Whats with the Spit E retention?

[gimpy117]

What does it take to bounce this aircraft? I bounced a Spit attacking a 110 with a 5000+ ft. E advantage, and he did the old spitfire loop on me and immediately had lead. Lets face it, He entered the same maneuver I followed with, and from a lower energy state ended up in a higher energy state. I wasn't worried about turn fighting with him, because c'mon it's the G.50!...but it seems this isn't isolated. I had a Spit on the edge of stall (actually he did go for a swim later, but i think he just didn't see the water) with his flaps down, yet he was still able to do loops and the like, something I could scarcely follow. I know I have less horsepower, yet I'm about 1,000 pounds or so lighter.

I'm just confused here...and I've noticed this flying the spit myself...what does it take to bleed serious energy from this craft? I've only found myself once stalling other than that pulling off hard turns is a baby frolic

[pstyle]

what does it take to bleed serious energy from this craft? I've only found myself once stalling other than that pulling off hard turns is a baby frolic

I've lost the spit on many occasions. Aggressively reversing your turn with the nose slightly up will do it, especially if your air-speed is below 100mph. The spit will flick if you yank it past the buffet, especially when out of trim in the z-axis.

Dropping the flaps does give you a remarkable rate of turn in the spits...but then you bleed of so much speed doing it that you have to go guns at the first opportunity, and then get nose level and roll out fast to get some energy back. If anyone can do a full level max-rate turn with the flaps down and maintain anything more than about 120mph indicated, I would like to know.

As soon as the 109 realizes you are slow, he should climb. The dead 109s are the ones that stay in the same vertical plane.

[gimpy117]

I've lost the spit on many occasions. Aggressively reversing your turn with the nose slightly up will do it, especially if your air-speed is below 100mph. The spit will flick if you yank it past the buffet, especially when out of trim in the z-axis.
.

yeah but under 100mph is dead slow...It's silly you can't go over AoA if over that speed...especially with that thin wing. it's strange, because the Me-109's stall speed is 75 MPH "when" Gliding and the Spitfires is 87MPH when gliding in A.S.I

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109E_UKtrials/Morgan.html
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/n3171.html

[TomcatViP]

yeah but under 100mph is dead slow...It's silly you can't go over AoA if over that speed...especially with that thin wing. it's strange, because the Me-109's stall speed is 75 MPH "when" Gliding and the Spitfires is 87MPH when gliding in A.S.I

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109E_UKtrials/Morgan.html
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/n3171.html

You can't outurn a Spit even in a Fiat G50 (that have a Cr42 FM I suspect). So much that in twice occasion, doing the Hula Hoop with a spit in my six, nose down, I ended with no energy at all. On the first occasion, I splashed flat from 50 m in the sea (no Pilot death) on trhe second one I fell down to earth with enough alt for a recoveery.

What did the Spit pilot stuck in my 6 the seconds before ? He twic epulled out 500+meter higher in a CLIMBING TURN !!!!

Frankly, if you are an experienced flyer and still use the Spit in CoD, shame on you (unless you have some sentimental acquaintanceship with her - you know... just like boys and b**bs).

I don't understand what Russians have with the Spit. Did try one last time the marvelous Spit in Jane's WWII (Jane's is a BRIT (!) company) and that was just it: perfect.

[gimpy117]

You can't outurn a Spit even in a Fiat G50 (that have a Cr42 FM I suspect). So much that in twice occasion, doing the Hula Hoop with a spit in my six, nose down, I ended with no energy at all. On the first occasion, I splashed flat from 50 m in the sea (no Pilot death) on trhe second one I fell down to earth with enough alt for a recoveery.

What did the Spit pilot stuck in my 6 the seconds before ? He twic epulled out 500+meter higher in a CLIMBING TURN !!!!

Frankly, if you are an experienced flyer and still use the Spit in CoD, shame on you (unless you have some sentimental acquaintanceship with her - you know... just like boys and b**bs).

I don't understand what Russians have with the Spit. Did try one last time the marvelous Spit in Jane's WWII (Jane's is a BRIT (!) company) and that was just it: perfect.

I agree, that's what I've noticed it was doing large climbing turns on me and semi-barrel rolling over to make gun runs on me. No way I could follow on this and he was out turning me. I call foul on that I thought the G.50 was supposed to be VERY maneuverable. and it is interesting, the G.50 does seem to be closer to the Cr42...it makes about the max speed mentioned at 400M. and I can't get above that. I got it to 3,995 meters or so and my engine blew...hrmph...so yes Something Is screwy here with the Spit...especially since it can out turn ANYTHING is seems be it the hurricane or the G.50

also, the Merlin with +6 boost only has .2 better power loading than the G.50. Although who flies the Ia with the 89 octane anyways. There was large lobby for the rarer IIa with 100 octane so i suspect that everybody is wheeling around in dogfights with the 12+ boost

[TomcatViP]

I agree, that's what I've noticed it was doing large climbing turns on me and semi-barrel rolling over to make gun runs on me. No way I could follow on this and he was out turning me. I call foul on that I thought the G.50 was supposed to be VERY maneuverable. and it is interesting, the G.50 does seem to be closer to the Cr42...it makes about the max speed mentioned at 400M. and I can't get above that. I got it to 3,995 meters or so and my engine blew...hrmph...so yes Something Is screwy here with the Spit...especially since it can out turn ANYTHING is seems be it the hurricane or the G.50

Yes it was. That's why I am taking it as a reference.

I hve to say that some Spitpilot even don't realize this fact until you'd notice that to them.

So I guess we have to be patient. There is still a handful of Spit's extremist, but the vast majority simply can't see it for now.

[gimpy117]

I noticed it from the start. Always wondered why my hurricane falls out of the sky yet the spit flies on. i don't even touch the caine' anymore because it's just so much worse and there's no reason to fly it since the spit can out turn, out climb, and out run it. Seems to be like the same with the G.50. Sure, the G.50 was a so-so aircraft but in the turning furballs we have now it should excel. I've read reports that Ace pilots sometimes fought to a draw in Hurricanes and G.50's in the few times the Slow G.50's got into the mix.

right now Im thinking I'm going to be forced to fly the Me-109 in Bnz tactics, or just keep my canopy open in the G.50 at all times since I know i'm going to die.

Might as well get a extra 300 and a pistol. Might have a better chance to stay with the spits in a turn.

[ATAG_Dutch]

What does it take to bounce this aircraft? I bounced a Spit attacking a 110 with a 5000+ ft. E advantage, and he did the old spitfire loop on me and immediately had lead. Lets face it, He entered the same maneuver I followed with, and from a lower energy state ended up in a higher energy state. I wasn't worried about turn fighting with him, because c'mon it's the G.50!...but it seems this isn't isolated. I had a Spit on the edge of stall (actually he did go for a swim later, but i think he just didn't see the water) with his flaps down, yet he was still able to do loops and the like, something I could scarcely follow. I know I have less horsepower, yet I'm about 1,000 pounds or so lighter.

I'm just confused here...and I've noticed this flying the spit myself...what does it take to bleed serious energy from this craft? I've only found myself once stalling other than that pulling off hard turns is a baby frolic

Seriously mate, I think you should try a different game.

[gimpy117]

its okay ill figure it out eventually thanks though. i just find the FM's a little quirky at the moment.
what can I say? Im a stickler for FM's. IMO they make or break a game. If it's discovered a plane flies way over modeled it's Abused; either passively or on purpose. I'll take RoF for example. The Camel was (or maybe still is) way to fast, yet turned very very well. Everybody and their sister was in the camel...and whole planesets had to be made just to counter the thing. Either that or you had to fly on tippy toes when it rolled around.

and just to clear the air, I'm not making any personal attacks at anyone or at least not intentionally anyways.

[SEE]

What did the Spit pilot stuck in my 6 the seconds before ? He twic epulled out 500+meter higher in a CLIMBING TURN !!!!

Frankly, if you are an experienced flyer and still use the Spit in CoD, shame on you (unless you have some sentimental acquaintanceship with her - you know... just like boys and b**bs).
.

Mk. MrX and a many other 109 jockeys don't have much fear of the Spits - they seem to deal with them quite efficiently. I can only assume that they exploit the strengths of the 109 and the shortcomings of the Spit.

You might want to try the same approach rather than label players as being 'shameless' and making daft and innapropriate analogies! Sadly, we have read your anti Spit rhetoric to the point where it becomes rather tedious.

[ATAG_Dutch]

If you get on ATAG's teamspeak3 server, there are lots of people who're only too happy to help advise on all of the issues you've been posting about.

The essences of the game on the ATAG server are teamwork and experience, and without either or both, unless you're a very experienced player/flyer, you're going to 'come a cropper' as the saying goes. That means you're not going to have a very enjoyable experience.

Any of the ATAG group and many others will be more than happy to help you have a good time on the server. You just have to get on teamspeak and fly.

So please come and join in, get involved, you'll find that we're quite a pleasant bunch of chaps. (Usually!) :grin:

[gimpy117]

Mk. MrX and a many other 109 jockeys don't have much fear of the Spits - they seem to deal with them quite efficiently. I can only assume that they exploit the strengths of the 109 and the shortcomings of the Spit.

You might want to try the same approach rather than label players as being 'shameless' and making daft and innapropriate analogies! Sadly, we have read your anti Spit rhetoric to the point where it becomes rather tedious.

thats true, because they fight the spit completely on their terms, and thats what you should do. But im not just curious about the G.50, I thought it was supposed to be a TnB fighter...but it seems not to be the case


If you get on ATAG's teamspeak3 server, there are lots of people who're only too happy to help advise on all of the issues you've been posting about.

The essences of the game on the ATAG server are teamwork and experience, and without either or both, unless you're a very experienced player/flyer, you're going to 'come a cropper' as the saying goes. That means you're not going to have a very enjoyable experience.

Any of the ATAG group and many others will be more than happy to help you have a good time on the server. You just have to get on teamspeak and fly.

So please come and join in, get involved, you'll find that we're quite a pleasant bunch of chaps. (Usually!) :grin:

I'm somewhat experienced flew a lot of RoF for a while, switched mostly to Il2 since it was new.

[fruitbat]

G.50 sucked. I don't even know why its in this game. It flew its first and pretty much only sortie on what most historians class as the very last day of BoB.

For this theatre, what a waste of time.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I'm somewhat experienced flew a lot of RoF for a while, switched mostly to Il2 since it was new.

Well, I fly Rise of Flight too, and the aircraft are in no respects similar to fly.

The Bristol F2B is probably the most similar to a Cliffs of Dover aircraft, but of course it's a good deal slower!

But anyway, Cliffs of Dover is a fine combat flight sim. Sure we all have issues with the FMs, but I'd say it's in a far more subtle way than what you've been suggesting.

See this thread. Why not turn up?

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32134

[Blackdog_kt]

In my case the Spit was always the plane i hated to fly against, was too easy to control and yet, because of this the temptation to fly foolish was too great, so i ended up doing worse in it than when flying other aircraft that require more discipline.

For example, a 190 needs disciplined flying just to fly, so i used that and as a result i wouldn't get into tight situations that often. Whenever i would fly Spit, i would be all like "it's so easy to fly, let's gooooo" and end up getting shot down.

What i'm trying to say is that it was very easy to fly, but not that easy to be good in it.

This carries over to the new simulator series for me to a certain extent, but i'm not making any concrete judgment until the FMs are finalized. With the new systems modelling and CEM, as well as the light armament, i now find it a welcome challenge in certain aspects.

Also, i think that when making comparisons we should be accurate about what we're comparing and if it even matters for the goal at hand.

Is it easy to fly? Sure is.

Can it be countered? Sure can, like any other plane, but this is a big discussion in and of itself, not an "end of discussion" statement.

Is it historically modeled? As with most planes in the sim, not yet.

Saying that it can be countered because a handful of 109 experten run rings around it doesn't hold much value for the average flier in the server. The same is true for saying "you can catch 109s easily in Hurricanes, that player does it all the time on the server".

It just proves it's doable, it doesn't prove it's easy, historically correct or independent of heavily situational parameters. ;)

What i'm trying to say is, let's all take a deep breath and relax, not slag off each other's favorite ride and don't make arguments based on what a handful of virtual aces can do but the rest of us cannot.

Balance should be an issue of mission design after all, not a case of artificially boosting or neutering each aircraft. The aircraft should fly close to the real thing, the mission should create situations to mitigate their advantages if a certain server host wants to create a level playing field for their players.

Also, the FMs are not even final anyway :cool:

If it was up to me i would go for as accurate FMs as possible, accurate ammo loadouts (no 109s running with full minen shells and no Spits running full AP/De Wilde), dynamic online environment with a supply chain modeled via scripts and accurate amounts of aircraft at the start of such an online campaign, leaving only the planning and tactics to the players.

What that means is that the majority of RAF would fly Hurricanes, the luftwaffe would have more aircraft available, but the RAF would have a higher rate of replenishing losses in pilots (virtual lives) and aircraft.

From that point on, it would depend on what targets the players decided to bomb and what the opposition did in terms of CAP and interceptions. If blue players attacked the correct targets and used their fighters correctly, they would probably win, but if the red team bombed blue's aircraft on the ground then blue would have a hard time catching back up and maintaining the numerical advantage.

Otherwise, 1v1 comparisons between aircraft are only good for 1v1 scenarios or small furballs. ;)

[drewpee]

I hope it's not to far into the future that we see improved damage and flight modeling. It's getting pretty frustrating on both side of the channel. I am continually getting into dog fights now with what should be a huge advantage. Getting good solid hits with mg and/or cannon. What follows is a prolonged struggle to keep advantage. Most of my fights now end when after a five minuet struggle a third ac entering to decide the outcome. Most often a ac stalls into the ground from too many evading maneuvers and not from damage.

[TomcatViP]

In my case the Spit was always the plane i hated to fly against, was too easy to control and yet, because of this the temptation to fly foolish was too great, so i ended up doing worse in it than when flying other aircraft that require more discipline.

For example, a 190 needs disciplined flying just to fly, so i used that and as a result i wouldn't get into tight situations that often. Whenever i would fly Spit, i would be all like "it's so easy to fly, let's gooooo" and end up getting shot down.

What i'm trying to say is that it was very easy to fly, but not that easy to be good in it.

This carries over to the new simulator series for me to a certain extent, but i'm not making any concrete judgment until the FMs are finalized. With the new systems modelling and CEM, as well as the light armament, i now find it a welcome challenge in certain aspects.

Also, i think that when making comparisons we should be accurate about what we're comparing and if it even matters for the goal at hand.

Is it easy to fly? Sure is.

Can it be countered? Sure can, like any other plane, but this is a big discussion in and of itself, not an "end of discussion" statement.

Is it historically modeled? As with most planes in the sim, not yet.

Saying that it can be countered because a handful of 109 experten run rings around it doesn't hold much value for the average flier in the server. The same is true for saying "you can catch 109s easily in Hurricanes, that player does it all the time on the server".

It just proves it's doable, it doesn't prove it's easy, historically correct or independent of heavily situational parameters. ;)

What i'm trying to say is, let's all take a deep breath and relax, not slag off each other's favorite ride and don't make arguments based on what a handful of virtual aces can do but the rest of us cannot.

Balance should be an issue of mission design after all, not a case of artificially boosting or neutering each aircraft. The aircraft should fly close to the real thing, the mission should create situations to mitigate their advantages if a certain server host wants to create a level playing field for their players.

Also, the FMs are not even final anyway :cool:

If it was up to me i would go for as accurate FMs as possible, accurate ammo loadouts (no 109s running with full minen shells and no Spits running full AP/De Wilde), dynamic online environment with a supply chain modeled via scripts and accurate amounts of aircraft at the start of such an online campaign, leaving only the planning and tactics to the players.

What that means is that the majority of RAF would fly Hurricanes, the luftwaffe would have more aircraft available, but the RAF would have a higher rate of replenishing losses in pilots (virtual lives) and aircraft.

From that point on, it would depend on what targets the players decided to bomb and what the opposition did in terms of CAP and interceptions. If blue players attacked the correct targets and used their fighters correctly, they would probably win, but if the red team bombed blue's aircraft on the ground then blue would have a hard time catching back up and maintaining the numerical advantage.

Otherwise, 1v1 comparisons between aircraft are only good for 1v1 scenarios or small furballs. ;)

Read it,enjoyed every words in it, printed it and now I am still exerting myself in some kind of native american rain dancing around the print: Hu ha hu ha hu ha hoooo hu ha hu ha hu ha hooo

[bw_wolverine]

Read it,enjoyed every words in it, printed it and now I am still exerting myself in some kind of native american rain dancing around the print: Hu ha hu ha hu ha hoooo hu ha hu ha hu ha hooo

Wow. Just wow.

If the Spitfire is so simple and easy and uber, then it's probably just my imagination that I more often see them getting shot down than doing the shooting.

I think Blackdog is right on with it. It's easy to fly, but hard to fly well. So many real pilots have said that the Spitifre is a gorgeous airplane to fly and reacts almost effortlessly to your control inputs, doing everything you ask of it. Pushing it to its limits properly in combat situations with asymmetrcial aircraft is another matter.

The combat edges we're talking about here can EASILY be explained by the subtle differences in each pilot's individual behaviour, and if there IS something going on, it's not so big that a small tweak won't help.

That spitfire you dove on may have just come out of a dive himself and been carrying quite a bit of speed. Who knows.

I really don't think any more of these 'nerf the 109!' 'nerf the Spitfire!' threads are needed without some actual recorded game video proof. Or a recorded track.

[TomcatViP]

Wolv,

That flying too easy makes you too leasy is a well known fact in Sim.

The prob are not the sleepy pilots in their Uber Spits. I have always praised for an easy mount to be available on online server for the youngest or the new players that want to feel the experience of large dogfight scenario with humans players.

The annoying part of the Spit is when you are fighting hard with someone and your opponent still get the E advantage whatever all the calculations and Tac planning you made... I tell you, this is boring.

I know a particular funny Hurri flown by a player that can run away from my diving 109 after doing a hard turn in front of me. When you see such things, the only trigger you want to press is the shut down button on your PC.

We hve been patient over the years with the silly Spit. We hve been waiting years for this new Sim to surface. Now it's time to change the recipe. That they build an easy FM with another plane and they call it Super Lyslander, Mega Hind, Ultra Gloster, I don't care. But not with the Spit anymore.

[FFCW_Urizen]

If the Hurri outran you tomcat, than sorry mate, you simply didn´t fly your 109 to the full, sorry, you didn´t even fly her anywhere near decent. You made a mistake somewhere, and i can only guess that mistake, but u probably turned with that hurri, now, didn´t you.

[Robo.]

I have always praised for an easy mount to be available on online server for the youngest or the new players that want to feel the experience of large dogfight scenario with humans players.

Yes, that's the 109. ;)

[TomcatViP]

If the Hurri outran you tomcat, than sorry mate, you simply didn´t fly your 109 to the full, sorry, you didn´t even fly her anywhere near decent. You made a mistake somewhere, and i can only guess that mistake, but u probably turned with that hurri, now, didn´t you.

OMG are you seriously writing this ?

You shld mind the readers with a "Pretty boring argument ahead" sign :confused:

Oh and by the way you can outspiral nose up a "normal" hurri* at really slow speed what is pretty accurate with history (common evasive manoeuvre for 109 driver during the war).

*normal means regular FM

[FFCW_Urizen]

Don´t confuse outturning with outrolling, tomcat. the 109 had and still has the upper hand in terms of rollrate, climb and speed over the hurricane. If the Hurri outran you Tomcat and if i say that you made a mistake, than i am not doing so lightly. I´m only a decent 109 driver, but i have yet to encounter a hurri or spit that can outrun me in level flight, especially at alts below 6000m, period.

[TomcatViP]

Don´t confuse outturning with outrolling, tomcat. the 109 had and still has the upper hand in terms of rollrate, climb and speed over the hurricane. If the Hurri outran you Tomcat and if i say that you made a mistake, than i am not doing so lightly. I´m only a decent 109 driver, but i have yet to encounter a hurri or spit that can outrun me in level flight, especially at alts below 6000m, period.

C'mon guys, open your eyes. This specific Hurri does not play the same CoD as we are.

I fly the hurri as much as the 109. I know what I am talking abt. And thx for the professorial comment but I might not need that one ;)

End of boring arguments. BOT pls

[SEE]

OMG are you seriously writing this ?

You shld mind the readers with a "Pretty boring argument ahead" sign :confused:

Oh and by the way you can outspiral nose up a "normal" hurri* at really slow speed what is pretty accurate with history (common evasive manoeuvre for 109 driver during the war).

*normal means regular FM

Rotol Hurri was considered by many as the best Allied fighter available on most servers. So, given your principles regards easymounts, porked FM that favours the 'shameless' please tell us why you frequently selected the Rotol Hurri in MP?

Very odd, given your comments I would have expected you to stick to your principles and select a Tiger moth.......:rolleyes:

[robtek]

Have we reached the personal attacks already?

[TomcatViP]

Rotol Hurri was considered by many as the best Allied fighter available on most servers. So, given your principles regards easymounts, porked FM that favours the 'shameless' please tell us why you frequently selected the Rotol Hurri in MP?

Very odd, given your comments I would have expected you to stick to your principles and select a Tiger moth.......:rolleyes:

Well regarding the Tiger, I did it on ATAG server ! Even had a "dogfight" with a 109 over the airfield (I was playing the bone part).

That brave gentleman did manage to score some non fatal hits at the end using despicable snorkling tactic.

Regarding the Hurri, only at alt > 4000m are the FM starting to look strange if you fly it honestlty (no WEP unless in critical situation etc...). Effectively at alt > 6000 it is superior than the 109. But man, I recall writing this very early ("climb to evade 109 if you hve time to reach that critical alt") and I was joked abt by many on this forum.

And again, there was "regular" hurri and self-standardized ones. Not to open a new debate. ;)

But anyway, there is nothing in commun in the hurri and SPit's FM regarding "E-retention".
Again if you can't see that, blind you are. For example, I could hve writing this flying a spit with the stick fully pulled rearward and still haven't experienced some kind of departed flight :rolleyes: