why they say a perpetum mobil its imposible what about the drinking bird?

[raaaid]

perpetum: for ever

mobile: moves:

according the latin ethimology of the concept a drinking bird will move forever if placed for example in a well

according physics a perpetuum mobil of the second kind is that one that not only moves as the perpetuum mobile of the first kind( as the solar system orbiting) but that if there was no friction would move faster and faster and with friction will keep moving

so in this century with been witness of the discovery of the holy grail of science a perpetum movile

but the universities sponsored by petrochenmicals have gone fast to brainwashed us into that yes it moves forever but is not a perpetum movil cause is not magic just evaporation

what about 1 km big 1000 tons drinking birds to solve energy problems?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-zeRCUicw

[Skoshi Tiger]

It's not classed as a perpetual motion machine because, either it uses an external energy source OR sooner or later it will need to stop and go to the toilet? one or the other! ;)

Has anyone ever used this as a way of going useful work?

Sometimes things like this don't scale well.

[raaaid]

would the universe be considered a perpetum mobile?

i think so then its not imposible :)

edit:

also if you compare a dinking bird with an steam engine youll see why the drinking bird is a perpetuum mobile of the second class which DECREASES the universe entropy

an steam engine from the transformtaion of hi pressure water with HIGH energy into steam at atmospheric pressure with LOW energy obtains WORK

a dinking bird from the transformation of low energy liquid into high energy vapour obtain WORK

natural perpetual inverse entropy

besides dont get us lost in semantics science sophisms, time travel and give a driniking bird to leonardo and ask him if its perepetumm motion or not

[Untamo]

would the universe be considered a perpetum mobile?

Simply put: No. As far the current theories(there are several) go, all of them come to some sort of an end.
1) Gravity wins -> Big crush(anti-big bang)
2) Gravity loses -> Dark death, all matter is scattered so thinly that two atoms can be found at distances that the galaxies have from each other now
3) in the event that there is an gravity equilibrium, everything will stay put, but all stars will eventually die, either go dwarf and shut down, nova, or collapse to a black hole. In the end, it will be dark, cold and dead.

But let's not worry, no one of us will ever see it ;)

[Skoshi Tiger]

Entropy is a big downer!

[CharveL]

/face palm

[raaaid]

well here my educated theory based on futurama episode of the only forward time machine:

eventually all atoms decay into a big nothing by radioactive decay with which the bibang conditions are repeated and the bigbang happens again

one question:

lets suppose entropy of the universe keeps growing: what does it matter if it can grow infinitally?

on the dinking bird:

the dinking bird is the most revolutionary engine till now since it produces energy from coolness produced by evaporation in the peak, all engines we know are based on heating up

work form coolness = inverse entropy?

i admit theres a limit in the bird in height but not in THICKNESS

it would be posible to build a dinking bird scaled one trillion times in thickness with which the work output would grow to a trillion squared for the surface growing four times as thickness doubles

wtf theres even an ufo in those giant drinking birds video

why not to make a toy instead of working on batteries works on a drinking bird

all kids would love it i know im one but its supressed by the petrochemicals who conttrol politics and education

[Hood]

There is one big problem with your hypothesis.

You.


Go and think of something original rather than regurgitating information or theories from whatever textbooks you're "studying" from.

Hood

[Sternjaeger II]

things like friction, irregularity of surfaces, wear and external factors will eventually bring your drinking bird to a stop.

Nothing's eternal, apart for your senseless ramblings that is..

[raaaid]

nope according science the bird will go on forever as long as theres water in the plate and evaporation happens( which even haoppens at very low temperatures)

you want something original and not regurgitated? here it is:

there are many colour wheels heres how to build the human one and authentic:

http://www.moillusions.com/wp-content/uploads/i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb234/vurdlak8/illusions/trippyredballs.gif


the secret? AFTERIMAGE

by that you know pink opposite colour is green if you tried red dots you would find out opposite colour in the wheel and best match it would light blue

that is in the true colour wheel the afterimage of each colour is in opposite postion :)

this is usefull to dress up elegantly :)

[Sternjaeger II]

nope according science the bird will go on forever as long as theres water in the plate and evaporation happens( which even haoppens at very low temperatures)

no, according to YOU. Read what I wrote Raaaid..

[raaaid]

i think youre confusing friction with wearing off

the bird PRODUCES WORK from evaporation

if you placed the bird in a well of constant level it could be working for 100 years but i admit it will not make it forever

[winny]

i think youre confusing friction with wearing off

the bird PRODUCES WORK from evaporation

if you placed the bird in a well of constant level it could be working for 100 years but i admit it will not make it forever

Temperature and humidity also effect 'dippy birds' if it's too cold or humid they either stop working or slow right down... Conversley, if you replaced the water with ethanol the bird would drink faster.

So in answer to your question "why they say a perpetum mobil its imposible what about the drinking bird?"

Because perpetual is forever and dippy birds aren't. Perpetual motion requires that no energy is taken from anywhere except the machine it's self. This is clearly not the case here. Dippy birds need an external heat source to work.

It's basic stuff. What you're basically doing here is taking a solar panel and making it worse...

[raaaid]

yes actually a wheel conected to a solar cell is equivalent to the drinking bird

but that is also a perpetuum mobil as long as theres the sun

you seem educated what about my proposition to thicken a drinking bird a trillion times keeping its height

the pressure gradient will be equal so it should work as well

the sience world has changed the concept of perpetual motion into creation of energy which is very different

we are brainwashed in college that the best engines are by burning fuel and anything better its imposible

even talking of cold fusion makes you look like a crackpot :(

[Hood]

you want something original and not regurgitated? here it is:





Hardly original is it?

[winny]

yes actually a wheel conected to a solar cell is equivalent to the drinking bird.

but that is also a perpetuum mobil as long as theres the sun

you seem educated what about my proposition to thicken a drinking bird a trillion times keeping its height
(

The idea of perpetual is forever, the sun isn't forever. You can't call anything that relies on an exhaustable source, no matter how big, perpetual.

Don't think a giant dippy bird is viable, massivley inefficient and financial suicide.
At the end of the day the bird is a heat engine, and a pretty rubbish one at that.

[Sternjaeger II]

i think youre confusing friction with wearing off

the bird PRODUCES WORK from evaporation

if you placed the bird in a well of constant level it could be working for 100 years but i admit it will not make it forever

I'm not confusing anything. Friction causes wearing off.
There's a dispersion of energy,air friction, movement wear..

[ATAG_Dutch]

Nothing's eternal, apart for your senseless ramblings that is..

Stern, me old pal. Long time eh?

Question: Why the bloody hell do you waste your precious time with this?

Kindest regards and all that!

:grin:

[WTE_Galway]

I have observed those drinking birds work better with heavy water.

[Sternjaeger II]

Stern, me old pal. Long time eh?

Question: Why the bloody hell do you waste your precious time with this?

Kindest regards and all that!

:grin:

Well the airshow season is almost over and I got back here hoping for some good news,but the only updates are Raaaid's usual rambling..

I admit it,it was a weakness of the moment..

[Tiger27]

yes actually a wheel conected to a solar cell is equivalent to the drinking bird

but that is also a perpetuum mobil as long as theres the sun

you seem educated what about my proposition to thicken a drinking bird a trillion times keeping its height

the pressure gradient will be equal so it should work as well

the sience world has changed the concept of perpetual motion into creation of energy which is very different

we are brainwashed in college that the best engines are by burning fuel and anything better its imposible

even talking of cold fusion makes you look like a crackpot :(


You have missed the point totally, the description of a perpetual motion device is "motion that continues indefinitely without any external source of energy" your bird has an external source.

The science world hasn't changed anything, without creation of energy how could you have perpetual motion?

[raaaid]

well if you consider science(modern church) definition a perpetuum mobile is that one that violates the 2nd principle of thermodinamics, as you point it creates energy

im more simple as having studied latin perpetuum mobile means it moves till it dies

just as the drinking bird the only KNOWN thermodinamic engine tha NEEDS NO FUEL

you can make a mercury barometer scaled 10000000000000 times in thickness and would work just as its model

then why not a dinking bird to produce energy?

well the petrochemicals dont want it so they brainwashed people into thinking if its not done its because its no no good, of course not good for them

the amount of energy you can get from this is unlimited just make it thicker, and oh boy did i study thermodinamics and physics

edit:

and thinking way out of the box:

dont you think that ufo in that giant dippy birds video i posted 1st confirms its hot stuff?

[Sternjaeger II]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1BvAwJwXPg4/TWF0L-R_IYI/AAAAAAAAAJs/BdhFGa75sWM/s400/faceplampicard.gif

[winny]

well if you consider science(modern church) definition a perpetuum mobile is that one that violates the 2nd principle of thermodinamics, as you point it creates energy

im more simple as having studied latin perpetuum mobile means it moves till it dies

just as the drinking bird the only KNOWN thermodinamic engine tha NEEDS NO FUEL

you can make a mercury barometer scaled 10000000000000 times in thickness and would work just as its model

then why not a dinking bird to produce energy?

well the petrochemicals dont want it so they brainwashed people into thinking if its not done its because its no no good, of course not good for them

the amount of energy you can get from this is unlimited just make it thicker, and oh boy did i study thermodinamics and physics

edit:

and thinking way out of the box:

dont you think that ufo in that giant dippy birds video i posted 1st confirms its hot stuff?

Forget latin. Your post was in English... Sort of. The recognised definition of perpetual motion is that it will continue forever until somebody or something stops it. By your definition a fruit fly that lives for one day is perpetual... Ridiculous.


Depends on what your definition of fuel is. Dippy birds work because of the chemical contained in the 'abdomen' of the bird. To make giant dippy birds would be financially un-workable. You'd need to produce vast quantities of the chemical, causing environmental issues and incurring large costs. The bigger the bird the longer it would take to 'drink'.

Holding the dippy bird up as some sort of example of a perpetual motion engine is just wrong. It isn't. It isn't as efficient as a solar panel, would cost more to make and the price per kilowatt would be astronomical.

Seriously raaid, as a method of energy production it's a non starter. Dippy birds have been around since the 1940's. If there was anything in it as an energy source somebody (probably the guy who owns the patent) would have done it..

Next....

[raaaid]

R12 is used by all fridges and is not hazardous

i was wrong about the latin meaning of perpetuum

if you only grow thickness the energy you can get is unlimited

IT HASNT BEEN TRIED

you fell in my prediction you would say if it isnt done it isnt worthy( of course for petrochemicals)

the truth is we BOTH dont know if it could work or not but you gotta admit a huge driniking bird would be cool

[Sternjaeger II]

then try it and shut up.

[raaaid]

i have a terrible anhedonia, the only thing that enterteins me its bulletins and maybe gambling though i have no money to do it

no game enterteins me no more, if i was told at 10 i would have all the games of the world but not enjoy them i wouldnt believe it :(

so i wont shut up

do you thing anhedonia comes with age?

im very suspicious its the antipsicotics side effects

havent you noticed an improvement?

its because i reduced the meds a lot, one of them had a side effect of causing hallucinations

reality is no different than a dream, things just APPEAR to fit

after all why would you call a dream less real thatn reality? just cause is no made of matter?

[Sternjaeger II]

i have a terrible anhedonia, the only thing that enterteins me its bulletins and maybe gambling though i have no money to do it

no game enterteins me no more, if i was told at 10 i would have all the games of the world but not enjoy them i wouldnt believe it :(

so i wont shut up

do you thing anhedonia comes with age?

im very suspicious its the antipsicotics side effects

havent you noticed an improvement?

its because i reduced the meds a lot, one of them had a side effect of causing hallucinations

reality is no different than a dream, things just APPEAR to fit

after all why would you call a dream less real thatn reality? just cause is no made of matter?

what really boggles the mind is that you're still allowed in this forum, or near a PC connected to the internet for the matter..

besides if you really suffer from anhedonia, what are you doing on a gaming forum? Clearly this doesn't satisfy your needs. Go discuss on a gambling forum, I'm sure you'll be warmly welcomed there...

[raaaid]

oh i just chose a crazy forum where adults pretend to be aces ;), in the science forums i get banned from all :)

also for the matter i still play some games, mostly piloting games

also you lack to apreciate my comicity

[Hood]

oh i just chose a crazy forum where adults pretend to be aces ;), in the science forums i get banned from all :)

also for the matter i still play some games, mostly piloting games

also you lack to apreciate my comicity

You're an idiot.

Hood

[raaaid]

things like friction, irregularity of surfaces, wear and external factors will eventually bring your drinking bird to a stop.



do you realize this is wrong since a drinking bird is a thermal engine that produces work that is movement from coolness bigger than the force of friction?

its work being produced from COOLNESS what makes it revolutionary

tell me a single other engine that works by cooling down instead of heating up

reverse entropy?

[Hood]

Yep you're an idiot. Go and understand what entropy is before spouting more rubbish.

Hood

[raaaid]

a thermal engine produces work by balancing to a medium a hot and cold foci, this increases entropy

a fridge takes to extremes both hot and cold foci by giving it work, this increases global entropy

a dinky bird is the 2nd kind, both foci, both in the peak take the foci to the extreme and YET PRODUCES WORK

[WTE_Galway]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2009/09/22/128978848546988589_1.jpg

http://www.borderschess.org/drinkbirdwisc.gif

[raaaid]

actually the dippy bird makes me realize how stupid i am

maybe you can help me:

water evaporates from the peak gaining energy from the sun

bird produces work

same amount of water condensates giving back all the energy from the sun

then from what energy has the bird produced work?:confused:

[Sternjaeger II]

feeling like Stewie here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WNrx2jq184&feature=related

[raaaid]

family guy is a new kind of show very usual nowadays

they show a really obnoxious guy so you hate him

then they show him in all kind of disgraces so you enjoy at his suffering

i prefer the simpsons where the opposite happens a good guys rewarded :)

[winny]

actually the dippy bird makes me realize how stupid i am

maybe you can help me:

water evaporates from the peak gaining energy from the sun

bird produces work

same amount of water condensates giving back all the energy from the sun

then from what energy has the bird produced work?:confused:

Raaid, go and google 'dippy bird' there are plenty of pages that describe how these work... They get the energy from the Sun! It's absorbed by the chemical, it rises up the tube, tips the bird, the water then evapourates and the balance is tipped the other way. Gravity is also at work here.. It's not rocket science.

[WTE_Galway]

So if they get energy from the sun why don't they stop at night ?

[winny]

So if they get energy from the sun why don't they stop at night ?

Because it's stored as heat in the chemical and the atmosphere. If the chemical is warm enough it will rise up the tube, regardless of what time of day it is.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

actually the dippy bird makes me realize how stupid i am
Better late than never..

Had a known all it would take is a dippy bird for you to realise it, I would have got you one years ago!

Welcome to reality

[raaaid]

well im stupid cause i cant answer this question can you?

the sun(even at total dark) gives energy to the water in the peak and evaporates

the bird moves

the water condensates giving back ALL THE INITIAL ENERGY and falls as rain

if the sun gives energy to the water but all the energy is given back to rain WITH WHAT ENERGY MOVES THE BIRD?

edit:

the bird is the BEST thermodinamic engine ever known, why?

it works with the lowest temperature difference between cold and hot focii

not sterling can do that no carnot can do that

the science world is manipulated you want proof:

my dad solved fermats theorem in an elemental manner(that is with fermats time maths)

no peer magazine is interested for not being of their interest even if correct

yet a respected online philosophical magazine gives him credit with being the 1st person after fermat who solved the problem FUNDAMENTALLY

http://symploke.trujaman.org/index.php?title=Pedro_Fermat

99% of the science world is endorsed by petrochemicals, what gain would they get if energy was got from giant dinky birds

[zander]

Finite-time thermodynamics of an instrumented drinking bird toy (http://users.df.uba.ar/giribet/f4/drinking_bird.pdf)

[raaaid]

missleading excess of info to hide this fact:

the eficiency of the dinky bird doesnt matter a dumb since it USES NO FUEL

the ultimate utility of a big eficiency is to get the maximum from the LIMITED fuel

the dipping bird as mr galway pointed works in total dark so its even better than solar panels and obviously much easier to build and they work on fridge fluid like r12

also i would like to know what people think of that ufo on the giant dippy birds video

hey look at what those humans are doing there, will they see it?

a barometer gives hardly any energy but you could build a 100000 m thick barometer that would produce huge energy from atmospheric changes in pressure, the same you could do with the dinky bird, increasing thickness changes nothing but work output

[zander]

Conclusion:

1. You're an unrecognized genius.
2. Ufos exist (what is it that makes you search for Ufos in every vid? Why can't it be a dust speck?)
3. You found the solution to our energy problems.

[raaaid]

not really even google auto completes drinking bird with power or perpetuum mobile

[zander]

which proves what exactly?

[major_setback]

How much energy could you get from 1 bird?
I think we will need a few hundred to power a small working-class household (1 computer and 1 lightbulb during summer), or a dozen third world houses (same but no computer).
Large scale production is essential if it is to work, and we will see large dippy birds all over the countryside, which will be fine in most of Europe, but the British will complain that it is making the place look a bit of a mess. There will be protests involving setting leading members of parliament on fire and 'women of a certain age' chaining themselves to Noel Edmunds.
So I can't see it happening. Not in Britain anyway.

[winny]

well im stupid cause i cant answer this question can you?

the sun(even at total dark) gives energy to the water in the peak and evaporates

the bird moves

the water condensates giving back ALL THE INITIAL ENERGY and falls as rain

if the sun gives energy to the water but all the energy is given back to rain WITH WHAT ENERGY MOVES THE BIRD?



Wow, this just shows how little you understand. All the initial energy is given back!? What? All the water is given back, not energy. The water is just a part of the engine. Energy leaks out of dippy birds.

Dippy birds have a pivot, in all cases where a pivot is used some energy leaks into them as friction.

This just shows that you are either unwilling or unable to employ a bit of critical thinking. Google dipping birds as an energy source and get yourself an education..

Better still, if it's so easy, make one a couple of feet high and then come back and tell me that you've solved the worlds energy problems.. You wont as you increase the size the friction from the pivot will increase, the amount of time between dips will increase, the amount of energy required from the sun will also increase, ever noticed how cold swimming pools are even in the height of summer?

Edit: you also seem to have really misunderstood how dippy birds work. The purpose of the water is to cool the chemical as it evapourates, that is all. It is not part of the energy system in the bird, it is used only to cool the chemical and make it retreat back down the tube.

[major_setback]

Isn't it a gravity powered device? At least partly.
The condensed fluid flows down the tube causing the bird to right itself.

If the birds were floating in water that would be pretty frictionless...the same water they dip into maybe.. :-). Sorry, just trying to confuse the issue.

[winny]

Isn't it a gravity powered device? At least partly.
The condensed fluid flows down the tube causing the bird to right itself.

If the birds were floating in water that would be pretty frictionless...the same water they dip into maybe.. :-). Sorry, just trying to confuse the issue.

Yes, gravity is involved... but I've already mentioned that and it appears to have gone sailing way above raaaaaaaids head some where, probably next to that 'UFO' in the video..

Anyway I now know more about bloody dippy birds than is healthy.. I'm off to annoy somebody in an FM/DM thread... At least the laws of physics apply over there.

[WTE_Galway]

Large scale production is essential if it is to work, and we will see large dippy birds all over the countryside, which will be fine in most of Europe, but the British will complain that it is making the place look a bit of a mess. There will be protests involving setting leading members of parliament on fire and 'women of a certain age' chaining themselves to Noel Edmunds.
So I can't see it happening. Not in Britain anyway.

No large scale Dippy Bird farms scattered on hillsides across the Midlands ??? ... oh, now that's a shame.