Should 1c finally be concerned about competition? Eagle Dynamics "Flying Legends".

[danjama]

http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=164

Although very little is known yet, ED have announed their upcoming Flying Legends series. We know that it will begin with the Mustang, which will have armament options and attack capability. It has been predicted that maps and opponents will arrive with the Pony, but not been confirmed or announced.

It's been a good few years since anything rivalled IL2 and 1C. IMO, If Eagle Dynamics have their eyes open to the misery with regards to CloD, then they will 'grasp the bull by the horns' as it were, and develop their very own WW2 combat simulator. To be honest, they'd be stupid not to.

We all had such loyalty for 1c, and I am certain we all believed this was the one release that could not possibly go wrong or wreck that loyalty. That's all been shattered for much of the community. How do you feel about the ED Legends series? It has the potential to be everything we ever wanted, especially if it's relatively scaleable and has a good dynamic campaign and online options. Would you leave 1c products behind if this turned out to be true?

I think this is an important time to ask this question, with all of the recent comments from BlackSix about no more updates due to some attitudes here, and the silencing over the patch.

Flying Legends is down to be released in 2012, preferably the first half. If it is anything more than a study sim, Luther et al should perhaps be more concerned with how they're developing their sim and how they're treating their customer base.

[ATAG_Bliss]

ED promised they were working on dedicated server files so real dedicated machines could host MP games back when A10 was in beta. That still hasn't happened yet.

So I suppose how they treat their customer base is all based on the opinion of what you expect. I doubt I'll ever see any sort of dedicated server files to host with and therefore to me, DCS is just money down the drain.

[Skoshi Tiger]

http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=164

Although very little is known yet, ED have announed their upcoming Flying Legends series. We know that it will begin with the Mustang, which will have armament options and attack capability. It has been predicted that maps and opponents will arrive with the Pony, but not been confirmed or announced.

It's been a good few years since anything rivalled IL2 and 1C. IMO, If Eagle Dynamics have their eyes open to the misery with regards to CloD, then they will 'grasp the bull by the horns' as it were, and develop their very own WW2 combat simulator. To be honest, they'd be stupid not to.


The two sims are completle different. With the only flyable a Mustang it will limit the combat theatre to about 1943 onwards, that plus the lack of a single flyable opponent would serverly restrict the attractiveness of flying online missions



We all had such loyalty for 1c, and I am certain we all believed this was the one release that could not possibly go wrong or wreck that loyalty. That's all been shattered for much of the community.


Please don't talk on behalf of me. My experience with the sim is completely opposite. I believe that the sim is a Diamond in the rough and that the Developers are doing all they can to fix it. Each patch that has been released has fixed problems and added to the performace of the sim. What more could I reasonably ask for?


How do you feel about the ED Legends series? It has the potential to be everything we ever wanted, especially if it's relatively scaleable and has a good dynamic campaign and online options. Would you leave 1c products behind if this turned out to be true?

I think this is an important time to ask this question, with all of the recent comments from BlackSix about no more updates due to some attitudes here, and the silencing over the patch.

Flying Legends is down to be released in 2012, preferably the first half. If it is anything more than a study sim, Luther et al should perhaps be more concerned with how they're developing their sim and how they're treating their customer base.

I have currently got Black Shark and their A10 sim. Both are fine bits of software. A10 took a year of open beta to get it into a releaseable state. It still is not perfect.

Just from a immersion point of view I find that I am spending most of my time flying online in COD.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks.

[CWMV]

Lets not forget that each patch has also added problems...memory leak anyone?

As much as I hate it no, 1C has nothing to worry about. They are still the only thing going for a combat flight sim in WW2, and will be for the foreseeable future.

Unless 777 has something up their sleeve (please god please!)

[Troll2k]

Most people dismiss these as arcade but Gaijin has War Thunder and Wargaming.net has World Of Warplanes coming out.Both are in beta.I believe both are Russian.

World Of War Planes
http://na.worldofwarplanes.com/

War Thunder
http://warthunder.com/en/

[Ctrl E]

yep. support DCS. vote with your wallet.

[Hooves]

AS it stands at this very moment, no I wouldnt jump ship. But if it comes with playable opponents and a promise of more A/C down the line then yes I would be tempted seriously.

CloD, is great and will be greater in the near future (COME ON PATCH!!!!!!!!) so for now 1C has a solid customer in me, but being American and brought up in a Free market.... To the winner go the spoils. if DCS shows me a reason I should pick them up, Ill do it.

[Robert]

Why no room for both games on your hard drives? I've got Balck Shark, IL2, X Plane 9 and RoF on my PC.

The topic sounds more like a threat than an actual look at something interesting and fun for our hobby.

If you're honestly that dismayed at what's going on at 1C and the condition of the game, then why stick around and make hollow threats? Makes no sense to me.

[Hooves]

Was that at me? i am not dismayed with 1C like CloD. But if something better comes out why would I not switch? Are you not familiar with free market capitalism? lol

Its not an issue of space on the hard drive, more like space in my schedule.

[Robert]

No. Just in general. I was pondering aloud and not directing at anyone in particular, hooves. :D

[ElAurens]

With DCS's glacial pace of adding new content, I'd say Maddox games should start to be worried, oh in about 2035.

[Verhängnis]

http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=164

[...]
We all had such loyalty for 1c, and I am certain we all believed this was the one release that could not possibly go wrong or wreck that loyalty. That's all been shattered for much of the community. How do you feel about the ED Legends series? It has the potential to be everything we ever wanted, especially if it's relatively scaleable and has a good dynamic campaign and online options. [...]

Thought I would underline the key words in that paragraph. Because as far as I can tell, CoD has the potential to be anything aswell, and the series has even turned out to be more than we wanted. ;)

1C is still the top, because now that we have all bought their broken product, we now expect it to be fixed so we get what we paid for. So in the end 1C CoD is still the top.

...Besides, who wants to fly a Mustang? :confused:

[Skoshi Tiger]

T
...Besides, who wants to fly a Mustang? :confused: without a 190' to shoot down!!! ;)

[Conmane]

It's easy and cheap enough to get both of the games, and then see which one you like best. Atleast I don't always trust other people's opinions about games, I have to try them myself.

Sure, I'm probably going to end up playing one more than the other, but I don't think bying the other would have been a waste of money or time.

Uh... Just my 2 cents I guess. :P

[trademe900]

Good post, it's a very real possibility. It's true, you really wouldn't have to try that hard to be honest. Take Birds of Prey, give it a makeover with simulation flight and damage models and everyone will be jumping ship. The community has been treated to a rort and only those who are blindly in love with their captors will cling on.

[David198502]

if it will be as detailed and realistically modeled as A10, then i will certainly buy it.
and if they are clever, and model at least one oponent for it, 1c will have a hard time to keep me personally as a customer.
dont get me wrong...i really like clod, but its lacking in so many ways, and even its strengths like CEM are only half baked.
and especially in this aspect, i expect the mustang to be much more accurate than what we have in clod now.and thats what i want, i want it to get as realistical as possible.
i would prefer 2 realistic modeled planes , over 20 half realistical ones...

[He111]

YUK! mustang! what sort of interesting, against the odds campaign can one create for a mustang?

Give me a defiant, a d1ke-breeder CO and sky full of Emil aces anyday! :grin:

.

[Verhängnis]

Good post, it's a very real possibility. It's true, you really wouldn't have to try that hard to be honest. Take Birds of Prey, give it a makeover with simulation flight and damage models and everyone will be jumping ship. The community has been treated to a rort and only those who are blindly in love with their captors will cling on.

You must be stupid, honestly if it were that simple then do you not think they would have just done that in the first place - or did Oleg and Co just decide it would be fun to crash the business on takeoff? :rolleyes:

[6S.Manu]

if it will be as detailed and realistically modeled as A10, then i will certainly buy it.
and if they are clever, and model at least one oponent for it, 1c will have a hard time to keep me personally as a customer.
dont get me wrong...i really like clod, but its lacking in so many ways, and even its strengths like CEM are only half baked.
and especially in this aspect, i expect the mustang to be much more accurate than what we have in clod now.and thats what i want, i want it to get as realistical as possible.
i would prefer 2 realistic modeled planes , over 20 half realistical ones...
Totally.

DCS: P-51 s going to be used as marketing probe: ED will try to catch customers from the CloD's failure while the WW2 fans can try a realistic simulator (since CloD's CEM is a joke).

I have faith.

[tintifaxl]

They should definitely be concerned about competition. As every company should be.

I have stopped flying CloD as it has nothing to offer for me right now, instead I fly DCS-A10C and Rise Of Flight. I would not have started to fly these sims, if CloD had been in a better state than it was (and is) after the last patch.

As long as the game play problems are not solved, I'll not fly it again. If DCS-P51D comes out before AI, FM, DM and radio are fixed in CloD, I fear I'll not return to the MG series for quite some time.

[Buzpilot]

ED have 150% larger map (populated area) than CloD, 64 bit (no stutter), and I think CloD will get in big trouble if they want to implement all their plans, if they don't get into 64 bit fast.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Why no room for both games on your hard drives? I've got Balck Shark, IL2, X Plane 9 and RoF on my PC.

The topic sounds more like a threat than an actual look at something interesting and fun for our hobby.

If you're honestly that dismayed at what's going on at 1C and the condition of the game, then why stick around and make hollow threats? Makes no sense to me.

+1

Besides, the DCS 'environment' leaves me cold. The landscape is less interesting than say, the Slovakia map in 1946. The 'atmospherics' can't compare with 'Cliffs' in any serious way IMO.

I had a fun time learning the full real systems on the Warthog, but once I'd learned them, didn't pick the sim/game up again in any serious way.

I can see that for dedicated Mustang fans, the new expansion'll be fun, but we'll see. Given time for both camps to evolve, in 5 years time we'll be able to make a substantial comparitive evaluation. No offence to the OP, but to say that 1C had better watch out simply because of a Mustang on the horizon is I think a little premature.

[Raggz]

DCS is bringing in one WWII plane into a modern era map makes no competition for IL2 at all. Unless DCS decides to make a new WWII game aka Lock On and the Mustang being some kind of a try-out.
The Mustang is just a collectors piece so to speak :)

[BigC208]

Would I buy the P51 for the DCS universe? Yes. Would 1C have anything to worry about? No. Right now I have RoF, DCS A10, Il21946 and Il2 CoD on my harddrive and they get a 20-10-10-60% workout. On the noncombat side I play around a bit with the accusim Spitfire for FSX. I think the DCS P51 will be a blast to learn to fly properly. After that's accomplished, unless a ME109 or FW190 show up, it'll only get flown every now and then, just like my Accusim Spitfire. Now, if RoF ever get's it in it's head to get full on into the Spanish Civil War or WWII theatres, 1C might have something to worry about IF it's still buggy.

[danjama]

Good replies so far. I didn't mean to cause offence to anybody, whether happy with 1c or not. Sorry if that came across.

I think either many of you have tunnel vision (suggesting that it is JUST a Mustang, when it is flaunted as the 'Flying Legends' series), or i'm being too enthusiastic by predicting the future of ED's Legends series. For sure there is nothing official or announced, such as opponents or terrain, but there's also nothing to say these things are not on their roadmap.

I think we can all acknowledge that ED are not the fastest company in producing patches or updates, and they certainly haven't had the best business model so far. But take note, there is now a seperate development team for this series from ED. There is nothing to suggest that they do not have much bigger plans, and that they will not update their series regularly, ala RoF.

I'm not meaning to attack CloD or 1c in any way with this thread. I'm just genuinely excited about the possibility of a new WW2 air series, especially if it involves the detail ED are known for, with eventually lots of different planes. However, neither I or any of you can deny the amount of unhappy customers on this forum lately. So that's what prompted me to start this thread. Nothing against 1c.

We should all be excited about this potential product. I agree completely that they will have to learn to populate the terrains better, and create a better atmosphere, but that is something that should come naturally as they develop and research the theatre, and realise that maps can be a lot smaller than they are with Jet combat aircraft.

P.S. Not happy that this has been moved to the lounge, where it will likely not be seen by visitors. It's relevant enough to CloD to stay on the main page IMO. So, thanks for that mods.

(Almost forgot, the series is being produced with the help of 'The Fighter Collection' of Duxford. For an idea of what might be coming, maybe we can look at their current, past and future acquisitions).

[trademe900]

Good point danjama, there are indeed far too many with tunnel vision who are much too in love with their captors, who have basically extorted them if you consider what the game was said to be like. This is obvious through the sheer madness of folks who are on their knees with adoration for the 'privilege' of Friday updates! Outright exploitation of the community.

I think it would be a good thing if people were not so close minded and instead excited of the prospect of a new ww2 sim. Healthy competition is exactly what would benefit this genre and prevent disasters like Clod.

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

Good point danjama, there are indeed far too many with tunnel vision who are much too in love with their captors, who have basically extorted them if you consider what the game was said to be like. This is obvious through the sheer madness of folks who are on their knees with adoration for the 'privilege' of Friday updates! Outright exploitation of the community.

I think it would be a good thing if people were not so close minded and instead excited of the prospect of a new ww2 sim. Healthy competition is exactly what would benefit this genre and prevent disasters like Clod.

If the two actualy competed you might have a point, clearly two different products that share a common theater.

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

To any of you claiming disaster and ruin for our favorite genre I recomend as an example you read through reviews and early forums for Rise of Flight at release(a sim detractors of CoD commonly refer to)...very rocky start to say the least...so rocky the company was sold, bad reviews and big mouth forum flyers do wonders for new sims:rolleyes: that survive mostly through a select few developers willing to risk there professional futures for the love of ww2 combat flight simulator's, a genre with shrinking profits and community filled with members dedicated and willing to do anything to spread there negative opinion(over and over) of a flight sim that is still developing, to the dismay of posible new members that might become our future aces.

[ATAG_Doc]

+1 goes to the dude above.

[Sven]

Meh, I like the DCS series, but I never play them for long.
The online experience of player vs player in CoD MP is just so much more attractive and rewarding to me and never gets old even in 1946.
I might just buy it, but I'm not a big fan of the Mustang, hope they add an oponent ( FW190D/Me-262 )

[Sternjaeger II]

well I suppose it's all down to what people look into a flight sim.
Does the DCS Mustang look promising? Hell yeah! Will it actually be the beginning of a serious competition? It's too early to say.

It will be down to the level of detail of the plane, the quality of the flight model and damage model, the overall feel of realism it gives you once you're inside..

It's a bit risky to develop such a project and leave it without something to shoot at, I suppose they'll use it as a benchmark and decide what to do from there.

As for the landscape, if we could combine the level of detail of CloD with the colour palette of DCS stuff, we wouldn't have to go out anymore! ;-)

[Wolf_Rider]

Gotta keep in mind though that The Fighter Collection (which Eagle Dynamics are very much a part of) is an aviation museum and they have a few of the old warbirds (airworthy) in their stable, of which, the P51 was a small ED project, which grew in size enough to warrant release in its own right.


The thing of the P51 must have a target and adversary is pure "kill fixation" from those who have no concept of what the original project was and no appreciation for a study sim.... no appreciation whatsoever, and consideration that a museum can exist in an electronic format..

[Skoshi Tiger]

Gotta keep in mind though that The Fighter Collection (which Eagle Dynamics are very much a part of) is an aviation museum and they have a few of the old warbirds (airworthy) in their stable, of which, the P51 was a small ED project, which grew in size enough to warrant release in its own right.


The thing of the P51 must have a target and adversary is pure "kill fixation" from those who have no concept of what the original project was and no appreciation for a study sim.... no appreciation whatsoever, and consideration that a museum can exist in an electronic format..

But if you go back to the original topic which is "Should 1C finally be conserned..." you need to compare the two sims on a single playing field. COD is a combat flight sim.

If we are discussing if 1C should be concerned then we have to judge the Mustang sim on that field. It doesn't matter how good a study sim it is, until there is a decent plane set and a contempory environment for it to operate in it's usefullness as a combat sim will be limited.

Also as a single flyable plane combat flight sim, how good will DCS's AI be as an opponent??

[Sternjaeger II]

The thing of the P51 must have a target and adversary is pure "kill fixation" from those who have no concept of what the original project was and no appreciation for a study sim.... no appreciation whatsoever, and consideration that a museum can exist in an electronic format..

well if that's the purpose, I doubt you'd find something more accurate than the A2A projects.

[Wolf_Rider]

well if that's the purpose, I doubt you'd find something more accurate than the A2A projects.



except for the FSX platform they fly on




If we are discussing if 1C should be concerned then we have to judge the Mustang sim on that field. It doesn't matter how good a study sim it is, until there is a decent plane set and a contempory environment for it to operate in it's usefullness as a combat sim will be limited.



but that the thing... who says it has to be a combat sim though?
The original il2 was a study sim, has that been forgotten??
Would it be incorrect to judge the ED P51 in its own field? (it is after all, the only way to get a fair comparison ;) )

[danjama]

except for the FSX platform they fly on




but that the thing... who says it has to be a combat sim though?
The original il2 was a study sim, has that been forgotten??
Would it be incorrect to judge the ED P51 in its own field? (it is after all, the only way to get a fair comparison ;) )

At this point, it's incorrect to assume it is anything. But consider, it could be planned as a study sim, but being flexible developers, as I suggested they might spot the gap in the market (disappointed 1c customers, lack of any potential late-war theatre sim) and try and plug it.

I also disagree that the original il2 was a study sim, considering there were other aircraft included as flyable, and an entire theatre of war with weapons/targets.

[danjama]

The thing of the P51 must have a target and adversary is pure "kill fixation" from those who have no concept of what the original project was and no appreciation for a study sim.... no appreciation whatsoever, and consideration that a museum can exist in an electronic format..

That's slightly arrogant. It is possible to appreciate a study sim, and hope that it becomes more. It's also possible, I suppose, to have a study sim, as well as a combat sim in one package, as ED have shown with their other projects.

[David198502]

+1

Besides, the DCS 'environment' leaves me cold. The landscape is less interesting than say, the Slovakia map in 1946. The 'atmospherics' can't compare with 'Cliffs' in any serious way IMO.

I had a fun time learning the full real systems on the Warthog, but once I'd learned them, didn't pick the sim/game up again in any serious way.

I can see that for dedicated Mustang fans, the new expansion'll be fun, but we'll see. Given time for both camps to evolve, in 5 years time we'll be able to make a substantial comparitive evaluation. No offence to the OP, but to say that 1C had better watch out simply because of a Mustang on the horizon is I think a little premature.

i dont know, but in my view, clod's landscape is in many aspects inferiour to the slowakia map as well.
although it is incredible detailed(they modeled single leafs on trees) in some areas, the overall feeling is not at all convincing.

im not a fan of the mustang in any way, but i want it realistic.and if they would include a german figher, 1c would have to make the planes as realistic to keep me playing and buying their products.

[Wolf_Rider]

That's slightly arrogant. It is possible to appreciate a study sim, and hope that it becomes more. It's also possible, I suppose, to have a study sim, as well as a combat sim in one package, as ED have shown with their other projects.

nah... its not arrogant at all, though it is perhaps slightly cynical :cool: and you're exactly right in it is possible to appreciate a study sim for what it is, which is what I'm saying





I also disagree that the original il2 was a study sim



you're in for a shock then, 'cause that what it was...

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

nah... its not arrogant at all, though it is perhaps slightly cynical :cool: and you're exactly right in it is possible to appreciate a study sim for what it is, which is what I'm saying





you're in for a shock then, 'cause that what it was...

you pressed the ez button and all the planes started...hmm thats a study sim?

[Wolf_Rider]

nooo... that's pressing the ez button ;)