I Refuse To Fly WW2 CoD German Aircraft. Why?

[MB_Avro_UK]

Hi all,

I regard myself as educated. I have a good university degree, I went to what is regarded as a 'good' school and I enjoy all periods and aspects of history. I value reasoned and at times unreasoned debate!

As regards Cliffs of Dover, I cannot bring myself to 'fly' German aircraft. I used to fly German aircraft in il2 1946 against Russian aircraft online without a problem. Maybe this was a Cold War hang-over??

Perhaps the problem is caused by an 'enemy' attacking my home?? Yes, I realise that it's not real and it all comprises digital ones and noughts etc. But overflying Dover, Brighton and Manston with such good maps does bring it home to me.

How would our German members here feel about an RAF Bomber Command and US 8th bomber assault on their country as a simulator? Would a few German members fly Lancasters and B-17s?

What are the opinions of today's Neutrals?

And as I have mentioned in a previous thread, this post is in no way a condemnation of today's Germany. Germany is my second home. Britain and Germany lost their way in 1914 because of politicians and again in 1939. And our beer tastes the same:) And we have the same Royal Family:)

And many of us have similar DNA:)

How's the Euro at the moment:cool:



Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[6S.Manu]

I fly anything except Italian planes... :-)

[MB_Avro_UK]

;)

[Bewolf]

I've flown bombers attacking Germany or german troops in IL2 all the time, espeically the P47 was a favorite ride. Used the Blen here also a couple times. But then again, carpet bombing missions never were on the cards to begin with.

It's a game, if you take it "too" seriously, I suggest getting out and travelling a bit more.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Have you lost your mind?

England (including all other countries, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland, as was appropriate at this time to refer to them simply as England) and France declared war on Germany.

Dispite numerous peace offers of Germany (or the 3rd Reich if you prefer), we the English (British) declined, even when Hitler offered to step down... These peace offering and nogotiations even encluded Rudolf Hess (2nd deputy of Germany) flying to Scotland to reason with the Duke of Hamilton.... In short NSDAP Germany went to great lengths not to war with England. Through the situation England which found the situation of events distasteful - waged war on Germany upon the will of only one man - Winston Spencer Churchill - Lord of the Admiralty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MRfcYZNS9Y

"Victory, Victory at all costs!" A victory that cost the English (yes Im English but I was not there) an Empire! An Empire that was put up as collatoral for the massive and extorsionate loans from the USA and other countries. An Empire which granted some states independance in exchange for service to the British Realm in exchange if they fought for Britian! - Indian Regiments for example! An Empire WS Churchill was trying to save!

Winston Spencer Churchill, syphilis sufferer, was a Veteran of the colonial wars (he had to do the exam 3 times at sandhurst to become an officer because he failed it twice!) in India and Africa. He was fighting for Englands (Britians) sake, for an Empire he "cashed in" to fight the Germans! Only Great Britain was to rule the world - having the largest empire in the world EVER! It was Mutually Assured Destruction before the cold war!

What ever you believe (and I am not pro NSDAP or anything else but a human being!) you must consder the historical importance from before and after this time!


I'd also like to point out Germany finally repaid its War reperations a few years ago:

Wikipedia (unreliable)

World War II
Europe
Further information: German reparations for World War II

After World War II, according to the Potsdam conference held between July 17 and August 2, 1945, Germany was to pay the Allies US$23 billion mainly in machinery and manufacturing plants. Reparations to the Soviet Union stopped in 1953. In addition, in accordance with the agreed-upon policy of de-industrialisation and pastoralization of Germany, large numbers of civilian factories were dismantled for transport to France and the UK, or simply destroyed.[citation needed] Dismantling in the west stopped in 1950.

In the end, war victims in many countries were compensated by the property of Germans that were expelled after World War II. Beginning even before the German surrender and continuing for the next two years, the United States pursued a vigorous program to harvest all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents and many leading scientists in Germany (known as Operation Paperclip). Historian John Gimbel, in his book Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany, states that the "intellectual reparations" taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10 billion.[5] German reparations were partly to be in the form of forced labor. By 1947, approximately 4,000,000 German POWs and civilians were used as forced labor (under various headings, such as "reparations labor" or "enforced labor") in the Soviet Union, France, the UK, Belgium and in Germany in U.S run "Military Labor Service Units".
See also: Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union, POW labor in the Soviet Union, and World War II reparations towards Yugoslavia

Germany paid Israel 450 million DM in Holocaust reparations, and paid 3 billion DM to the World Jewish Congress to compensate survivors in other countries. No reparations were paid to the Romanies who were killed during the Holocaust.[6]

According to the Paris Peace Treaties, 1947, Italy agreed to pay reparations of about US$125 million to Yugoslavia, US$105 million to Greece, US$100 million to the Soviet Union, US$25 million to Ethiopia, and US$5 million to Albania. Finland agreed to pay reparations of US$300 million to the Soviet Union; Finland also was the only country which fully paid its war reparations. Hungary agreed to pay reparations of US$200 million to the Soviet Union, US$100 million to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. Romania agreed to pay reparations of US$300 million to the Soviet Union. Bulgaria agreed to pay reparations of $50 million to Greece and $25 million to Yugoslavia. According to the articles of these treaties, the value of US$ was prescribed as 35 US dollars to one troy ounce of pure gold.
Japan

According to the Treaty of Peace with Japan and the bilateral agreements, Japan agreed to pay around ¥1.03 trillion.[citation needed] For countries that renounced any reparations from Japan, it agreed to pay indemnity and/or grants in accordance with bilateral agreements.

The government of the United States officially apologized for the Japanese American internment during World War II in the 1980s and paid reparations.

Wheras England and the USA never paid any reperations for the crimes against humanity for Dresden, Hamburg, Nagasaki or Hiroshima! The VICTORS write the rules...

In short patriotism is for C****! ;)

[MB_Avro_UK]

I've flown bombers attacking Germany or german troops in IL2 all the time, espeically the P47 was a favorite ride. Used the Blen here also a couple times. But then again, carpet bombing missions never were on the cards to begin with.

It's a game, if you take it "too" seriously, I suggest getting out and travelling a bit more.

Thanks. I'll go back to Germany again and therefore travel a bit more :rolleyes:

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[Hood]

Have you lost your mind?

England (including all other countries, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland, as was appropriate at this time to refer to them simply as England) and France declared war on Germany.

Dispite numerous peace offers of Germany (or the 3rd Reich if you prefer), we the English (British) declined, even when Hitler offered to step down... These peace offering and nogotiations even encluded Rudolf Hess (2nd deputy of Germany) flying to Scotland to reason with the Duke of Hamilton.... In short NSDAP Germany went to great lengths not to war with England. Through the situation England which found the situation of events distasteful - waged war on Germany upon the will of only one man - Winston Spencer Churchill - Lord of the Admiralty.

...

"Victory, Victory at all costs!" A victory that cost the English (yes Im English but I was not there) an Empire! An Empire that was put up as collatoral for the massive and extorsionate loans from the USA and other countries.

Winston Spencer Churchill, syphilis sufferer, was a Veteran of the colonial wars (he had to do the exam 3 times at sandhurst to become an officer because he failed it twice!) in India and Africa. He was fighting for Englands (Britians) sake, for an Empire he "cashed in" to fight the Germans! Only Great Britain was to rule the world - having the largest empire in the world EVER!

What ever you believe (and I am not pro NSDAP or anything else but a human being!) you must consder the historical importance from before and after this time!


In short patriotism is for C****! ;)

My considered but non-medical opinion is that you're either completely mad or a complete fool. WW2 may very well have had its roots in WW1 but ultimately it was started by Germany's invasion of Poland and Britain doing what she said she'd do for Poland and thereafter France. I believe it was Chamberlainthat declared war with the support of Parliament but I can't be bothered to research it.

Now of course we could have had an armistice with Germany, and left most of Europe in German hands until they'd finished with Russia before starting on us, but I can't quite bring myself to believe that any pact with Germany would have been honoured.

But anyway I have no idea what this has to do with the original post. Avro, as a Brit I'm happy to fly Luftwaffe planes and through it now have some great German and Austrian friends. In fact I prefer Luftwaffe aircraft to RAF aircraft though the Spit is the most beautiful plane ever.

Hood



BBC

1939: Britain and France declare war on Germany
Britain and France are at war with Germany following the invasion of Poland two days ago.
At 1115 BST the Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, announced the British deadline for the withdrawal of German troops from Poland had expired.

He said the British ambassador to Berlin had handed a final note to the German government this morning saying unless it announced plans to withdraw from Poland by 1100, a state of war would exist between the two countries.

Mr Chamberlain continued: "I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received and consequently this country is at war with Germany."

Similarly the French issued an ultimatum, which was presented in Berlin at 1230, saying France would be at war unless a 1700 deadline for the troops' withdrawal was adhered to.

King George has called upon "my people at home and my peoples across the seas". He continued: "I ask them to stand calm, firm and united in this time of trial. The task will be hard. There may be dark days ahead and war can no longer be confined to the battlefield. But we can only do the right as we see the right and reverently commit our cause to God."

A War Cabinet of nine members has been set up with two new ministers, including Winston Churchill as First Lord of the Admiralty, the post he held at the outbreak of World War I. Lord Hankey becomes Minister without Portfolio.

Anthony Eden will take over as Dominions Secretary with special access to the War Cabinet. Mr Eden resigned from the post of Secretary of Foreign Affairs last year because he disagreed with the policy of appeasement.

The National Service (Armed Forces) Act has been passed making all men between 18 and 41 liable for conscription. The armed forces have already been mobilized for war and in July the first Territorial Army conscripts were called up.

Latest reports from Poland say the Germans have bombed a number of towns and cities, some with little or no strategic importance. About 1,500 are reported to have been killed or injured in the attacks on Friday and Saturday.

In his broadcast to the nation, Mr Chamberlain spoke of his sadness that "the long struggle to win peace" had failed.

He continued: "I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different that I could have done and that would have been more successful."

Yesterday there was anger in the House of Commons over the Government's apparent delay in taking action against Germany.

Labour's deputy leader Arthur Greenwood had accused the Prime Minister of vacillating when "Britain and all that Britain stands for are in peril".

Today's declaration of war was received with rousing cheers. As Mr Chamberlain informed the House Britain could not take part in a five-power conference proposed by Italy while Poland was being invaded.

It has also been received with great enthusiasm in the Polish capital, Warsaw, where crowds took to the streets outside the British and French embassies cheering and singing.

[5./JG27.Farber]

My considered but non-medical opinion is that you're either completely mad or a complete fool. WW2 may very well have had its roots in WW1 but ultimately it was started by Germany's invasion of Poland and Britain doing what she said she'd do for Poland ...


Yes Poland, the Polish that were good enough to fight and die for the Glorious British Empire and then whom were left under Soviet control.... BETRAYED by the English! The Soviets that exterminated the Polish officer Corps? AKA - The Katyn massacre

It might have been Chamberlain that declared war but as he resigned in the face of war it was left to the new PM to conclude the fact!

as for the BBC - forget it. They are a media organisation "independant of the government" apparently. Reporting of non facts is not a crime of news broadcasters. They can print what they like.


But anyway I have no idea what this has to do with the original post

Quite allot if you care to read it again:

Hi all,

I regard myself as educated. I have a good university degree, I went to what is regarded as a 'good' school and I enjoy all periods and aspects of history. I value reasoned and at times unreasoned debate!

As regards Cliffs of Dover, I cannot bring myself to 'fly' German aircraft. I used to fly German aircraft in il2 1946 against Russian aircraft online without a problem. Maybe this was a Cold War hang-over??

Perhaps the problem is caused by an 'enemy' attacking my home?? Yes, I realise that it's not real and it all comprises digital ones and noughts etc. But overflying Dover, Brighton and Manston with such good maps does bring it home to me.

How would our German members here feel about an RAF Bomber Command and US 8th bomber assault on their country as a simulator? Would a few German members fly Lancasters and B-17s?

What are the opinions of today's Neutrals?

And as I have mentioned in a previous thread, this post is in no way a condemnation of today's Germany. Germany is my second home. Britain and Germany lost their way in 1914 because of politicians and again in 1939. And our beer tastes the same:) And we have the same Royal Family:)

And many of us have similar DNA:)

How's the Euro at the moment:cool:



Best Regards,
MB_Avro.



Please dont pretend this is all cut and dry of the baddies versus the goodies.


For your records,


my Grandmothers brother (fathers mother) was a stoker on an LCT at Dieppe - KIA
My Grandfather was a a rating on a Royal Navy (converted trawler) minesweeper 1943+ including D-Day - survived (although its partner sister ship was blown to smitherenes with the loss of all hands whilst dragging a cable and cutter over sea mines!)
My fathers uncle was a Bomber pilot (Jack Roberts - DFM) who worked his way from Sterlings and Hampdens to mosquito intruder squadrons. (of which I can find no trace online in any free archieves) - Survived
My fathers mother was a WRAF plotter - Survived



Peace.

[bongodriver]

Once the Soviets decided to betray the west and take what chunk of europe it could I don't think there was much Britain could have done about it.

[arthursmedley]

Have you lost your mind?

England (including all other countries, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland, as was appropriate at this time to refer to them simply as England) and France declared war on Germany.

Dispite numerous peace offers of Germany (or the 3rd Reich if you prefer), we the English (British) declined, even when Hitler offered to step down... These peace offering and nogotiations even encluded Rudolf Hess (2nd deputy of Germany) flying to Scotland to reason with the Duke of Hamilton.... In short NSDAP Germany went to great lengths not to war with England. Through the situation England which found the situation of events distasteful - waged war on Germany upon the will of only one man - Winston Spencer Churchill - Lord of the Admiralty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MRfcYZNS9Y

"Victory, Victory at all costs!" A victory that cost the English (yes Im English but I was not there) an Empire! An Empire that was put up as collatoral for the massive and extorsionate loans from the USA and other countries. An Empire which granted some states independance in exchange for service to the British Realm in exchange if they fought for Britian! - Indian Regiments for example! An Empire WS Churchill was trying to save!

Winston Spencer Churchill, syphilis sufferer, was a Veteran of the colonial wars (he had to do the exam 3 times at sandhurst to become an officer because he failed it twice!) in India and Africa. He was fighting for Englands (Britians) sake, for an Empire he "cashed in" to fight the Germans! Only Great Britain was to rule the world - having the largest empire in the world EVER! It was Mutually Assured Destruction before the cold war!

What ever you believe (and I am not pro NSDAP or anything else but a human being!) you must consder the historical importance from before and after this time!


I'd also like to point out Germany finally repaid its War reperations a few years ago:

Wikipedia (unreliable)



Wheras England and the USA never paid any reperations for the crimes against humanity for Dresden, Hamburg, Nagasaki or Hiroshima! The VICTORS write the rules...

In short patriotism is for C****! ;)


Truly one of the most bizarre postings ever made on a flight sim forum.

Farber, where on earth do you get your information?
Churchill suffered from Syphilis!? Hitler offered to step down?? Roflmao!!
The war was Churchills decision alone!!? The clip you posted gives you the lie to that statement anyway. When Chamberlain stepped down as PM in May 1940 there were two choices to succeed him. Churchill or Halifax. Whoever was PM had to command the support of the Labour party to form a national government. The Labour party did not trust Halifax. They turned to Churchill because the mood of the country was defiance.

Everyone realised that to make terms with Hitler meant the end of our freedom and the end of any hopes of freedom for the rest of Europe.

You don't, by any chance get your information from some sort of....er....right wing political websites do you? Just askin'.

[raaaid]

you take this game so seriously you cant fly german

man i take it so real life like i dont even shoot, just fly fopr the fun

[5./JG27.Farber]

Truly one of the most bizarre postings ever made on a flight sim forum.

Farber, where on earth do you get your information?
Churchill suffered from Syphilis!? Hitler offered to step down?? Roflmao!!
The war was Churchills decision alone!!? The clip you posted gives you the lie to that statement anyway. When Chamberlain stepped down as PM in May 1940 there were two choices to succeed him. Churchill or Halifax. Whoever was PM had to command the support of the Labour party to form a national government. The Labour party did not trust Halifax. They turned to Churchill because the mood of the country was defiance.

Sorry it was his father who had it. As for the mood of the people, please see Simon Schama's interpretation. Hes a historian, I am a layman.

Everyone realised that to make terms with Hitler meant the end of our freedom and the end of any hopes of freedom for the rest of Europe.

What freedom? Freedom to be ruled by one or another? You should seriously look up fleet law and common law and see how our freedoms are being used by corporations. We are all serfs under somebody.

You don't, by any chance get your information from some sort of....er....right wing political websites do you? Just askin'.

No I do not. If you had read the above correctly you would not make assumptions as you are. I prefer to read as many sources as I can and draw my own conclusions as a Human Being. ;)

[MB_Avro_UK]

you take this game so seriously you cant fly german

man i take it so real life like i dont even shoot, just fly fopr the fun

?

[Hood]

For your records,


my Grandmothers brother (fathers mother) was a stoker on an LCT at Dieppe - KIA
My Grandfather was a a rating on a Royal Navy (converted trawler) minesweeper 1943+ including D-Day - survived (although its partner sister ship was blown to smitherenes with the loss of all hands!)
My fathers uncle was a Bomber pilot (Jack Roberts - DFM) who worked his way from Sterlings and Hampdens to mosquito intruder squadrons. (of which I can find no trace online in any free archieves) - Survived
My fathers mother was a WRAF plotter - Survived



Peace.

What your relatives did have no bearing on how misguided your post is, though I'd love to know what they'd say if they read it.

The original post was nothing to do with the rights and wrongs, but with flying aircraft used by the "enemy" whichever side the "enemy" fought for.

As for "peace", what does that mean? Acceding to the demands of a bonkers leader freeing him up to annexe large parts of Europe and exterminating entire races, or does it mean making the ultimate sacrifice to protect your country, its people and those that you are allied with?

I think you can shove your version of peace so far up the dark place that it tickles your nose.

Hood

ps for your records, one grandfather stepped on a mine but lived and one taught pilots to fly Spits. I think they'd both laugh at you, or worse.

pps Over and out as I don't think I can contribute more in the face of obstinate stupidity.

[5./JG27.Farber]

What your relatives did have no bearing on how misguided your post is, though I'd love to know what they'd say if they read it.

I included it purley for the people, who like you, like to jump on the "what my ancestors did in the war and why I am pround and right!" crowd who think war is glorious and rightous! The people that use the argument "my ancestors took part so I have a right to say what I think!". Well my ancestors took part and here is what I think!

The original post was nothing to do with the rights and wrongs, but with flying aircraft used by the "enemy" whichever side the "enemy" fought for.

As for "peace", what does that mean? Acceding to the demands of a bonkers leader freeing him up to annexe large parts of Europe and exterminating entire races, or does it mean making the ultimate sacrifice to protect your country, its people and those that you are allied with?

I think you can shove your version of peace so far up the dark place that it tickles your nose.

Hood

ps for your records, one grandfather stepped on a mine but lived and one taught pilots to fly Spits. I think they'd both laugh at you, or worse.

pps Over and out as I don't think I can contribute more in the face of obstinate stupidity.

Im sad for you. I think they would all agree wars a waste. ;)

Why didnt you make any reasoning or point of the Polish officer corps massacre by the Soviets? Why dont you feel troubled by the betrayel of Poland by England and France? These things that lead to the war mean nothing for the glory of England? What about the war crimes of the British of Hamburg and Dresden?

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

and let us not forget:

“That was mere foreplay. Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings.” (German: “Das war Vorspiel nur. Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.”)
- Heinrich Heine, Almansor (1821)

You say that the second world war was fought to preserve freedoms! Yet you deny me these freedoms! You sir are the evil. You have become what you hate!


As for "peace", what does that mean?

It means I dont wish anybody any harm.



So Avro Uk, fly what makes you happy for what ever reasons because you are free to do so! :-P

[MB_Avro_UK]

Does anyone know the pressure of the front tyres of an Octavia? In general
terms. I'll make my own assessment if there are no replies. Thank you all.

How does it compare to a Superb?

And were Skoda tanks the best?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[=CfC= Father Ted]

MB_Avro_UK, you are clearly deluded:

our beer does NOT taste the same!

[5./JG27.Farber]

Does anyone know the pressure of the front tyres of an Octavia? In general
terms. I'll make my own assessment if there are no replies. Thank you all.

No but I hear Skoda are a VW now. So win win! Previously the jokes of like when does a Skoda do 60 mph? - when it drives of a cliff! are no more!



How does it compare to a Superb?

And were Skoda tanks the best?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Whats a superb and no...




MB_Avro_UK, you are clearly deluded:

our beer does NOT taste the same!

I can also bear witness and NO its now where near.

Becks for the win! :-P (at least for import in UK)

[WTE_Galway]

And were Skoda tanks the best?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Hi Avro,


Not sure.

But here is a nice picture of a Skoda car being run over by a Sherman tank.

http://www.vord.net/friends/skoda/skoda4.jpg

[Blackdog_kt]

I'm from Greece. We lost 10% of our population during the axis invasion and subsequent occupation.

Most of these casualties were not the result of initial combat actions, but of the Wermacht stealing the country's entire food production and shipping it to the eastern front, with the end result that during the winter of '41 people were dying in the streets of cities out of starvation.

Also, a compulsory loan was exacted, whereby the occupied Greek state was forced to print money en masse for the occupying troops to use. Essentially, money was printed so the occupation troops could be rich when they were on leave, but it drove inflation sky high, to the point that a few slices of bread on the streets of Athens were priced at 1 billion drachmas during that winter.

Apart from a couple of airstrips constructed or expanded for use by the luftwaffe (the old Athens airport and the currently used Thessaloniki airport), the rest of the country's civilian infrastructure was blown back to the stone age and all means of production either seized or destroyed. Apart from the first two installments that the Nazi government paid back, the rest of the loan was never returned and neither did the Greek state receive any war reparations whatsoever.

Finally, some archeological digs were started and it is somewhat unclear if, what kind of and how many antiquities were stolen and if so, whether they have been returned.

The countryside was a different story. Food shortages were not as pronounced, but the villages were under frequent reprisal raids to discourage aiding the guerrilla fighters.

As a side note, the Greek guerrilla groups had mostly liberated the countryside by as early as 1943, leaving the axis troops to only control the big cities. A few hours to the north Serbian and Yugoslav groups were also successful, to the point that parts of Yugoslavia were the only occupied territories to be declared an active front. In both cases, this was happening at the same time that the guerrilla groups were fighting both the axis and each other in a civil war based on political beliefs (royalists vs communists usually). All of this tied up valuable units that would have been otherwise used on the Eastern Front. In fact, the entire operation Marita (the assault on the Balkans) delayed the start of Barbarossa and possibly made a real difference, if we take into account the fact that the Wermacht was stopped about 20kms outside Moscow.

However, all this came at a high price in lives and a lot of that was civilians and non-combatants. In many cases entire villages were leveled and hundreds of people summarily executed as reprisals. Also, most of these war crimes committed during the occupation were not the work of NSDAP instruments lke the SS and Gestapo, but perpetrated by regular Wermacht troops under the orders of well known high command Generals.

This started as early as the battle on the Bulgarian border, when a machine gunner was captured after inflicting heavy losses to an attacking Wermacht detachment. The Wermacht officer ordered the man to be brought to him, saluted him and then ordered his execution to boost the morale of his own troops. This is the first documented execution.

In Crete, the paratroopers leveled the Cretan village of Kandanos right after the battle, to punish the Cretan civilians for their tenacious defence, leaving behind an inscribed plaque to discourage further resistance actions.

In Athens, unarmed citizens went up in open revolt against the forced worker conscription policy and were fired on by carabinieri. However they succeeded and Greece was the only occupied country that wasn't forced to send workers to the factories building tanks and aircraft for the axis, maybe because they thought they would sabotage everything.

Finally, the villages of Kalavryta and Distomo were leveled, men between the ages of 12 and 60 were executed and other civilians locked into the church and set on fire.

On top of all that, Greece also had 2 squadrons of fighters (335 and 336 sqd) and a light bomber squadron (i think that was 33 sqd, usually operating with mixed crews of Greek officers as pilots/navigators and Commonwealth troops as aircrew/gunners) operating under RAF command in N.Africa and then over Italy (for example, the bombers took part in the battle of Monte Casino shortly after switching from Blenheims to Martin Baltimores, the fighters were active in the battle of El Alamein, etc), ground troops that fought in the Middle East and Italy, a commando detachment that took part in the battle of the Dodecanese along with British troops, as well as numerous warships operating in the Mediterranean and as convoy escorts in the Indian ocean, a Flower class corvette that was part of the D-Day fleet, numerous merchant ships running the U-boat gauntlet and getting sunk in the Atlantic daily, loads of civilian fishing trawlers transporting allied operatives around the occupied Balkans and even a guerrilla held and maintained airport smack in the middle of axis occupied territory (the Serbs had one too and they used it to evacuate 600 downed airmen from the Ploesti raids, with terrible risk of reprisals for their civilians), which was so well camouflaged that JG27's 109s operating from Athens were unable to inflict any serious damage to it despite numerous ground attack sorties. That airport was eventually taken over by axis ground troops and the head of the guard (which was manned by the armed branch of the Greek communist party) stayed back until he exhausted his ammo and got killed, in order to allow the British SOE operatives to escape and plan further actions against the occupying forces.

What am i getting at you'll ask?

Well, if anybody should be feeling bad about flying axis it should be Greeks :-P

Despite all that, i have no problem flying on the Axis team. I fly sims to experience a specific part of history that i like, so that i can further understand and study it. I don't feel guilty at all. If anything, i get an even better appreciation of what our grandpas did back then when i see how superior the 109Fs they faced over El Alamein were against their Hurricane Mk.IICs, or how outclassed their PZL24s would have been against an onslaught of 109Es during that April of '41.

There are a few other posters on this board that i know to be Greek and they also mostly fly axis aircraft. Heck, i was flying blue on IL2:1946 mod maps that had me flying over a scaled down depiction of Greece and i still had no apprehensions about it.

That being said, it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. Some people will get a more emotional response, so understandably it will be harder for them to fly on the "enemy" team.

By the way, i think it was Krupi on these boards who once commented about a scheduled multiplayer event when the time was adjusted to allow US players an easier participation: "Damn Yanks telling me when i can bomb my homeland, what's next?". I hadn't laughed that hard in quite a while :grin:

For me the answer is simple. Each one should fly what they are comfortable with, understand there is no shame in that and finally, realize that other players might have a different feeling about it all and not judge them negatively. We're here to learn, appreciate the efforts of people on all sides and have fun while doing it, not relive the hatred that caused that mess in the first place ;)

[skouras]

hey buddy you are a Greek too:grin:
nice...

[fruitbat]

I always fly german stuff in IL2 1946, but find it hard to in Clod, mainly because of Crummp on these boards.

[JG52Krupi]

HAHA :lol: , glad I made you laugh Blackdog its always a pleasure to read your posts!

I'am guessing that its because your the only person on the forums that has truly taken heed of this wise saying...

"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

;)

[Skoshi Tiger]

I'm from Greece. We lost 10% of our population during the axis invasion and subsequent occupation.

Most of these casualties were not the result of initial combat actions, but of the Wermacht stealing the country's entire food production and shipping it to the eastern front, with the end result that during the winter of '41 people were dying in the streets of cities out of starvation.

Also, a compulsory loan was exacted, whereby the occupied Greek state was forced to print money en masse for the occupying troops to use. Essentially, money was printed so the occupation troops could be rich when they were on leave, but it drove inflation sky high, to the point that a few slices of bread on the streets of Athens were priced at 1 billion drachmas during that winter.

Apart from a couple of airstrips constructed or expanded for use by the luftwaffe (the old Athens airport and the currently used Thessaloniki airport), the rest of the country's civilian infrastructure was blown back to the stone age and all means of production either seized or destroyed. Apart from the first two installments that the Nazi government paid back, the rest of the loan was never returned and neither did the Greek state receive any war reparations whatsoever.

Finally, some archeological digs were started and it is somewhat unclear if, what kind of and how many antiquities were stolen and if so, whether they have been returned.

The countryside was a different story. Food shortages were not as pronounced, but the villages were under frequent reprisal raids to discourage aiding the guerrilla fighters.

As a side note, the Greek guerrilla groups had mostly liberated the countryside by as early as 1943, leaving the axis troops to only control the big cities. A few hours to the north Serbian and Yugoslav groups were also successful, to the point that parts of Yugoslavia were the only occupied territories to be declared an active front. In both cases, this was happening at the same time that the guerrilla groups were fighting both the axis and each other in a civil war based on political beliefs (royalists vs communists usually). All of this tied up valuable units that would have been otherwise used on the Eastern Front. In fact, the entire operation Marita (the assault on the Balkans) delayed the start of Barbarossa and possibly made a real difference, if we take into account the fact that the Wermacht was stopped about 20kms outside Moscow.

However, all this came at a high price in lives and a lot of that was civilians and non-combatants. In many cases entire villages were leveled and hundreds of people summarily executed as reprisals. Also, most of these war crimes committed during the occupation were not the work of NSDAP instruments lke the SS and Gestapo, but perpetrated by regular Wermacht troops under the orders of well known high command Generals.

This started as early as the battle on the Bulgarian border, when a machine gunner was captured after inflicting heavy losses to an attacking Wermacht detachment. The Wermacht officer ordered the man to be brought to him, saluted him and then ordered his execution to boost the morale of his own troops. This is the first documented execution.

In Crete, the paratroopers leveled the Cretan village of Kandanos right after the battle, to punish the Cretan civilians for their tenacious defence, leaving behind an inscribed plaque to discourage further resistance actions.

In Athens, unarmed citizens went up in open revolt against the forced worker conscription policy and were fired on by carabinieri. However they succeeded and Greece was the only occupied country that wasn't forced to send workers to the factories building tanks and aircraft for the axis, maybe because they thought they would sabotage everything.

Finally, the villages of Kalavryta and Distomo were leveled, men between the ages of 12 and 60 were executed and other civilians locked into the church and set on fire.

On top of all that, Greece also had 2 squadrons of fighters (335 and 336 sqd) and a light bomber squadron (i think that was 33 sqd, usually operating with mixed crews of Greek officers as pilots/navigators and Commonwealth troops as aircrew/gunners) operating under RAF command in N.Africa and then over Italy (for example, the bombers took part in the battle of Monte Casino shortly after switching from Blenheims to Martin Baltimores, the fighters were active in the battle of El Alamein, etc), ground troops that fought in the Middle East and Italy, a commando detachment that took part in the battle of the Dodecanese along with British troops, as well as numerous warships operating in the Mediterranean and as convoy escorts in the Indian ocean, a Flower class corvette that was part of the D-Day fleet, numerous merchant ships running the U-boat gauntlet and getting sunk in the Atlantic daily, loads of civilian fishing trawlers transporting allied operatives around the occupied Balkans and even a guerrilla held and maintained airport smack in the middle of axis occupied territory (the Serbs had one too and they used it to evacuate 600 downed airmen from the Ploesti raids, with terrible risk of reprisals for their civilians), which was so well camouflaged that JG27's 109s operating from Athens were unable to inflict any serious damage to it despite numerous ground attack sorties. That airport was eventually taken over by axis ground troops and the head of the guard (which was manned by the armed branch of the Greek communist party) stayed back until he exhausted his ammo and got killed, in order to allow the British SOE operatives to escape and plan further actions against the occupying forces.

What am i getting at you'll ask?

Well, if anybody should be feeling bad about flying axis it should be Greeks :-P

Despite all that, i have no problem flying on the Axis team. I fly sims to experience a specific part of history that i like, so that i can further understand and study it. I don't feel guilty at all. If anything, i get an even better appreciation of what our grandpas did back then when i see how superior the 109Fs they faced over El Alamein were against their Hurricane Mk.IICs, or how outclassed their PZL24s would have been against an onslaught of 109Es during that April of '41.

There are a few other posters on this board that i know to be Greek and they also mostly fly axis aircraft. Heck, i was flying blue on IL2:1946 mod maps that had me flying over a scaled down depiction of Greece and i still had no apprehensions about it.

That being said, it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. Some people will get a more emotional response, so understandably it will be harder for them to fly on the "enemy" team.

By the way, i think it was Krupi on these boards who once commented about a scheduled multiplayer event when the time was adjusted to allow US players an easier participation: "Damn Yanks telling me when i can bomb my homeland, what's next?". I hadn't laughed that hard in quite a while :grin:

For me the answer is simple. Each one should fly what they are comfortable with, understand there is no shame in that and finally, realize that other players might have a different feeling about it all and not judge them negatively. We're here to learn, appreciate the efforts of people on all sides and have fun while doing it, not relive the hatred that caused that mess in the first place ;)

Thankyou for putting this in perspective.


One of the reasons I don't feel comfortable in the Axis planes is that darned electric pitch control. I keep on porking the engines. I think I need to put some time into theBlue planes just to beable to even up teams when needed! (also let some Red pilots have a few easy kills some times ;) )

Cheers

[Feathered_IV]

Farber, I'm going to pop you on my ignore list for a bit.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Farber, I'm going to pop you on my ignore list for a bit.

Excellant! Yes please do and prove you are against peoples freedoms:

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil



What am i getting at you'll ask?

Well, if anybody should be feeling bad about flying axis it should be Greeks :-P

Despite all that, i have no problem flying on the Axis team. I fly sims to experience a specific part of history that i like, so that i can further understand and study it. I don't feel guilty at all. If anything, i get an even better appreciation of what our grandpas did back then when i see how superior the 109Fs they faced over El Alamein were against their Hurricane Mk.IICs, or how outclassed their PZL24s would have been against an onslaught of 109Es during that April of '41.

There are a few other posters on this board that i know to be Greek and they also mostly fly axis aircraft. Heck, i was flying blue on IL2:1946 mod maps that had me flying over a scaled down depiction of Greece and i still had no apprehensions about it.

That being said, it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. Some people will get a more emotional response, so understandably it will be harder for them to fly on the "enemy" team.

By the way, i think it was Krupi on these boards who once commented about a scheduled multiplayer event when the time was adjusted to allow US players an easier participation: "Damn Yanks telling me when i can bomb my homeland, what's next?". I hadn't laughed that hard in quite a while :grin:

For me the answer is simple. Each one should fly what they are comfortable with, understand there is no shame in that and finally, realize that other players might have a different feeling about it all and not judge them negatively. We're here to learn, appreciate the efforts of people on all sides and have fun while doing it, not relive the hatred that caused that mess in the first place ;)

+1 :cool:

Its is LOVELY to hear your side from a Greek. Thank you for sharing!

Sincerely,

RF.

S!

[Hood]

Ok I'll bite and I'll even do the old using quotes thingy too.

I included it purley for the people, who like you, like to jump on the "what my ancestors did in the war and why I am pround and right!" crowd who think war is glorious and rightous! The people that use the argument "my ancestors took part so I have a right to say what I think!". Well my ancestors took part and here is what I think!

I do believe you jumped first. What my grandparents did doesn't make what I think right nor does it affect what I think. Neither do I think that war is glorious and righteous. You really are jumping to conclusions.

Im sad for you. I think they would all agree wars a waste. ;)

I think they'd agree wars are a waste but I also think they'd consider you to be a crazy loon and/or a right wing fanatic. That or someone who has been led so far up the wrong path they don't have the wits to see what's in front of them.


Why didnt you make any reasoning or point of the Polish officer corps massacre by the Soviets? Why dont you feel troubled by the betrayel of Poland by England and France? These things that lead to the war mean nothing for the glory of England? What about the war crimes of the British of Hamburg and Dresden?

Because they had nothing to do with Avro's post just nonsensical ramblings on your part. I'll deal with them if you want.

The Katyn massacre happened as did the Soviet purges, as did the Holocaust as did atrocities caused by my any armies of many other nations etc etc etc. Britain couldn't somehow reach into Poland to prevent a massacre that they knew nothing about, and once knowing the decision was probably that the pact with the USSR was more important. The extent of Soviet and German atrocities was not properly understood until the end (yes I know that reports were received about the concentration camps before the war's end).

Poland is a sad subject. I suppose that having lost 400,000 troops and an empire, that Britain could have taken on the Red Army with their 10,000,000+ troops, incredible production rates and easier logistics. Go and read about the Yalta conference and see what Churchill wanted for eastern Europe.

The bombing of Hamburg and Dresden by the RAF and USAAF was not a war crime. Morally wrong, possibly, though that is a question for greater philosophers than me. My personal opinion is that it was an honest and tragic mistake.

You say that the second world war was fought to preserve freedoms! Yet you deny me these freedoms! You sir are the evil. You have become what you hate!

Congratulations you can use the internet and read quotes.

I'm trying to work out how I deny you your freedoms and how exactly I am evil. What I really hate is having to eat vegetables or fish, and I'm not a vegetable or a fish. If I were I'd have difficulty typing don't you think?

You've confirmed my belief that you are a fool. It'd be better if you were just stupid, though maybe you're that too.

I'm going away now before you drag me down even further and beat me with your experience.

Hood

[Feathered_IV]

Excellant! Yes please do and prove you are against peoples freedoms:

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

So, you're a monster then?
Whatever. Have fun with all your swastikas.

[LcSummers]

I for myself fly everything. I like the different aircraft types.
Why should i not fly the I-16 if its available.
Lancaster, Wellington, WHIRLWIND great but please made them.:-P

Russian, French, Italian, German, British, American, Japanese aircraft are beautiful, sure i have my favorites, but like most of them.

No need for me to be one sided.;)


S!

[JG52Krupi]

So, you're a monster then?
Whatever. Have fun with all your swastikas.

Your an ass, there is truth in what Farber has stated that doesn't mean he supports a certain ideology you presumptuous **** head

[Rince]

Your an ass, there is truth in what Farber has stated that doesn't mean he supports a certain ideology you presumptuous **** head

+ 1

I flew couple of sorties with farber, and he`s absolutely not an ideological one way street.

I am german and i had my thoughts about this topic, but for me it`s just a plane and at least just a simulator that i play and got nothing to do with my attitude of life.

:rolleyes:

I think that everyone should be aware of the things that happened in history. That's the best way to learn, concerning all mistakes every single nation did in the past.
After all it had to be done, fighting rhe nazi regime in WW 2 to avoid the genocide of Jews and to stop the nazis and their ideology.
I for my part have the distance and the knowledge to maintain the distance to fly a bf-109, because i like the flying in that plane more, than in a spit or hurry. (But i like more the shape of the spit, to be true!)

[Wolf_Rider]

You say that the second world war was fought to preserve freedoms! Yet you deny me these freedoms!




To follow on from what you are saying here (but not in response to you for what you are saying...

Freedom and freedom of speech, is people being able to move about freely, to associate, to choose their work, to write, to read, etc and the freedom to be able voice thoughts and feelings without fear - it does not mean one has the freedom to do or say whatever they please.

[carguy_]

Germans still in denial about WWII I see. 20 milion people killed is not enough for you?

[carguy_]

Yes Poland, the Polish that were good enough to fight and die for the Glorious British Empire and then whom were left under Soviet control.... BETRAYED by the English!

Yes, +1 betrayal is the right word here.

[bongodriver]

Yes, +1 betrayal is the right word here.


Yes because the British should have fought an unwinnable war alone against the Russians just so Britain could have been part of the Soviet Union too, makes perfect sense to do this immediately after a war which practically broke our country.

[Feathered_IV]

Your an ass, there is truth in what Farber has stated that doesn't mean he supports a certain ideology you presumptuous **** head


I was thinking of his sig picture before the mods insisted he change it. Never seen so many swastikas in one place. Please take your insults somewhere else.

[Robo.]

Hi all,

I regard myself as educated. I have a good university degree, I went to what is regarded as a 'good' school and I enjoy all periods and aspects of history.

Yet, you don't even know that your country is indeed part of what we call Europe :-P

As regards Cliffs of Dover, I cannot bring myself to 'fly' German aircraft. I used to fly German aircraft in il2 1946 against Russian aircraft online without a problem. Maybe this was a Cold War hang-over??

I understand what you mean. I have very similar perspective on German / British people. I spend considerable amount of time in both countries and I agree that you are, in a way, very very similar indeed. This has nothing to do with today's politics. As for the personal feelings flying for the bad guys or for the good guys, we are spending our evenings in the Summer of 2012 by shooting pixels on other guys sipping beer in their living rooms, that is quite different to the Summer of 1940 and boys climbing in ther Messerschmitts or Hurricanes.

If I'd be having your kind of hard feelings, I would not be able to fly for the Luftwaffe, because these German guys split my country and as a result our pilots fly the 109s against the Russians, who I can't fly either although some of our pilots were good with their Lavochkas and also because they bloody invaded us later on. I can't fly the USAAF because they dropped bombs on us and killed our pilots trying to make them bomb somewhere else. I can't fly for the Hungarians because we had a war with them early on and I can't fly the RAF although there were also some pilots in the same time when the other ones flew their 109s and they were enemies.

As you can clearly see, I can't fly any simulators because of my feelings and I would be obliged to be shooting down myself, which is is very tricky:

http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Tiger138260.htm

[JG52Krupi]

I get the feeling that this thread is going to show the REAL trolls of the community not the ones that are fed up of a buggy game but the ones that think if you fly blue it means you support there ideology.

Before you say anything about me I am British, was born in Germany and I can't stand patriots.

I have long forgotten why I started flying blue but my first few years playing il2 were spent flying for the reds. I now fly blue mainly due to my love of the engineering behind the 109 and 190 plus they just look so mean :D

Truth be told at the release of cod I almost quit JG52 to look for an RAF side and I have participated occasionally with 56raf squad sorties on ATAG :)

[Robo.]

England (including all other countries, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland, as was appropriate at this time to refer to them simply as England) and France declared war on Germany.

Dispite numerous peace offers of Germany (or the 3rd Reich if you prefer), we the English (British) declined, even when Hitler offered to step down... These peace offering and nogotiations even encluded Rudolf Hess (2nd deputy of Germany) flying to Scotland to reason with the Duke of Hamilton.... In short NSDAP Germany went to great lengths not to war with England. Through the situation England which found the situation of events distasteful - waged war on Germany upon the will of only one man - Winston Spencer Churchill - Lord of the Admiralty.

That is very true. It was the utter aggression and expansive politics of the English politicians AND people that was behind the outbreak of the Second world war. It was Mr. Churchill who plotted the evil plan to take over after Chamberlain and get some small shitty countries to call themselves Great Britain. It was the poor small peaceful Germany with calm and loving chap in the lead who wanted to be left alone. Instead, they were stabbed in their loving hearts by WLS Churchill. Such a sad story that was.

[Robo.]

Before you says anything about me I am British, was born in Germany and I can't stand patriots.

Well said Krupi. It's hilarious how people see things because of a computer game with aircraft.

[6S.Manu]

Before you say anything about me I am British, was born in Germany and I can't stand patriots.
;)

Because of this I usually fly blue BUT don't ask me to fly italian planes...


I have long forgotten why I started flying blue but my first few years playing il2 were spent flying for the reds.
For me it's simple: I always liked the Tie-Fighters more than the X-Wings... it a "Dark Side" matter.

I love games like Dungeon Keeper and Evil Genius...

http://www.peoplejam.com/files/u1811/MrBurnsExcellent.gif

Not that in WW2 there were a striking difference between Good and Bad, IMO.

[swiss]

The war was Churchills decision alone!!?

Not entirely untrue.
Hitler wanted a cease-fire treaty with England from the beginning, the basic idea was to work in Africa together(or at least not bother each other). Had WC taken it, you'd still have your colonies today. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn8vp6GsqkA#t=00m43s


As of Summer '43 Hitler tried again to achieve the same with the Western Allies, of course they would only accept an unconditional capitulation, which he had to reject.
(source: rudel, stuka pilot)

[5./JG27.Farber]

That Stuka pilot interview video collection is awesome. Very long and detailed and talks about allot of aspects from the common soldiers point of view.


As for the red aircraft, I just find the instruments and the way the pitch works quite backwards. Also there is a plus side to flying blue, you get to fight all the other countries and in allot more theatres. Those that love the RAF aircraft are not going to be so happy with the Eastern front. Although the units which fly the VVS stuff will love it. We that fly blue get to enjoy allot more theatres!


Feathered IV:

The images in my units signitures are awards from fighting in our camapigns against other squadrons. We try to emmulate the Luftwaffe as accuratley as possible. We combine flight simming with history. None of the images our personal beliefs. Our signitures are our virtual uniforms and the medals and awards are placed upon them in the same position as if it were a real tunic with the correct (although there wasnt much of rule in the Luftwaffe) order of precedence. By looking at one of members fully dressed signitures you can see what he has taken part in and estimate how many victories he has to his virtual career. Victories are only added when we fight against other squadrons in organised events and furthermore can only be added if you survive and get back to friendly lines. Its like a resume or CV. It is not an alignment to any political group, we are a apolitical unit. It is simply for historical accuracy reenactment purposes. We also write newspapers about our actions, I will include one for you below, just be careful as we try to emmulate a certain "Wochanschau" style in the content. Please also note the "One Sided Publication" at the bottom right. Hopefully now you can understand a little better my position. ;)

[Al Schlageter]

Not entirely untrue.
Hitler wanted a cease-fire treaty with England from the beginning, the basic idea was to work in Africa together(or at least not bother each other). Had WC taken it, you'd still have your colonies today. ;)

As of Summer '43 Hitler tried again to achieve the same with the Western Allies, of course they would only accept an unconditional capitulation, which he had to reject.
(source: rudel, stuka pilot)

arthursmedley's post was a question, not a statement. Notice the '?'.

It is naive to believe Hitler would honour any agreements, as history shows.

[MD_Titus]

a cease fire was never on the cards after the polish and french invasions, to say that churchill or england are responsible for the war is hilarious. treaties were drawn up to restrict german expansion, and they were held. the fact that the poles were so royally shafted after the war is far more worth discussing than the apologist fallacy of "england and france started the war".

[carguy_]

Yes because the British should have fought an unwinnable war alone against the Russians just so Britain could have been part of the Soviet Union too, makes perfect sense to do this immediately after a war which practically broke our country.
So you sat back and observed execution of milions in 1939 and then again of hundreds of thousands in 1945.

And puuuhlease man! You don`t have the slightest idea of what "broken country" means.

[swiss]

It is naive to believe Hitler would honour any agreements, as history shows.

Right, Stalin was much better. Unlike the Allies he didn't return his countries after the war. There was no way to avoid the war in the East, Stalin would have tried to advance westwards sooner or later anyway.


arthursmedley's post was a question, not a statement. Notice the '?'.


Actually it was "!!?" a combo which doesnt exist["?!" does], I'll have to take it as "!!".

[fruitbat]

So you sat back and observed execution of milions in 1939 and then again of hundreds of thousands in 1945.

And puuuhlease man! You don`t have the slightest idea of what "broken country" means.

What exactly do you think the British could of done out of interest?

[carguy_]

What exactly do you think the British could of done out of interest?
Maybe gather ~70 divisions along with France and march into Germany?

[Chromius]

The only victors in war are those that financially profited, and hence pulled the strings to a certain degree, even in WWI

Follow the money trail. Its way to complicated to digest in a short period of time. Want a wake up call, just follow the Bush families interests and investments start in WWII go to Present. Wow shocking ehh.

And it is all presently playing out once again. One thing is certain, never believe the spin the try to sell you on as far as the reasons behind why we do it, and do not trust the history you think you believe.

It is all so convoluted no one is really able to figure out the truth. Two things are certain most of what takes place is done for Money and Control

[Hood]

Yes, +1 betrayal is the right word here.

And there's me thinking the Poles fought to kill Germans when all along it was to preserve the British Empire.

Put yourself in the position of Britain in 1945. Stretched, tired, broke and with an empire in tatters. Then look at what they'd have to face to contest Poland by force.

Betrayal, no. Invasion by an unstoppable force, certainly. There's a whole world of difference between turning your back or just accepting what has happened because the costs of doing something are too high.

I reckon the Soviets could have driven their tanks up Pall Mall quite quickly if they'd wanted to.

[Hood]

Maybe gather ~70 divisions along with France and march into Germany?

That'd do a lt against the 300 or so divisions the Soviets had.

[carguy_]

And there's me thinking the Poles fought to kill Germans when all along it was to preserve the British Empire.
The Poles thought all along that even after betraying Poland in 1939, the British would walk them to Berlin and further, ensuring the liberty of the Polish people. Battle of Britain was just the first step.


Put yourself in the position of Britain in 1945. Stretched, tired, broke and with an empire in tatters. Then look at what they'd have to face to contest Poland by force.
Yet the Britain was able to face the USSR when it was about sharing the III Reich.


Betrayal, no. Invasion by an unstoppable force, certainly. There's a whole world of difference between turning your back or just accepting what has happened because the costs of doing something are too high.
Britain should have never ratify any international agreements if they were to ignore them from the start.


I reckon the Soviets could have driven their tanks up Pall Mall quite quickly if they'd wanted to.
I reckon the Allied forces still had a few milion German soldiers ready to fight the commies by the end of the war.

[carguy_]

That'd do a lt against the 300 or so divisions the Soviets had.
First off, they did not know that USSR was about to invade on 17th September.

Second, Germans showed in 1941 what the USSR divisions are worth.

[fruitbat]

Maybe gather ~70 divisions along with France and march into Germany?

and you think that would of gone well?

[fruitbat]

Second, Germans showed in 1941 what the USSR divisions are worth.

So you also think that the russian army was the same quality in 45 as 41, lol.

[carguy_]

So you also think that the russian army was the same quality in 45 as 41, lol.
I was talking about the first betrayal back in 1939. In 1945 only few Polish army men believed in anything Churchill said.

[carguy_]

and you think that would of gone well?
Well some German commanders commented it would have.

[Al Schlageter]

Actually it was "!!?" a combo which doesnt exist["?!" does], I'll have to take it as "!!".

If the '!!' came last only. As the '?' came last it was a question.

[fruitbat]

Well some German commanders commented it would have.

well from that i can only conclude that you truly are from 'optimist', bearing in mind what happened in may 1940.

[ATAG_Snapper]

And there's me thinking the Poles fought to kill Germans when all along it was to preserve the British Empire.

Put yourself in the position of Britain in 1945. Stretched, tired, broke and with an empire in tatters. Then look at what they'd have to face to contest Poland by force.

Betrayal, no. Invasion by an unstoppable force, certainly. There's a whole world of difference between turning your back or just accepting what has happened because the costs of doing something are too high.

I reckon the Soviets could have driven their tanks up Pall Mall quite quickly if they'd wanted to.

+1

My folks (both departed) were married in '42, had two weeks together, then Dad was off to war flying out of England (RAAF) '42 - '45. They next saw each other when Dad was demobbed Fall '45 and he returned to Canada. They both told me that all everyone wanted by that time was for the war to be over. By any means possible. Put Hitler and Tojo out of business and get the troops home ASAP. Period.

Both politicians and (most) military commanders of the day recognized there was no stomach for military adventurism, opportunism, or even consolidation of "liberated" (ie Poland, Balkans, etc) countries. The Allied population -- the voting population -- didn't care about who got what at war's end. They just wanted to have Johnny come walking home again. And any politician that wanted to keep his elected office was fully aware of that. And so was Stalin.

[Wolf_Rider]

lol... those pommies who won't fly "german" because of the war - crikey, do some research on the antics of The British Empire in the Middle East, The British Empire in China, The British Empire in South Africa (Yes, The British Empire established the first "Concentration Camp") and The British Empire in India/ Tibet.

[bisher]

Gotta go with your heart

[ATAG_Snapper]

Gotta go with your heart

Yep.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Gotta go with your heart

;)

And that's all I'm going to say in this thread.

[ATAG_Colander]

Good, we need more red pilots.

[Hood]

lol... those pommies who won't fly "german" because of the war - crikey, do some research on the antics of The British Empire in the Middle East, The British Empire in China, The British Empire in South Africa (Yes, The British Empire established the first "Concentration Camp") and The British Empire in India/ Tibet.

Losing the cricket are we?

Avro's question was addressed to all "sides". What on earth has the British Empire's frolics have to do with not flying an enemy's plane?

Hood

[Flanker35M]

S!

I fly them all. Know your adversary ;)

[Wolf_Rider]

Losing the cricket are we?

Avro's question was addressed to all "sides". What on earth has the British Empire's frolics have to do with not flying an enemy's plane?

Hood

cricket is for batters

[5./JG27.Farber]

Losing the cricket are we?

Avro's question was addressed to all "sides". What on earth has the British Empire's frolics have to do with not flying an enemy's plane?

Hood

So the Germans are still your enemies? :-P

[JG52Krupi]

s!

I fly them all. Know your adversary ;)

Qft :D

[=CfC= Father Ted]

cricket is for batters

...and bowlers and fielders - it wouldn't really work with just batters.

[Hood]

So the Germans are still your enemies? :-P

I'm veering towards thinking you're stupid as well as a fool. Go look at the definition of "enemy" and let me know if any definition says that enemy = German. Then let me know the thought processes that led to your hypothesis.

Maybe you're trolling?

Hood

[Madfish]

No wonder there's still so much whining about "plane performance". I guess for some people there war is still not over.

Not flying german planes... most ... ... ... thing I ever heard. Thanks for the laugh though...

[5./JG27.Farber]

I'm veering towards thinking you're stupid as well as a fool. Go look at the definition of "enemy" and let me know if any definition says that enemy = German. Then let me know the thought processes that led to your hypothesis.

Maybe you're trolling?

Hood

Because you have no made any mention to which aircraft you fly or do not fly and for what reasons if any you are quite right that my statement is incorrect. I apologise. I have made an assuption which is wrong!

However:

A quick look and unless I have missed it you havent commented upon which aircraft you do or do not fly for any reason! You have merely tried to drag down my reputation and insult me.

So therefore, YOU SIR, are in fact "trolling" me. ;)

[Hood]

Because you have no made any mention to which aircraft you fly or do not fly and for what reasons if any you are quite right that my statement is incorrect. I apologise. I have made an assuption which is wrong!

However:

A quick look and unless I have missed it you havent commented upon which aircraft you do or do not fly for any reason! You have merely tried to drag down my reputation and insult me.

So therefore, YOU SIR, are in fact "trolling" me. ;)

See my first post the majority of which was taking issue with your inflammatory ideas. As I said in that post I'm a Brit but I don't have a problem flying the LW planes. I've flown in a LW squad and an RAF squad.

Hood

[swiss]

So you also think that the russian army was the same quality in 45 as 41, lol.

On side note, they weren't worth much without the US supplies.
They'd have to build their own trucks and bombers instead of putting everything into tanks production.... ;)

[Sven]

Yeah they would've had a hard time without those trucks, especially because of their mass use of artillery.

[5./JG27.Farber]

See my first post the majority of which was taking issue with your inflammatory ideas. As I said in that post I'm a Brit but I don't have a problem flying the LW planes. I've flown in a LW squad and an RAF squad.

Hood

Sorry I guess I did in fact miss that! I am not infallable, I am a Human being. So for you flying both is not a problem. Thats good, I actually started off as a Hurricane pilot but was swept up with the 109 and those flying it. So really for me it was fly the 109 and learn or fly the Hurricane on my own. I must admit though though flying the 109 for so long I really cant fly anything as well. :-P

You didnt need to to label me a facist, a nazi, a fool or question my sanity though that was just rude. ;)

Much love,
Farber.

[arthursmedley]

Not entirely untrue.
Hitler wanted a cease-fire treaty with England from the beginning, the basic idea was to work in Africa together(or at least not bother each other). Had WC taken it, you'd still have your colonies today. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn8vp6GsqkA#t=00m43s


As of Summer '43 Hitler tried again to achieve the same with the Western Allies, of course they would only accept an unconditional capitulation, which he had to reject.
(source: rudel, stuka pilot)

I don't understand. Where do some of you guys get this fantasy history from exactly? Please show me some evidence of any offers of a "cease-fire treaty" from "the beginning" or from the summer of '43. I'm not sure what conclusion I'm supposed to be drawing from this youtube clip either. Was the British and German war effort being directed by an army captain and a captured Stuka pilot in the western desert?

@Avro; another class thread! How do you do it?:grin:

[ElAurens]

I fly 'em all, but have my favorites, which usually are not German. I actually prefer to fly Japanese aircraft, go figure.

From what I see from my side of the Atlantic, this thread is yet more proof that the European "Union" is a doomed enterprise.

Now if only the sim would work properly so I could enjoy flying the G.50.

Cheers Gents, and don't beat each other up so much, it's just a game.

[adonys]

none of you ever lived in the east.. the real east, which is at Russia's border, or beyond it.

if you really want to know, ask the finns, ask the poles, ask the letons, and the romanians.. there's no much left from the ask the ukraineans.. and then maybe you'll start to comprehend that the red monster was 10 time worse then the black one.

all the Soviet Unions civil population greeted the german army as a liberation army. try to stop and think about what that means.. and that was only after 20 years of "communism".. then try to imagine what another 50 years like those would do to the rest..

you think you were screwed?!! well, we fought with Germany from the beginning, as no western countries were willing to guarantee our borders or help us if something happened. we fought until Stalingrad, and back. then, in the summer '44 stupid us (but mostly some politicians) tried to salvage the little which could be salvaged, country's territorial integrity, and switched the sides against our hearts, fighting for Allies from then on until the end of the war.

Romania's allied war effort was the third or fourth, after Russia and US and maybe Great Britain, and we shortened the war with at least 6 months.

and what that brought us?

russian army entered the allied Romania as in an occupied country: a tidalwave of killing and destruction and rape. after the war, we were not acknowledged as a co-belligerent party (in our face being accepted as co-belligerents France and Italy and such, even if they did nothing compared with our allied war effort), large chunks of our country were given to Russia and Bulgaria, we were completely abandoned into the hands of russians, the great famine from '46 (as russians took all our food) in which tens of thousands died, our whole industry was dismantled by same russians and taken away, followed by another 45 years in which we had to sell everything almost for free in order to pay them the "war compensations" we "owed" them.

45 years of living in a labor camp! you have not the slightest idea how were those 45 years..

and that's the same for all the other eastern countries. ask poles, which started the war actually, who do they hate more, the reds or the blacks, and you might get a surprise answer from them..

as for flying, this is a game. I do prefer to fly Axis airplanes, as we flew them during the war, but I have no problem flying even russian planes as an Ally, when there's a need for balance. and I have friends from all around the world, which whom I fly with, or against.

a game is just a game, and each and everyone of you should never ever forget that!

[von Brühl]

As for "peace", what does that mean? ... or does it mean making the ultimate sacrifice to protect your country, its people and those that you are allied with?



Hitler did these things, remember, he only attacked those countries which were pre-war German/Austrio-Hungarian, until Germany was in turn attacked by France/England. He was restoring people and lands taken away by Versailles. Poland had been a country for less than 30 years, German for the previous 200. Checkoslavakia had not been a sovereign nation in I don't know how long, if ever. France and England were rightly concerned about their status in Europe if a strong Germany again rose.

The only real country with a legitimate invasion beef against Hitler would be the Soviet Union. The rest is just propaganda...

[=CfC= Father Ted]

Hitler did these things, remember, he only attacked those countries which were pre-war German/Austrio-Hungarian, until Germany was in turn attacked by France/England. He was restoring people and lands taken away by Versailles. Poland had been a country for less than 30 years, German for the previous 200. Checkoslavakia had not been a sovereign nation in I don't know how long, if ever. France and England were rightly concerned about their status in Europe if a strong Germany again rose.

The only real country with a legitimate invasion beef against Hitler would be the Soviet Union. The rest is just propaganda...

Sarcasm, I hope. Otherwise this is some sad, scarily disillusioned stuff. Belgium, Netherlands, Norway? They were German by right?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Sarcasm, I hope. Otherwise this is some sad, scarily disillusioned stuff. Belgium, Netherlands, Norway? They were German by right?

All these years and I never realized that Uncle Adolf was simply a victim of a huge misunderstanding.......:rolleyes:

[Blakduk]

Some of these posts are so scary/funny that it's not clear what the authors motivations are- delusional or trolling.

Hitler was a gangster, the rule of law in Germany was trashed by the Nazis and it spread throughout their corrupt rule of the nations they vanguished. His regime used the genuine grievances of the over-reaching reparation demands of the allied forces at the Treaty of Versailles, together with the misplaced belief among many in the German military that they had been betrayed in WW1, to poisonous ends and created a paranoid mindset among the German population that the rest of the world was against them.
Hitler knew what he was doing and was ruthless in his execution of the operations he undertook to reach his goal, whether it was eliminating real or imagined political enemies as well as his mobilisation of his armed forces for wars of conquest. Goering admitted as much after the war when he described the ease with which they motivated the common folk of the population for war by creating the perception of impending peril.
To fall into a 'Hitler was evil therefore Stalin was good' or vice-versa is naive, they were both murderous despots who caused unbelievable harm to those under their governments.
Eisenhower and Roosevelt judged the mood in the USA was not present for continued war in Europe against the USSR and they still had to defeat the Japanese.
The British were exhausted and bankrupt- their energies were more focused on improving the plight of their families at home than looking for another fight. Things rapidly settled down into the cold war with the nations caught between east and west bearing the worst of the suffering.

I believe perhaps the most telling thing that illustrates the difference in the cultures of the major nations that fought in WW2 was what happened to the leader of Britain. He was voted out in the general election and a Labor government was voted in- no armed coup, no 'night of the long knives', no purges, no house arrest.

By the way, I mostly fly online on the ATAG server and tend to fly red to balance the armies.... plus I'm rubbish in a 109 and can't bomb very well.

[5./JG27.Farber]

I honestly give up. I surrender. This is stupid.

[CWMV]

Wow......

[Robo.]

I honestly give up. I surrender. This is stupid.

Yes it is, mate. Saying that Churchill was to blame for the wat against Germany is like saying that Thatcher was to blame for the war against Argentina.

Declaration of war against the Nazi Germany was a defensive act based on what kind of havoc was going on in the Third Reich from 1933 onwards.

This has nothing to do with what planes anyone prefers in a flight simulator in 2012 but I find some posts here hilarious. Yours No.5 is quality. :o As Blakduk says, I can't believe these opinions are ment seriously. People have got very very very short memory.

[adonys]

In international politics there's a known axioma that any country is following its own national interest (which, sometimes is not really its own, but an internal or even external 3rd private party interest.. read corporate and illegal associations interests actually, presented to the masses in a form which greatly appeal them, in order to get their full support.. and nothing better to fulfill this role than the nationalistic card, the ancestral "it's us or them") and to expect anything else would be simply folly..

sure thing, when right international laws and rights coincide with their own interest, they'll follow it claiming it out loud that they are acting the literal "international laws", but as soon as those laws can not be used to cover their own interests, they won't have second thoughts any moment, and just do what they really want to do, sometimes even claiming that they are actually acting in the "spirit" of the international laws and righteousness..

it was the same in antiquity, and from then on, nothing really changed, not in society or forms of government, not in justice or laws, nor in national or international politics..

now regarding germany.. do you consider the german people as stupid? do you really think they followed Hitler blindly in '39? there was a huge national frustration caused by the way their country was treated after WWI, huge chunks of their country being taken away and being forced to pay immense war compensations, which economically suffocated their country.. what would you do in their place?continue to suffer and be humiliated, down on your knees, or stand up and fight or die for your right to an all sides acceptable solution at least?

without this national widespread grievance, actually induced by the rapacious behavior of the WWI victors which sought a personal solution in their favor rather than a real solution equitable for all involved parts, Hitler would have gained no support, and would have achieved nothing.

you know what the old saying goes.. what you sow is what you reap..

beside this, as we all know, the victory is always written by the victors.. as romans were saying, vae victis.. and they really did knew what they were talking about.. isn't it?!!

there is talking around the internet that actually Poland was behaving aggressively, knowing itself backed up by France and Great Britain (which in turn were actually "supporting" Poland because it fit their ruthless interest, which was to have Germany react and start the war, providing them a splendid casus belli to use it by pushing the nationalistic lever of a "right war" in order to gain the support of their people). Remember the germans claiming that actually polish border guards attacked german border guards? of course, pointed as german propaganda after the war.. but one has to ask himself why actually germany would need to masquerade this, as the following point is a much stonger casus belli for them than this one.. same thing US did to get itself into WWII, by pushing Japan to unacceptable negotiation terms, and when seeing that the japans were stubbornly continuing the negotiations, cutting them completely off by stopping all american petrol exports to Japan, practically putting them to chose between an economic death and war? Not to mention about the rumors about Pearl Harbor, with strong resemblance into Vietnam's casus belli (Gulf of Tonkin incident) and.. 9/11 ?!!

there are also rumors about atrocities and mass executions of german population from the old german territories given to Poland after WWI, presented by the germans with documents and pictures? again pointed out as german propaganda after the war.. but one has to ask himself why most of the german concentration camps were actually placed into.. Poland?!!

and on and on.. german widespread hate against jewish and the talking about the british-jewish WWI pact (jews would help brits win WWI by dragging US along and ruining german economy, in exchange of the british support for creating the Israel state into the heart of the arab territories.. sounds familiar to you?)and in-between wars jewish anti-german economic propaganda, which in turn pumped up german's population hate against the jews and responded by boycotting jewish stores through the whole Germany (again, does it not rings a bell?!!), claims that most of the holocaust actually never happened as actually germans had never had mass execution camps and the pictures of skeletal living or dead bodies were in fact dysentery victims, claims about western allied mass murdering camps (Eisenhower's Death Camps - killing 1.7 million german war prisoners through starvation which were refused PoW status and given the DEF status to get them outside Haga's convention's wing, and the scandal with Patton which bluntly refused to do it, and released at once all the german prisoners his army had, sending them at home), the facts about the eastern post-war slave labor camps from Russia, the inhuman earth-leveling bombardment of german cities and civil population with mass murder weapons (phosphor bombs), the Nurenberg farce trial (see Donitz case in which, despite all their efforts, they couldn't sentence him to death for crimes against the humanity due to the Germany's submarine war, as even allied high ranked commanders as Chester Nimitz testified against it and in Doenitz'es favor) this, etc., etc.

of course, all denied, unrecognized and pointed out as german propaganda after the war.. as I've said before, the history is written by the victors, but yet.. in the XXIst century is a little bit harder to hide the truth and cover all the traces than it was before..

it might be just propaganda as allies are claiming .. and again, it might not, and be just post-war victors' propaganda.. as most of the times, the truth might even actually be somewhere in-between (oh, the gray shades of life).. we have not lived those times, so we have to dig up the truth from all the evidence we can get our hands on, and be able to use our logic to discern between words and facts.. just like when studying ancient history or.. a legal case :)

a sane mind has always to wonder, and look everywhere and listen to everything in its pursue of the knowledge of truth..

qui prodest?!!

[Wolf_Rider]

~ but a sane mind has always to wonder, and look everywhere and listen to everything in its pursue of the knowledge of truth..




too bad your sig doesn't reflect that thought though....

[adonys]

really?!! and on which facts are you supporting your above statement, please?

[Wolf_Rider]

the fact of your sig ;)



i7 2600K | GA-P67A-UD4-B3 | GeForce GTX 680 OC 2GB | 2233RZ 3D Gaming LCD | X-Fi Fatal1ty | 4x4 GB DDR3 1866 MHz | Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit | TrackIR4 & TrackClip Pro | Warthog | SWFF2 | Pro Flight Rudder Pedals | Nvidia 3D vision
ignore list: ACE-OF-ACES, David Hayward, carguy_, robtek, Wolf_Rider, ellonet, jayrc, Vengeanze, scotchegg, Dano, AndyJWest, Vevster. who's next, please?




go figure....

[adonys]

assuming my computer's hardware can not have anything to do with this, I thought it must be about my ignore list.. and you've just confirmed it..

but..

are you saying this because you are in it, and you think you do not deserve to be in it, or because I do have an Ignore list at all?

and let me tell you right from the start, as you've just saw, I do still check those persons' posts and read them when they do deserve to be read. I just think 10 times before answering them, because I do not want to be dragged down in flame wars.

and let me tell you another fact, those persons are in there not because they do not share my believes and thoughts, but because they prove to not be reasonable persons with which you can have a mature argument. that's all, and hence their presence in that list.

it is not me who put them in there, but their own actions!

[Wolf_Rider]

Actually it was quite clear in the place... no mistaking it, but, I suppose that what happens when one chooses to ignore, eh


oh, I think you mean debate not argument, no argument is mature - that's what starts wars in the first place, that being a lack of reasoned ability to see all sides equally


and if you are going to "check" doesn't that preclude the use of an "ignore list" in the first place and is what you have listed in your sig really necessary? It seem like a really childish item to have in a sig... something else which also starts wars, that being childishness (so now you edit your "list") and it was actually you who put them there (see my second point)

[MadBlaster]

lol. "additional voices" ftw.:-P

[Wolf_Rider]

lol +1

[adonys]

Actually it was quite clear in the place... no mistaking it, but, I suppose that what happens when one chooses to ignore, eh


oh, I think you mean debate not argument, no argument is mature - that's what starts wars in the first place, that being a lack of reasoned ability to see all sides equally


and if you are going to "check" doesn't that preclude the use of an "ignore list" in the first place and is what you have listed in your sig really necessary? It seem like a really childish item to have in a sig... something else which also starts wars, that being childishness (so now you edit your "list") and it was actually you who put them there (see my second point)

yes, I meant debate, sorry, I'm not a native english speaker, and I've learnt it all by my own ear (I've studied russian and german in highschool).

and no, it actually help me prevent wars by discouraging aggression from a party who sees it in my signature, and thinks I can not see his replays to my posts, therefore drops the matter dead.

it's called psychological warfare :)

and well, your post just convinced me have another look at the famous list: split it in two accordingly with the actions which got them in there in the first place, and reconsidering some from the chorus by checking their latest posts in this forum.

PS: btw, your place still remains at the head of the additional voices, and it's only your position expressed in this thread (regarding WWII involved parties real actions) which prevents you to be promoted to stardom (due to your whine-bashing posts).. yet :)

[Wolf_Rider]

and no, it actually help me prevent wars by discouraging aggression from a party who sees it in my signature, and thinks I can not see his replays to my posts, therefore drops the matter dead.

it's called psychological warfare :)



but there is no need for warfare of any kind, this is a forum... and your errm, ploy, doesn't work because people now know you check - enjoy



~ and let me tell you right from the start, as you've just saw, I do still check those persons' posts ~

[adonys]

nah, I don't really think they'll see these few posts in here :)

[5./JG27.Farber]

oh, I think you mean debate not argument...


Debate and argument mean the same thing... ;)

[SEE]

I fly whatever I fancy but on a lighter note.....

My mother fought with the Greek resistance and my dad was in the Eighth Army under Montgomery in North Africa. During the invasion of Italy my dads unit were shipped to Greece to help re-instate the Greek Monarchy and quell the communist movement - my mother then fought with the communists once the Germans withdrew from Greece though she was more anti Royalist than a communist.

I asked my dad how he met my mum and he told me she chatted him up. Unfortunately for my dad, she was setting him up as he was on guard duty and a bunch of Greek partisans nicked trucks, arms and munitions while distracted - he was court martialled as a result......but hey, they got together anyway, married, had me.....and my brother.

So whatever the politics......I owe my very existence to them......:grin:

[Wolf_Rider]

nah, I don't really think they'll see these few posts in here :)

errrr, its you doing (trying but not succeeding) the "ignoring" thing though, not them...


no they don't Farber... ;)

[5./JG27.Farber]

Awesome storey See, its like something out of a movie.

:-P

[raaaid]

youre like a dentist taking the hipocratic swearing :)

[MB_Avro_UK]

As I'm the OP, may I add the following?

England and Germany have been linked by culture and Royalty long before WW2.

My issue with flying German aircraft over England has nothing to do with Germany. If the aircraft instead of being German had been French, Swiss or Dutch, I would have had the same concerns.

Its the concept of 'flying' an enemy aircraft over your home town that concerns me.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[Feathered_IV]

Maybe you just feel the greater sense of immersion flying for your own country over your own soil. So much so that flying for the opposition does not compare.

[ATAG_Dutch]

England and Germany have been linked by culture and Royalty long before WW2.

The Worst mistake this country ever made was the 'entente cordiale' if you ask me. (Sorry, sorry... said I wouldn't post again in this thread, but erm...:lol:.)

After Waterloo, you'd've thought that Britain and Germany would've remained staunch allies in Europe. If they had've, things could have been so, so different.....;)

But of course, if my Auntie had a pair, she'd be my uncle.

[Richie]

I look at it this way. It's all the governments fault we get into these wars not the soldiers who fight them. When I or you are flying over each others towns bombing them we are doing it because our governments have told us to do it. Are fighter pilots going to keep sitting at the card table play gin or scat while bombs are raining down day and night on their towns.....no. There's nothing immoral about that it's the idiots that let the killing go on and on and on. Another thing I always have in the back of my mind is my best friend's mother I could be fighting for her lol

[Wolf_Rider]

Its the concept of 'flying' an enemy aircraft over your home town that concerns me.



You shouild look up some of Kitchener's antics, especially around the time of the boer wars

[CaptainDoggles]

As I'm the OP, may I add the following?

England and Germany have been linked by culture and Royalty long before WW2.

My issue with flying German aircraft over England has nothing to do with Germany. If the aircraft instead of being German had been French, Swiss or Dutch, I would have had the same concerns.

Its the concept of 'flying' an enemy aircraft over your home town that concerns me.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

This saddens me. You're basically missing half the game.

[Richie]

As I'm the OP, may I add the following?

England and Germany have been linked by culture and Royalty long before WW2.

My issue with flying German aircraft over England has nothing to do with Germany. If the aircraft instead of being German had been French, Swiss or Dutch, I would have had the same concerns.

Its the concept of 'flying' an enemy aircraft over your home town that concerns me.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.


Would you be a little more at ease say in North Africa? I can see your point if you're in England though. Being Canadian I didn't have 109s or Ju-88s flying over my town 72 years ago. I did have a Dad who was over seas though for three years. He was the one that got me hooked on 109s. Funny how things go.

[Hood]

You shouild look up some of Kitchener's antics, especially around the time of the boer wars

What you really mean to say is - Britain is bad because they created concentration camps. Look how nasty they are. I quite agree, they're nasty and evil and the lesson hasn't been learned by lots of other nations. No doubt you're currently saving up to buy the aborigines a bit of desert as recompense for your ancestor's actions.

I'm struggling to see what that has to do with Avro's original post or follow up comment though.

Pure troll as I see it, that or an inveterate (or should that be invertebrate) Brit hater.

Hood

[Wolf_Rider]

~ No doubt you're currently saving up to buy the aborigines a bit of desert as recompense for your ancestor's actions.



Actually, those actions were from the British as well... thanks for the reminder




I'm struggling to see what that has to do with Avro's original post or follow up comment though.



Just a bit of a "come back to Earth" reminder that the "homeland" isn't as innocent as those flyers who won't fly another nation's plane over it seem to believe.

[chantaje]

the politicians of yesterday and today are the real "nazis" (old men start wars etc. )
nobody hate the average us citizen couse bush and his generals are mass murderers- the same with any other nation.

the only options 99% of people have are do it or starve, be executed for trason and so on.
to end my little post its just a game (the sim)

[Crumpp]

Thanks for the laughs!!

:grin:

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

What you really mean to say is - Britain is bad because they created concentration camps. Look how nasty they are. I quite agree, they're nasty and evil and the lesson hasn't been learned by lots of other nations. No doubt you're currently saving up to buy the aborigines a bit of desert as recompense for your ancestor's actions.

I'm struggling to see what that has to do with Avro's original post or follow up comment though.

Pure troll as I see it, that or an inveterate (or should that be invertebrate) Brit hater.

Hood

No doubt you're currently saving up to buy the aborigines a bit of desert as recompense for your ancestor's actions.

Nah, he's probably too busy denying Asylum seekers basic human rights and inflicting terrible abuse to people who have committed no crime whatsoever in Oz 'concentration camps' like the modern day 'Christmas Island', for example!

I think the 'Moral relativists' here have to re-examine their Morality, and think again. As to the "The British created Concentration camps" baloney.......Lets put that record straight. A concentration camp is by definition a concentration of persons.....usually by forcible internment. What the tents in South Africa were very much not however, were part of a very deliberate and calculated, perverse, wicked mission to exterminate, permanently, with no remorse vast swathes of the Human race who did not conform to some twisted "Ideal".


Ridiculous. As to Farber, Adonys etc......Jesus Christ. Some people are so apocalyptically effin stupid it is untrue. Since when (in A-holes case) was borderline Holocaust Denial deemed acceptable on this forum? Are you kidding me? In farbers case in particular, I am personally ashamed to call delusional imbeciles like this my fellow countrymen. They are as far as I am concerned* p*ssing on the graves of those who nobly kept them free, so that they can continue their preposterous, ludicrous rants. I bet they are so proud to be British! Aye, sure sounds* like it. Anyone who espouses or condones this outrageous twaddle is no true Briton, nor friend of mine. Out of here before I lose me temper. Again. ;)

[Wolf_Rider]

I think the 'Moral relativists' here have to re-examine their Morality, and think again. As to the "The British created Concentration camps" baloney.......Lets put that record straight. A concentration camp is by definition a concentration of persons.....usually by forcible internment. What the tents in South Africa were [B]very much not however, were part of a very deliberate and calculated, perverse, wicked mission to exterminate, permanently, with no remorse vast swathes of the Human race who did not conform to some twisted "Ideal".




http://grapeinvestor.com/BoerWar/camps.html

The English term "concentration camp" was first used to describe camps operated by the British in South Africa during this conflict.
The camps had originally been set up by the British Army as "refugee camps" to provide refuge for civilian families who had been forced to abandon their homes for one or other reason related to the war. However, when Kitchener succeeded Roberts as commander-in-chief in South Africa in 29 November 1900, the British Army introduced new tactics in an attempt to break the guerrilla campaign and the influx of civilians grew dramatically as a result. Kitchener initiated plans to "flush out guerrillas in a series of systematic drives, organized like a sporting shoot, with success defined in a weekly 'bag' of killed, captured and wounded, and to sweep the country bare of everything that could give sustenance to the guerrillas, including women and children.... It was the clearance of civilians - uprooting a whole nation - that would come to dominate the last phase of the war."

As Boer farms were destroyed by the British under their "Scorched Earth" policy - including the systematic destruction of crops and slaughtering of livestock, the burning down of homesteads and farms, and the poisoning of wells and salting of fields - to prevent the Boers from resupplying from a home base many tens of thousands of women and children were forcibly moved into the concentration camps. This was not the first appearance of internment camps. The Spanish had used internment in the Ten Years' War that later led to the Spanish-American War, and the United States had used them to devastate guerrilla forces during the Philippine-American War. But the Boer War concentration camp system was the first time that a whole nation had been systematically targeted, and the first in which some whole regions had been depopulated.

Eventually, there were a total of 45 tented camps built for Boer internees and 64 for black Africans. Of the 28,000 Boer men captured as prisoners of war, 25,630 were sent overseas. The vast majority of Boers remaining in the local camps were women and children. Over 26,000 women and children were to perish in these concentration camps.

[Al Schlageter]

The Germans used concentration camps in German South-West Africa during the Herero genocide between 1904 and 1907. The camp at Shark Island, Namibia was of the nature of an extermination camp, arguably the world's first.

The Herero and Namaqua Genocide is considered to have been the first genocide of the 20th century. It took place between 1904 and 1907 in German South-West Africa (modern day Namibia), during the scramble for Africa.

On January 12, 1904, the Herero people, led by Samuel Maharero, rebelled against German colonial rule. In August, German general Lothar von Trotha defeated the Herero in the Battle of Waterberg and drove them into the desert of Omaheke, where most of them died of thirst. In October, the Nama people also rebelled against the Germans only to suffer a similar fate.

In total, from 24,000 up to 100,000 Herero and 10,000 Nama died. The genocide was characterized by widespread death by starvation and thirst because the Herero who fled the violence were prevented from returning from the Namib Desert. Some sources also claim that the German colonial army systematically poisoned desert wells.

In 1985, the United Nations' Whitaker Report classified the aftermath as an attempt to exterminate the Herero and Nama peoples of South-West Africa, and therefore one of the earliest attempts at genocide in the 20th century. The German government recognized and apologized for the events in 2004, but has ruled out financial compensation for the victims' descendants.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Thank you Al. I have raised these points before. Other "Inconvenient subjects" for the apologists are the German Policy of "Total War", and the Zeppelin and Gotha TERROR RAIDS of WWI, burning hundreds of British Women and Children alive with incendiary devices. Terribly rum bunch, these Huns.

Little wonder, then, that the British Public have little to no sympathy for what ensued.

I stand with Harris (an RFC Fighter Ace, one whom can hardly be accused of cowardice). Harris was particularly moved as he surveyed the devastation wrought by Gotha and Zeppelin Bombers on the City of London in 1917-18. They bombed people indiscriminately, including my own Tyneside, Sunderland, and even Edinburgh and Glasgow too.

Do we see a "pattern" emerging, here....or is it just me?

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind" .

You kill 1000 of our Women and Children, we will do our utmost to kill 10 thousand of our Enemy. All is fair, in love and War. Hard lines.

No sympathy. None. Zilch. Nada. Cry me a river.

End of story.

[Bewolf]

Thank you Al. I have raised these points before. Other "Inconvenient subjects" for the apologists are the German Policy of "Total War", and the Zeppelin and Gotha TERROR RAIDS of WWI, burning hundreds of British Women and Children alive with incendiary devices. Terribly rum bunch, these Huns.

Little wonder, then, that the British Public have little to no sympathy for what ensued.

I stand with Harris (an RFC Fighter Ace, one whom can hardly be accused of cowardice). Harris was particularly moved as he surveyed the devastation wrought by Gotha and Zeppelin Bombers on the City of London in 1917-18. They bombed people indiscriminately, including my own Tyneside, Sunderland, and even Edinburgh and Glasgow too.

Do we see a "pattern" emerging, here....or is it just me?

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind" .

You kill 1000 of our Women and Children, we will do our utmost to kill 10 thousand of our Enemy. All is fair, in love and War. Hard lines.

No sympathy. None. Zilch. Nada. Cry me a river.

End of story.

The difference is, Germany errects memorials for the victims, you guys errect memorials for the perpetrators. And this post of yours is the perfect example of the mindset behind that.
Better hope other ppl have moved on, as that quote of yours about "sowing the wind" fits to quite a few situations of a certain wholier then you country.

[kammo]

I refuse to cuddle with WW2 WAAF hottie. Why?

Cause dem gals just too damn old but if I can hook up with current WAAF hottie I mos def would.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

The difference is, Germany errects memorials for the victims, you guys errect memorials for the perpetrators.

LMAO...."the perpetrators"..........In Denial.....Much?

Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth.......


Never mind.

[Kurfürst]

You kill 1000 of our Women and Children, we will do our utmost to kill 10 thousand of our Enemy. All is fair, in love and War. Hard lines.

No sympathy. None. Zilch. Nada. Cry me a river.

End of story.

I would say its quite typical of the British mindset that they developed in their colonial wars. They thought themselves to be superior to anyone else, but when their arrogance fails against a superior military force on the battlefield, they tried terror on the enemy population.

Harris tried exactly that - and he failed. What he DID achieve is getting the best educated younger British men killed and drive his country bancrupt with the staggering costs of Bomber Command's ultimately ineffectual terror offensive.

[Hood]

The difference is, Germany errects memorials for the victims, you guys errect memorials for the perpetrators. And this post of yours is the perfect example of the mindset behind that.
Better hope other ppl have moved on, as that quote of yours about "sowing the wind" fits to quite a few situations of a certain wholier then you country.

LOL. Most countries erect memorials commemorating successes in war or battle. A lot of countries erect memorials for the memory of those that have died in battle. In the UK there are lots of memorials commerating the civilian dead though they're not so prevalent.

The most famous victim memorial is probably the Holocaust memorial in Berlin and there's a reason for it being there. Personally I don't think it should be there as it rubs the noses of German peoples in their country's less than pleasant history, and that can't be right. I do however believe there should be such a memorial somewhere.

Reap what you sow seems about right to me.

Hood

[fruitbat]

They thought themselves to be superior to anyone else, but when their arrogance fails against a superior military force on the battlefield, they tried terror on the enemy population.



As opposed to the Nazis who did the terror thing right from the off, lol.

@ Avro, you are the master!!!!!!

[Hood]

As opposed to the Nazis who did the terror thing right from the off, lol.


Now I thought that Kurfurst was Hungarian? Not sure why I think that but there you go.

Anyone he's just baiting with such nonseniscal arguments. Nothing to back it up and he's just regurgitating arguments learnt by rote.

Ignore it.

Hood

[fruitbat]

Now I thought that Kurfurst was Hungarian? Not sure why I think that but there you go.

Anyone he's just baiting with such nonseniscal arguments. Nothing to back it up and he's just regurgitating arguments learnt by rote.

Ignore it.

Hood

yes he is, but i wasn't calling him a Nazi, merely commenting on the Nazis;)

[Hood]

Actually, those actions were from the British as well... thanks for the reminder




Just a bit of a "come back to Earth" reminder that the "homeland" isn't as innocent as those flyers who won't fly another nation's plane over it seem to believe.


Of course they were. It must really hurt that you're descended from British settlers. I think you should give up everything you have to the aborigines to assuage some of the guilt you must feel.

I'm not sure what is meant by the second sentence as there has not been any discussion about the rights and wrongs of a country, only that some find it difficult to fly the enemy's aircraft over the game's depiction of their homeland, whether thats a 109 over London, a Spitfire over Berlin or a Zero over Sydney.

Nice attempt to hijack the thread to post your rather skewed ideas though.

Hood

[Varrattu]

Thank You 1c for the ignore list ... now I know what it is good for!

[MadBlaster]

reality check. none of the planes are german. everything in the game is russian. made by russian "programmers" that work for a russian software company. if you "kill" a pilot, he's russian and his name is luthier. if you "bomb" a town, it's ubisoft or steam headquarters somewhere in russia. if you meet up with a disconnect pilot online, his name is oleg. if you see a total newbie online, his name is bee-sex. if you see some white beeeaches, that's where the E3 russian babes hang out, with the game's beancounters and investors, drinking chivas regal all day long wondering where their $8 millions dollars went. so fly low and think of what could have been. i mean, you are an investor too! you paid for the game. probably also had to pay to upgrade your computer to make it "workable". now, do you want to get your monies worth out of it? or do you want the russians to steal it from you? or is "london, england (not european)" more important. he he. no euro cooties for you. lol. really, ever since invention of modern day transportation, its been worldwide socialist orgy-fest. the internet, making the party all the bigger. the lowest common denominator in play and can't be stopped. we all going down the toilet like clod. you know the song. "diarrhea...people think it's funny, but it's really hot and runny...etc.” that's the world now. turd soup. same as clod. yum, yum, can I have another? sure. hear’s some bom for you. tell me now you still feel guilty after getting pooped on.:rolleyes:

[Wolf_Rider]

Nice attempt to hijack the thread to post your rather skewed ideas though.

Hood

you've given that a real good go yourself ;)

[mazex]

Amazingly I read all of the posts in this thread...

I was on a conference where Jan Eliasson spoke some month ago (the newly assigned Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations). He said a lot of interesting stuff but what stuck was that he talked about the fact that every war that has started in history started with people misunderstanding each other - and not listening to the other side... :)

This thread is a good example...

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

I understand them perfectly well. They, however, do not understand us.

Dishonour not your Mothers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRj01LShXN8&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikynTH9oJg8

They bore me. Whether they like it or not, is quite irrelevant. There will ALWAYS be an England.....

D-.....Must try harder.

:D

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

I would say its quite typical of the British mindset that they developed in their colonial wars. They thought themselves to be superior to anyone else, but when their arrogance fails against a superior military force on the battlefield, they tried terror on the enemy population.

Harris tried exactly that - and he failed. What he DID achieve is getting the best educated younger British men killed and drive his country bancrupt with the staggering costs of Bomber Command's ultimately ineffectual terror offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ab7F1FQrtA

[5./JG27.Farber]

Amazingly I read all of the posts in this thread...

I was on a conference where Jan Eliasson spoke some month ago (the newly assigned Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations). He said a lot of interesting stuff but what stuck was that he talked about the fact that every war that has started in history started with people misunderstanding each other - and not listening to the other side... :)

This thread is a good example...

Words of wisdom.

[bongodriver]

It could all have been so simple, Hitler could have annexed the parts of Europe he wanted, the French could have had a humiliation and Hitlers Empire would have been a Jew/Pole/non aryan/other ethnic groups/mentally ill/disabled/other phisically challenged persons free eutopia, we all know he would have stopped there and tried to live in peace with his reluctant neighbours, but 'oh no!' those blood thirsty Brits just couldn't see it his way, we just couldn't make time to listen to him.

[arthursmedley]

Amazingly I read all of the posts in this thread...

I was on a conference where Jan Eliasson spoke some month ago (the newly assigned Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations). He said a lot of interesting stuff but what stuck was that he talked about the fact that every war that has started in history started with people misunderstanding each other - and not listening to the other side... :)

This thread is a good example...

Er.....just off the top of my head, North Korea invading South Korea in 1950, Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1940, the German invasion of Norway, Denmark and Holland in the same year, the Italian invasion of Abyssinia in '36. There didn't seem to be any evidence of misunderstanding or confusion, they were straight acts of deliberate armed aggression.
However, I'm now confused. Is this a thread about how people think when they play games or is this a thread about the origin's of the second world war?

[5./JG27.Farber]

It could all have been so simple, Hitler could have annexed the parts of Europe he wanted, the French could have had a humiliation and Hitlers Empire would have been a Jew/Pole/non aryan/other ethnic groups/mentally ill/disabled/other phisically challenged persons free eutopia, we all know he would have stopped there and tried to live in peace with his reluctant neighbours, but 'oh no!' those blood thirsty Brits just couldn't see it his way, we just couldn't make time to listen to him.

Haha! :-P

Just for the record please remember I did say Germany's invasion of Poland to regain its land there was over the top!

Tin hat on - check!

Ok so what about American which went to war against its constitution?

[arthursmedley]

Haha! :-P



Tin hat on - check!

Ok so what about American which went to war against its constitution?

It did? When was this then?

[RedToo]

Hi all,

I regard myself as educated. I have a good university degree, I went to what is regarded as a 'good' school and I enjoy all periods and aspects of history. I value reasoned and at times unreasoned debate!

As regards Cliffs of Dover, I cannot bring myself to 'fly' German aircraft. I used to fly German aircraft in il2 1946 against Russian aircraft online without a problem. Maybe this was a Cold War hang-over??

Perhaps the problem is caused by an 'enemy' attacking my home?? Yes, I realise that it's not real and it all comprises digital ones and noughts etc. But overflying Dover, Brighton and Manston with such good maps does bring it home to me.

How would our German members here feel about an RAF Bomber Command and US 8th bomber assault on their country as a simulator? Would a few German members fly Lancasters and B-17s?

What are the opinions of today's Neutrals?

And as I have mentioned in a previous thread, this post is in no way a condemnation of today's Germany. Germany is my second home. Britain and Germany lost their way in 1914 because of politicians and again in 1939. And our beer tastes the same:) And we have the same Royal Family:)

And many of us have similar DNA:)

How's the Euro at the moment:cool:



Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Interesting Avro, and I have to say as regards a thread starter, you've done it again. :)

RedToo.

[GBrutus]

Thank you Al. I have raised these points before. Other "Inconvenient subjects" for the apologists are the German Policy of "Total War", and the Zeppelin and Gotha TERROR RAIDS of WWI, burning hundreds of British Women and Children alive with incendiary devices. Terribly rum bunch, these Huns.

Little wonder, then, that the British Public have little to no sympathy for what ensued.

I stand with Harris (an RFC Fighter Ace, one whom can hardly be accused of cowardice). Harris was particularly moved as he surveyed the devastation wrought by Gotha and Zeppelin Bombers on the City of London in 1917-18. They bombed people indiscriminately, including my own Tyneside, Sunderland, and even Edinburgh and Glasgow too.

Do we see a "pattern" emerging, here....or is it just me?

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind" .

You kill 1000 of our Women and Children, we will do our utmost to kill 10 thousand of our Enemy. All is fair, in love and War. Hard lines.

No sympathy. None. Zilch. Nada. Cry me a river.

End of story.

Seriously, Orville, this just makes you come across as a total tw@t. At least Avro was just (mostly) having a laugh. 'Cry me a river'? You're talking about women and children for Christ's sake.

[MB_Avro_UK]

Interesting Avro, and I have to say as regards a thread starter, you've done it again. :)

RedToo.

Yes and no. Or both;)

As the OP, I'm exploring how computer simulations are perceived by players. Who and what do we identify with? And why? Are our emotions,experiences and desires reflected within this medium?

It may amaze some of you, but I am human. Yes, my mother was a Cyborg, but time and medical science have moved on. It is time to forget our past mistakes and rejoice as one.

How is the Euro at the moment?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[MB_Avro_UK]

I would say its quite typical of the British mindset that they developed in their colonial wars. They thought themselves to be superior to anyone else, but when their arrogance fails against a superior military force on the battlefield, they tried terror on the enemy population.

Harris tried exactly that - and he failed. What he DID achieve is getting the best educated younger British men killed and drive his country bancrupt with the staggering costs of Bomber Command's ultimately ineffectual terror offensive.

I agree in part. Yes, the best educated young men were killed, and all were volunteers. And yes, WW2 bankrupted Britain. Maybe BC's campaign was not as effective as expected. But how is effectiveness measured in this context?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[pencon]

The way I see it , this is a fighter plane simulator , not a politics simulator . Pilots back then were pilots , not politicians . Either side's pilots had to do as they were told . Period . That was then .This is now . Lighten up already .Some would call this a video game . Don't get all effed up about it .And yes, I prefer to fly the 109 .Why ? Looks meaner and has waaay better fire power . Also love the camo schemes and the whole cigar shape themed fuselage .Just waiting for my fave the FW190 to come out in the next version .Something about allied planes just bores the crap out of me although I do agree with what they stood for ..Perhaps it's the pea shooter guns .

[arthursmedley]

When I was a kid I made Airfix models and hung them from my bedroom ceiling and thought wouldn't it be cool if they could really fly? Well now they do from the comfort of my own living room on my PC. What a blast!
Do I make any connection with all these neat little pixels to a historical reality? Not at all.
The only thing thats made me think about that reality is seeing a burning aircraft in Rise of Flight 'cause that looks really nasty!

Just waiting for my fave the FW190 to come out in the next version .

+1. Mmmmmmm...it may take five, six or seven years but looking forward to taking a 190 up against P47's on the ATAG server on a Normandy map one day.

[5./JG27.Farber]

When I was a kid I made Airfix models and hung them from my bedroom ceiling and thought wouldn't it be cool if they could really fly? Well now they do from the comfort of my own living room on my PC. What a blast!

I used to make them too! Cut them carefully from the sprues and clean off the flash. Do my up most best to get the glue right and paint them properly with no brush marks. Carefully apply the decals and then admire them. Then when it was a nice day I would take them outside and shoot them to pieces with my air rifle. Awww those were the days! :-P

[arthursmedley]

I used to make them too! Cut them carefully from the sprues and clean off the flash. Do my up most best to get the glue right and paint them properly with no brush marks. Carefully apply the decals and then admire them. Then when it was a nice day I would take them outside and shoot them to pieces with my air rifle. Awww those were the days! :-P

I think the crisis came around the age of twelve/thirteen. The girl next door was becoming more interesting than airplane glue. My eldest brother came home on leave with some thunderflashes and a warped sense of humour.
I came home from school to find him and my other brothers "re-enacting" the BoB by running the clothes line from my bedroom window and with the aid of bent coat hangers and the contents of a few thunderflashes my airforce were flaming down the garden. Bastards! Lol.:-)

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Seriously, Orville, this just makes you come across as a total tw@t. At least Avro was just (mostly) having a laugh. 'Cry me a river'? You're talking about women and children for Christ's sake.

Well, that is your opinion Brutus, which you are of course entitled to. Now have a long, hard think about WHY and how you are allowed to have this opinion. Hint maybe it had something to do with those who had more balls than you will EVER have, doing something about it.

I am sick and tired of reading this bleeding heart "Oh....the Poor Germans" type rubbish. How much "mercy" do you think would have be extended by Herr Hitler, and his grisly gang of thugs....If they had the means to Annihilate each and every British person on the planet? How long do you think that he would have debated the "morality" of such an action?

Sometimes, as horrible as this may sound.....one must fight fire, with fire. You ask someone from Coventry, for example.....how much "sympathy" they have for what happened. The prevalent mood in Britain was indeed one of vengeance, and I for one do not cry about those who would not even give me a second thought....whilst on their Merry Jaunt of Teutonic World Domination.

Bottom line is...The scourge of German Militarism is no more. I think they "got the idea" of why they cannot conduct themselves in such a way....Not by limp wristed apologia, but by extreme violence. Sad, but true.

You have sympathy for the Devil. I do not. Fair enough. Carry on. :grin:

[arthursmedley]

Whatever Orville:rolleyes: He's right though. You do come across as a tw@t when you post this kinda stuff.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Whatever Orville:rolleyes: He's right though. You do come across as a tw@t when you post this kinda stuff.

Whatever, arthur. I am glad that my home land was defended by LIONS Circa 1939-45.

It would be great to hear the opinions of all the bleeding Heart WEAKLINGS on this forum when Nazism became reality, and their savage dream was fulfilled.

Oh........wait. You would not be allowed an opinion. Think about it.

Aye.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I dunno Arthur, I find Orville's posts a refreshing change from those of people who think national pride is some sort of crime.

Of course it doesn't help when dubious political parties are allowed to use the national flag as some sort of party political marketing tool, but this year in particular is as good a time as any to reinject some pride in our nation that the war years brought out in people to such good effect, and which has been sorely lacking for a good number of years.

As for computer games, yes it's daft from one perspective, but you won't see me flying anything but RAF planes in Cliffs of Dover. ;)

[pencon]

Well orville , what do you think the victims of British expansionism thought of the way they were slaughtered way back in the day . Or Blacks in the US way back when ? My point , most countries were guilty of some sort of atrocity back in history .What the Germans did under hitler was gruesome and atrocious .One more thing , the Russians were even worse .If you buy BoM will you refuse to fly Russian fighters ?

[swiss]

....If they had the means to Annihilate each and every British person on the planet? How long do you think that he would have debated the "morality" of such an action?

A lot actually.
The Brits the Americans [and even the French-Canadians;)] were considered Westerners, Arian - it would have been pointless to get rid of them them, unless they were Jewish of course.

The funny thing is, your definition of devil not only includes Hitler&co, but every German citizen as well.
Makes you sound pretty smart and superior compared to those guys.
Different flavor, same contents.

You would not be allowed an opinion. Think about it.

For a time, maybe.
On the other hand, Europeans have showed a talent in the past to get rid of unwanted Kings and governments. :cool:
I'm not sure what makes you think the historical outcome turned the planet into a better place - we simply don't know.

[winny]

A lot actually.
The Brits the Americans [and even the French-Canadians;)] were considered Westerners, Arian - it would have been pointless to get rid of them them, unless they were Jewish of course....


I'm not sure what makes you think the historical outcome turned the planet into a better place - we simply don't know.


Seriously? Are you saying that the fall of the 3rd Reich didn't have a positive effect? We do know that the 'historical outcome' had an immediate positive effect. The war ended, or is that a bad thing? It certainly turned the world into a better place in 1945.

You might think getting rid of the British and Americans was 'pointless', Hitler didn't. He intended to remove most of the male population in the UK.

On the wider point it seems that it's easy to criticise the UK for air raids.

Sadly that's what it took to get Germany to finally surrender, to blame the British for fighting back in the exact same way as they were attacked seems unfair.

In 1939 the German army was firing 30,000 shells a day into Warsaw. What's the difference between that and dropping bombs on a city? They also continuously attacked the city from the air. That set the tone for WW2.


In the grand scheme of things the German civilians got off a lot lighter than allied civilians. Hitler had no regard for his own people, the only way the air offensive could have been stopped was for Germany to surrender. It had become a machine designed to destroy Germany, nobody on the allied side was ever going to stop the air raids, they had the planes, they had the bombs... What else were they going to do? Sadly for the German people Hitler thought more about his ego than he did his people.

Don't think for a second that if Germany had the Bomber force that the allies had that they wouldn't have done the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, there was no glory in Dresden or Hamburg, but that was where the world was at. To judge it using today's standards, the whole bloody thing was wrong.

It was then though, not now. That's what it took, that's what happened. I hate to say 'they started it' because it sounds childish, but there's a fundamental truth to it to. For a nation to attack so many countries and for it to then try to make people feel guilty about attacking it back dosn't wash with me.

None of the sides involved showed much regard for civilian deaths, yet it's used as a stick to beat the British with, time and time again. Everybody was doing it.

If you don't want dead civilians then don't start wars, because in the age of high explosives it's always the civilians who die.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Sadly that's what it took to get Germany to finally surrender, to blame the British for fighting back in the exact same way as they were attacked seems unfair.

Great post Winny, but before someone jumps on the above statement I'd like to add two points -

1) The bombing campaign itself was conducted by both Britain and America, but people continue to believe the American propaganda of 'precision bombing', which was there only to placate the Germanic and Italian American voters at home and is still widely espoused today.

2) The bombing campaign didn't bring about a surrender, but had the finances and resources earmarked for the invasion of Europe been handed over to the American bomber forces and Bomber Command, this would've been the case, as Speer himself stated in the past.

Unfortunately, what Arthur Harris failed to realise (having read his book) was that the invasion of Fortress Europe was entirely necessary in order to put Western Allied troops on the ground in Europe. Otherwise there was a potential for Stalin to march right on to the channel coast and down through Italy himself. Harris was commited to forcing Germany to surrender by using the Bomber force, and may have managed this given the resources, but seems not to have seen the potential further consequences of this. All he was concerned with was saving the lives of the Allied soldiers sent to invade by rendering an invasion unnecessary. Hence the 'bones of a British Grenadier' statement.

Alternatively, Harris may have been fully aware of this but foresaw a potential return to the horrors of 'Trench warfare' of 14-18, whether initially against Germany, but also subsequently against Russia. Maybe he was afraid of the cold war warming up a few degrees, and the existence of an unstoppable Bomber force would be enough to dissuade Stalin from further terratorial gains.

But again, if my Auntie had........;)

[Kurfürst]

Sadly that's what it took to get Germany to finally surrender, to blame the British for fighting back in the exact same way as they were attacked seems unfair.

Uhm, it was Britain who did declare war on Germany, refused German peace offers during the war (several times in fact), and it was Britain who started bombing German cities.

To put it like the poor British were 'forced' to fight back against an agression is pure BS.

They had a choice in the matter. It was the Brits who choose war, and it was the Brits to choose to wage that war by targetting the enemy cities and civillian population itself.

Don't blame it anyone else. Britain was not 'attacked' and Britain was not fighting 'back'. Britain wanted to fight and it wanted to fight in this rather dirty way. At least be a man about it.

In 1939 the German army was firing 30,000 shells a day into Warsaw. What's the difference between that and dropping bombs on a city? They also continuously attacked the city from the air. That set the tone for WW2.

It set nothing - an army besieged a city and took it. There's hardly anything special about it. Bombarment of a besieged city is permitted under the rules of war, within some reasonable limits - some sort of military advantage from the bombardment, some sort of restraint from pointless destruction IS required, however.

It set the tone for war propaganda perhaps, but certainly not for the conduct military operations. The French and British militaries were well aware of that fact, but of course their propaganda sold a different picture to their public.

Don't think for a second that if Germany had the Bomber force that the allies had that they wouldn't have done the same thing.

Uhm, they didn't. They had quite a serious bomber force and in fact dropped more bombs until about the end of 1943 than the RAF and USAF combined.

The difference was not capacity, but doctrine. Germany did not have 'bomber barons'. They didn't believe in terror bombings unlike Harris, save a small minority in the LW (the most vocal being v. Richthofen). Most of the German leaders, including Hitler and Goering, Speer etc. thought terror bombing is ineffective and wasteful and the bombers are to be used for better effect against the industries and operational bombing (communication and transportation). Moral reasoning hardly played a role, they simply did not believe it was worth it.

Don't get me wrong, there was no glory in Dresden or Hamburg, but that was where the world was at. To judge it using today's standards, the whole bloody thing was wrong.

I agree that its wrong to apply today's rather soft standards to the 1930s/40s. Racism and racist remarks for example for pretty much general, and openly communicated by even top politicians. Unthinkable today. But mass murder was mass murder even back then, as it was even in the middle ages. That does not mean people didn't get away with it, but they were not trumpheting about it either.

[ATAG_Dutch]

It was the Brits who choose war, and it was the Brits to choose to wage that war by targetting the enemy cities and civillian population itself.

November 1940.

Notable Luftwaffe Operation - Devastation of Coventry.

Notable Bomber Command Operations - Krupps factory at Essen.

[JG52Krupi]

I am afraid to say it was we the Brits that led to the mass bombing of civilians, the first case of the Luftwaffe doing it was actually a mistake which they apologised for but the allies used it as an excuse to bomb Berlin which in turn led to the Luftwaffe targeting towns!

P.S. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" Johnson, Samuel

[JG52Krupi]

Some of you may need to read this....

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/013_jam.html

[ATAG_Dutch]

Wow Krupi, a link to a site that still refers to 'the Fuehrer'.

No thanks. ;)

P.S. I'm a scoundrel then. :(

[carguy_]

Uhm, it was Britain who did declare war on Germany, refused German peace offers during the war (several times in fact), and it was Britain who started bombing German cities.
Peacemongers Germany, who knew!:rolleyes:


To put it like the poor British were 'forced' to fight back against an agression is pure BS.
Right. Because there was no aggression to be fought in Europe at that time.:rolleyes:


They had a choice in the matter. It was the Brits who choose war, and it was the Brits to choose to wage that war by targetting the enemy cities and civillian population itself.
I thought war started with Germany`s aggresion to Poland earlier:confused:


Don't blame it anyone else. Britain was not 'attacked' and Britain was not fighting 'back'. Britain wanted to fight and it wanted to fight in this rather dirty way. At least be a man about it.
Right. They should have stayed out until they`re all alone.


It set nothing - an army besieged a city and took it. There's hardly anything special about it. Bombarment of a besieged city is permitted under the rules of war, within some reasonable limits - some sort of military advantage from the bombardment, some sort of restraint from pointless destruction IS required, however.
Also straffing thousands of civilians leaving the city. They did set a tone for leading a war - a total war once again.


It set the tone for war propaganda perhaps, but certainly not for the conduct military operations. The French and British militaries were well aware of that fact, but of course their propaganda sold a different picture to their public.
Because Hitler never conducted anything other than a military operation:rolleyes:

[arthursmedley]

I dunno Arthur, I find Orville's posts a refreshing change from those of people who think national pride is some sort of crime.



Fair enough but what Orville posted sounds just like a speech by Goebells.
I must say I'm quite sure Avro is laughing his socks off at the moment as the usual suspects rush pell-mell to defend their beloved LW, eh Kurfy?:-)

Btw, your'e quite right about Krupi's post. Heres what wiki has to say about the delightful author of his link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel

I'm constantly amazed by some of the links people provide in these forums!

[ATAG_Doc]

All this talk of bombing innocent civilians gets me totally pumped UP and looking forward to the later periods of IL-2 where we can get into our B-17s finally and into large formations and go to Dresden again. 8!!!

[arthursmedley]

All this talk of bombing innocent civilians gets me totally pumped UP and looking forward to the later periods of IL-2 where we can get into our B-17s finally and into large formations and go to Dresden again. 8!!!

You git! I've just sprayed coffee all over my laptop. lol.

[Blakduk]

Enough with the Nazi apologist BS!
Theirs was a belief system based on extermination of those whom they considered 'untermenschen' after they had sucked all the energy they had to give. They manipulated genuine grievances to nefarious ends and damn near destroyed their own people in the process. The atrocities they committed were almost beyond comprehension, and the wretched fate of nations such as Ukraine and Poland was to be caught between the twin horrors of Stalin and Hitler.
It was an ignoble cause and unfortunately some noble men fought for them, whilst other noble German men were killed by that feral regime because they dared to oppose it.

Hitler was a ruthless, amoral politician who routinely betrayed agreements he made with opponents once he had the power to do so- he nearly won the war in the West in May 1940 when Lord Halifax almost got the numbers in the British parliament to begin negotiations with Hitler for an armistice.

Both sides of the conflict began the war expressing noble intent to avoid civilian deaths and even attempting to avoid the destruction of private property, but once the dogs of war are set loose there is no controlling whom or what they will consume.

I have no doubt the allied nations winning the conflict saved Western Europe from a new dark age. I play a flight simulator GAME to test my skill and enjoy the thrill of virtual combat, not pretend that I am actually engaged in a life and death struggle that has the potential to wipe liberal democracies off the face of the planet. That's why i can get routinely shot down and laugh as i say 'Damn, i got shot in the head again!'

[Kurfürst]

November 1940.

Notable Luftwaffe Operation - Devastation of Coventry's aircraft industries.

Notable Bomber Command Operations - Krupps factory at Essen.

Corrected for factuality. ;)

Both sides attempted to hit industries, but there was of course a lot of collateral damage.

Bomber Command started its attacks on German cities on the night of 11 May 1940, a plan that was considered for some time by the War Cabinet, well before any German meaningful bombing of British soil occured (a few bombs fell on Orkney island, killing a single man iirc)

RAF Bomber Command was authorized to attack German targets east of the Rhine on May 15, 1940; the Air Ministry authorized Air Marshal Charles Portal to attack targets in the Ruhr, including oil plants and other civilian industrial targets which aided the German war effort, such as blast furnaces (which at night were self-illuminating).

The underlying motive for the attacks was to divert German air forces away from the land front. Churchill explained the rationale of his decision to his French counterparts in a letter dated the 16th: "I have examined today with the War Cabinet and all the experts the request which you made to me last night and this morning for further fighter squadrons. We are all agreed that it is better to draw the enemy on to this Island by striking at his vitals, and thus to aid the common cause."

Due to the inadequate British bomb-sights the strikes that followed had the effect of terror raids on towns and villages. On the night of 15/16 May, 96 bombers crossed the Rhine and attacked. 78 had been assigned oil targets, but only 24 claimed to have accomplished their objective.

On the night of May 17/18, RAF Bomber Command bombed oil installations in Hamburg and Bremen; the H.E. and 400 incendiaries dropped caused six large, one moderately large and 29 small fires. As a result of the attack, 47 people were killed and 127 were wounded. Railway yards at Cologne were attacked on the same night.

During May, Essen, Duisburg, Düsseldorf and Hanover were attacked in a similar fashion by Bomber Command. In June, attacks were made on Dortmund, Mannheim, Frankfurt and Bochum. At the time, Bomber Command lacked the necessary navigational and bombing technical background and the accuracy of the bombings during the night attacks was abysmal. Consequently, the bombs were usually scattered over a large area, and the bombing was seen as indiscriminate. There was an uproar in Germany, Jodl wanted retalitory bombing attacks, but Hitler turned him down.

RAF BC during this period in May-June 1940 attempted to limit the bombing to military/industrial targets, just like the Germans tried to do so in Battle of Britain.

Operation Abigail Rachel was the bombing of Mannheim the first deliberate terror raid on Germany on the 16 December. The British had been waiting for the opportunity to experiment with such a raid aimed at creating a maximum of destruction in a selected town since the summer 1940, and the opportunity was given after the German raid on Coventry.

Internally it was declared to be a reprisal for Coventry and Southampton. The new bombing policy was officially ordered by Churchill at the start of December and the operation on condition it receive no publicity and be considered an experiment. Target marking missed the city center and most bombs missed the city center. This led to the development of the bomber stream.Despite the lack of decisive success of this raid, approval was granted for further Abigails. This was the start of a British drift away from precision attacks on military targets and towards area bombing attacks on whole cities.

[swiss]

It certainly turned the world into a better place in 1945.

Do you know what happened if there wasn't Stalin and the rise of the red star?
I don't.

He intended to remove most of the male population in the UK.


Of course you can supply sources for this statement...

[PeterPanPan]

Have you lost your mind?

England (including all other countries, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland, as was appropriate at this time to refer to them simply as England) and France declared war on Germany.

Dispite numerous peace offers of Germany (or the 3rd Reich if you prefer), we the English (British) declined, even when Hitler offered to step down... These peace offering and nogotiations even encluded Rudolf Hess (2nd deputy of Germany) flying to Scotland to reason with the Duke of Hamilton.... In short NSDAP Germany went to great lengths not to war with England. Through the situation England which found the situation of events distasteful - waged war on Germany upon the will of only one man - Winston Spencer Churchill - Lord of the Admiralty ...

Your opinion beggars belief.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Wow Krupi, a link to a site that still refers to 'the Fuehrer'.

No thanks. ;)

P.S. I'm a scoundrel then. :(

The word is Führer. It means leader. It doesnt say "mein Führer" which would give it the meaning of alligence.

Its a common German world still in use:

http://www.dict.cc/?s=F%C3%BChrer

:rolleyes:

[ATAG_Dutch]

The word is Führer.

I know, I have a grade 'B' O level in German. However the umlaut is an abbreviation for 'ue' and I don't have an umlaut on my keyboard as far as I know. :rolleyes: Back, too. :grin:

[csThor]

As a german I'd find this this third-hand rage amusing if it wasn't so sad. Haven't you guys something better to do? http://www.siliconknights.net/forums/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[AndyJWest]

Some of you may need to read this....

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/013_jam.html

Well, well well. At least we know where this drivel is coming from. A website that has such illuminating articles as 'Jewish Criminals and Their Activities' http://www.zundelsite.org/english/jewish_criminals/ being cited for 'evidence'. All denials to the contrary, it seems self-evident that this forum has been hijacked by far-right bigots. I shall of course be reporting this to 1C (and Steam, and Ubisoft, who will I assume not wish to be associated with such objectionable behaviour), and calling for a boycott of the forum from all who wish CloD well, and proposing to 1C that they find an alternate venue for communication with those customers and potential customers actually interested in the simulation, rather than in propagating Nazi-supporting filth and other delusional garbage - the 'climate change' thread comes to mind as another obvious example where such POV-pushing trolls were allowed to spurt ludicrous conspiracy theories attacking all and sundry on the forum with complete impunity. I fully expect to be blocked for this post, but don't care, since it is self evident that the moderators who have allowed (or encouraged?) this to happen have a great deal of responsibility for this mess, and without question need to go.

Goodbye to the forum. I'm off to play Rise of Flight, where it is possible to participate in a community that isn't full of closet neo-Nazis trying to rewrite history, rather than recreate it in simulation. If CloD improves, I may return to it, but I very much doubt that I'll ever want to fly online if it means meeting up with the obnoxious scum that seem to be attracted here. Fortunately, I'm sure they are very much a minority amongst those interested in CloD and its successors, and any half-decent system of moderation would have ensured that they remained in the closet, or in the dustbin of history that they so deserve.

[raaaid]

it caught my attention how many avatars got removed by the no swastica rule

wwii is not over

[CWMV]

I keep waiting for someone to cite "the protocols of the elders of Zion" as a source...lunatics.
Seriously, how has this thread been allowed to live?

[raaaid]

only this game got it right:

a murder is a murder even if a duel or a war

thats why i dont virtually murder in no game

[Kurfürst]

I agree in part. Yes, the best educated young men were killed, and all were volunteers. And yes, WW2 bankrupted Britain. Maybe BC's campaign was not as effective as expected. But how is effectiveness measured in this context?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Good questions and a difficult one to answer, Avro. Early RAF BC operations had some excuses Technology was simply not up to the task to perform anything but area raids initially. Daylight bombing was out of the question with the LW day fighters there, no bombing/navigational aids, bombers too small for effective load, low cap. bombs, no other way present to actually wage war on Germany etc., all very well known.

But these excuses were no longer there when Oboe, H2X, Pathefinders etc. become operational. They were not perfect but they permitted hitting specific targets, certainly ones large enough like industrial complexes with a reasonable degree of success. This coincided with the appointment of Harris, who dismissed the opportunity and kept going for the cities. The attacks on oil targets for example were extremely successfull even during the night, which Harris only grudgingly agreed to, and only temporarily.

Harris kept using (and wasting IMO) this expensive and high tech force area attacks, even after the failure of this tactic was obvious to anyone (i.e. the Air Battle of Berlin, culminating the Nurnberg raid).

This is BTW pretty much what Max Hastings (and some others, most famously Albert Speer was dismissive of area/terror bombing) wrote on the subject, and I agree with him completely. In short, the (from a pragmatic military POV) the criminality Harris was that Bomber Command was kept misused even by the time there were better alternatives, given its increase in size and accuracy. The human perspective is far too obvious for any healthy soul IMHO.

BTW back to the OP, I agree its difficult to fly the invader above your own country. I would have difficulty doing that on the Balaton map, too.

[BlackBerry]

I am afraid to say it was we the Brits that led to the mass bombing of civilians, the first case of the Luftwaffe doing it was actually a mistake which they apologised for but the allies used it as an excuse to bomb Berlin which in turn led to the Luftwaffe targeting towns!

P.S. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" Johnson, Samuel

Nazi is nazi.

IN HUMAN BEING HISTORY, THE FIRST MASS BOMBING OF CIVILLIANS IS GUERNICA.


Guernica is a painting by Pablo Picasso. It was created in response to the bombing of Guernica, Basque Country, by German and Italian warplanes at the behest of the Spanish Nationalist forces, on 26 April 1937, during the Spanish Civil War. The Spanish Republican government commissioned Picasso to create a large mural for the Spanish display at the Paris International Exposition at the 1937 World's Fair in Paris.

Guernica was a quiet village. The nearest military target of any consequence was a factory on the outskirts of the town, which manufactured various war products. The factory went through the attack unscathed. Thus, the motivation of the bombing was clearly one of intimidation. Furthermore, a majority of the town's men were away as they were fighting on behalf of the Republicans. Thus, the town at the time of the bombing was populated mostly by women and children.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/PicassoGuernica.jpg

"Well done", German bombers, and their fans 70 years later.

[winny]

Uhm, it was Britain who did declare war on Germany, refused German peace offers during the war (several times in fact), and it was Britain who started bombing German cities.

To put it like the poor British were 'forced' to fight back against an agression is pure BS.

They had a choice in the matter. It was the Brits who choose war, and it was the Brits to choose to wage that war by targetting the enemy cities and civillian population itself.

Don't blame it anyone else. Britain was not 'attacked' and Britain was not fighting 'back'. Britain wanted to fight and it wanted to fight in this rather dirty way. At least be a man about it.
.

.

You're seriously playing the 'poor old Germany' card?

The Brits did chose war. And as a Brit I'm quite proud that they took a stand against a man as pathetically egotistical as Hitler.

He was warned that if he invaded Poland that Britain and France would declare war. He didn't believe them, more fool him. They guy was an idiot and his people paid a heavy price because of, and NEVER forget this, him.

And the first air raids of WW2 on civilians were carried out by the LW in Poland.
Like I said, they set the tone.

As for Britain fighting in a dirty way, how about the deliberate starvation of people In eastern europe by nazi Germany? Is that clean? Or the industrialisation of executions? Or the many air raids that they carried out?

At the end of it all there is one man responsible, and he took the cowards way out, hiding in a bunker whilst he continued to let his people die.

As a Brit I'm not proud of Dresden or hamburg but Adolf didn't care so why should I?

To blame the british for starting the war smacks of nazi sympathy speak.
So are you? It would explain a lot.

[kendo65]

Uhm, it was Britain who did declare war on Germany, refused German peace offers during the war (several times in fact), and it was Britain who started bombing German cities.

To put it like the poor British were 'forced' to fight back against an agression is pure BS.

They had a choice in the matter. It was the Brits who choose war, and it was the Brits to choose to wage that war by targetting the enemy cities and civillian population itself.

Don't blame it anyone else. Britain was not 'attacked' and Britain was not fighting 'back'. Britain wanted to fight and it wanted to fight in this rather dirty way. At least be a man about it.


Incredible bit of revisionism there. At the very best Hitler's aggression towards Poland could be filed under miscalculation - i.e. Germany attacked with full knowledge of Britain's commitment to come to Poland's aid. Thinking you can get away with your latest subjugation of another country without causing a third party to intervene hardly qualifies for the Nobel Peace prize in my book.

As for 'refusing German peace offers', thank God they did.

Presumably the invasion of Russia in 1941 is another example of peace-loving Germany's harmless intentions - or maybe you can manufacture an alternate history justification for that one too? (and i don't consider 'They were Commies, they had it coming' to be adequate justification)



Uhm, they didn't. They had quite a serious bomber force and in fact dropped more bombs until about the end of 1943 than the RAF and USAF combined.

The difference was not capacity, but doctrine. Germany did not have 'bomber barons'. They didn't believe in terror bombings unlike Harris, save a small minority in the LW (the most vocal being v. Richthofen). Most of the German leaders, including Hitler and Goering, Speer etc. thought terror bombing is ineffective and wasteful and the bombers are to be used for better effect against the industries and operational bombing (communication and transportation). Moral reasoning hardly played a role, they simply did not believe it was worth it.


One thing that always puzzles me amidst this high-minded moral refusal to stoop to British levels is what the German rationale was for the 'Vengeance' weapons (V1 and especially V2). Well-known for their pin-point accuracy and ability to target enemy industry with precision.

London was only spared devastating levels of destruction and civilian deaths because the Allies targeted the production facilities and launching sites and then over-ran them.

Don't even mention the possibility that they had got the A-bomb first to put atop the V2 or the next generation, but i presume some of you may have actually preferred that outcome to the historical one.

Nothing left to say here.

Too many Nazi apologists here for me as well.

[pencon]

Well, well well. At least we know where this drivel is coming from. A website that has such illuminating articles as 'Jewish Criminals and Their Activities' http://www.zundelsite.org/english/jewish_criminals/ being cited for 'evidence'. All denials to the contrary, it seems self-evident that this forum has been hijacked by far-right bigots. I shall of course be reporting this to 1C (and Steam, and Ubisoft, who will I assume not wish to be associated with such objectionable behaviour), and calling for a boycott of the forum from all who wish CloD well, and proposing to 1C that they find an alternate venue for communication with those customers and potential customers actually interested in the simulation, rather than in propagating Nazi-supporting filth and other delusional garbage - the 'climate change' thread comes to mind as another obvious example where such POV-pushing trolls were allowed to spurt ludicrous conspiracy theories attacking all and sundry on the forum with complete impunity. I fully expect to be blocked for this post, but don't care, since it is self evident that the moderators who have allowed (or encouraged?) this to happen have a great deal of responsibility for this mess, and without question need to go.

Goodbye to the forum. I'm off to play Rise of Flight, where it is possible to participate in a community that isn't full of closet neo-Nazis trying to rewrite history, rather than recreate it in simulation. If CloD improves, I may return to it, but I very much doubt that I'll ever want to fly online if it means meeting up with the obnoxious scum that seem to be attracted here. Fortunately, I'm sure they are very much a minority amongst those interested in CloD and its successors, and any half-decent system of moderation would have ensured that they remained in the closet, or in the dustbin of history that they so deserve.
It's called freedom of speech Andy , please do go and whine somewhere else . Perhaps the rise of flight forum people will agree with your every thought and you won't be forced to label them with lefty OWS insults .Please inform us all in advance when you make your triumphant return to these forums , we will wait with great anticipation .Ps You're not that actor who plays that skinny nerdy guy on "the Big Bang Theory " are you ?

[BlackBerry]

You're seriously playing the 'poor old Germany' card?

The Brits did chose war. And as a Brit I'm quite proud that they took a stand against a man as pathetically egotistical as Hitler.

He was warned that if he invaded Poland that Britain and France would declare war. He didn't believe them, more fool him. They guy was an idiot and his people paid a heavy price because of, and NEVER forget this, him.

And the first air raids of WW2 on civilians were carried out by the LW in Poland.
Like I said, they set the tone.

As for Britain fighting in a dirty way, how about the deliberate starvation of people In eastern europe by nazi Germany? Is that clean? Or the industrialisation of executions? Or the many air raids that they carried out?

At the end of it all there is one man responsible, and he took the cowards way out, hiding in a bunker whilst he continued to let his people die.

As a Brit I'm not proud of Dresden or hamburg but Adolf didn't care so why should I?

To blame the british for starting the war smacks of nazi sympathy speak.
So are you? It would explain a lot.

Furfurst's opinion about history is distorted. As a man from allied side, I support you. :)

Luftwaffe tried to kill children and women BEFORE WWII in Spain civil war in 1937.

Britain has beaten several autarchy countries in history, I am proud of Britain's contribution to free world.

[JG52Krupi]

Nazi is nazi.



WTF... did i mention nazi's my post was about the blame of civilian terror bombing which was done much more by the allies....

It was a means to an end, its war everyone gets there hands dirty just some more so than others.

[Kurfürst]

Nazi is nazi.

IN HUMAN BEING HISTORY, THE FIRST MASS BOMBING OF CIVILLIANS IS GUERNICA.

Hardly. Guernica was a propaganda stunt of the anti-fascist powers, inflating

Also mass bombing of civilians preceeded Guernica by decades. The Italians excercised it in their Ethiopian campaign, the British bombed arab villages to terrorize the population in Iraq, the French bombed Damascus in 1925, and there are the Zeppeling raids.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Damas_en_flamme.jpg http://www.syrianhistory.com/image_width.php?t=photo12051734622.jpg&s=557
Damascus in flames as the result of the French air raid on October 18, 1925. / French officers inspecting the damage

Guernica was a quiet village. The nearest military target of any consequence was a factory on the outskirts of the town, which manufactured various war products. The factory went through the attack unscathed. Thus, the motivation of the bombing was clearly one of intimidation. Furthermore, a majority of the town's men were away as they were fighting on behalf of the Republicans. Thus, the town at the time of the bombing was populated mostly by women and children.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/PicassoGuernica.jpg

"Well done", German bombers, and their fans 70 years later.

"Quiet village"? With pastors and lambs and stuff like that? :D Get real.

Sure, it was a perfectly normal little town, in the frontline, with two Basque battalions in it.

The Germans and Italians simply bombed a strategic chokepoint, and attempted to block the roads leading in and out of the city, and thus trapping the Republican forces.

Regrettably about four hundred innocents died in the process (the exact number was never really established though, nobody kept record how many died in the bombing, how many in the fighting and how many 'suspicious ones' were executed as typical in this civil war).

Allied and Soviet press boosted this again tenfold, up to 6000 dead were claimed.

Military situation

Advances by Nationalist troops led by Generalísimo Francisco Franco had eaten into the territory controlled by the Republican Government. The Basque Government, an autonomous regional administrative body formed by Basque nationalists and leftists, sought to defend Biscay and parts of Guipuzcoa with its own light Basque Army. At the time of the raid, Guernica represented a focal strategic point for the Republican forces./b] It stood between the Nationalists and capture of Bilbao. Bilbao was seen as key to bringing the war to a conclusion in the north of Spain. Guernica also was the path of retreat for the Republicans from the northeast of Biscay.
Prior to the Condor Legion raid, the town had not been directly involved in the fighting, although [b]Republican forces were in the area; 23 battalions of Basque army troops were at the front east of Guernica. The town also housed two Basque army battalions, although it had no static air defences, and it was thought that no air cover could be expected due to recent losses of the Republican Air Force.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica#Military_situation

[pencon]

Once again it's a SIM people , none of us alive today were personally involved. Would you German haters buy this sim if there was no enemy to fight ? Perhaps you guys should buy a sim where people sit in rocking chairs and sip lemonade .Flying a German plane in this SIM does not make a person a nazi sympathizer any more than flying a Russian plane in the next sim will make you a communist . Or flying a British plane will make you a tea sipper . Get a grip . It's a SIM and a video game. I also fly an Fw190d9 RC plane but I don't profess to any nazi sympathies .I think the interest people have in flying the LW planes is in some ways similar to the interest they have In watching mafia movies and other crime stories .Didn't Britain at one time have a massive "British Empire " ? How do you suppose that happened ? Did they impose it by being nice to the countries they conquered ?One more thing , some of you better not fly the Italian planes either , they were German allies .

[AndyJWest]

.Flying a German plane in this SIM does not make a person a nazi sympathizer

Posting pro-Nazi material and links to holocaust-denial websites does, you clueless troll.

And P.S. I've flown Luftwaffe planes in sims often enough. I can tell simulation from reality. I am also aware that not everyone may feel comfortable associating themselves, even indirectly, with the political regime sponsoring such planes. This is of course an individual ethical choice - one that needs to be considered in the context of a simulation that seems to encourage lunatic-fringe far-right participants to engage in soapboxing to push their vile agenda. In such a context, to say that it is 'just a simulation' and ignore what is going on is quite possibly morally questionable. I suggest that those with any morals ask themselves the question, and make their own decisions.

[TomcatViP]

Urgent ccc request to all flying admins commanders - stop

close that thread by all manners - stop

public reward and gratification granted - stop

tc & all willing associates

end

[pencon]

Posting pro-Nazi material and links to holocaust-denial websites does, you clueless troll.

And P.S. I've flown Luftwaffe planes in sims often enough. I can tell simulation from reality. I am also aware that not everyone may feel comfortable associating themselves, even indirectly, with the political regime sponsoring such planes. This is of course an individual ethical choice - one that needs to be considered in the context of a simulation that seems to encourage lunatic-fringe far-right participants to engage in soapboxing to push their vile agenda. In such a context, to say that it is 'just a simulation' and ignore what is going on is quite possibly morally questionable. I suggest that those with any morals ask themselves the question, and make their own decisions.
And I thought you left these forums for good ? Wow you're back already .You wouldn't like the rise of flight forums anyway ,nobody to trade insults with .I think you DO in fact have trouble seperating this Sim from reality .ps Nowhere did I make excuses for or sympathize with nazi tactics or political agenda . I merely like to fly the German planes on this sim .To me this is a video game .To you , it's life or death it seems . I'm so hurt by you calling me a troll .Almost as much as your other over used and tired word - bigot.If you would like to hurl further cliched insults my way I'll brace myself for it ...

[kendo65]

Kurfurst, it is a classic sign of someone losing the original argument when they suddenly broaden the context like that. We were talking about causes of WW2 and the respective approaches of Germany / the Allies to bombing strategy.

Now suddenly it's about Britain's colonial past? I am not going to make any attempt at justification for the actions of the colonial regime of that era. I personally despise those attitudes, actions and the weasly get-outs mouthed by some modern-day apologists for them.

But, for Christ's sake take the plank out of your own eye before you start complaining about the speck in other people's!

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjgPh4SEmU

I'm a Geordie. Love a good auld Scrap. Bring it! Sorts the Men out from the Boys.

:grin:

[winny]

http://www.executedtoday.com/2011/06/13/1857-blown-from-cannons-sepoy-rebellion/

An account from the February 15, 1862 Harper’s Weekly of a very messy spectacle orchestrated to maintain British control of Punjab.


British Concentration Camps




Dresden 1945:



What the f..?

How is this relevant in an argument about the British use of air power during WW2. It isn't. It's an attempt to highlight some nasty British history simply for point scoring and shock factor..

You're pathetic Kurfurst.

If you walked up to me in the street and punched me in the face and then I put you in hospital in return, and you stated moaning that I hurt you, that would, in my book, make you a pussy.

Germany as a nation, at the time had to be shown what war was like

Were German civilians of more value than Russian or Polish civilians?
Nazi Germany had no problems with killing civilians, they were systematic in it.

Just to clarify my position, I spent a lot of time in Munich, I like Germany and in general I like Germans. I don't think bombing civilians is a good thing, I do however understand that sadly that is how the 2nd world war was fought, by all participants.

I didn't really appreciate how badly Germany was hit during WW2 until I noticed all the little plaques on historic buildings that say "rebuilt 1948" or "reconstructed 1950", I felt some sympathy for them, the flip side is whilst I was there I also visited Dachau I felt sympathy for the people who were murdered there too.

You can say what you want about how bad Britain has behaved in the past, it's probably true. That has no effect whatsoever on how they conducted themselves once the idiot that was Adolf Hitler decided that lots of people needed to die because he didn't like them, or because he wanted their resources..

[raaaid]

haha i knew it the only reason they let this thread go is get rid off the bad boys

[ATAG_Dutch]

Easy now tiger! :grin:

[JG52Krupi]

Posting pro-Nazi material and links to holocaust-denial websites does, you clueless troll.

And P.S. I've flown Luftwaffe planes in sims often enough. I can tell simulation from reality. I am also aware that not everyone may feel comfortable associating themselves, even indirectly, with the political regime sponsoring such planes. This is of course an individual ethical choice - one that needs to be considered in the context of a simulation that seems to encourage lunatic-fringe far-right participants to engage in soapboxing to push their vile agenda. In such a context, to say that it is 'just a simulation' and ignore what is going on is quite possibly morally questionable. I suggest that those with any morals ask themselves the question, and make their own decisions.

Who was doing that?

[DD_crash]

OT Yes Britain had an Empire We were the only nation to do this except for in no paticular order
Spain
Portugal
France
Holland
Germany
Italy (twice if you count the Romans)
Austria
No offence to anybody but it seems to me that some feel that only the Brits should feel the need to appologise for their past.

[nearmiss]

The thread is closed.