Microsoft Surface, thank god sanity has returned!

[He111]

ok, we've had our scare that overhyped tablets would rule the world and kill off desktops, but now microsoft will show the power of the slim laptop, as it rises to the Surface, and hopefully proves to Apple hype-tragics the power of the PC cannot be stopped.

In other words, no need for 1C to think of a cut down version of CLod for tablets, like CA totalwar battles (yuk!)

hmmm, time to short Apple?

.

[SQB]

You missed the Pilot's Lounge.

[He111]

Sorry , I thought the news was so epic it should be promoted.

.

[Sternjaeger II]

ok, we've had our scare that overhyped tablets would rule the world and kill off desktops, but now microsoft will show the power of the slim laptop, as it rises to the Surface, and hopefully proves to Apple hype-tragics the power of the PC cannot be stopped.

In other words, no need for 1C to think of a cut down version of CLod for tablets, like CA totalwar battles (yuk!)

hmmm, time to short Apple?

.

I don't know what's funnier, the fact that you still compare Apple to Microsoft or that you really think this is important news ;)

[xnomad]

If MS start producing hardware to marry with their software, like Apple does, they will lock out other operating systems and hardware manufacturers. The Build-It-Yourself market will probably be purely Linux from then on.

The PC hardware vendors will have no choice but to fully support Linux or die. The question is how long will the PC as we know it exist? Ubuntu are working on an OS for a smart phone that you can plug a keyboard and monitor into. So basically you get to work, put your phone on the desk and use it as a desktop.

[He111]

I don't know what's funnier, the fact that you still compare Apple to Microsoft or that you really think this is important news ;)

Microsofts Market cap is only half that of Apple but i think they're on the right direction with powerful pads, which should run most PC software in the future. Clod is safe.

I bet microsofts Market cap will overtake Apple in 5 years.

.

[Sternjaeger II]

they can barely release a half decent stable OS, I don't think they can enter that market without damaging themselves deeply..

They really need to re-design the whole concept of OS from its core, they're still using an obsolete mentality. It's like a steam powered ice machine really..

[swiss]

If MS start producing hardware to marry with their software, like Apple does, they will lock out other operating systems and hardware manufacturers. The Build-It-Yourself market will probably be purely Linux from then on.

No, but MS needs reference hw to prove they can build powerful tablet OSes - which is currently pretty hard given the fact the manufacturers constantly change their specs.

This is pretty much how apple does it. The hw might be a tad obsolete but under your control, add a sexy case -> working product and lots of cash.


edit:
they can barely release a half decent stable OS

Tablet OS you mean, right? W7 is bullet proof.

[Sternjaeger II]

No, but MS needs reference hw to prove they can build powerful tablet OSes - which is currently pretty hard given the fact the manufacturers constantly change their specs.

This is pretty much how apple does it. The hw might be a tad obsolete but under your control, add a sexy case -> working product and lots of cash.


edit:


Tablet OS you mean, right? W7 is bullet proof.

Windows what is what?! LOL :lol::lol::lol:

[Madfish]

Windows what is what?! LOL :lol::lol::lol:
Great statement to look like a completely clueless troll. :rolleyes:

I guess this thread can be locked. Nothing useful will come out of it.

[Sternjaeger II]

Great statement to look like a completely clueless troll. :rolleyes:

I guess this thread can be locked. Nothing useful will come out of it.

well I'm sorry, but I use OS X for work and THAT is a stable OS which is nowhere near as troublesome as ANY Windows OS.

We're not just talking about "will it start up and not crash on me?", we're talking about performance, security, stability, compatibility. Windows fails on it all because the concept behind it is wrong: you want something dependable and that works without too many itches? You have to follow the Apple philosophy.

[McFeckit]

I'm a pragmatist....I have a beefy desktop with Win7 which is the best win OS by far. A netbook running Ubuntu which satisfies my Linux urges. An iPad for laying on the couch and writing, such as this post. An Android phone for reading the news in the loo at work. And finally an ARM cortex dev board so I can waste a few hours trying to get a couple of LEDs to flash.

Life is good.

[bongodriver]

Stern.....you spend too much time at the altar of St Jobs, Apple suff only works because they limit the capabilities of their products, they just ensure stability by making sure you can't do anything beyond it's built in handicap, at least a windows tablet will never need a 'jailbreak' to unlock latent capabilities.

Apple fans love.....no worship apple products and that is just grand, Windows users couldn't be happier for them that they have found Nirvana, Apple users users condemn windows users as infidels.
Windows users like windows and think apple stuff is quite nice but limiting, I think my ipad is great but all I wan't is a jailbreak every time so I can use all the features the hardware is capable of, it's like buying an 'iCar2' and finding out the A/C is there but you aren't allowed to use it because it doesn't have the controls and besides the 'iCar3' will have the controls to operate the A/C........and no you can't buy the controls separately and install them in the iCar2.

[swiss]

well I'm sorry, but I use OS X for work and THAT is a stable OS which is nowhere near as troublesome as ANY Windows OS I had


fyp.

You cant crash w7.
unless:
- you OC
- install incompatible/defective hw
- use 3rd party programs which are, uh, "not so well" coded...

You have to follow the Apple philosophy.

Only that this philosophy can never work for MS.
Didn't you say your a consultant...

[Sternjaeger II]

Stern.....you spend too much time at the altar of St Jobs, Apple suff only works because they limit the capabilities of their products, they just ensure stability by making sure you can't do anything beyond it's built in handicap, at least a windows tablet will never need a 'jailbreak' to unlock latent capabilities.

We actually work across several platforms, and overall we all reckon Apple products just work better. What are the limitations you talk about, and above all how much does the average office user need stuff beyond the usual stuff?
As for jailbreaking, it's normally done to access illegal content, there are millions of talented apps out there.

Apple fans love.....no worship apple products and that is just grand, Windows users couldn't be happier for them that they have found Nirvana, Apple users users condemn windows users as infidels.
Windows users like windows and think apple stuff is quite nice but limiting, I think my ipad is great but all I wan't is a jailbreak every time so I can use all the features the hardware is capable of, it's like buying an 'iCar2' and finding out the A/C is there but you aren't allowed to use it because it doesn't have the controls and besides the 'iCar3' will have the controls to operate the A/C........and no you can't buy the controls separately and install them in the iCar2.

what you want is not what necessarily the market wants. Customers want reliable, dependable software and hardware, and Microsoft simply can't offer that, nor is an ideal platform for tweakers (Linux is much better in that respect). Microsoft is a dying dinosaur, and the faster it dies, the better for everybody. Maybe they should stop making OS and just concentrate on office dedicated software really.

[Sternjaeger II]

fyp.

You cant crash w7.
unless:
- you OC
- install incompatible/defective hw
- use 3rd party programs which are, uh, "not so well" coded...

lol sure, you should have a look at the tickets of our IT helpdesk. The problem is not the software per se, it's the misuse of it. Users with little or no understanding of how an OS or PC really work will do a lot more damage than savvy ones, and that's where Microsoft loses in terms of quality.


Only that this philosophy can never work for MS.
Didn't you say your a consultant...

I'm not a consultant, but I can tell that my 15 years' experience of use of PCs and Macs for professional use taught me that if you want to work and have a dependable platform for it, nothing comes close to the Apple combo of hardware and software in terms of quality, reliability and above all post-sale service.

If you want to play games obviously PCs are the best choice, but that's just a deformity of the market, where software houses push the boundaries in agreement with GPU makers to raise the bar of quality and increase sales.
Come to think of it, there have been very few innovative game concepts in the last 10 years, it's all been about visually stunning more than anything else.

[swiss]

lol sure, you should have a look at the tickets of our IT helpdesk. The problem is not the software per se, it's the misuse of it. Users with little or no understanding of how an OS or PC really work will do a lot more damage than savvy ones, and that's where Microsoft loses in terms of quality.


No - it's the IT department. If you have a buddy at Ernest&young you might want to ask him for his laptop - there is nothing you fu, the user is locked out from pretty much everything. Those things wont even accept a foreign usb stick without formating and encrypting it(god knows what else it does to it). After that procedure you can only use it company PCs, that is, unless you format it again.
The problems they are experiencing are related to lotus(iirc) and other 3rd party software.
So yes, you can. Dont ask me how, but you can.

above all post-sale service

I guess you're referring to software, when it comes to hardware their service sux, in CH at least.

[Sternjaeger II]

So limiting the access to the machines is the answer?! I'll keep on working with Apple,thank you!

The hardware support here is perfect: you call,they come pick it up,fix it and bring it back for free,no questions asked. Truth is that hardware problems are a less common occurrence with Macs,at least according to our IT folks.

[Bewolf]

So limiting the access to the machines is the answer?! I'll keep on working with Apple,thank you!

The hardware support here is perfect: you call,they come pick it up,fix it and bring it back for free,no questions asked. Truth is that hardware problems are a less common occurrence with Macs,at least according to our IT folks.

Fix it, bring it back for free? Is that some kind of special company contract including this service? Certainly does not apply to my devices.

[Sternjaeger II]

Fix it, bring it back for free? Is that some kind of special company contract including this service? Certainly does not apply to my devices.

All Apple products have a compulsory 1 year warranty on hardware and software, once that expires you can buy an extended warranty package that covers for 3 years.

As a private customer you can also have them to pick it up via courier, but I'm not sure whether it's an extra cost or not (my Apple store is not far and I took mine in only once to have a hardware issue fixed).

I believe we have some sort of agreement re. pick up here, but everything else is done for free. They pride themselves about their after sale support, and rightly so!

[Bewolf]

All Apple products have a compulsory 1 year warranty on hardware and software, once that expires you can buy an extended warranty package that covers for 3 years.

As a private customer you can also have them to pick it up via courier, but I'm not sure whether it's an extra cost or not (my Apple store is not far and I took mine in only once to have a hardware issue fixed).

I believe we have some sort of agreement re. pick up here, but everything else is done for free. They pride themselves about their after sale support, and rightly so!

For software/hardware defects, probably.
When my Iphone hit the ground (from the living room table, 30 cm) the glass immidiatly broke. That gave me some suprises, given how Apple advertises built quality.

The store was unable to replace the glass, I had to get a new one alltogether. Hard cash involved. That cured me from any given Apple fanboyism.

Couple that with what was already said here, a closed system with everything running over the apple store, and my iphone will remain what it is. A cellphone for business soon to be replaced by a Galaxy SIII.

Interestingly enough, lots of folks I meet are making this switch currently, too.

[Sternjaeger II]

For software/hardware defects, probably.
When my Iphone hit the ground (from the living room table, 30 cm) the glass immidiatly broke. That gave me some suprises, given how Apple advertises built quality.

The store was unable to replace the glass, I had to get a new one alltogether. Hard cash involved. That cured me from any given Apple fanboyism.
[quote]
That is odd. Not that it broke I mean, but that they weren't unable to replace the glass. Besides you can find many independent shops that can do it for a fraction of the cost (or do it yourself!). I hope you didn't throw yours away!
Mobile phones are a reality per se though.

[quote]
Couple that with what was already said here, a closed system with everything running over the apple store, and my iphone will remain what it is. A cellphone for business soon to be replaced by a Galaxy SIII.

Interestingly enough, lots of folks I meet are making this switch currently, too.

this is because you need to put a stricter control to ensure quality. If people don't accept this, they're gonna end up with a crippled product that won't work in the end (and that's why many people damage their android based mobiles). Apple has been the first company to deliver a mobile phone that has an extensive support for millions (!!!) of apps, making sure they respect the required standards and do not cause trouble to the phone, and many of them are free! I have a fantastic free satnav that works a treat on my iPhone, and got so many other useful apps in there!

A friend of mine just got himself a Galaxy, she wanted to install Facebook on it and it turns out you need a Google account to do it on Android.. it's this kind of patched up wonky things that really put me off android.

[Bewolf]

[QUOTE=Bewolf;436626]For software/hardware defects, probably.
When my Iphone hit the ground (from the living room table, 30 cm) the glass immidiatly broke. That gave me some suprises, given how Apple advertises built quality.

The store was unable to replace the glass, I had to get a new one alltogether. Hard cash involved. That cured me from any given Apple fanboyism.
[quote]
That is odd. Not that it broke I mean, but that they weren't unable to replace the glass. Besides you can find many independent shops that can do it for a fraction of the cost (or do it yourself!). I hope you didn't throw yours away!
Mobile phones are a reality per se though.

No, I did not throw it away, I had to leave it at the store. The new phone cost me 150€, cheaper then paying the full price, but still waaay too much for the glass.


this is because you need to put a stricter control to ensure quality. If people don't accept this, they're gonna end up with a crippled product that won't work in the end (and that's why many people damage their android based mobiles). Apple has been the first company to deliver a mobile phone that has an extensive support for millions (!!!) of apps, making sure they respect the required standards and do not cause trouble to the phone, and many of them are free! I have a fantastic free satnav that works a treat on my iPhone, and got so many other useful apps in there!

And make a shitload of cash with Apps that otherwise would be free. It is a double edged sword. Imho, Apple are for noobs that neither have the expirience nor the will to modern IT.
For everybody with a plan of how computers work Windows or Android offers much greater flexebility due to their open architecture.



A friend of mine just got himself a Galaxy, she wanted to install Facebook on it and it turns out you need a Google account to do it on Android.. it's this kind of patched up wonky things that really put me off android.

Facebook is the least of my worries.

[swiss]

So limiting the access to the machines is the answer?! I'll keep on working with Apple,thank you!

This is actually exactly what apple does - hide crucial functions so deep in the the OS the average user never stumbles across them. Smart move.
W7 made a huge step there compared to XP.
Again, I'm not arguing which OS is better, it's just your points of criticism are wrong(in general).

Truth is that hardware problems are a less common occurrence with Macs,at least according to our IT folks.

I thought we had an agreement on MS only being the software supplier?
Now, who specifies your machine? Maybe the IT folks? ;)

Or do you really think it's the OS damaging the HW...


The new phone cost me 150€

That's exactly what the apple store in zürich charges for the repair of the just the glass.
The procedure is a PITA btw, I was researching it because a buddy of mine dropped his 4s too*. Since I'm pretty proficient on older Motorolas I thought maybe I could... it's not gonna happen.

*and he had an Apple OE Aluminum hardcover! What are those things supposed to protect the phone from? Sunlight?

[Sternjaeger II]

No, I did not throw it away, I had to leave it at the store. The new phone cost me 150€, cheaper then paying the full price, but still waaay too much for the glass.
You should have checked the internet then, there are hundreds of retailers that sell spare parts and fixing it is not a big job, you can find loads of tutorials on internet. I changed 3 glasses on three different iPhones so far without a problem. Yes, they're more fragile than the others, but nothing's perfect.


And make a shitload of cash with Apps that otherwise would be free. It is a double edged sword. Imho, Apple are for noobs that neither have the expirience nor the will to modern IT.
For everybody with a plan of how computers work Windows or Android offers much greater flexebility due to their open architecture.

obviously you have a faint understanding of how app development works. This new market generated SO many jobs! You should really look into this with more attention before blurting out nonsense like "Apple is for noobs".. it's such an immature attitude, I wouldn't have expected it from you Bewolf.

Facebook is the least of my worries.
it was just an example, Android is just a badly made copy of iOS.
This fall they're gonna release the new iOS6, have you seen what they're gonna implement in it?! The new map system is mind boggling, and you get it for FREE. That's the way they work: they use their money in R&D and deliver great innovative ideas.

[Sternjaeger II]

This is actually exactly what apple does - hide crucial functions so deep in the the OS the average user never stumbles across them. Smart move.
W7 made a huge step there compared to XP.
Again, I'm not arguing which OS is better, it's just your points of criticism are wrong(in general).
Wrong according to who, you? Oh well, I know nuffink really, but I'm sure you know more than an IT office that services 10k PCs and Macs all over the UK ;)


I thought we had an agreement on MS only being the software supplier?
Now, who specifies your machine? Maybe the IT folks? ;)

Or do you really think it's the OS damaging the HW...

you're missing the point, it's the whole concept of providing "software only" that is at the base of the problem. The potential given by a PC in terms of access to bios, regedit and other vital settings of the machine is totally unnecessary in most cases, and puts the machine at a seriously high potential risk of damage, data loss, virus attack etc... your Win7 still needs a sound antivirus and firewall to work safely, Macs can well live without one.


That's exactly what the apple store in zürich charges for the repair of the just the glass.
The procedure is a PITA btw, I was researching it because a buddy of mine dropped his 4s too*. Since I'm pretty proficient on older Motorolas I thought maybe I could... it's not gonna happen.

*and he had an Apple OE Aluminum hardcover! What are those things supposed to protect the phone from? Sunlight?

they don't repair yours, they flash your memory and apply it to a refurbished one in most cases.

As I said, I've fixed several myself for friends and colleagues and it's easier once you know what you're doing and have the right tools.

[Hood]

Speaking personally I'm an Apple fanboy for my phone (gimme gimme iPhone 5) and W7 for my computing - I've never had a problem with it at home or in the office running bespoke software, roaming profiles, virtual networking etc etc. I've used OSX extensively but don't like the "feel" of it.

Unless you're a hater of the large hardware/software companies either does fine. For stability I'd probably go with OSX because the possible combinations of hardware/peripherals is smaller so stability is easier to obtain. I'll stick with W7 though.

Hood

[swiss]

The potential given by a PC in terms of access to bios, regedit and other vital settings of the machine is totally unnecessary in most cases, and puts the machine at a seriously high potential risk of damage

Aaaah?


your Win7 still needs a sound antivirus and firewall to work safely, Macs can well live without one.

And why is that?
Because their Os is so superior or maybe because....? ;)

[grawl]

Isn't it because Macs are not so much widespread, so it's not worth the money for virus designers ? If Macs get everywhere i bet you'll soon get viruses everywhere, and antiviruses will follow too. The Cambrian Explosion again, yeah ! ! :wink:


Thinking about it, it's kinda wierd Apple, that may be the most closed computer company in terms of customizability (?not sure about this word :eek:) is actually basing it's OS on an open source stuff...

Android is just a badly made copy of iOS.
Let's not talk about Symbian Belle then :-) :-P (btw got the new Nokia N700 and it works like a charm, holds discretly in my pocket and makes the job perfectly).


I'm sure you know more than an IT office that services 10k PCs and Macs all over the UK
I'm not living in the UK but over here in France it's quite usual that the service given by companies that handle thousands of computers in tens/hundreds of companies is really bad... you wait half a day for a guy to change a dumb setting or component that you could have changed yourself if your company didn't signed this overpaid contract...
It is like engaging an extern dev company to develop an app for your company, you pay a lot and people that work with you have no idea of how future users (usually dumb computer-scared users :lol: lol) will do with it.
Home-baked programs always rock better :-P (fightin' for my own cause a bit here, hehe :smile:)

The more computers you need to handle the less you are close from your customers and their needs and feel, so I don't think the numbers are relevant here.



Back on topic !
The new MS tablet looks pretty awesome, like an iPad but with an actual keyboard and pad. I'm not sur I would like the flat keybord feeling though.
Will BoM run on it? :twisted:

[He111]

.. and what does Sheldon have to say on this issue ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT9VNdgKnI4

LOL!!! from the horses mouth! LOL! :grin:

.

[MD_Titus]

a microsoft vs apple thread?

really?

[swiss]

a microsoft vs apple thread?

really?

tangential - why not?

[Sternjaeger II]

tangential - why not?

because there's no point (nor match)..

[MD_Titus]

... and it's a bit ground-hog day

[bongodriver]

http://uberhumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/resized_E5GLT.jpg