min researching the subject.

Again, name another modern fighter with you "short stick"

raaaid

09-28-2012, 04:21 PM

why should i name another, one plane designer thought as me

so you dont agree that sensitivity is related with run

edit:

a force is a resistance to move, exactly what the f16 stick has, if you dont like the name force feed back thats all right we may call it the force onwards

hegykc

09-28-2012, 04:29 PM

why should i name another, one plane designer thought as me

You did say, modern fighters have short stick travel. Plural and by that meaning all of them have

Well, as it turns out, they don't. Sorry.

Moony

09-28-2012, 04:33 PM

raaaid

09-28-2012, 05:27 PM

modern fighters have a short stick run is a true statement since the f16 has a short stick run and its a modern fighter, i didnt say all

its like if i say women are pretty, it doesnt mean all

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 05:29 PM

ive seen many FIGHTERS in movies and all used short sticks

your confusing run with force feedback

f16 has a stick with extreme short run AND A STRONG FORCE FEED BACK

sensitivity is related with run not feed back

so the f16 and many other stick SHORT RUN give away my point of the high sensitivity advantage

the only sensible point ive seen so far except childish bias is that high sensitivity in racing is limited for safety reasons

No. ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you don't believe me, go look up the history of the F16, the TCTO's for the F16's, and the horrendous amount of information on the F16's flightcontrol-system.

The F16's stick moves 1/4th of an inch. That 1/4th of an inch is built into the system to give pilots a deadband so that they don't input unwanted commands, especially in pitch. ABSOLUTELY NO force feedback is in the stick of an F16. AT ALL. Period. That's one of the things that catch new pilots on the Viper off when they transition from the T38 Talon (which is based on the F5) to the Viper. So I'll say this again: The F16's flight-control system is based on FORCE of the input, not the TRAVEL of the input. That's one of the key differences between the stick in an F16 and for example an F18. Both are fly-by-wire designs, but the F18's stick move in a more traditional manner.

But hey! Don't believe me all you want. I don't know jack shit about the F16's, even though I served as an F16 groundcrew during my RNoAF servicetime (yes, this is irony, since you seemingly need to have things fed to you with very small spoons). I've seen, touched and handled every single part of the F16's airframe and systems through that, I've spent more time with my nose in the TCTO's for the aircraft, and I'd daresay I know a TAD more about the F16 than you do. So stop talking out of your butt, and try to understand that there are people here with far greater knowledge, even hands-on knowledge, with the aircraft.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 05:36 PM

youre trowing random facts again and trying to apply the autority criteria in your favour

what of this statements is false?

statement number 1:

the f16 stick has an extreamly short run

statement number 2:

a high or low sensitivity depends on the stick run

statement number 3:

the f16 has a short run which it implies it has high sensitivity

edit:

your making a sophism in your point:

the control is based on the force

oh yeah to move it farther you have to apply more force

then so its a 109 stick based on the force to move it farther you have to apply more force

a sophism

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 05:45 PM

youre trowing random facts again and trying to apply the autority criteria in your favour

Nothing of what I've said is random in any way, shape or form. If you doubt me, go look it up.

what of this statements is false?

statement number 1:

the f16 stick has an extreamly short run

Not false. What YOU fail to recognize, however, is that the 1/4th of an inch of travel on the stick is deadband. Nothing happens inside that 1/4th of an inch, AT ALL. Once you reach the limit of that 1/4th of an inch, where the stick doesn't move anymore, THEN the flight-control system starts translating the FORCE (basically the weight you put on the stick) you input into control-surface deflection, which again makes the aircraft roll/pitch.

statement number 2:

a high or low sensitivity depends on the stick run

Which is NOT true for the F16's stick.

statement number 3:

the f16 has a short run which it implies it has high sensitivity

Which again is NOT true, because the travel of the stick has absolutely nothing to do with the maneuvering of the aircraft what so ever. Again, when you reach the LIMIT of that travel, the WEIGHT (i.e. force) you put on the stick is what defines how large the effect on the controlsurfaces will be. High weight (i.e. pulling hard on the stick) equals a faster and higher response from the aircraft.

edit:

your making a sophism in your point:

the control is based on the force

oh yeah to move it farther you have to apply more force

then so its a 109 stick based on the force to move it farther you have to apply more force

a sophism

You're comparing a wire-and-pulley system to a computer-controlled system. You might as well compare a squirrel and a pig. They're both mammals, but that's where the comparison ends.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Either you're being a deliberate troll, or you're as intelligent as my right shoe.

hegykc

09-28-2012, 06:08 PM

The F-16 doesn't have stick travel connected with airplane maneuverability .

You can easily have a 30cm stick that exerts more sensitivity than a 5cm one.
It is not connected at all.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 06:16 PM

Not false. What YOU fail to recognize, however, is that the 1/4th of an inch of travel on the stick is deadband. Nothing happens inside that 1/4th of an inch, AT ALL.

i dont believe that

i googled f16 stick and dead zone- band and i call that bs, i know you never pilot with a big dead zone

oh man do you find curious people over the net

have you got any link of an f16 stick having a dead zone?

utter bs, lets see if my intuition is right

edit:

In regard to the amount of movement: I think the F-16 has the least
amount of movement of any control stick so far implemented on a
production aircraft. In fact, initially it was designed to have no
movement. On other aircraft it varies and it often depends on the
length of the control stick. For example, the Gripen has a very short
stick and the rotation point is just beneath the wrist. I can't
remember how many degrees it deflects, but I do know that it feels
very natural. Since it is short, the linear movement of the stick at
the hand will obviously be quite small.

from:

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.aviation.military/2010-02/msg00017.html

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 06:30 PM

i dont believe that

i googled f16 stick and dead zone- band and i call that bs, i know you never pilot with a dead zone

oh man do you find curious people over the net

have you got any link of an f16 stick having a dead zone?

utter bs, lets see if my intuition is right

You can read the following links if you don't believe me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon

http://f-16.net/articles_article13.html

You can also read this for a pilot-perspective on the comparison between the F18 and the F16. It touches upon the deadband, and MAY just be something that you MAY FINALLY understand what the hell you're talking about, although I doubt that.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/169261-f-16-vs-f-18-navy-test-pilots-perspective.html

If you need more proof, go download the F16 TCTO for the Flightcontrol-system. It's explained in far greater detail than I currently bother with. You're hell-bent on labeling anything that goes against your so-called knowledge as false anyway, so I don't think I'll bother with either you nor your posts again.

You're nothing but a troll, and a bad one at that, and should simply be banned from these forums.

Hood

09-28-2012, 06:40 PM

i dont believe that

i googled f16 stick and dead zone- band and i call that bs, i know you never pilot with a big dead zone

oh man do you find curious people over the net

have you got any link of an f16 stick having a dead zone?

utter bs, lets see if my intuition is right

edit:

In regard to the amount of movement: I think the F-16 has the least
amount of movement of any control stick so far implemented on a
production aircraft. In fact, initially it was designIed to have no
movement. On other aircraft it varies and it often depends on the
length of the control stick. For example, the Gripen has a very short
stick and the rotation point is just beneath the wrist. I can't
remember how many degrees it deflects, but I do know that it feels
very natural. Since it is short, the linear movement of the stick at
the hand will obviously be quite small.

from:

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.aviation.military/2010-02/msg00017.html

You really are an idiot, questioning something that is patently true and so well documented and evidenced. Your quote doesn't help as it has already been stated that the stick has a tiny movement. Originally it had no movement.

Now do a search referring to an F16 sidestick or side controller then post an apology to Fjordmonkey.

Hood

raaaid

09-28-2012, 06:43 PM

this link mentions not dead band:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon

this one neither:

http://f-16.net/articles_article13.html

this one is the only i found mentioning dead band and anyone will understand he is talking of effective run NOT A DEAD ZONE

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/169261-f-16-vs-f-18-navy-test-pilots-perspective.html

so its you who is the troll and is pretending to work with f16 as many have done in this forae

at least your smart enough not to impersonate an officer which is a criminal ofence

man i have some experience pilot you cant pilto with a dead band thats why i know youre a bser

how the hell do you take up fuel with a 6 mm DEAD ZONE

raaaid

09-28-2012, 06:48 PM

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 06:52 PM

here the real stuff:

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb.html

The Hotas Desktop System is an upgrade for the Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar. It replaces the Cougar's original gimbal system and pots with a completely different system that uses force sensors to measure the displacement of the joystick. The joystick barely moves replicating the displacement values of the real F-16 side stick controller. Similarly, the forces for maximum displacement are replicated although these can be reduced to suit personal preferences.

thanks for being rrude to me

in my book youre a pretender

In my book you're an utter idiot, but hey, that's just how it is.

Read this: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-16-design.htm

Especially the 7th paragraph, which goes like this:

The cockpit and its bubble canopy give the pilot unobstructed forward and upward vision, and greatly improved vision over the side and to the rear. The seat-back angle was expanded from the usual 13 degrees to 30 degrees, increasing pilot comfort and gravity force tolerance. The pilot has excellent flight control of the F-16 through its "fly-by-wire" system. Electrical wires relay commands, replacing the usual cables and linkage controls. For easy and accurate control of the aircraft during high G-force combat maneuvers, a side stick controller is used instead of the conventional center-mounted stick. Hand pressure on the side stick controller sends electrical signals to actuators of flight control surfaces such as ailerons and rudder. The arrangement of the pilot's control stick is a radical departure from standards that trace their origin to the early days of World War I. Traditionally, the fighter pilot's control stick used for actuation of the ailerons and elevators has consisted of a lever mounted on the floor of the cockpit between the pilot's legs. (There have, of course been many variations in the detail design of the control stick.) On the F-16, the traditional control stick has been replaced by a short "side-arm controller" mounted on the right-hand console of the cockpit. The side-arm controller is a small-displacement pressure-sensitive handle that, together with the fly-by-wire system, gives the pilot the ability to exercise very precise control of the aircraft. To help prevent unwanted commands to the control handle the pilot rests his right arm in a carefully designed support.

And if this just isn't enough to convince you, nothing will. Except maybe talking with a real F16-pilot, which I'd tell you to do if I thought you had any opportunity of doing so.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 07:00 PM

Fjordmonkey

09-28-2012, 07:07 PM

well i will be convinced when i see an explanation of an stick havinng 6mm of DEAD ZONE, theres none there

man im a pilot, ive piloted many things, thats utter bs

plz read again my f16 emulating joystick link in the top

Go read the TCTO. I don't care if you're a pilot, you've never flown an F16, and you never will.

Your link towards an emulation of the F16-stick is in no way proof that the stick in the real F16 is the exact same, which I know for a fact from not only working on the F16 but also talking quite a bit with RNoAF pilots during my time in the RNoAF.

But yep, I'm done with both you and this thread, and I still say you should be banned for being a moron.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 07:13 PM

the net proves your an uneducated pretender troll:

https://www.google.es/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22f16+sidestick%22+%22dead+zone%22&oq=%22f16+sidestick%22+%22dead+zone%22&gs_l=serp.3...2611.5553.0.6645.4.4.0.0.0.0.94.361. 4.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.CjW7dF08voI&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=d44242570f5edb31&biw=1280&bih=841

edit:

oh and to the other troll who asked me for other modern planes with high sensitivity

well as the f16 "maintenance guy" googles is your friend

https://www.google.es/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=side+stick+plane&oq=side+stick+plane&gs_l=hp.3..0i30.13568.16694.0.17428.16.15.0.1.1.0. 141.1465.12j3.15.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.FWUOtHgxNck&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=d44242570f5edb31&biw=1280&bih=841

Hood

09-28-2012, 07:34 PM

well i will be convinced when i see an explanation of an stick havinng 6mm of DEAD ZONE, theres none there

man im a pilot, ive piloted many things, thats utter bs

plz read again my f16 emulating joystick link in the top

Lol that's pure bs there. I love that you're using a simulator stick as evidence about how the real thing works.

Must be hell being an A10 pilot with their joysticks and throttles ocasionally sliding across the desk in their cockpit. Well that's what my Warthog does so it must be true.

Idiot.

Hood

winny

09-28-2012, 07:56 PM

Hood

09-28-2012, 08:06 PM

Raaaaaaid..

Look at this video, it's a real F-16 - you can clearly see the red button on top of the flight stick (most of the time). It hardly moves, even when the pilot is throwing it around all over the show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1X8SE-FDjk

Wasting your time as he will not accept he's wrong. Next it'll be some youtube clip of Katy Perry and some BS derivative sketch proving something totally unconnected.

Hood

raaaid

09-28-2012, 08:07 PM

Raaaaaaid..

Look at this video, it's a real F-16 - you can clearly see the red button on top of the flight stick (most of the time). It hardly moves, even when the pilot is throwing it around all over the show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1X8SE-FDjk

yes thats my whole point a high sensitivity is an advantage to go to the limit(because it takes shorter to move the hand a litle than alot)

thats it why he hardly moves the stick cause it has high sensitivity

well winny i take your advice for good and dont give a dumb about those haters

dont you agree that f16 stick has a high sensitivity, quite more than wwii sticks?

in fact ive tried myself a simillar setup to the f16 sidestick racing

i increased hugely the FORCE dumping of my g25 and have a lock of 5º

thats like moving the hands 0.5 cm from lock to lock

also i agree that a huge force resistance is another way to decrease sensitivity, its not only the run actually

edit:

and winny dont you think i am being reasonable calling bs a 0.6 cm dead zone in a control stick?

come on its common sense imagine driving like that

edit:

i have just tested the f16 sidestick concept with my g25 to race:

i decreased the lock to 4º thats like .7mm run on th hands

and i incresed centering force to the maximum(which is gradual the more you move the wheel the more it increases)

also added it a very slightly force feed back

i was going at times faster than the average guys in a circuit i had never driven

i feel like cheating now i have a modded g25 to act as an f16 sidestick :)

edit:

well after a clasification multiplayer in a circuit I HAD NEVER RACED BEFORED i ranked 14th of 24 with the f16 style wheel setup :)

this thread has been a great idea now i know even more about controls setups

winny

09-28-2012, 09:58 PM

To be honest I'm still not sure what your point is.

Staying with racing cars, an F1 cars steering ratio is pretty much 1:1
So you move the steering wheel 1 degree and the wheels turn 1 degree. A road car will have something like 15:1 or 20:1, it's just practicality. You don't need to reverse park an F1 car..

So the sports world does understand sensitivity.

I don't see the connection between a steering wheel and a flight stick on an F-16, they're totally different things. Surley the aircraft equivilent of steering is the rudder not the stick? The sticks there to let the pilot tell the plane to either roll, roll faster or don't roll, that's why the 16's stick isn't bothered about sensitivity of stick movement and is more interested in the pressure applied.

raaaid

09-28-2012, 10:04 PM

the thing i found out is that a short run on the controls allows you to countersteer faster both for a stall in a plane or a spin in a car

it also makes you more agresive

no point just sharing the knowledge :)

edit:

what i rediscovered today its that a big force resistance reduces sensitivity

so you have the advnatage of a short run being able to counters teer in an stall with enhanced reaction time with a normal sensitivity due to the copensantion by the force

arent internet bulletins great? :)

Hood

09-28-2012, 11:16 PM

yes thats my whole point a high sensitivity is an advantage to go to the limit(because it takes shorter to move the hand a litle than alot)

thats it why he hardly moves the stick cause it has high sensitivity

dont you agree that f16 stick has a high sensitivity, quite more than wwii sticks?

The stick has no sensitivity other than the sensitivity to the force being applied by the pilot. He hardly moves it because he cannot, apart from a tiny amount of "deadzone" built in to give tactile feedback.

Will you understand this? Maybe, but I doubt it. And why do you think it is more sensitive than WW2 sticks? Different aircraft, control services and the F16 is inherently unstable so you cannot compare them.

Maybe the aliens got inside your head when you were asleep.

Hood

raaaid

09-28-2012, 11:43 PM

Hood

09-29-2012, 12:12 AM

well what i said in my original thread is that i see a short run as an advantage for competing though at 1st look might not look so

the f16 and all planes with side short stick prove it not to mention my personal expereince tweaking my g25 wheel

Then you went off on a flight of fancy spouting rubbish again. You still don't get that the F16 side stick range of movement does not have any effect on control surface movement.

Hood

raaaid

09-29-2012, 12:31 AM

i get it perfectly i just dont belive it

in fact im simulating an f16 stick in my wheel just now:

total precision and ultrafast movements, the best from both worlds by setting an ultra short run with a very strong force resistance(the more you move it the bigger the force) with hardly no feedback

this f16 maintenance guy of F16 has reminded me the wackos that abound in th net

edit:

man if you believe that any plane stick has 0.6 cm dead zone throw this game to the garbage you have no clue, bs

editÇ:

i have an idea for the gullible:

why dont you set your joystick a huge dead zone and try to fly like that, then tell me, specially you fiord monkey

do you even know what a dead zone is?

stinks like bs then its bs

this looks so bad it makes me look like a beacon of sanity, maybe i should search other shores

edit:

winny i hope you dont take it bad but an f1 wheel doesnt have a 1:1 ratio of lock, for what i know just bikes and quads have this

think you can turn the steering wheel 180º at least but the front wheels never turn 180º

Hood

09-29-2012, 01:18 AM

i get it perfectly i just dont belive it

this looks so bad it makes me look like a beacon of sanity, maybe i should search other shores

Nope you don't get it or you'd have apologised by now. Let me see if I can make it even more simple for you.

1. The force required to move the stick in any direction to its limit is registered as a control surface input.

2. The physical movement of the stick is not registered as a control surface input. The whole 1/4" of movement is therefore "dead".

I think I'm done with this BS thread and I'll just wait for the next one. I'm afraid you're not a beacon of sanity, more like a low-watt bulb.

Hood

raaaid

09-29-2012, 01:57 AM

yeah fly with a 6 mm dead zone in the game and tell me how good do you do

after all you know, youre just trolling

i think its me whose done with trolls if you dont understand you CAN NOT fly a plane with a 6mm dead zone is not my problem

hey but if you feel better an f16 maintenance mechanic says so so must be true, but be aware when you meet a nigerian prince offering you a deal

edit:

oh and another lie:

you can fly perfectly in formation with 0.5 cm run in the joystick

im driving now with absolut precision and very good times with 0.5 cm run in my wheel and the smoothness comes from the huge froce RESISTANCE

raaaid

09-29-2012, 02:28 AM

Again, name another modern fighter with you "short stick"

this one that you as an expert (copy pasting) can tell the plane

http://www.ottenbourg.com/blog/uploaded_images/a380cockpit.jpg

if someone still doubts how an f 16 side stick works:

to move it 1 mm you apply 1 kg

to move it 2 mm you apply 2 kg

to move it 3 mm, maximum range you apply 3 kg

just as i set up my wheel now

had anybody heard before of those force controls joystick before? sounds pretty interesting and just what i had found out best

Outlaw

09-29-2012, 04:21 AM

man im a pilot, ive piloted many things, thats utter bs

Please give us the details on your flight experience in real aircraft. We are all dying to hear what you have to say!!

--Outlaw.

Outlaw

09-29-2012, 04:42 AM

this one that you as an expert (copy pasting) can tell the plane

http://www.ottenbourg.com/blog/uploaded_images/a380cockpit.jpg

if someone still doubts how an f 16 side stick works:

to move it 1 mm you apply 1 kg

to move it 2 mm you apply 2 kg

to move it 3 mm, maximum range you apply 3 kg

had anybody heard before of those force controls joystick before? sounds pretty interesting and just what i had found out best

As always, total and complete crap!

This is just like when you claimed that the gunship targeting systems tracked the gunners eye and not his helmet.

EVERYONE has heard of force sticks. They have been around for 20+ years!!!!! You could not be more ignorant if you tried. And I mean that LITERALLY. The fact that the F-16 was the first aircraft to use a force stick and that it's original zero travel was modified to a very small dead zone is so well known that the level of stupidity required to question it and/or fail to understand it is just staggering. And by staggering I mean that no human technology will ever be able to measure such a level.

All it takes to make a force stick is a wheatstone bridge and 2 strain gauges. Leo Bodnar even has wheatstone bridge circuits you can use to build your own force stick. I built one for IL-2 10 years ago but my home made circuitry had too much noise in it. Bodnar's is very nice. Coincidentally I sourced tiny strain gauges just a couple of weeks ago b/c I've been thinking of giving it another shot with Bodnar's circuits.

Strain gauges are a dime a dozen from www.omega.com and Bodnar's boards are known throughout the sim world.

The fact that you haven't come across one of those 2 sites just proves that you have no interest in learning anything nor of giving the rest of the world the benefit of your, "knowledge".

It simply proves that, AS YOU HAVE POSTED BEFORE, the reason you post on this forum is so that you can reread your asinine ranting later.

--Outlaw.

Outlaw

09-29-2012, 04:49 AM

yeah fly with a 6 mm dead zone in the game and tell me how good do you do

after all you know, youre just trolling

i think its me whose done with trolls if you dont understand you CAN NOT fly a plane with a 6mm dead zone is not my problem

hey but if you feel better an f16 maintenance mechanic says so so must be true, but be aware when you meet a nigerian prince offering you a deal

More CRAP!!!!

I played the game with nearly half an inch of dead zone for years because my stick was crap. Your statement is just pathetic!!!!!

if you can't fly a plane with 6mm of dead zone then how was I able to drive a 1972 Ford Econoline with about 35 degrees of dead zone in the steering wheel?

Have you ever even driven a real car?

--Outlaw.

PS
Man I miss that van!!!

raaaid

09-29-2012, 06:43 AM

yes i had a crappy joystick and i had to set it a huge dead zone

and i think we both can agree it sucks so i doubt it they would make that on purpose

zander

09-29-2012, 07:16 AM

You'll love this one:

www.saitek.de/prod/x65f.html

raaaid

09-29-2012, 04:52 PM

yes its the same than this

actually this is how an f16 joystick works:

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb.html

http://www.realsimulator.com/assets/images/displacement-vs-force-300.jpg

i dont know why i have to be attacked for not being so stupid to belive any stick is built with a huge dead zone in purpose

hegykc

09-29-2012, 05:03 PM

The equivalent of what you're proposing, on an F-16 would be a stick with 10 times less force loading. So 2.5 pounds for full pitch up.

I'd like to see you fly that thing.

raaaid

09-29-2012, 05:14 PM

During the last development phases we found that there was a big difference between the required pressure to fly with comfort and the high pressure that is required if you want to simulate the real thing.

Hood

09-29-2012, 06:04 PM

i dont know why i have to be attacked for not being so stupid to belive any stick is built with a huge dead zone in purpose

You're not. You're being attacked because you spout BS and you're wrong but won't admit it on this and many other topics. Huge dead zone? 6mm movement total where none of the stick movement matters? You still haven't got it.

By the way, simulators and gaming joysticks aren't the real thing and won't wok in the same way. There is no way you will be taken seriously relying on simulator stuff versus the real thing. Lol.

Hood

raaaid

09-29-2012, 06:11 PM

The joystick barely moves replicating the displacement values of the real F-16 side stick controller. Similarly, the forces for maximum displacement are replicated although these can be reduced to suit personal preferences.

grow up a pair now 99% of people know im right and fjord ape is a pretender nerd troll and you his buddy

oh and my intuition was right whats scarry

you see by calling me moron idiot pathetic just for being generous and telling a pilot skill which is true you stress me and make say deliring nonsenses

Hood

09-29-2012, 06:40 PM

The joystick barely moves replicating the displacement values of the real F-16 side stick controller. Similarly, the forces for maximum displacement are replicated although these can be reduced to suit personal preferences.

grow up a pair now 99% of people know im right and fjord ape is a pretender nerd troll and you his buddy

oh and my intuition was right whats scarry

good luck with the future where people is half robot and eat treated feces i wont be there cause ill jump to blachole and travel to the past as a caveman eating good mamuth meat together with my love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMqsWc8muj8

The troll couldn't stay hidden could it? You'll fit in as a caveman.

winny

09-29-2012, 09:14 PM

outs marted by the village fool

Genius.

raaaid

09-29-2012, 09:18 PM

yeah well i deleted somethings for being nonsesnsical i accept the fact i know nothing for sure no point speculating

as a kid i learnt my intuition was usually right, but after seeing many things on tv very bizarre some of which later verified some others couldnt i dont even trust my senses now or well i trust them in a 50% much less my intuition so im thrilled at it working so well and caugthing that lie

Flanker35M

09-30-2012, 07:57 AM

zander

09-30-2012, 10:54 AM

S!

I was in the belief that originally the F-16 stick did not move at all, but the small movement was put there per pilot request so they had some feedback of moving a controller they were used to in older generation planes. For example Boeing still has the "classic" yoke in their airliners even the system is FBW, to give the pilot feedback of controlling a plane. I could be wrong though.

Wiki says:

Side-sticks and centre-sticks are better for making rapid control inputs and dealing with high g-forces, hence their use in military, sport, and aerobatic aircraft. However, yokes are less sensitive (i.e., more precise) thanks to a larger range of motion and provide more visual feedback to the pilot.[2]

Yokes take up more room than sidesticks in the cockpit, and may even obscure some instruments; by comparison, side-sticks have minimal cockpit intrusion, allowing for the inclusion of retractable tray-tables[3][4] and making it easier to enter/leave small cockpits.

A yoke, unlike a side-stick, may be used comfortably with either hand. This can be useful if one needs to write or manipulate other controls in the cockpit. This advantage is shared with the centre-stick.[2]

raaaid

09-30-2012, 06:09 PM

Please give us the details on your flight experience in real aircraft. We are all dying to hear what you have to say!!

--Outlaw.

oh i just spotted whn rereading my asinine pathetic bs

i piloted a paraglide

youre very good spoting bs do you believe fjord moneky to be an f16 maintenance guy after his affirmation of a 6mm deadband in the stick?

why do you get on me and not him?

raaaid

09-30-2012, 06:11 PM

As always, total and complete crap!

This is just like when you claimed that the gunship targeting systems tracked the gunners eye and not his helmet.

EVERYONE has heard of force sticks. They have been around for 20+ years!!!!! You could not be more ignorant if you tried. And I mean that LITERALLY. The fact that the F-16 was the first aircraft to use a force stick and that it's original zero travel was modified to a very small dead zone is so well known that the level of stupidity required to question it and/or fail to understand it is just staggering. And by staggering I mean that no human technology will ever be able to measure such a level.

All it takes to make a force stick is a wheatstone bridge and 2 strain gauges. Leo Bodnar even has wheatstone bridge circuits you can use to build your own force stick. I built one for IL-2 10 years ago but my home made circuitry had too much noise in it. Bodnar's is very nice. Coincidentally I sourced tiny strain gauges just a couple of weeks ago b/c I've been thinking of giving it another shot with Bodnar's circuits.

Strain gauges are a dime a dozen from www.omega.com and Bodnar's boards are known throughout the sim world.

The fact that you haven't come across one of those 2 sites just proves that you have no interest in learning anything nor of giving the rest of the world the benefit of your, "knowledge".

It simply proves that, AS YOU HAVE POSTED BEFORE, the reason you post on this forum is so that you can reread your asinine ranting later.

--Outlaw.

gradual force resistance allows for extreme short runs, even one micrometer run,what the amateur will call zero run

and my whole point is that short run is better to pilot

if i didnt discover anything, i rediscovered, and i am probably the only person in the wrold racing with 0.5 cm run in his wheel with big succes

Outlaw

09-30-2012, 08:07 PM

oh i just spotted whn rereading my asinine pathetic bs

i piloted a paraglide

Quite a difference from your original LIE...

man im a pilot, ive piloted many things, thats utter bs

What did you expect to gain with your lie?

youre very good spoting bs do you believe fjord moneky to be an f16 maintenance guy after his affirmation of a 6mm deadband in the stick?

why do you get on me and not him?

Because he is right and you are wrong. I even affirmed his statements as fact in one of my own posts. A post YOU REPLIED to! How can you even be asking such a ridiculous question?

--Outlaw.

raaaid

09-30-2012, 08:52 PM

oh so you say the f16 has a 6mm dead zone?

what a ridiculous statement back it up as ive backed it up it doesnt

http://www.realsimulator.com/assets/images/displacement-vs-force-300.jpg

youre so biased towards me that even back up nonsense even you dont belive

maybe its being time to ignore you youre just a ahter who will say any nonsense to fullfill his hating agenda

raaaid

09-30-2012, 09:17 PM

Quite a difference from your original LIE...

What did you expect to gain with your lie?

Because he is right and you are wrong. I even affirmed his statements as fact in one of my own posts. A post YOU REPLIED to! How can you even be asking such a ridiculous question?

--Outlaw.

what is my lie i piloted several paraglide his lie its he an f16 maintenance guy, i bet in his country there are like 5 of those

so after all this discussion you still believe the deazone bs

or should i say you LIE and say you beliv it when knowing its perfectly nonsensical because youre so full of hate towards me a guy who has nothing to hide and can go around the world telling what he thinks, i bet thats what makes you sick

Flanker35M

09-30-2012, 10:12 PM

S!

Actually Norway has more F16's than 5 ;) Been there seen them. Thanks for the hospitality BTW, was great to visit Trondheim :D

raaaid

09-30-2012, 10:24 PM

yeas but for heavens sake how gullible you have to be to believe than an f16 stick has a six mm dead zone and havent you fly sims and know pretty well the dead zone issue, its ridicuolus

Hood

09-30-2012, 10:42 PM

yeas but for heavens sake how gullible you have to be to believe than an f16 stick has a six mm dead zone and havent you fly sims and know pretty well the dead zone issue, its ridicuolus

I'll try one last time.

The movement of the stick does not affect the control surfaces. The pressure on the stick causes the computer to determine the input to the control surfaces.

Now, you may say that to move the stick requires pressure so in fact the stick has no dead zone because any pressure that moves the stick also causes a control surface input. True it does, but the movement is based on the pressure and not the movement of the stick.

SIDE STICK VERSUS CONVENTIONAL CENTER STICK
Both the Hornet and Viper use fly-by-wire flight-control systems, which means aircraft response is governed by a set of programmed flight-control laws that "live" in the flight-control computers, which I affectionately refer to as "George." In other words, the pilot isn't flying the airplane, George is. The pilot tells George he wants the airplane to do something, and George then zips through the math to figure out which flight-control surfaces should be moved to fulfill the pilot's request. The big difference (and it is a big one) is that the Hornet uses a conventional center stick, and the computer senses stick position to interpret what the pilot wants. The Viper uses a side stick, and the computer senses stick force from pilot input.
Flying a side-stick control takes a while to get used to, but once you do, it's a joy. The conformal stick's shape feels very natural (it fits in the hand like a melted candy bar), and it allows easy access to nine of the 16 HOTAS controls. Two fully adjustable forearm rests on the right cockpit bulkhead stabilize and isolate the pilot's arm and wrist, so when rattling around the cockpit during turbulence or going after the bad guy, the pilot's arm won't accidentally move and initiate unwanted control inputs. In its original design, the Viper's control stick didn't move at all; it just measured pressure from the pilot's hand. However, after initial F-16 flight tests, a ¼ inch of stick movement was incorporated to give a small dead band and a nominal breakout force to give better "feel" of a neutral stick because otherwise it was entirely too sensitive. The control harmony is quite good (the pressures required for pitch and roll mix well), but without the capability to physically position the stick, it's easy to contaminate roll inputs with unwanted pitch inputs, and vice versa.

My first Viper instructor predicted that I would over-rotate on takeoff and drop the right wing; he was right. The over-rotation occurs because a pilot is used to "moving the stick and then something happens" at rotation speed. When I reached 145 knots and pulled back, of course the stick didn't move but a scant ¼ inch, so I pulled more. The inexperienced have no way of knowing how hard to pull, so I pulled probably twice as hard as was necessary.

"A Navy Test Pilot's Perspective" by Tougas, John Toonces "Flight Journal" Jun 03 Issue

raaaid

09-30-2012, 11:00 PM

Hood

09-30-2012, 11:03 PM

how do you explain that gogling side stick for an f16 and dead zone it only links here

https://www.google.es/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22f16+sidestick%22+%22dead+zone%22&oq=%22f16+sidestick%22+%22dead+zone%22&gs_l=serp.3...2611.5553.0.6645.4.4.0.0.0.0.94.361. 4.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.CjW7dF08voI&pbx=1&fp=1&biw=1280&bih=841&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&cad=b

Because that's how Google's search engine works. Just because you can't find something at the first go doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that your intuition was right - it was wrong. Go and read some threads here - a great site that I used to visit a lot when playing Falcon 4:

http://www.f-16.net/

Hood

raaaid

09-30-2012, 11:10 PM

the thing is that that f16 test pilot account using the word dead band for run confused the comunity

till now many people in the comunity believes the f16 stick is 6mm lose:rolleyes:

the f16 stick works as that pressure joystick i linked to

it says it REPLICATES an f16 sidestick

do you know what replicate means

for example do you know what a spit replica difference is with a real spit?

just the plate number ;)

Outlaw

10-01-2012, 01:54 AM

the thing is that that f16 test pilot account using the word dead band for run confused the comunity

till now many people in the comunity believes the f16 stick is 6mm lose:rolleyes:

There is DEFINITELY a dead zone in the stick. Otherwise BREATHING on the stick would cause the control surfaces to move. And I mean that LITERALLY. A strain gauge at one end of a 24" long piece of 1/16" tk steel flat bar WILL measure the deflection CAUSED BY THE CHANGE IN TEMPERATURE DUE TO BREATHING ON THE OTHER END FOR LESS THAN A SECOND. I know b/c I've done it before. Now, as any idiot knows the F-16 stick will have 2 strain gauges to dampen temperature effects and the stick is insulated from most airflow but A DEAD ZONE IS REQUIRED on a force stick due to the extreme sensitivity of the devices.

Whether or not that dead zone is 3mm (fore/aft or port/starboard) of motion (or compensated for in the software) is irrelevant.

The point is that, in the F16, the 3mm of movement in a single direction DOES NOT MOVE THE CONTROL SURFACES TO 100% DEFLECTION. Nor is it the limit of measuring the force. So, after the 3mm has been reached, you are NOT EVEN CLOSE TO 100% INPUT. Now it may be that some amount of control input registers before the stick has stopped moving, but it is nowhere near the limit.

Additionally, as others have pointed out, the F-16 stick IS NOT EVEN CONNECTED TO THE CONTROL SURFACES. It's connected to the flight control computer only and the computer decides if the control surfaces should move or not (and how fast).

Furthermore, the gain (sensitivity) of the control inputs can be adjusted in flight. For example, when performing in-flight refueling the gain is set very low to smooth out the flying.

--Outlaw.

Outlaw

10-01-2012, 02:00 AM

yes its the same than this

actually this is how an f16 joystick works:

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb.html

From the website link YOU POSTED...

During the last development phases we found that there was a big difference between the required pressure to fly with comfort and the high pressure that is required if you want to simulate the real thing.

It clearly states the BIG difference between the game stick AND THE REAL THING.

Here it is again...

and the high pressure that is required if you want to simulate the real thing

100% proof that your graph is NOT an F-16 stick. It is the COUGAR MOD.

--Outlaw.

raaaid

10-01-2012, 02:15 AM

well i understand you do this for fun, thats why i do it but your insults show where you get fun from

are you really an engineer or a lawyer?

one thing is a micrometric dead zone and a different what wjord monkey said whom you believe the WHOLE RUN AS DEATH ZONE

now you dont even understand english like when you say katy pery said thank you

The joystick barely moves replicating the displacement values of the real F-16 side stick controller. Similarly, the forces for maximum displacement are replicated although these can be reduced to suit personal preferences.

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb.html

Outlaw

10-01-2012, 02:56 AM

The joystick barely moves replicating the displacement values of the real F-16 side stick controller. Similarly, the forces for maximum displacement are replicated although these can be reduced to suit personal preferences.

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb.html

4000 grams = 8.8 lbs.

The highest setting on the Cougar Mod is the, "17 to 25 pound". IF you make the assumption that this truly replicates an F-16 stick, your graph maxed at 4000 grams DOES NOT SHOW AN F-16 STICK.

There is no arguing that. So, your graph IS JUNK in the context of an F-16 stick.

Of course, none of that is relevant BECAUSE AS I SAID BEFORE, THE END OF TRAVEL DOES NOT MEAN THE END OF INPUT.

Of course, you don't understand that so it does not make any difference. Just for the record, I'm pretty sure that at least some of the bacteria in my lower intestines understand it by now.

Also, just for the record, I own a REPLICA of a 1965 Shelby Daytona. If I ever finish it mine will outperform the original by a significant margin. REPLICA (and replicate), DOES NOT MEAN EQUAL.

--Outlaw.

raaaid

10-01-2012, 03:45 AM

so do you agree with fjord monkey statement?:

the whole 6 mm run of an f16 sidestick is dead zone

zander

10-01-2012, 09:39 AM

so do you agree with fjord monkey statement?:

the whole 6 mm run of an f16 sidestick is dead zone

Actually it would have to be - unless they changed the whole stick after the complains - and added potis/hal sensors to the original force sensors. Doesn't sound too likely either.

Guess we need a field service manual.

raaaid

10-01-2012, 11:59 AM

as an old VIRTUAL pilot i KNOW the huge dead zone(the whole run) issue its bs, so should you

it means the stick is 6 mm LOSE

edit:

if you have the money similar to the other joystick

http://www.aerotronicsllc.com/docs/SSCv2.pdf

is my rep so bad that even when im obviously right people rather apply the authority criteria even when the authority probably is a lier?

edit:

this portraits the second advantage i talked to at the begining that with a short run you go closer to the limit, youre more agresive:

The F-16 was the first aircraft to use the "fly by wire" system, which does not translate the pilot's control- movements by cables and pulleys, but by electronic impulses. Between the flight stick and the control areas is the FLCS (flight control system) which translates the applied pressure to the stick and sends the corresponding electric impulses to electric motors, that move the control areas. The FLCS also controls the amount of movement to be sent to the controls, in order to avoid to hard actions or wrong movements. Of the pilot, which might get the airplane into a critical position. Using the manual pitch override panel of these corrections of the FLCS can be overrided by the pilot.

The F-16 was also the first aircraft that had the flightstick at the right side instead between the pilot's legs. This allows easier controlling during high Gs and also keeps more free space to host important displays in front of the pilot.

The first F-16 models had the SSC (side stick controller) with no free movement at all, which made the pilot feel like trying to move a telegraph pole. Later some free movement was given to the SSC to avoid this feeling. Anyhow, if you think that now it is like moving a joystick with reduced movement, you are wrong! I had the chance to sit in an Air Forces F-16 simulator and thought that the stick was just cemented in. It really takes some force to move the stick. A F-16 pilot told me that the whole movement of the stick is just about 2 to 3 mm in each direction.

A big problem is that due to the poor feed-back of the SSC, the pilot can easily oversteer the plane, taking himself and (if there) the instructor to the maximum Gs. I made this experience myself. I just had my first flight in an aerobatic SP-91L and my instructor told me to fly a loop. In other airplanes I felt the force feed-back growing slowly when starting a loop, but this time I did not feel anything at all. Then things happened very fast. My instructor started to puff, I started to puff also and the G-meter showed 8G! So far facts of the real flying ;-)).

Together with the TQS (=Throttle quadrant system) the HOTAS system (Hands on Throttle and Stick) is conformed. This system allows the pilot to handle his plane during critical fight conditions, without taking the hands away from throttle and flight stick.

http://www.xflight.de/pe_org_par_ssc.htm

zander

10-01-2012, 12:59 PM

that proves what, exactly?

raaaid

10-01-2012, 01:48 PM

that this joystick is able to replicate accurately an f16 sidestick

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb.html

and this graph proves it HAS NO DEAD ZONE which proves fjord monkey is imposturing an f16 mechanic

http://www.realsimulator.com/assets/images/displacement-vs-force-300.jpg

im a nautic engineer and i know a control imput LOSE 6mm is utter bs and any engineer who did that in the rudder would be inmediatly fired

you want to see my qualifications?

edit:

he also says the stick is cemented which is the opposite to LOSE 6 MM

by now you know im right youre just pretending, acting

edit:

from my other link:

The roll axis sensitivity is 17 lbs. left and right (in the real f16 stick)

pay attention to the graph for a 3mm displacement there would be 9 kg force or around 17 pounds just as the real thing so that graph belongs to the aleirons axe of the f16 stick

Hood

10-01-2012, 03:56 PM

and this graph proves it HAS NO DEAD ZONE which proves fjord monkey is imposturing an f16 mechanic

im a nautic engineer and i know a control imput LOSE 6mm is utter bs and any engineer who did that in the rudder would be inmediatly fired

you want to see my qualifications?

edit:

he also says the stick is cemented which is the opposite to LOSE 6 MM

by now you know im right youre just pretending, acting

The graph proves nothing.

You're not a nautical engineer, you're wrong and have no way of backing up such a claim, and no I don't want to know your qualifications as they're irrelevant.

He says it feels cemented, not that it is. Later he confirms movement of 2mm or 3mm in each direction. Who said it is loose?

You're wrong. You've been wrong from the start and seem incapable of accepting it.

Hood

raaaid

10-01-2012, 04:36 PM

the graph proves theres no death zone

this is what a death band graphic looks like:

http://www.maximintegrated.com/images/appnotes/1130/DI152Fig06.gif

you know if it has a 6mm run death zone and then starts reading presure this implies its lose and the pilot said its cemented

why dont you start insulting me thats your only argument ive given plenty of proof youve given none

Sternjaeger II

10-01-2012, 05:12 PM

im a nautic engineer

no you're not.

raaaid

10-01-2012, 05:41 PM

no you're not.

well not exactly im being two subjects out of 40 from being one

so im practically an engineer

not only that i have university education in most subject since i have as well a diploma in english filology besides i know basic programing and im getting farther into art, not to mention my world records and mad virtual racing skills

a true renaisince gentel man

Hood

10-01-2012, 09:14 PM

Having a qualification doesn't mean anything. There are so many graduates with law degrees that know nothing about law. When you actually work as an engineer then you can claim to be one. Until you do that you're just someone who may or may not get a nautical engineering qualification. That you've taken 10+ years or so far sadly probably makes you unemployable.

If I were an engineer I'd be insulted by your claim. If you're going to accuse others of BS make sure you don't say it yourself... And regarding the F16 joystick why don't you ask about it on the www.F-16.net forums then if you're right you can link to the answers and we can all agree you are right. If they confirm you are wrong then you can apologise to Fjordmonkey.

Hood

zander

10-02-2012, 03:18 AM

you want to see my qualifications?

Now you mention it - actually yes.

bongodriver

10-02-2012, 06:05 AM

Yeah and certificates hand drawn in crayon don't count.

raaaid

10-02-2012, 12:25 PM

Now you mention it - actually yes.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st8.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st7.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st6.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st5.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st4.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st3.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st2.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st1.jpg

Outlaw

10-02-2012, 01:23 PM

The roll axis sensitivity is 17 lbs. left and right (in the real f16 stick)

pay attention to the graph for a 3mm displacement there would be 9 kg force or around 17 pounds just as the real thing so that graph belongs to the aleirons axe of the f16 stick

If you were a real engineer you would know that you can't just extrapolate a data set to suit your needs.

You could be right but you can't tell from that graph. It STOPS at 4000 grams. Therefore, according to that graph, the displacement STOPS at about 1.7mm. If you can find something that states the full deflection value of the Cougar mod then feel free to post it.

Not that it matters b/c a 9kg force would result in approximately 4mm of deflection per your graph. As a real engineer shouldn't you know that?

Here's something that's interesting from that site...

Max. Applied force 35 Lbs
Max. allowed force 45 Lbs

Feel free to explain what those numbers mean and how they fit into your claims.

Of course, once again, it's all moot because you fail to understand anything (as usual).

So, why won't you address my individual comments instead of just spouting the same thing over and over? Why won't you take the time to think about what I've posted?

Specifically...

Of course, none of that is relevant BECAUSE AS I SAID BEFORE, THE END OF TRAVEL DOES NOT MEAN THE END OF INPUT. Force sticks, even if they are slightly sprung for a small range of travel, can measure input AFTER travel has stopped

and here's another one...

Your graph does NOT show CONTROL INPUT versus stick force. It shows DEFLECTION versus stick force. The SOFTWARE determines control input. The software can ignore ALL THE INPUT if so desired. You can hang a car off that freaking stick and if the software decides to ignore it, then it's ignored.

Oh wait, I just remembered, you're not here to learn or discuss anything. You're here just to go back and reread your same statements over and over.

--Outlaw.

raaaid

10-02-2012, 02:05 PM

thats irrelevnt

my original point is that a short run is an advnatge to pilot and the air wolrd apply it and the racing world doesnt

besides i know it by experience since in every racing game i gain two seconds going with 40º of lock insteead of 400º as mostly everybody does

raaaid

10-02-2012, 02:15 PM

and here's another one...

Your graph does NOT show CONTROL INPUT versus stick force. It shows DEFLECTION versus stick force.

--Outlaw.

the force IS the imput

and that graph shows the center WITH NO DEAD ZONE

zander

10-02-2012, 02:19 PM

Screenshots?
Seriously?

You should consider putting them into your CV...

raaaid

10-02-2012, 02:30 PM

i dont want to give my real name in case a future employer searches me

if someone searched my name he would just find top research on maths from my dad :)

thats why i can tell what i think here but not in real life

zander

10-02-2012, 06:49 PM

i dont want to give my real name in case a future employer searches me

You really think McDonalds does a background checks on patty flippers?

Outlaw

10-02-2012, 06:55 PM

thats irrelevnt

What is irrelevant? Why do you refuse to be specific?

The relationship between your original point and your, "assinine BS" as you put it, is irrelevant to me because I never disputed your original point.

Since you bring it up though...

if you want high precision you go for lot of travel

if you want to go to the limit samll travel is best

Are you seriously stating that the only thing an F-16 pilot needs from his aircraft is to ride the limit and that precision means nothing?

the force IS the imput

and that graph shows the center WITH NO DEAD ZONE

It's funny that you continue to ignore my specific posts.

You are clueless. The force is the input TO THE STICK, but, NOT THE CONTROL SURFACES. The COMPUTER decides how to move the control surfaces REGARDLESS of the stick position.

It shows no PHYSICAL dead zone which means NOTHING when there is a computer sitting between the stick and the control surfaces.

Here's an example you may be able to wrap your head around...

If I start my car and floor the gas with the shifter in neutral, the engine should blow up very quickly from over revving. However, the computer WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN. At 6200 rpm it kills the ignition, thus preventing engine damage.

So, NO MATTER WHAT MY FOOT IS DOING ON THE GAS, the computer will not let the engine over rev. In this case, my gas pedal has a 100% dead zone.

Now, when I get the upgrade for my car which has "no-lift shift" (to keep the turbo charger up to speed during shifts), when I press the clutch to shift I WILL NOT HAVE TO TAKE MY FOOT OF THE GAS. The computer measures the position of the clutch and reduces throttle while the clutch pedal is depressed and then gradually increases the throttle back to 100% as I release the clutch pedal.

In both cases, the COMPUTER is deciding how much "dead zone" is in the gas pedal and has COMPLETE control of what the engine is doing. Just like the stick in the F-16.

--Outlaw.

raaaid

10-02-2012, 07:18 PM

you bring to many points, most irrelevant

we are discussing if the f16 stick has a 6mm dead zone

i call that bs, dont you agree?

so you agree with my original point of short run being an adavantage and the airworld using it, cool

well by making this thread i learnt you can have avery short run with the advanatges it brings and you can still have high precision by settin a gradual force damping

at least you make points not like the others out reasoned just can resource to personal attacks

taking into account the imput is the force that graph shows beyond discussion not apreciable dead zone

Outlaw

10-02-2012, 09:26 PM

you bring to many points, most irrelevant

Why are they irrelevant? You are the one posting a link to a GAME controller and then claiming that it is an EXACT DUPLICATE of the stick as installed in the F-16 Viper.

It is so obvious that it's NOT the same as the F-16 stick that I can't even begin to think of any living entity (including single celled animals, plants, bits of random RNA, etc.) that could not understand such.

we are discussing if the f16 stick has a 6mm dead zone

Then why did you bring this up...

my original point is that a short run is an advnatge to pilot and the air wolrd apply it and the racing world doesnt

Which is it, the 6mm dead zone or your, "original point"?

i call that bs, dont you agree?

How could you possibly ask that question? I've CLEARLY stated my position multiple times. Really, how is it possible to misunderstand me?

How much weed have you smoked today?

so you agree with my original point of short run being an adavantage and the airworld using it, cool

Where did I state that I agreed with your original point? How is it possible to get a degree related to the English language without being able to understand English?

well by making this thread i learnt you can have avery short run with the advanatges it brings and you can still have high precision by settin a gradual force damping

First, the "advantages" you speak ARE NOT REAL AND DO NOT EXIST. However, if you assume that they do exist, IF YOU DAMP THE SIGNAL then you have lost the (nonexistent) "advantages".

at least you make points not like the others out reasoned just can resource to personal attacks

You have not, "out reasoned", anyone. All of your statement have been decimated by everyone posting in this thread. This includes those that didn't even relate to your original post.

taking into account the imput is the force that graph shows beyond discussion not apreciable dead zone

As I have said, SO WHAT? Why won't you respond to my posts where I CLEARLY state why that is irrelevant?

--Outlaw.

ScottDmac

10-02-2012, 09:31 PM

I wake up every morning to read what's going on.
This chit rocks with a coffe and a smoke.

S!

hegykc

10-02-2012, 09:34 PM

Haha, this is still going :)

Why don't you setup the curves in your yoistick so that you have 10 times less travel than anybody else and fly with that.
And when you beat everyone in a dogfight, formation flying, take-off, landing and taxiing,
we can all agree that you're right and we're wrong.

Oh and, then fly a real life plane setup so that it has 10 times less demanding input, like an F16 with 2-3 pounds of max fore required, or an F-18 with 5cm of travel.

hegykc

10-02-2012, 09:43 PM

I wake up every morning to read what's going on.
This chit rocks with a coffee and a smoke.

S!

Haha, I'm trying that tomorrow!

and I don't even smoke. or drink coffee.

raaaid

10-02-2012, 10:21 PM

i made the point a short run is an advantage like the f16

fjord monkey as an f16 mechanic dismmissed it saying the whole run is dead band

bs

capici?

Hood

10-02-2012, 10:30 PM

i made the point a short run is an advantage like the f16

fjord monkey as an f16 mechanic dismmissed it saying the whole run is dead band

bs

capici?

Capisce, but Fjord is right. There is no way you could control any aircraft with a joystick movement of 6mm total. As we've said before (ad infinitum it seems) the movement of the stick is "dead" in that the stick movement does not affect the control surfaces.

Go onto dedicated F16 forums to ask the question or make this argument. I think from now I'll just mime patting you on the head and saying "There there little troll, whatever you say...." You really are only worth ridiculing. Sad that.

Hood

hegykc

10-02-2012, 10:57 PM

i made the point a short run is an advantage like the f16

Do you have a joystick? Do you have COD?

Where's the problem, why all this debate. Come on, lets set it up so that it has 6mm of travel and let's see how you do. Take off, formation flying, some aerobatics, dog fighting and landing. And if you can do that with 6mm of travel on your joystick, and do it better than a person with a regular joystick, or even better a person with a center mounted long travel stick,

every single one of us that disagreed with you will rite you a personal apology.

raaaid

10-02-2012, 11:18 PM

those 6 mm are damped with a strong gradual force so six mm its plenty enough

if you prefer the other version that the six mm is lose run ...

and then how much sense does have saying those six mm is to small for an imput and say as well all the input is in a zero run after the dead zone

for your info 0 minor than six

hegykc

10-02-2012, 11:32 PM

Somebody decipher the last one please.

So what now, are you saying you need both small travel AND force sensing ?
Cause you never said anything about force sensing.
Just that small travel is better.

raaaid

10-02-2012, 11:57 PM

i said since the begining i race with a small run and some force damping

you want proof my 40º lock on steering the wheel for 33º in the front wheel is efective?

here:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/record.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/1.jpg

hegykc

10-03-2012, 12:01 AM

No.

The thread title is " the air forces know the secret for uber piloting the sports world doesnt", so the main matter is obviously aviation.

raaaid

10-03-2012, 12:05 AM

nope the subject is the secret for uber piloting and thats a short run

so short in some cases as the f16 6 mm run

check out the original post:

i have several world record racing online and i feel like i cheated because i do something that i dont know nobody else does it

most people use in their joystick wheel 400º of lock, i use 40º

i texted extensively and in any racing game theres at least two seconds difference between both set ups i get

think about it wwi fighters sticks had a run like 50 cm modern fighter joystick run is like 5 cm

what i dont understand is why real racers dont use high sensitivity

hegykc

10-03-2012, 12:20 AM

nope the subject is the secret for uber piloting and thats a short run

OK, so we agree. Aviation is the subject here, we'll get to cars later.
Let's first test your claim about military aviation.

Setup your joystick to 6mm of travel, via the calibration curves, and the rest of us setup a regular travel joystick and we'll see who can fly the plane better in all conditions, dogfight, takeoff/landing, formation flying...
We can even use a real hardcore simulator, like the DCS: P-51D mustang, since you're talking about real life scenarios here.

raaaid

10-03-2012, 12:55 AM

ive already done it with my g25 wheel and set several world records, you need force damping for that short run and only my wheel has force feeback not my joystick

hegykc

10-03-2012, 01:21 AM

winny

10-03-2012, 09:16 AM

what i dont understand is why real racers dont use high sensitivity

They do!
All racing cars have more sensitive (or a lower steering ratio) than 'normal' road cars...

However the real racers have to deal with G-force, uneven roads, fatigue and, most importantly the possiblity of a very quick death should they mess it up..

There has to be a balance between sensitivity and safety. This is the point that your missing. You're not going to die because your PC racing wheel is too sensitive when the guy in front of you spins out and you react and crash.
Understeer and oversteer would be a nightmare to control, and god help you if you get a blow out on one of the front wheels at 200mph..

In an F-16 if you try and do something that would get you dead then the computer will just stop it happening. That's the pay off for such a highly sensitive stick.. you're not really in control, the plane is.

Fighter pilots have to deal with the same forces a racing driver does,and then some. Do you think it would be easy to make very small movements of your arm whilst being bounced around all over the sky in a purley mechanical WWII fighter with a tiny stick travel?

You're simply ignoring the saftey factor in this because you're basing you point on computer games, sitting at a desk.

zander

10-03-2012, 09:27 AM

what i dont understand is why real racers dont use high sensitivity

Do you have a driver's license?

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 10:22 AM

When will you guys realise he is a troll!!!

There just cannot be someone that is REALLY this DIM out there...

raaaid

10-03-2012, 02:47 PM

Yes, and I'll take your word for it, but let's leave cars and steering wheels for now.

So, you're now saying that you need both short run AND force feedback?
So if you had like, a logitech G940 or an MFFSB than you could do it?

exactly concretely not force feedback but centering force damping, besides contrary to wheels, joysticks have a quite short run already

yeah winny i agree with you i think the reason real racers dont use still a shorter run is safety reasons well spotted

i think the pilots who use the shorter run are rally ones

raaaid

10-03-2012, 02:48 PM

Do you have a driver's license?

i have a license for any bike and any car

i had two bikes and now use my dads car in a very safety manner

winny

10-03-2012, 03:24 PM

When will you guys realise he is a troll!!!

There just cannot be someone that is REALLY this DIM out there...

Raaid is raaaaid, take him or leave him. I've never seen him lose his temper, I've learnt a lot of useless info from reading his threads by trying to counter them. I don't see him as a problem.

What actually amazes me is how cruel people can be to what is essentially an easy target. But if bullying the special needs kids at school was your thing then carry on. The guy bought CloD so he's as much right as anyone to be here.

Personally I find the constant rehashing od the same old complaints over in the main forum more annoying than a completley harmless, if rather confusing Raaaid thread.

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 03:53 PM

Raaid is raaaaid, take him or leave him. I've never seen him lose his temper, I've learnt a lot of useless info from reading his threads by trying to counter them. I don't see him as a problem.

What actually amazes me is how cruel people can be to what is essentially an easy target. But if bullying the special needs kids at school was your thing then carry on. The guy bought CloD so he's as much right as anyone to be here.

Personally I find the constant rehashing od the same old complaints over in the main forum more annoying than a completley harmless, if rather confusing Raaaid thread.

His English is worse than mine but apparently he has a degree in it, he claims to be an engineer but constantly tries to prove even the most basic things wrong, look at this thread its a perfect example.. He could not be more wrong and evidence has been shown that shows he is utterly incorrect but he refuses to even listen.. Therefore I believe he is having a laugh with some mates in another forum at your guys expense or he is incredibly arrogant!!?!!

raaaid

10-03-2012, 04:11 PM

raaaid

10-03-2012, 04:35 PM

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 05:03 PM

so you still believe the 6 mm run are dead zone? if not the short run advantage is proved

youre so thick, proof it or shut up

and how do you dare to call me lier after having posted all subjects i passed in college, from latin to steam engines

edit:

why dont you get raceroom an steam free game and prove me wrong by driving with 400º run when i admit i got the record only for going with 40º and beat some of my 3 records in that masive free game

then you can talk by now its me and not you whos doing the uber piloting

Yes it might work on a racing game but its nothing like flying and especially nothing like dogfighting where precise aiming is key...

Take one obvious example, Airbus and Boeing.

Airbus use a sidestick and Boeing a conventional yoke.

Airbus uses a fly-by-wire system and a sidestick as the aircraft adheres to a strict flight envelope that is set within the flight limits of that particular aircraft. The pilot has limited control of the aircraft and in theory cannot endanger the crew and passengers by making the aircraft perform a maneuver that would otherwise lead to a stall or over loading and failure of the structure.

Boeing also a fly-by-wire system but they use a yoke. Now the reason that they use a centre stick is because unlike the Airbus aircraft even though they have a flight envelope the pilot IS in control of the aircraft and can make the aircraft perform maneuvers that could lead to a stall etc...

Which aircraft do most pilots prefer... Boeing obviously, they are in complete control if they need to not the flight computer.

Now obviously passengers jets and yokes can't be compared to centre sticks and side sticks in a fighter aircraft so case two, modern fighter jets...

Yes the current trend is sidesticks, but there is a very very simple reason for this. The design, modern military jets are designed to be EXTREMELY unstable and are kept in the sky by the computer not by the pilot, the modern pilots fly by the instruments in front of him and a centre stick is intrusive so that's one benefit of a sidestick.

So there you have it, nothing to do with how sensitivity or precision... the reason that modern jets use side stick is that in reality modern pilots do not have complete control over the aircraft the COMPUTER does.

Find me a military fighter aircraft that does not use fly-by-wire and has a side stick please.

@Winny, I hope you found that interesting :D

bongodriver

10-03-2012, 05:27 PM

ill resume this thread:

i claim i feel cheating getting world records racing cause i use 40º run while everybody uses over 200º

i back this up by the f16 having 6mm run

an expert comes and says the 6 mm run of the f16 is DEAD ZONE

i call this bs

everybody gets on me insulting me calling me idiot pathetic moron troll, this stresses me and i start saying deliring things about borgs

i back it up with a graph of a joystick of an f16 replica which shows no death zone at all

peeople keep trolling with personal attacks in fact even when realizing i was right they wont admit it but winny whose reasonable and admits the short run advantage and explains its not used as me to the extreme in the racing world for safety reasons which i share now

...

You see.....this is why people tell you to leave this place, why should everybody just accept and agree with everything you say just because you are a bit 'special' in the head? if you find it all too stressful and it makes you go into delerium then all the people advising you to leave for the good of your health are right.

winny

10-03-2012, 05:32 PM

Yes it might work on a racing game but its nothing like flying and especially nothing like dogfighting where precise aiming is key...

Take one obvious example, Airbus and Boeing.

Airbus use a sidestick and Boeing a conventional yoke.

Airbus uses a fly-by-wire system and a sidestick as the aircraft adheres to a strict flight envelope that is set within the flight limits of that particular aircraft. The pilot has limited control of the aircraft and in theory cannot endanger the crew and passengers by making the aircraft perform a maneuver that would otherwise lead to a stall or over loading and failure of the structure.

Boeing also a fly-by-wire system but they use a yoke. Now the reason that they use a centre stick is because unlike the Airbus aircraft even though they have a flight envelope the pilot IS in control of the aircraft and can make the aircraft perform maneuvers that could lead to a stall etc...

Which aircraft do most pilots prefer... Boeing obviously, they are in complete control if they need to not the flight computer.

Now obviously passengers jets and yokes can't be compared to centre sticks and side sticks in a fighter aircraft so case two, modern fighter jets...

Yes the current trend is sidesticks, but there is a very very simple reason for this. The design, modern military jets are designed to be EXTREMELY unstable and are kept in the sky by the computer not by the pilot, the modern pilots fly by the instruments in front of him and a centre stick is intrusive so that's one benefit of a sidestick.

So there you have it, nothing to do with how sensitivity or precision... the reason that modern jets use side stick is that in reality modern pilots do not have complete control over the aircraft the COMPUTER does.

Find me a military fighter aircraft that does not use fly-by-wire and has a side stick please.

@Winny, I hope you found that interesting :D

Thanks and apologies if the bullying special needs kids comment felt like it was aimed at you. It wasn't.

raaaid

10-03-2012, 05:32 PM

well there are two things for seinsitivity, should never had used that word

the shorter the run the higher the sensitibity( and the faster you can countersteer a stall in a plane or a spin in a car which is run dependant not sensitivity)

the stronger the centering force damping the lower the sensitivity

so its posible to have a short run whith all its advanatages witha very strong force damping which will lower the sensitivity as much as needed for formation ultraprecise flying

in fact the f16 stick design is much better than anything i tried in my g25 wheel, and i say that as quite an experten on virtual racing

raaaid

10-03-2012, 05:36 PM

if you find it all too stressful and it makes you go into delerium then all the people advising you to leave for the good of your health are right.

anyone being called a moron pathetic idiot troll gets stressed, specially when talking the truth and revealing a secret for virtual racings

how about if the mods took me as reference to turn this place alike the ubizoo where people would talk of their things as old friends with a very nice atmosphere

if someone is ultra mean to me a totally harmless guy maybe he shouldnt deserve the right to be among a bunch of nice guys all over the world with an agaisnt the stream interest on pilloting and flying

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 05:40 PM

raaaid

10-03-2012, 06:00 PM

In other words you did not read or did not understand my post, fantastic what's point creating a discussion if you don't listen to others.

@winny, no problem :)

i understood it but youre not dismissing my point of the shorter run being better, youre just giving away your info on the subject but not taking into account my new info

this is the ot really theres no need to take it to the air world

my simple TRUE POINT:

i got several world records RACING in masive games by my using extremely short runs, had i used a normal run i would be two second slower

now people who race and maybe interested in my extreme setup should ask me about the force feedback setting i use

people who wish to troll will troll with mostly non related info

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 06:23 PM

i understood it but youre not dismissing my point of the shorter run being better, youre just giving away your info on the subject but not taking into account my new info

this is the ot really theres no need to take it to the air world

my simple TRUE POINT:

i got several world records RACING in masive games by my using extremely short runs, had i used a normal run i would be two second slower

now people who race and maybe interested in my extreme setup should ask me about the force feedback setting i use

people who wish to troll will troll with mostly non related info

Thanks for proving again that you either did not read or understand what I posted, TROLL!

raaaid

10-03-2012, 06:25 PM

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 06:29 PM

i dont need ignore list, i have a mental list of haters whose opinion i take reversed, normally these guys have swastikas in their sigs, oh the subcouncios stream of thought, being insulted by them is equivalent to being praised by a nice guy

And I classic sign that the other person is correct Raaaid now changes his topic, nice touch calling me a nazi btw "OMG"...

@sig, I am british so you can't call me a nationalist when I fly blue aircraft LOL and I fly blue as I am a huge fan of the 109 and 190 purely from an engineering perspective... that is all.

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 06:43 PM

You do realise that the people standing by the aircraft are actually british soldiers who captured the aircraft...

@Winny I blame you for this ;) :P I long made it my aim not to discuss anything with Raaaid!

winny

10-03-2012, 06:49 PM

i dont need ignore list, i have a mental list of haters whose opinion i take reversed, normally these guys have swastikas in their sigs, oh the subcouncios stream of thought, being insulted by them is equivalent to being praised by a nice guy

hey that 109 nose art of your signature is your avatar

thats how you portrait yourself?

as a nationalist fighter beated but still surviving?

Come on Raaaid, pulling the Nazi card out is a little extreme. This is a WWII flight sim forum after all. Not everyone who flys 109's is a Nazi, no doubt there are probably the odd one or two but the massive majority are just aviation enthusiasts, 109's are nice birds (not as nice as Spittys ;P).

Also I think that you should take into account the fact that some of your posts are very hard to understand because of the dodgy translations.

And don't get stressed because somebody on the internet thinks you're wrong. Life's too short.

The same point I made about saftey in racing cars applies to aircraft too.
Too sensitive will get you dead very quickly. The F16's a bad example to use because it's all about pressure not movement. You'd be better off researching actual WW2 aircraft and the ammount of stick travel in each.
I think you'll find that they were made the way they were for lot's of different reasons, safety, precission, technical limitations of the time etc etc

It's not all about how quickly you can get the stick from one side to the other.

raaaid

10-03-2012, 06:51 PM

well i apologize for calling you a nationalist i was on the hating mood for your despice to me, sorry again wont do it again

well going on on my secret for racing ultrafast:

apart from extrem short runs: my favourite is that one in which the steering wheel and front wheel have 1:1 ratio

then i use not force centering damping for it keeps me from detecting the wheel lighter by understeering

but i use the maximum force feedback just as strong as when you dont touch the wheel it oscilates but when you hold it it stops, ive seen real f1 wheels doing this

winny

10-03-2012, 06:52 PM

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 06:55 PM

Guilty as charged, I'm dissapointed that he's now pulling the Nazi/Facist card.

Your dissapointed I am in shock :shock:, But I shouldn't be when he is wrong and realizes it rather than accepting it he tries to smear a persons reputation... (not that I have one these boards ;) ) but this is way way way below the belt, must have hurt him to be JUST SO WRONG!!

winny

10-03-2012, 06:59 PM

Your dissapointed I am in shock :shock:, But I shouldn't be when he is wrong and realizes it rather than accepting it he tries to smear a persons reputation... (not that I have one these boards ;) ) but this is way way way below the belt, must have hurt him to be JUST SO WRONG!!

It's not all bad - I'm probably the worlds leading authority on 'Dippy Birds' thanks to Raaaid.

(if you missed that thread this will probably go straight over your head.. It was epic)

JG52Krupi

10-03-2012, 07:00 PM

It's not all bad - I'm probably the worlds leading authority on 'Dippy Birds' thanks to Raaaid.

(if you missed that thread this will probably go straight over your head.. It was epic)

I saw that, that one made me laugh so hard I cried :D

raaaid

10-03-2012, 07:03 PM

i apologized

the main point discussed is a short run is an adavantage, is agreed is not taken to the extremes for safety reasons

do you agree with that?

the secondary point is that the 6 mm run of the f16 stick is dead zone

do you agree with that?

what youre doing is giving unecesary info to the two points and complicatin things

myself when calling to the point you call me troll, i lost my nerves and fell on that internet law, sorry again i lost my nerves

Outlaw

10-03-2012, 09:35 PM

Let me reiterate...

Why are you refusing to respond to my comment...

Of course, none of that is relevant BECAUSE AS I SAID BEFORE, THE END OF TRAVEL DOES NOT MEAN THE END OF INPUT. Force sticks, even if they are slightly sprung for a small range of travel, can measure input AFTER travel has stopped

--Outlaw.

raaaid

10-03-2012, 10:11 PM

Of course, none of that is relevant BECAUSE AS I SAID BEFORE, THE END OF TRAVEL DOES NOT MEAN THE END OF INPUT. Force sticks, even if they are slightly sprung for a small range of travel, can measure input AFTER travel has stopped

this graph proves you wrong:

force and displacement are linearly related, do i have to explain farter?

http://www.realsimulator.com/assets/images/displacement-vs-force-300.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgCwyHr7Fzs

5./JG27.Farber

10-03-2012, 10:14 PM

Raaid....

Really, I could have tackled you several times.... Destroyed you. However I realise you are mental and vunerable. Attacking you is like clubbing a baby seal. Quite often aswell, cos you are so wrong, a 14 year old studying GCSE Science (a bit like you diploma's which you think are Degrees) could actually prove you wrong....

O and look you just became a statistic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I actually didnt mind you making your ridiculous posts in the pilots lounge, even though I did originally, however you have just proved you are a total fool and will stoop to any argument to win! If you believe it or not. I really cant believe how much you talk about "everyone living in harmony" and now you call some one a Nationalist because you think its a "get out of a losing argument clause" as that person prefers blue aircraft, or flys in a blue squadron...

You just called everyone that flies blue a nazi in my book.

Actually this post makes you look a total fool:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34145

Assuming a picture is someones political beliefs.... What does this make me?

Also I would like to add with your degree in English, you see I have not missed aline between each sentence? - this is called a PARAGRAPH....

Just to prove Im right here is TWO better videos of Bruce Lee actually doing something real...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PLBXAcKyDw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-2gEx0n_MA

Yea it was used for an advert but I cant find a better one... Its hardly my fault that popular images are used by entertainment...

raaaid

10-03-2012, 10:36 PM

well godwings law doesnt apply when the person in question has an swastika in his signature and a german wwii squad as avatar if he feels like calling me a troll not keeping to the point where i point his faults but not wanting to unpleased winny i apologized

you know why so many people cant stand me

cause they cant afford my honesty

noway this guy tellings the truth is there anyone who does today?

edit:

oh if i had a recording of myself cutting a flying fly in half with a blade in MY ONLY TRY EVER, i bet people doesnt believe me :(

thats the chi, i made the fly fly to the blade while trowing the blade randomly

5./JG27.Farber

10-03-2012, 10:41 PM

well godwings law doesnt apply when the person in question has an swastika in his signature and a german wwii squad as avatar if he feels like calling me a troll not keeping to the point where i point his faults but not wanting to unpleased winny i apologized

you know why so many people cant stand me

cause they cant afford my honesty

noway this guy tellings the truth is there anyone who does today?

Edit:

Oh if i had a recording of myself cutting a fly in fly with a blade in my only try ever, i bet people doesnt believe me :(

thats the chi

No it applies to you... Why are you calling all blue flyers Nationalists? Nothing else you wrote made sense... So cannot be answered...

raaaid

10-03-2012, 10:46 PM

i fly blue as im suspicious in a past life i was a 109 pilot thing i get from my dreams

i find it applyable to people with swastikas in his sigs

as a matter of fact im not sure if here but i recall this is agaisnt the rules

5./JG27.Farber

10-03-2012, 10:59 PM

raaaid

10-03-2012, 11:22 PM

No, you just out of your tiny mind... :-P

i totally agree with that so what

a short run is an advantage

the whole 6mm run of the f16 sidestick being dead band its bs

:idea:

5./JG27.Farber

10-04-2012, 12:05 AM

Ok but I dont understand what your saying? Apart from when you called everyone on this forum a NAZI... :(

raaaid

10-04-2012, 12:12 AM

5./JG27.Farber

10-04-2012, 12:33 AM

i didnt, fed up of being insulted at the tenth guy insukting me i noticed his swastika in the sig, against the rules as all tthe personal attacks going on

you cant expect keep insulting a guy out of reason with out a reaction

Krupi's signiture is a historical photograph, you cant airbrush history... You cant call everyone a nazi because they dont dont agree with you... You seek the "truth" yet you deny historical fact!

You cant call everyone a nazi cos they fly blue aircraft! What about everyone elses feelings!? Why dont you have the love and compassion for other people you preach so much about?

You are wrong,wrong,wrong... ;)

If you promoted your cause with "I found this better to this specific case" - you would have infinatley more credability! <3

raaaid

10-04-2012, 12:53 AM

yes well you cant blame it for losing my nerves ive been call all kind of things for exposing:

a short run is an advantage to piloting

the 6mm run of the f16 stick being dead zone its bs

Hood

10-04-2012, 07:30 AM

yes well you cant blame it for losing my nerves ive been call all kind of things for exposing:

a short run is an advantage to piloting

the 6mm run of the f16 stick being dead zone its bs

It is truly is amazing that you persist in your delusions.

There there little troll, you're completely right.

Hood

raaaid

10-04-2012, 07:08 PM

well my intuition was right about the whole 6 mmm run being dead zone being uttr bs

its easy to be anyone on the net

actually im in the dark side of the moon

actually the sun shines here the naming it dark its because here we live in a future like wolrd where the best minds of earth whose find something forbiden has been taken to

i patented a mechanical antigravity vortex and next day the patent got published i woke up here

i dont know if this will get filtred but it may due to my rep

there are urban legends of people being killed for discovering water engines and such, thats not true they are taling to luna marte and andromeda colonies in case something goes bad on earth

actually f16 sidestick controls are copied from flying turtles, theyre really old, though f16 lack the force feedback the turtles have and those controls are my litle cheat to pilot online against earthlings