First Red Tail review..Told ya!

[Richie]

Facially scarred Darth Vader Nazi LOL! Wonder if he has fangs too LOL. Probably that idiot Gordon Gallob who actually had a Scottish father...OUCH! He was absolutely hated because he got so many men killed. Really makes me mad. Now I don't know if I'll even go.


http://newyork.timeout.com/arts-culture/film/2501621/review-red-tails

[Sternjaeger II]

wow, caustic review! :shock:

I reckon I will still give it a shot, last thing I watched at the cinema was Captain America(!!!) :!:

[Richie]

Facially scarred Darth Vader Nazi LOL! Wonder if he has fangs too LOL. Probably that idiot Gordon Gallob who actually had a Scottish father...OUCH! He was absolutely hated because he got so many men killed. Really makes me mad. Now I don't know if I'll even go.


http://newyork.timeout.com/arts-culture/film/2501621/review-red-tails


Well every time an allied plane goes down I'm standing up and yelling with all my might..

ABSCHUSS...HORRIDO!

[Bewolf]

wow, caustic review! :shock:

I reckon I will still give it a shot, last thing I watched at the cinema was Captain America(!!!) :!:

Which I consider falling into the same category of movies + sci fi stuff. American war movies released for theatres have mostly been modern fairy tails anyways (yes, even Private Ryan).

The only exception I can think of are the two Eastwood movies about Iwo Jima, which I thought were excellent, and Band of Bothers, though the latter was a Mini Series produced for TV.

So in light of this I fail to understand where the sudden expectations come from?

If you want to see good war movies, go Russian or Finnish.

[Richie]

Das Boote was good. Also Tora Tora Tora and the old 1969 Battle of Britain. Even the battle between the high command and the German fighter pilots was pretty accurate in that.

[TomcatViP]

wow, caustic review! :shock:

I reckon I will still give it a shot

+1

[Ploughman]

Oh dear. So one for when the Mrs. is otherwise engaged many years from now. Surprised the CGI sucks though, if IL&M can't get it right...

[Robert]

..... if IL&M can't get it right...

...you call WETA Studios.

[bongodriver]

Oh dear. So one for when the Mrs. is otherwise engaged many years from now. Surprised the CGI sucks though, if IL&M can't get it right...

The CGI looks top notch....it's just the questionable physics that look awfull, basically the aircraft move like tie fighters.

[Richie]

Facially scarred Darth Vader Nazi LOL! Wonder if he has fangs too LOL. Probably that idiot Gordon Gallob who actually had a Scottish father...OUCH! He was absolutely hated because he got so many men killed. Really makes me mad. Now I don't know if I'll even go.


http://newyork.timeout.com/arts-culture/film/2501621/review-red-tails

Steinhof was burnt to a crisp and he does have a big fencing scar but does he remind you of Darth Vader :P


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn3wmxz9Qag

[Ploughman]

The CGI looks top notch....it's just the questionable physics that look awfull, basically the aircraft move like tie fighters.

Yes, the vector thrust on the P-51s...viz the CGI, I noted this from the review:

"mogul’s corner-cutting, do-what-you’re-told influence remains. Nowhere is this more evident than in the whiplash-inducing aerial battles, which feature a number of splendid comic book– style compositions—all those P-51 Mustangs weaving around as if defying gravity—alongside some of the shoddiest-looking digital effects this side of the Syfy Channel’s Dinocroc-Supergator franchise."

[Thee_oddball]

they already made a movie about these guys....how about one about the 442nd (Nisei)

[Ribbs67]

You Guys Kill me!... How about you go and see the movie for the entertainment, and to pay respect to the brave men that flew these machines! (Both German and American)Is this a true representation of what a real P-51 could do in real life? NO! Is it a Made for the BIG Screen Hollywood production with crazy fight scenes and Big explosions! Yeah... Why you ask??? Because it costs over a 100 million to make, and they wouldn't even come close to making money catering to our Flight Sim niche group. Of course we would love to see real aircraft in aerial ballet...The Mass audience doesn't care about the stall speed of the P-51.. or that the markings on the 109's aren't correct...Its about telling a story and making money...and maybe not in that order..heh
And while im on the subject, whats with all the American Bashing that has been going on? I might not post on here very much, but Im on here almost every day.. I usually dont post, unless im trying to help a fellow player with something in the game. Ill be the first one to tell you that Im no expert at flying, nor am I a historian... But It has really made me upset with the amount of animosity I see towards us. Im sure there has been crappy comments from Americans in these Forums(and I hate to see that).. but its not hard to find someone taking a jab at us..Especially when anything "American" is brought up...just an observation..


352ndRibbs

[Herbs107]

Well said Ribbs.. The little news storey below is interesting regarding Mr Lucas.

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/8405414/star-wars-director-george-lucas-says-hes-retiring

[ElAurens]

Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of WW2 aviation knew this movie was going to be bad, on many levels.


And just for the sake of historical accuracy...

The 99th. lost 25 B17s that they were escorting, they did not have a perfect record in this regard, unlike the mythology that has built up around them.


Just once I'd like to see a film about WW2 aviation that was as good as Das Boot, and I don't really care which side it would be about.

[Richie]

I think any thing now that has a prayer of being accurate has do be made independently or made in another country. I thought this little film wasn't bad as far as historic value and lets say lack of Hollywood SIS-BOOM-BAH let's getm team stuff. They were stationed in North Africa witch was different and the 109s were right on camouflage wise and shape. They look like JG52 G10s. Too early for those I think but they look good.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1558575/



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y83rT19jFA&list=UUvwBiY3bhcOmHuZAF2J2fQA&index=11&feature=plcp

[Sternjaeger II]

You Guys Kill me!... How about you go and see the movie for the entertainment, and to pay respect to the brave men that flew these machines! (Both German and American)Is this a true representation of what a real P-51 could do in real life? NO! Is it a Made for the BIG Screen Hollywood production with crazy fight scenes and Big explosions! Yeah... Why you ask??? Because it costs over a 100 million to make, and they wouldn't even come close to making money catering to our Flight Sim niche group. Of course we would love to see real aircraft in aerial ballet...The Mass audience doesn't care about the stall speed of the P-51.. or that the markings on the 109's aren't correct...Its about telling a story and making money...and maybe not in that order..heh
On a general line I agree, but it still surprises me how, with all the "experts" out there, they still manage to make gross mistakes (i.e. the colours/models of Bf109s in the movie).


And while im on the subject, whats with all the American Bashing that has been going on? I might not post on here very much, but Im on here almost every day.. I usually dont post, unless im trying to help a fellow player with something in the game. Ill be the first one to tell you that Im no expert at flying, nor am I a historian... But It has really made me upset with the amount of animosity I see towards us. Im sure there has been crappy comments from Americans in these Forums(and I hate to see that).. but its not hard to find someone taking a jab at us..Especially when anything "American" is brought up...just an observation..


352ndRibbs

:confused:

[Bewolf]

You Guys Kill me!... How about you go and see the movie for the entertainment, and to pay respect to the brave men that flew these machines! (Both German and American)Is this a true representation of what a real P-51 could do in real life? NO! Is it a Made for the BIG Screen Hollywood production with crazy fight scenes and Big explosions! Yeah... Why you ask??? Because it costs over a 100 million to make, and they wouldn't even come close to making money catering to our Flight Sim niche group. Of course we would love to see real aircraft in aerial ballet...The Mass audience doesn't care about the stall speed of the P-51.. or that the markings on the 109's aren't correct...Its about telling a story and making money...and maybe not in that order..heh
And while im on the subject, whats with all the American Bashing that has been going on? I might not post on here very much, but Im on here almost every day.. I usually dont post, unless im trying to help a fellow player with something in the game. Ill be the first one to tell you that Im no expert at flying, nor am I a historian... But It has really made me upset with the amount of animosity I see towards us. Im sure there has been crappy comments from Americans in these Forums(and I hate to see that).. but its not hard to find someone taking a jab at us..Especially when anything "American" is brought up...just an observation..


352ndRibbs

Sorry if anything came over the wrong way. My post probably sounded more negative then it was intended to be. The basic assertion stil stands, however, not as a slab, but simply because it is what it is.


On a general line I agree, but it still surprises me how, with all the "experts" out there, they still manage to make gross mistakes (i.e. the colours/models of Bf109s in the movie).

The sad part is, those changes are most likely intentional, exactly because there so many experts out there.
Then again, if you look at Lucas film making records, most movies are of the simple kind, more catering to a naive, younger or family target group. Strong soundtracks, simple black and white views with a clear message and in the end the good guys win. It's a feel good movie for a the average guys, not WW2 experts. I suppose with the ongoing financial crisis this is exactly what a lot of people need right now.
As said before, think Indiana Jones or Star Wars here and you will "get" this movie.

[Kodoss]

7 minutes trailer (http://www.moviepilot.de/news/satte-7-minuten-aus-george-lucas-red-tails-113894)...


for thouse who might be disapointed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs8D6zwQhxs

it's only a movie.

PS: has anyone of you noticed the oil-brake on the harley?;)

Edit: found in the wides of the net...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVDbBaC2254

[Kodoss]

nice docu of tuskegee airmen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqwFNPXqSIM

[Richie]

I like that :)

[Ataros]

Just once I'd like to see a film about WW2 aviation that was as good as Das Boot, and I don't really care which side it would be about.

This one is the best from a VVS perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud0ofWIg_cs
(aircrafts are not historical except for Po-2/U-2)

[bw_wolverine]

I watched an interview with George Lucas about the film and he said that he was trying to get this story out to the masses to showcase the heroism of the tuskegee airmen, 'real american heroes' as it were.

However, I think the amount of 'bending' of reality in this film is going to hurt that intention. It just makes the story seem less believable and I bet a lot of people are going to come away from the movie saying "yeah yeah, but that's not really what happened". And no, it isn't what happened (or so it sounds like), but the opportunity to get this story to the public in any real and meaningful way will be lost.

This film SHOULD have been made as real as they could have made it. It should have been done in the style of Band of Brothers. Hell, it would have been better served even if they'd done it in the style of Memphis Belle. I'll probably see it, but I'll wait til it's rentable.

[Korn]

Nevermind what George Lucas said. What he was trying to do is get a big pile of money. He's probably going to achieve that yet again... yeah he's taking advantage of this story of people facing adversity and coming out on top, you think he cares? He's not the first and won't be the last; i can only wish his movies wouldn't suck so much. But they do, what is the last decent film he made? You really have to go a way back.

[DoolittleRaider]

Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of WW2 aviation knew this movie was going to be bad, on many levels. Correct. I live in Vegas and wish they would have taken wagers on Redtails being Crap.


And just for the sake of historical accuracy...

The 99th. lost 25 B17s that they were escorting, they did not have a perfect record in this regard, unlike the mythology that has built up around them. Correct. The myth that "they never lost an escorted Bomber" lasted for six decades...Still, I was surprised that the trailer for Redtails didn't repeat that myth.


Just once I'd like to see a film about WW2 aviation that was as good as Das Boot, and I don't really care which side it would be about. See the Czech movie "Dark Blue World" about Czechs in RAF in BoB.

[DoolittleRaider]

Nevermind what George Lucas said. What he was trying to do is get a big pile of money. He's probably going to achieve that yet again...

I think the movie is going to be a flop once the Word gets out that it is no good, from any perspective.

yeah he's taking advantage of this story of people facing adversity and coming out on top, you think he cares? He's not the first and won't be the last; i can only wish his movies wouldn't suck so much. But they do, what is the last decent film he made? You really have to go a way back.

Lucas= Star Wars = XWing and Tie Fighters = laughable Fantasy Physics for aerial action in Red Tails. Totally predictable.

[JG52Uther]

Unfortunately if it does flop, other people will lose interest in making films in the same genre.

[swiss]

I think the movie is going to be a flop once the Word gets out that it is no good, from any perspective.



Do you really think the average audience does base it's judgment on the FM of planes?
No, they don't.
This is a Popcorn Movie - personally I don't care either, the planes can handle like Space Shuttles for all I care, so what?
It's just fun.
Some of you guys are truly sorry nerds. Get a life.

[robtek]

Do you really think the average audience does base it's judgment on the FM of planes?
No, they don't.
This is a Popcorn Movie - personally I don't care either, the planes can handle like Space Shuttles for all I care, so what?
It's just fun.
Some of you guys are truly sorry nerds. Get a life.

One could cut realistic scenes as spectacular as those silly faked ones with the same amount of work, also the paintjobs could be realistic without hurting the movie.
Nothing against popcorn movies, but there really is no reason for those senseless falsifications, except a really dumb/careless audience is expected.

[jg27_mc]

The film (Dark Blue World) is ok... But come on, Bouchons instead of 109's? And the Revi sight placed on the left of the dashboard... give me a break! :confused:

The movie is porked at best! lol
Regards.

[JimmyBlonde]

Let me see, Highly romanticised and over-sentamentalised gush? Check.

Crappy CGI? Check.

Unimaginative, self indulgent production values? Check.

Blatant plagiarism poorly disguised by a gossamer thin plot? Check.

Yep, it's another big budget American war film.

[DoolittleRaider]

Do you really think the average audience does base it's judgment on the FM of planes?
No, they don't.
This is a Popcorn Movie - personally I don't care either, the planes can handle like Space Shuttles for all I care, so what?
It's just fun.
Some of you guys are truly sorry nerds. Get a life.

Is it really necessary to go out of your way to start attacking other people ad hominem simply because they have a different opinion? That's what destroys so many threads on so many forums. I'm surprised at this coming from a Senior Member of the forum.

[Sokol1]

The film (Dark Blue World) is ok... But come on, Bouchons instead of 109's?

Because, as non Hollywood movie and as low budget one they use scenes from 1969 Battle of Britain movie, and in 1969 dont left too much real 109 to make movies, and porked CGI (like UFO P-51 from THC or Hollyood) are not standart in these times. ;)

The inverted footage from bf109 cockpit is strange option from makers - the same scene, but not inverted is show in BoB movie.

Despite this DBW is a very good movie.

Sokol1

[DoolittleRaider]

Unfortunately if it does flop, other people will lose interest in making films in the same genre. I agree it will hurt. I'm not hoping that it will flop, I'm just predicting that it will.

We can only hope and pray that Peter Jackson, an aviation enthusiast himself, will actually produce his supposed re-make of "Dambusters", which project seems right now to be dead in the water...

[bongodriver]

I agree it will hurt. I'm not hoping that it will flop, I'm just predicting that it will.

We can only hope and pray that Peter Jackson, an aviation enthusiast himself, will actually produce his supposed re-make of "Dambusters", which project seems right now to be dead in the water...

thats because todays geeks aren't into aircraft any more, it's all about fantasy elves or Belgian cartoon characters nowadays.

[Richie]

It's too bad. There are so many out of this world stories I'm sure many of us know in here that happened in WWII. What about those English special forces guys that went in and disabled the Tirpitz with those mines. That was nuts. If we could remake some of the old classics....WELL!....they would be great with the effects we have now. I can just see the Bismark and the Hood now crashing threw the North Atlantic. FIRE!!!....SHOOT!!! :)

[swiss]

Nothing against popcorn movies, but there really is no reason for those senseless falsifications, except a really dumb/careless audience is expected.

This movie targets the majority of the consumers, the ppl who expect entertainment, nothing else. They don't want to know any details.
The fact the Americans(they had the p51, remember) won is all the want - and need to know.
2 hrs full of high quality boom, drama(+potentially sex) and as many dead nazis you can potentially put in, et voilà; blockbusters.

Was Indiana Jones historically correct? No, but it worked.
What about U571? Again, it was all BS once more, yet it did ok.

[brando]

".....there really is no reason for those senseless falsifications, except a really dumb/careless audience is expected."

Which hits right on the truth, in my view. A box-office hit won't depend on a few thousand self-opinionated flight-simmers and their picky take on 'realism' or 'integrity' or any other long words. And, anyway, half of us will probably see it so that we can gripe about it afterwards.

[Hood]

".....there really is no reason for those senseless falsifications, except a really dumb/careless audience is expected."

Which hits right on the truth, in my view. A box-office hit won't depend on a few thousand self-opinionated flight-simmers and their picky take on 'realism' or 'integrity' or any other long words. And, anyway, half of us will probably see it so that we can gripe about it afterwards.

But why on earth would the general public want to see it? Sure it's a great story of success in the face of adversity and prejudice, but that story is an old one. Set it against the backdrop of aircraft in WW2 and the general public isn't interested. I bet that's why it is a cheap looking film.

Hood

[swiss]

Is it really necessary to go out of your way to start attacking other people ad hominem simply because they have a different opinion?


They don't just have a different opinion, they try to force on the rest of the ppl.
In movies, tires even squeal on dust roads, that's wrong - so what?
Shoot a car tank and it explodes - so unrealistic!
Shoot a tire and the whole car drops 20inches, ouch.
...but it's fun, and sometimes even adds to the drama :)
It entertainment, simple as that. If I want to learn something the last place i would go to is the cinema. There TV channels like History Channnel and NG, made for exactly that.

I'm surprised at this coming from a Senior Member of the forum.

Huh? As sorry as I am, but I dont consider myself part of this "community".
I have certain hobbies, interests - some ppl here seem to have the same, that makes it a good place to share infos and ask questions - but it doesn't turen those ppl into friends.
BTW: The usage of "ad hominem in this context is wrong, as I am basically attacking the majority of the readers.

[JimmyBlonde]

I agree it will hurt. I'm not hoping that it will flop, I'm just predicting that it will.

We can only hope and pray that Peter Jackson, an aviation enthusiast himself, will actually produce his supposed re-make of "Dambusters", which project seems right now to be dead in the water...

It depends if he's hamstrung by the kind of "Do as your told or hit the road" production ethic that so many big names in production favour. Jackson can make a good film but $pielberg might not let him.

[Richie]

Anyone who's going to see it post up in here what you thought.

[DoolittleRaider]

...


...
BTW: The usage of "ad hominem in this context is wrong, as I am basically attacking the majority of the readers.


Majority or minority...neither has anything to do with it. Look up ad hominem. Here's one partial definition to get you started: "An attempt to argue against an opponent's idea by discrediting the opponent himself"...to wit, your resort to "Some of you guys are truly sorry nerds. Get a life."

Now I am done with it.

[Thee_oddball]

Anyone who's going to see it post up in here what you thought.

have fun richie..im going to see the new love of my life..Gina Carano...hot and a bad ass!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFV0Uvzpz0o

[Richie]

have fun richie..im going to see the new love of my life..Gina Carano...hot and a bad ass!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFV0Uvzpz0o


Good for you but I don't think I'm going to go...Maybe I'll go see The Descendants again.

[swiss]

Good for you but I don't think I'm going to go...Maybe I'll go see The Descendants again.

Try this one
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1675434/

[Richie]

Sounds good

[bongodriver]

have fun richie..im going to see the new love of my life..Gina Carano...hot and a bad ass!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFV0Uvzpz0o

Does nobody do an original idea any more......it's just Bourne again.

[Korn]

Does nobody do an original idea any more......it's just Bourne again.
Except that chick Carano is a legit MMA fighter. So she could actually kick your arse, unlike that Bourne sissy :D

[Robert]

I'm going to go see it. Where else are you going to view 109s, P-51s, B-17s on a big screen? This kind of thing doesn't come around all the time, and I think it warrants a visit to the cinema by me. I've spent money on a lot worse junk in my life. Despite the innacuaracies and other complaints I'll enjoy it just for the ability to see the above mentioned.

We live in an "American/British/Scandanavia/Australia IDOL" kind of environment where the superficial is lauded more than the substantive. If it sizzles it has to be good, but when you get to the actually eating of the steak it's bland and tuff. Most don't care enough to separate the two. It's not just a symptom of Hollywood. It's universal IMO.

[VF101-jay]

I just went to see it tonight, as I have heard many say it was not the most accurate retelling of the squadron's history or depiction of markings or even engine and gun sounds, but it was an enjoyable movie and for me the errors weren't enough to draw me out of the story. In comparison to any movie about air war that we have had in the last 15 years, I would place it as good as any if not out in front. It was better than I expected, and I plan to add it to my collection when released on DVD, remember that it is a movie and not a documentary and I think you will like this movie.

[pencon]

Just once I would like to see a WW2 Air combat movie where ze germans arent depicted as complete Idiots and totally inept and evil all at the same time. I mean if they were really that useless and never got a kill the war would have lasted 6 months not 5 years.As someone mentioned earlier , the only realistic portrayal from the german point of view was "das Boot" .I would love to see a movie that portrayed BOTH sides and even the german pilots as human beings whipping through those B 17 formations through their eyes as well . That would have made a well rounded story .

[bongodriver]

Just once I would like to see a WW2 Air combat movie where ze germans arent depicted as complete Idiots and totlly inept . I mean if they were really that useless and never got a kill the war would have lasted 6 months not 5 years.As somone mentioned earlier , the only realistic portrayal from the german point of view was "das Boot" .

Strange view, as far as I can tell the Germans are always depicted as very deviously intelligent and always manage to kill someone, if they didn't it would make it hard to 'hate' them, I've never seen a film where Germans are portrayed as 'innept'......just evil.

[David Hayward]

Just once I would like to see a WW2 Air combat movie where ze germans arent depicted as complete Idiots and totally inept and evil all at the same time. I mean if they were really that useless and never got a kill the war would have lasted 6 months not 5 years.As someone mentioned earlier , the only realistic portrayal from the german point of view was "das Boot" .I would love to see a movie that portrayed BOTH sides and even the german pilots as human beings whipping through those B 17 formations through their eyes as well . That would have made a well rounded story .

Do you really not understand why the Germans play the role of the bad guys in movies about WW2?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Do you really not understand why the Germans play the role of the bad guys in movies about WW2?

That was not the point, as you hopefully must realize. :rolleyes:

[Kupsised]

Just once I would like to see a WW2 Air combat movie where ze germans arent depicted as complete Idiots and totally inept and evil all at the same time. I mean if they were really that useless and never got a kill the war would have lasted 6 months not 5 years.As someone mentioned earlier , the only realistic portrayal from the german point of view was "das Boot" .I would love to see a movie that portrayed BOTH sides and even the german pilots as human beings whipping through those B 17 formations through their eyes as well . That would have made a well rounded story .

I think the Battle of Britain does a fairly good job of that, although of course the main focus is on the RAF so there is not much of it, but the German scenes do a lot to make them more 'human' than most portrayals. For example, the scene where they are sat round the table for dinner with candles marking the missing, or the fact that you actually see the German pilots, not only outside but also inside their aircraft, and showing a lot of emotion as well. And the fact that there is more dialouge than the Commando Comic style 'Gott im himmel!' and 'Die, Schwein!'

Either way, you're right, I wish more films like Das Boot, or even games in a similar vein would be made about other things, air, land and sea, to help people realise that the German soldiers/airmen were not all Nazi's, were not all awful and at the end of the day were human beings, rather than one-dimensional, one-size-fits-all 'baddies' or just sprites for the 'goodies' to shoot at.

[David Hayward]

That was not the point, as you hopefully must realize. :rolleyes:

Yes, it is the point. The fact that some people still don't understand why it's the point is pretty astounding.

[pencon]

Of course I do David, but the german pilots were not nazis ,and i think it would be interesting to see the AIRWAR through their eyes as well as the allied side .Just watch A&E dogfights and youll see yet another depiction of hopeless german pilots . My point is Im sure they also got their number of allied kills . Not siding with nazis David , just looking for realism.Also it would allow for a closer view of german aircraft. So David if you fly a 109 in the sim does that make you a nazi?

[David Hayward]

Of course I do David, but the german pilots were not nazis ,and i think it would be interesting to see the AIRWAR through their eyes as well as the allied side .Just watch A&E dogfights and youll see yet another depiction of hopeless german pilots . My point is Im sure they also got their number of allied kills . Not siding with nazis David , just looking for realism.Also it would allow for a closer view of german aircraft.

Whether or not they were Nazis has nothing to do with it. They were fighting on the same side as the Nazis, and they did so without any significant protest. They were on the wrong side of history, and it's going to take a long time for many people to forget that.


So David if you fly a 109 in the sim does that make you a nazi?

Yeah, flying a 109 in a sim is just like helping Hitler invade most of Europe.

[Bewolf]

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/859611.gif

[ATAG_Snapper]

Of course I do David, but the german pilots were not nazis ,and i think it would be interesting to see the AIRWAR through their eyes as well as the allied side .Just watch A&E dogfights and youll see yet another depiction of hopeless german pilots . My point is Im sure they also got their number of allied kills . Not siding with nazis David , just looking for realism.Also it would allow for a closer view of german aircraft. So David if you fly a 109 in the sim does that make you a nazi?

@David The above WAS the point. I thought it was evident that not all Luftwaffe pilots were like the evil, sneering, duelling-scarred individual caricatured in the movie. If you believe they were, so be it.

[robtek]

David,

which such a simplified view at the past, as you have shown in the last posts, you can only be shure of one thing:

your pov is, while not completely wrong, definitely not right, in the real world.

The times of black and white are long gone!

[pencon]

David you need to buy a sim of people sitting on the porch together sipping lemonade and having happy moments in the sunset .In your eyes I guess even today German people are all nazis right ?

[David Hayward]

@David The above WAS the point. I thought it was evident that not all Luftwaffe pilots were like the evil, sneering, duelling-scarred individual caricatured in the movie. If you believe they were, so be it.

No, I don't believe they were. Nor does it matter what they were. The only thing that matters is that they were fighting on the same side as the Nazis. Therefor, they will always be the bad guys, That seems pretty simple, and also quite understandable.

[David Hayward]

David,

which such a simplified view at the past, as you have shown in the last posts, you can only be shure of one thing:

your pov is, while not completely wrong, definitely not right, in the real world.

The times of black and white are long gone!

We're not talking about the real world. We're talking about movies. I think you'll find that the world view in most movies actually is "black and white". Complex bad guys are pretty rare. People tend to want their bad guys to be obviously bad.

[JG52Krupi]

When are you guys going to realize that David looks at a thread finds the view with the smallest minority and then saddles up with that view and starts trolling for all his worth... he's just a wind up merchant, don't buy his shizzle ;)

[pencon]

I have an RC model of an FW190 d9 with a swastika on the tail so I guess I must be a nazi ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwZ5OFGIFk8 (I'm actually not though ;))

[robtek]

I have an RC model of an FW190 d9 with a swastika on the tail so I guess I must be a nazi ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwZ5OFGIFk8 (I'm actually not though ;))

Sorry, for some people, you, and all your descendants, are damned forever. :D :D :D

[pencon]

I suppose for a lot of African Americans , Caucasians are the evil bad guys , right David ? Perhaps even some of your ancestors would be on that list ..

[JG52Uther]

I shall let Blackadder have the last word on this thread:

It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that it was excellent.