Another Holywood Boo Boo

[Richie]

I'm surprised at this one. Although there were a lot of brutes as far as treatment goes in POW camps as far as the Japanese Army goes here's something that totally threw me for a loop. I was listening to CBC radio this morning, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for those not in the know. Anyway a man from Victoria BC was on David Bucham was his name. He was talking about the movie Empire Of The Sun and how the whole situation at the camp was backwards. Hayashi the man who was the head man at the camp according to testimony after testimony and there were many of them was a total gentleman. Those were the words used. Anyone who got sick got the best care possible. No one was ever harmed. The reason these Boo Boos bug me is people watch these films and take them for fact. Especially when they're made by someone like Spielberg

[klem]

Ever compared 'Pearl Harbour' with 'Tora Tora Tora'? I'm not saying TTT was a perfect representation of history but it was better than the Mills & Boone PH version.

One film I would like to see made is of the book "Dunkirk - the men they left behind". I met one if them last year and read the book as a result. Some of the things that happened on the forced march to Germany were as bad as some of the Japanese stories. Well, perhaps its better left in the past. I don't suppose any side was whiter than white.

As we're considering fiction and reality I am reading a book called "74 Squadron" written by Ira "Taffy" Jones and published in 1954. It even has 3/6d printed into the cover (that's 17.5P to the newer guys). Its a no-punches-pulled view of his former enemy by a man whose life was blighted by two world wars. He flew in the 74 "Tigers" Squadron with Mannock in WWI and there was none of that chivalry business. "Send then down sizzling" (Mannock), shooting parachuting Balloon spotters, strafing enemy aircrew when they crash landed and the German pilots were the same apparently. He carried his own personal hatred into WWII when he was in command of Training establishments and trained guys like Sailor Malan who he feels didn't pull any punches either. It probably wouldn't be printed today, not PC.

[Richie]

There's a few

http://www.imdb.com/find?q=Dunkirk&s=all

[Richie]

Ever compared 'Pearl Harbour' with 'Tora Tora Tora'? I'm not saying TTT was a perfect representation of history but it was better than the Mills & Boone PH version.

One film I would like to see made is of the book "Dunkirk - the men they left behind". I met one if them last year and read the book as a result. Some of the things that happened on the forced march to Germany were as bad as some of the Japanese stories. Well, perhaps its better left in the past. I don't suppose any side was whiter than white.

As we're considering fiction and reality I am reading a book called "74 Squadron" written by Ira "Taffy" Jones and published in 1954. It even has 3/6d printed into the cover (that's 17.5P to the newer guys). Its a no-punches-pulled view of his former enemy by a man whose life was blighted by two world wars. He flew in the 74 "Tigers" Squadron with Mannock in WWI and there was none of that chivalry business. "Send then down sizzling" (Mannock), shooting parachuting Balloon spotters, strafing enemy aircrew when they crash landed and the German pilots were the same apparently. He carried his own personal hatred into WWII when he was in command of Training establishments and trained guys like Sailor Malan who he feels didn't pull any punches either. It probably wouldn't be printed today, not PC.




Oh ....and of course. Tora Tora Tora and The Battle Of Britain are the only two films you don't feel like a total lawn slug for flying blue after watching them and this doc..Battle of Britain: The Real Story. Usually the Japanese and Germans are screaming bloody murder half the time..in Hollywood films anyway.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPYT0p9CZws&feature=relmfu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWoj0TWEQY&feature=relmfu

[whoarmongar]

I can recomend Erik Lomaxs book "The Railwayman" for anyone interested in the effect of torture on the victim and perpetrator.

[nearmiss]

I'm surprised at this one. Although there were a lot of brutes as far as treatment goes in POW camps as far as the Japanese Army goes here's something that totally threw me for a loop. I was listening to CBC radio this morning, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for those not in the know. Anyway a man from Victoria BC was on David Bucham was his name. He was talking about the movie Empire Of The Sun and how the whole situation at the camp was backwards. Hayashi the man who was the head man at the camp according to testimony after testimony and there were many of them was a total gentleman. Those were the words used. Anyone who got sick got the best care possible. No one was ever harmed. The reason these Boo Boos bug me is people watch these films and take them for fact. Especially when they're made by someone like Spielberg

Your little note about Spielberg is really inapproprate at the end of your posting. It's like everything you said relates to his productions. That is entirely out of context.

Spielberg is one of the greatest directors and producers... He marches to his own music, and produces consistent hits that people want to see and appreciate, i.e., Jaws, E-T, Shindler's List, and so on.

The man understand entertainment and you will be entertained when you view any of his works.

He doesn't write the stories, which he has said many, many times. He communicates them in a way that is entertaining.

So, if the story isn't true or he doesn't dig into the historical record to corroborate all claims and lies is that his fault. He is making entertainment. I respect what he does, even if I did think Saving Private Ryan was a corny story that was embellished with the atrocities of war.

[fruitbat]

Anyone who thinks there're getting history from films which are designed primarily for entertainment is a fool.

Its just unfortunate that there are so many fools who then think that this is fact.

So many idiots, so few bullets.

[Sternjaeger II]

I'm surprised at this one. Although there were a lot of brutes as far as treatment goes in POW camps as far as the Japanese Army goes here's something that totally threw me for a loop. I was listening to CBC radio this morning, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for those not in the know. Anyway a man from Victoria BC was on David Bucham was his name. He was talking about the movie Empire Of The Sun and how the whole situation at the camp was backwards. Hayashi the man who was the head man at the camp according to testimony after testimony and there were many of them was a total gentleman. Those were the words used. Anyone who got sick got the best care possible. No one was ever harmed. The reason these Boo Boos bug me is people watch these films and take them for fact. Especially when they're made by someone like Spielberg

if people watch these movies and takes them for facts they probably need a better education or simply need to learn reading, so they can read the bit where it says "the facts and names portrayed in this movie are purely fictional and not based on real events" :rolleyes:

I frankly think the main issue is that we tend to portray things like the war from one perspective only, which is painful and limiting.

We need more movies like "Stalingrad", "Das Boot" or even "Schindler's List" to have a more fair portrayal of the war end the people involved in it.

It's not like all the Nazis were evil monsters or the Allies were all good people that did only good.

The time of propaganda linked to WW2 should be long gone, but some stereotypes are hard to kill.

[ATAG_Doc]

Richie. You are having what is called an epiphany. Yes! People are that gullible. We need them types because if they didn't exist who would buy everything you sold them? No one would be making money. Someone has to buy it. How else are you going to afford that yacht hmmm???

[nearmiss]

by sternjaeger "It's not like all the Nazis were evil monsters or the Allies were all good people that did only good. "

I recall viewing some WW2 films where Eisenhower made German people living in proximity of concentration camps to walk through those camps for posterity. Yes, I think it was viable because he knew those atrocities would be swept under the table with time.

People should not blame German people in total. I don't, Hitler took away their guns and all ability of the people to organize and resist. The German people became pawns to do his will. Hitler had Brown Shirts, Gestapo, and SS. Some of the smartest and brightest murders ever to grace this earth to do Hitler's will. What person or groups of persons in their right mind could build an insurgency against such pervasive forces. There was no way they could build any resistance suffcient to overthrow the Nazis.

All three of the Hitler police forces could kill anyone (including Germans) on the spot with no trial or recourse for murder.

[David Hayward]

The Germans had more than enough guns to stop Hitler. There were millions of Germans in the military with enough guns to fight all the way to Moscow. They could have stopped Hitler any time they wanted to. Very few tried.

[nearmiss]

The Germans had more than enough guns to stop Hitler. There were millions of Germans in the military with enough guns to fight all the way to Moscow. They could have stopped Hitler any time they wanted to. Very few tried.

Can you prove that?

[bw_wolverine]

Maybe that would have been better phrased "Not all Germans (or Axis forces) were evil".

I don't like the idea of painting the Nazis as 'well, some were okay'. That's all some people need to justify themselves. I'm pretty sure no one is identifying themselves as one of the 'good' nazis.

[David Hayward]

Can you prove that?

Prove what? That there were millions of Germans armed to the teeth in the German military? That seems to be pretty self evident.

That very few tried to stop Hitler? Unless there was a giant conspiracy that has been kept secret since WW2, this is also self evident.

[David Hayward]

Maybe that would have been better phrased "Not all Germans (or Axis forces) were evil".

I don't like the idea of painting the Nazis as 'well, some were okay'. That's all some people need to justify themselves. I'm pretty sure no one is identifying themselves as one of the 'good' nazis.

Yeah, good luck to anyone making a movie showing the "good" Nazis.

[nearmiss]

Prove what? That there were millions of Germans armed to the teeth in the German military? That seems to be pretty self evident.

That very few tried to stop Hitler? Unless there was a giant conspiracy that has been kept secret since WW2, this is also self evident.


Nope that is no proof of ability to resist Hitler. Civilians were forbidden to have guns on penalty of death. Many were killed by Gestapo when Hitler issued to order for people to turn in their guns. Just carrying a gun even to turn it in was cause for death by Gestapo.

[David Hayward]

Nope that is no proof of ability to resist Hitler. Civilians were forbidden to have guns on penalty of death. Many were killed by Gestapo when Hitler issued to order for people to turn in their guns. Just carrying a gun even to turn it in was cause for death by Gestapo.

I'm not talking about the civilians. I'm talking about the millions of Germans in the military. They had more then enough guns to stop Hitler.

[Richie]

Your little note about Spielberg is really inapproprate at the end of your posting. It's like everything you said relates to his productions. That is entirely out of context.

Spielberg is one of the greatest directors and producers... He marches to his own music, and produces consistent hits that people want to see and appreciate, i.e., Jaws, E-T, Shindler's List, and so on.

The man understand entertainment and you will be entertained when you view any of his works.

He doesn't write the stories, which he has said many, many times. He communicates them in a way that is entertaining.

So, if the story isn't true or he doesn't dig into the historical record to corroborate all claims and lies is that his fault. He is making entertainment. I respect what he does, even if I did think Saving Private Ryan was a corny story that was embellished with the atrocities of war.

That's why I was so surprised at Empire Of The Sun when I heard the real story. It's the opposite of what's in the movie as far as how the commander of the camp behaves.








Anyway lock this you guys are getting stupid.

[louisv]

I'm not talking about the civilians. I'm talking about the millions of Germans in the military. They had more then enough guns to stop Hitler.

There was something on TV the other day, it seems there were a bunch of conspiracies against Hitler from members of the german army, not just the one everybody knows about...

[fruitbat]

There was something on TV the other day, it seems there were a bunch of conspiracies against Hitler from members of the german army, not just the one everybody knows about...

And they pretty much all ended up with the conspirators dead. something Mr Hayward seems to have missed.

[David Hayward]

There was something on TV the other day, it seems there were a bunch of conspiracies against Hitler from members of the german army, not just the one everybody knows about...

How many tried to stop Hitler?

[David Hayward]

And they pretty much all ended up with the conspirators dead. something Mr Hayward seems to have missed.

Leaving only a few million others to take up the fight.

[fruitbat]

How many tried to stop Hitler?

how easy do you think it was?

it was almost certain death trying to do so.

[David Hayward]

how easy do you think it was?

it was almost certain death trying to do so.

It wasn't easy march all the way to Moscow, either. They managed to do that.

[fruitbat]

It wasn't easy march all the way to Moscow, either. They managed to do that.

Yes, cause they would of been shot if they hadn't. And there's the rub.

[bw_wolverine]

Methinks this thread is speeding towards Locksville, USA.

Hindsight is 20/20. There are plenty of things that shouldn't have happened. Let's hope history never repeats itself where this sort of thing is concerned.

[David Hayward]

Yes, cause they would of been shot if they hadn't. And there's the rub.

They had lots of guns. They could have shot back.

[fruitbat]

And does everyone have this epiphany at the same time (based on knowledge we have in the future), or does someone try to arrange this with out dying in the process (as happened), again ignoring the fact that the average german solider doesn't know hardly anything about, what the nazis leadership is doing at this time.

enjoy fantasy land, and maybe google a 'totalitarian regime'

[David Hayward]

And does everyone have this epiphany at the same time (based on knowledge we have in the future), or does someone try to arrange this with out dying in the process (as happened), again ignoring the fact that the average german solider doesn't know hardly anything about, what the nazis leadership is doing at this time.

enjoy fantasy land, and maybe google a 'totalitarian regime'

They did it in Libya. They're doing it right now in Syria.

[fruitbat]

and you can't see no difference between those examples, correct?

[whoarmongar]

Yeah, good luck to anyone making a movie showing the "good" Nazis.

I could envisage a film about a "Good Nazi" being a success if released at the moment.
The anti-hero seems to be in vogue at the moment, look at a series like "Dexter" a huge hit, where the hero is a serial killer. Once upon a time vampires were evil, stank like the grave and were certainly all badies deserving nothing more than a stake through the heart, preferably during the day whilst they slept and were defenceless. Now theyre sexy misunderstood teenage characters that teenage girls want to snog.
The Nazis didnt come to power in Germany with a manifesto that said, First were going to create a police state within Germany and murder anyone who opposes us, then were going to launch an allout total war against all our european neighbours bombing defenceless cities and occuping these countries, then we will launch a barbarous inhumane attack against Russia. Finally we will systematically murder millions of jews and other "undesirables"simply because we dont think they diserve to live.

The Nazis come to power promising to "fix" a broken country blaming the western powers the bolshoviks and "Jewish bankers" (a not totally unreasonable argument at the time) for Germanys ills, this arguement could easily seduce any idealist patriotic German at the time. Thus many a "good man" could have ended up being party members,or in the SS.
The escalation of atrocities from breaking windows to final solution would have caught many people up and implicated them as time went by, a gradual corruption of a persons moral being.

Throw in a persons loyalty to his squad mates created by combat during war time, and the stress created by war, combat,loss and fear and its easy to see that this person may have doubts and be terribly conflicted, but would simply concentrate on the job in hand ie simply follow orders.

I actually think it would be a good plot for a film, but I doubt anyfilm maker would have the courage to produce it.

[David Hayward]

and you can't see no difference between those examples, correct?

I see people fighting back against totalitarian regimes.

[David Hayward]

The Nazis didnt come to power in Germany with a manifesto that said, First were going to create a police state within Germany and murder anyone who opposes us, then were going to launch an allout total war against all our european neighbours bombing defenceless cities and occuping these countries, then we will launch a barbarous inhumane attack against Russia. Finally we will systematically murder millions of jews and other "undesirables"simply because we dont think they diserve to live.


You just described 'Mein Kampf".

[robtek]

With what are those people fighting?

Oh, yes, it is tradition to have arms, even automatic kalashnikovs, in those countrys.

It is also tradition not to be organized and being free to travel anywhere.

[robtek]

You just described 'Mein Kampf".

Which was inspired by the writings of Henry Ford! Also a antisemit.

[Kodoss]

It's hard to see people fighting back against totalitarian regimes, when you have no free press, no internet or even television!

[fruitbat]

It's hard to see people fighting back against totalitarian regimes, when you have no free press, no internet or even television!

Bingo.

[fruitbat]

I see people fighting back against totalitarian regimes.

see above post. somebody else can see the differences, but oh well, why bother, lol.

[David Hayward]

It's hard to see people fighting back against totalitarian regimes, when you have no free press, no internet or even television!

None of which exists in Syria, either. They are still fighting back.

[Attila]

They did it in Libya. They're doing it right now in Syria.

you cant compare Germany in the early 30s with the situation in Lybia or Syria today!
In the eyes of the german crowd Hitler was a kind of messias! He brought back work for milions after the biggest crisis ever! Ok most of this work was just for start the war, but if you have no money you dont think about that!
People that not the same opinion were, were eliminated!
At any given time, there was no turning back!
And what about the Russians? Why they dont eliminated Stalin?
Dont misunderstand me,i'm no Nazi, I' m no german, i' m just a thinking man who knows, what people can do in certain situations

PS: Sorry for my english, i hope you know what i have tried to say!

[David Hayward]

Which was inspired by the writings of Henry Ford! Also a antisemit.

Does that make it ok?

[David Hayward]

And what about the Russians? Why they dont eliminated Stalin?


This doesn't just apply to Germany. Lots of countries have done despicable things, for which they have no excuses. The US has slavery and it's treatment of the native population. There are no excuses for any of that stuff.

[KG26_Alpha]

Get back on topic fast please.

Pilots Lounge rules apply

5. Political and religious discussions are prohibited.

Thanks

Original post in case you missed it and went straight to off topic.

I'm surprised at this one. Although there were a lot of brutes as far as treatment goes in POW camps as far as the Japanese Army goes here's something that totally threw me for a loop. I was listening to CBC radio this morning, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for those not in the know. Anyway a man from Victoria BC was on David Bucham was his name. He was talking about the movie Empire Of The Sun and how the whole situation at the camp was backwards. Hayashi the man who was the head man at the camp according to testimony after testimony and there were many of them was a total gentleman. Those were the words used. Anyone who got sick got the best care possible. No one was ever harmed. The reason these Boo Boos bug me is people watch these films and take them for fact. Especially when they're made by someone like Spielberg

[Sternjaeger II]

I think the conversation can stay civilised, all I would like to say on the off-topic is that an effective regime is one that effectively controls and indoctrinates a country, allowing for no aggregation to counteract it. One of the saddest mottos of Italian Fascism was "punish one to educate 100".

Being a Nazi doesn't automatically being evil, at least not in a political point of view: Nazi is a shorten version of national-socialist, which still happens to be the main political wave in Germany. It's the evil that was perpetrated under Nazism that killed, not the political creed per se. Governments and propaganda did a great job with this though, that's why in the UK a Socialist (or in the US a "commie") are considered "bad".

But as Alpha said, there's no point in sliding into politics, especially when people can't maintain a civilised conversation on the topic.
(EDIT: Sorry Alpha, saw your post only now..)

Having said this, David, I'm sure you heard of Twitter and Facebook, believe it or not they're two of the main forms of immediate communications for rebels in Libya and Syria.

Now back to the OT: can you guys think of other movies where "the baddies" are the protagonists?

[Oldschool61]

"the facts and names portrayed in this movie are purely fictional and not based on real events" .

They should be required to put that on religous books as well!!

[Sternjaeger II]

They should be required to put that on religous books as well!!

LOLz :mrgreen:

[Richie]

Amen to that.

[WTE_Galway]

If your interest in the topic this is well worth a read ...

http://www.nids.go.jp/english/publication/kiyo/pdf/2008/bulletin_e2008_5.pdf