Invincible Heinkels

[trademe900]

There is a problem I have with the sim that bugs me and that is that the He111 is unbelievably tough.

Do17z's and Ju88's are a great challenge, although I can usually set them alight/tear off some control surfaces/kill everyone inside. The he111 however is an absolute monster. I actually couldn't believe how tough it was before so I put on unlimited ammo, gave one a few diving passes with the usual no effect, then proceeded to sit behind him at the 170m convergence point and observe my furious stream of .30 have no effect, minute after minute. I have done this numerous times and observed it takes about 1000 hits to bring one down. The do17 or ju88 I can bring down in 300 hits.

I know the He111 has an armoured bulkhead behind the pilot but this still does not explain how on earth 1000 hits can not completely obliterate control surfaces and ignite fuel tanks.

Anyone else noticed this?

[pstyle]

I wanna see video now.

Curious of Camberwell.

[Robo.]

Anyone else noticed this?

No.

[ElAurens]

A: Use a Hurricane for bomber attack as it's guns offer a higher concentration of fire.

B: Only fire at or near your gun convergence setting.

C: Make sure your ammo belting is a mix of incendiary and armor piercing only, NO BALL AMMO.

When I was still actively flying in Clod, I found that the HE 111 posed no particular problems for me compared to any other of the German bombers. Taking off the wings outboard of the engines was not difficult.

The really tough bomber is the Fiat BR.20.

[41Sqn_Banks]

It happened to me once or twice so far that I downed two or three Heinkels in one flight in a Spitfire (less concentrated guns and more unstable than Hurricane).

Both occasions happened under the same conditions: The key is the gun convergence and the weak spot wing near the engine.

[Kurfürst]

Shooting the Heinkel fuselage is pointless. It throughly armored and .303s will just bounce off the armored bulkhead.

Aim for then engines/fuel tanks in the wings.

[trademe900]

How many hits can people bring a he111 down in here?

[Osprey]

Shooting the Heinkel fuselage is pointless. It throughly armored and .303s will just bounce off the armored bulkhead.

Aim for then engines/fuel tanks in the wings.

This.

In fact you need to do this on all bombers.

Do-17, just inside one of the engines will cause a fire to blow off a wing
Ju-88, just outside one of the engines will cause a fire to blow off the wing

Br-20, don't know the answer to this yet - they seem very tough indeed.

[Sutts]

How many hits can people bring a he111 down in here?

It really isn't just a matter of how many hits. There are examples of real 111s getting home with many hundreds of hits. A ball or armour piercing .303 round makes a hole, that's all. It's what you hit that matters. Hit a cable, engine component, fuel, oil or coolant tank or line and you'll see some results. Fill the fuselage or wing structure with holes and it'll just carry on flying.

For a long time the damage model in sims was a very simple point scoring system where each bullet hit increased the score until a certain threshold was reached and the aircraft broke or blew up or something.

What we now have is far more advanced/realistic and you have to get your fire concentrated and targeted at the critical components to have any effect at all.

[tools4fools]

How many hits can people bring a he111 down in here?

A hundred hits if hit square and fair in a single pass. 200-250 usually (2-3 passes with good hits). Up to 500 if one is really tough and I don't hit well.

Sitting behind the bomber and peppering him does not give good results. I attack with lots of speed, from side angle and above (or below), open fire at short distance (under 200, convergence set at 150), one short burst if I get him in my sight.
If not - or not enough damage done - get back in to position and then make another pass.
+++++

Btw, BR20 burns easily in center fuselage and sheers off wing at wing root. Easier than He 111 I think.
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[trademe900]

thanks for the replies.

How do you guys attack? Sit right on top of the formation and then dive almost to the vertical through the formation?

I would be really interested to know what the official strategy for the RAF was and what did pilots find they end up doing? Did 2 or more fighters group up to attack one bomber due to .303 ineffectiveness?

I would be really interested to see a video of someone actually doing this effectively. It seems whenever I get right above the formation and dive in, when I get to firing range I end up behind his tail!

The do17z is quite easy to take down, over 200 hits usually. The ju88 requires nearly 400 and he111 I need over 1000 hits!

Thank you Osprey for the invite.

[tools4fools]

Dunno what you do wrong but certainly something...

50-150 hits usually do in a Do17, Ju 88, BR 20.
The Heinkel is tougher, but 200-250 do usually.
The most needed for a Heinkel is about 500; that's when I hit the plane in 'spay and pray' salvos instead of well placed bursts.

So that's roughly half the ammo then you need.

1) What ammo do you use? Ball ammo is not effective as mentioned above

2) What distance you shoot? Probably to far? When training I have the distance counter thingy on and I usually do not open up until below 200. Means I open up at 180-150 and up close to 100-80 or so. Convergence set at 150m.

3) Position. Never from dead 6, useless. From dead straight above diving vertical is difficult, gonna be lightning fast, have to lead the target, difficult to get target in sight, only a snap burst possible due to very high closing speed. I prefer above and a bit set back, but not too much. Then approach in a nice 'round' swoop, about 45 degrees to the target if possible, but often less than that, I guess 25 degrees. I go into the attack at a distance of 800-1200, depending on the speed, and the final approach from about 500-400 on. Means if my attack position wasn't good and at 500-400 I see that I will end up directly behind the target I pull up and to the side once more to come in better for shooting approach. Hit and miss however as things happen so fast that I don't get a always shot at those last second corrections.

4) You end up directly behind the target - at what speed? When I attack I always end up above and ahead of the bugger due to high closing speed. Fire the burst, pull up (or sometimes down) to avoid collision, and up, up she goes...positioning for the next attack.

I go into FMB, set up one Hurri against whatever bomber and practice, practice, practice...
++++++

Add: After quite a few more test flights I have to say that I haven't been able to set a He 111 on fire so far, no engine fires. Only stream of thin white smoke or thin black smoke and plane going into a uncontrollable dive or said explosion near wing root. But a engine fire, nope, not seen that.
++++++

[trademe900]

that's very useful.

Yes the He111 is extremely hard to set on fire, it just seems to ever so slowly descend after leaking all of it's oil as the motor slows. It usually gets back to France though! It is extremely hard to down.

[kendo65]

Add: After quite a few more test flights I have to say that I haven't been able to set a He 111 on fire so far, no engine fires. Only stream of thin white smoke or thin black smoke and plane going into a uncontrollable dive or said explosion near wing root. But a engine fire, nope, not seen that.
++++++

I see very few fires generally in the game, and certainly nothing like some of the pics produced pre-release.

Have the effects been toned down due to performance?

[Glider]

Just an observation about the BR20. The Japanese used the BR20 in 1939 I think over China and quickly replaced them as they were too fragile. If the Japanese replaced them because they were too weak, then something must be wrong in the game if they are tougher than the German bombers

[tools4fools]

Just an observation about the BR20. The Japanese used the BR20 in 1939 I think over China and quickly replaced them as they were too fragile. If the Japanese replaced them because they were too weak, then something must be wrong in the game if they are tougher than the German bombers

BR 20 is way easier to bring down than a He 111. Engine burns and center fuselage burns big nice and easy.

Tried the Me 110 against the He 111 to see what a little extra firepower does to the bird.
Not that difficult to take out, even got fires quite often, outside of the engines, in the wing.
However as much as I try no engine fire ever so far. I had BR 20, Do 17's un Ju 88's, Wellingtons and Blenheims, all engine fires at some time. No engine fires on the He 111 however.

To me it's ok overall, I don't expect fires all the time, in particular not from 0.303's
If I look at Me 110 guns or even G50 guns I have to say they are quite effective, nothing wrong there overall it seems.

Just no engine fires in He 111's it seems...
+++++

[trademe900]

OK I still can't seem to down a he111 solidly everytime with limited ammo. Tried so many times now.

Could I please see a video of someone doing it?

[trademe900]

Ok update...

The ammo loadouts make an insane difference. I just tried loading every gun with dewilde and I can blow the wing off an he111 every time without fail. Ridiculous. It looks like the dewilde is the only useful round.

Now things are at the complete opposite end of the scale.

Completely unrealistic to have the wing blow off these bombers everytime instantly. Documentation shows that they burnt for a long time. Once the game is actually playable, this is an issue that needs to be discussed.

[TomcatViP]

You are absolutely right. The ammo limitation is the next big issue to discuss in this sim.

I restricted myself to default load out and don't fly anymore in the E4. Much more realistic that way.