Bf 109 Structure

[JG52Krupi]

Just stumbled on this forum.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104523&page=10

Some great details of warbirds that I have not seen before.

[ElAurens]

It's always interesting to see current era photos of 109s as you really have a feel for how small the aircraft actually is.

Great find Krupi, thanks!

[pupo162]

It's always interesting to see current era photos of 109s as you really have a feel for how small the aircraft actually is.

Great find Krupi, thanks!

small? it looks huge compared to my iamgination....

i rmemeber the first time i saw a Tank. it was a sherman in london. i was surprised how big it was. i cant imagine how big i tiger could possibly be.

[von Pilsner]

Great photos, thanks.

[Dano]

Awesome stuff, thanks for the link :)

[ElAurens]

small? it looks huge compared to my iamgination....

i rmemeber the first time i saw a Tank. it was a sherman in london. i was surprised how big it was. i cant imagine how big i tiger could possibly be.

I have stood next to a flyable Emil.

It is tiny by any standard, shockingly so. A Spitfire looks big next to it, and a Spit looks small compared to say a P40 or P51.

[JG52Uther]

Yes, the 109 is a tiny aircraft. IIRC that was a design decision, to make it harder to hit.

[pupo162]

I have stood next to a flyable Emil.

It is tiny by any standard, shockingly so. A Spitfire looks big next to it, and a Spit looks small compared to say a P40 or P51.

i havent stand next a 109 or a spittie yet. but next to a set of spit wings i have, and they were huuuuge.

cnat wait till i go back to england or germany so i can stnad next to beasts.

[JG52Uther]

RAF museum in Hendon, London has an Emil and a G model you can get close to if you get the chance Pupo.Well worth a visit!

[bongodriver]

i havent stand next a 109 or a spittie yet. but next to a set of spit wings i have, and they were huuuuge.

cnat wait till i go back to england or germany so i can stnad next to beasts.

I have sat in a few spits....not so huge inside, the hurri 'is' huge and the Mustang isn't exactly small, but the 109 is very diminutive....until it's in the air and you can hear the growl you don't get the warbird vibe.

[JG52Uther]

Black 6 currently resides in the RAF museum at Hendon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUcENor7X_0

[Osprey]

I have stood next to a flyable Emil.

It is tiny by any standard, shockingly so. A Spitfire looks big next to it, and a Spit looks small compared to say a P40 or P51.

I don't think so tbh. A 109 is smaller but not by such a difference, and the 40 is a bit bigger than the 51. Put a Spitfire against a P-47 though...... The Jug is a monster!

[Richie]

Every time I looked a picture inside a 109 fuselage or one in any sate of disassemblage I couldn't figure out how it was put out in the grapevine that they were all put together with spit and bailing wire and would fall apart after a few hours. Churchill I think. But for years and years up until I was in my late teens I thought it was the truth. I kind of figured it out that it was just necessary moral boosting propoganda when I got into books about 109s and Spitfires also.

[Richie]

Every time I looked a picture inside a 109 fuselage or one in any sate of disassemblage I couldn't figure out how it was put out in the grapevine that they were all put together with spit and bailing wire and would fall apart after a few hours. Churchill I think. But for years and years up until I was in my late teens I thought it was the truth. I kind of figured it out that it was just necessary moral boosting propoganda when I got into books about 109s and Spitfires also.


I saw this program when it aired on Equinox in Canada in the early 90s. It changed my mind forever. Hard to see out of tricky on the ground but I don't think it's going to fall apart after a few hours. Plus this guy has no idea how the canopy works in a bail out. One of the best systems.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eXXCCR2oj8&feature=youtu.be

[ElAurens]

The same situation exists to this day for the Mitsubishi A6M series.

Most people, and especially virtual pilots of the USN persuasion, continue to propagate the myth that the Zero was poorly built. They were actually well built, and had a lot of hand craftsmanship in the airframe.

Their fragility was by design, as it was the only way that the designers could meet the seemingly contradictory specifications laid down by the Imperial Japanese Navy.

That is, 1500 mile range, extreme maneuverability, high rate of climb, cannon armament, and ease of maintenance on board ship, oh, and you only have 1000bhp to work with.

IMHO, the Zero, Spitfire, Bf 109, and P51 were the four most brilliant designs for fighters that came out of WW2.

Each one exceeded the expectations of their respective militarys, and all went on to become legends.

[JG52Krupi]

The Fw 190 deserves a place in that list it was a fantstic aircraft that brought a lot of new designs to the table.

[ElAurens]

Only because it has a lot of cannons...

*Runs for cover.*




:grin:

[JG52Krupi]

Only because it has a lot of cannons...

*Runs for cover.*




:grin:

Well that :cool: and it use of electrical systems the Engine Control Unit etc... the ideas that Kurt Tank had for the aircraft is mind boggling .

[Richie]

The same situation exists to this day for the Mitsubishi A6M series.

Most people, and especially virtual pilots of the USN persuasion, continue to propagate the myth that the Zero was poorly built. They were actually well built, and had a lot of hand craftsmanship in the airframe.

Their fragility was by design, as it was the only way that the designers could meet the seemingly contradictory specifications laid down by the Imperial Japanese Navy.

That is, 1500 mile range, extreme maneuverability, high rate of climb, cannon armament, and ease of maintenance on board ship, oh, and you only have 1000bhp to work with.

IMHO, the Zero, Spitfire, Bf 109, and P51 were the four most brilliant designs for fighters that came out of WW2.

Each one exceeded the expectations of their respective militarys, and all went on to become legends.

+1

[julien673]

IMHO, the Zero, Spitfire, Bf 109, and P51 were the four most brilliant designs for fighters that came out of WW2.

Each one exceeded the expectations of their respective militarys, and all went on to become legends.

Yak 3-9 and la-5 was good to, don t forget propaganda ;). The p51 wasn t that good........

[Richie]

Yak 3-9 and la-5 was good to, don t forget propaganda ;). The p51 wasn t that good........

That's right some of the Russian aeroplanes were great but you never see anything of them on TV.

[JG52Krupi]

That's right some of the Russian aeroplanes were great but you never see anything of them on TV.

Might have been to do with the whole communist thing that the Russians had going on I think the west didn't like it ;)

[Richie]

How wild would it be to see Yaks and 109s in a film about the air conflict in Russia.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Do not get bored waiting for an unbiased documentary of VVS planes ;) :rolleyes: If made by Russians the plot is: (insert pompous orchestral music here) Our fearless Guards Regiment pilots in their mighty and best in ALL world planes wiped out the scum nazis everywhere they appeared. The nazis could nothing but fall for the guns of our Patriotic pilots. (fading pompous orchestral music with a La or Yak flying + the Red Flag) :grin:

It would be nice to see a documentary of the Red side as they are scarse. Those floating around are so stuffed with communist propaganda that it is VERY hard to watch them past titles. Another less covered area is Pacific. The men who flew during WW2 are getting fewer in an increasing rate and soon there is no-one to tell about it how it was. Many untold stories will fade, a shame today's people have forgotten who were the men and women making it possible for us to have a life we have now..

[Richie]

For decades nothing then this one Documentary came along Battle Of Britain The Real Story. It seams like it's been taken down off of youtube for some reason but I downloaded it and put up this clip. If you have Utorrent you should be able to download this Doc. It's the best one on this subject I've ever seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWoj0TWEQY&list=UUvwBiY3bhcOmHuZAF2J2fQA&index=1&feature=plcp

[drewpee]

Who do I have to kill to get a job there. Amazing. Such beautiful machines. The Yak has amazing lines. I had a double take with the 109 with the Rolls-Royce engine. I first thought the exaust pipes were sitting to high on the engine cowl. A closer lock reveled the Rolls-Royce stamp on the rocker covers.

[ElAurens]

That's a Buchon. It was built in Spain, it's a copy of a 109, the Spanish Air Force flew them for decades after WW2.

[Richie]

That Bouchon belonged to Harold Kindersvater in the States but it's in Germany now. I wonder if they'll hang a Daimler Benz on it. That would be great. Now a days when airframes need repair it looks they have all the goodies to make things right.



http://www.leichtbau-gmbh.de/index.htm

[julien673]

S!

Do not get bored waiting for an unbiased documentary of VVS planes ;) :rolleyes: If made by Russians the plot is: (insert pompous orchestral music here) Our fearless Guards Regiment pilots in their mighty and best in ALL world planes wiped out the scum nazis everywhere they appeared. The nazis could nothing but fall for the guns of our Patriotic pilots. (fading pompous orchestral music with a La or Yak flying + the Red Flag) :grin:

It would be nice to see a documentary of the Red side as they are scarse. Those floating around are so stuffed with communist propaganda that it is VERY hard to watch them past titles. Another less covered area is Pacific. The men who flew during WW2 are getting fewer in an increasing rate and soon there is no-one to tell about it how it was. Many untold stories will fade, a shame today's people have forgotten who were the men and women making it possible for us to have a life we have now..

Seriously ????? We all know Historia chanel is the trues :rolleyes:. What about yours propaganda ;). Find the true will be hard but hey..... what about the german pilot. Maybe ... the order for not engaging the yak 3-9 in air combat wasn t crazy ideas ???? ;) But its true

Sry for the poor language, but i think you understand that isn t my first language :-)

[Les]

Just stumbled on this forum.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104523&page=10

Some great details of warbirds that I have not seen before.

Fascinating pics, thanks for the link.

[Sternjaeger II]

Yeah, the Flypast forum has some proper gems coming out every now and then :-)

the pics are of a Buchon though, there are some structural differences, other than fwd of the firewall obviously, mainly in the dual spar structure, which makes for a slightly heavier but more robust wing.

I spent some fun times paint stripping the wings of a T-6, man what a PIA! The surface coat normally comes out easily, but the primers used are SO hard to remove sometimes!

As for the 109 size, it's an advantage also in terms of strategic production, since you need less material to produce one aircraft.

I still regard the 109 as the most overall efficient and cost effective fighter aircraft of WW2.

[Pitti]

As for the 109 size, it's an advantage also in terms of strategic production, since you need less material to produce one aircraft.

I still regard the 109 as the most overall efficient and cost effective fighter aircraft of WW2.

+1

And another reason for the size of the 109 (from the book "Spitfire vs Bf 109 - Battle of Britain" by Tony Holmes):
Finally, the design had to be small enough to enable it to be transported by rail.

[drewpee]

That Bouchon is a real oddity. I'd like to know why they chose to mate the RR with the 109. Was cost the mane reason (maybe surplus engines/airframes)or was there some performance gain? I remember seeing a doco on the making of the film Battle Of Britten and they used AC from the Spanish AF in allot of their footage. I thought at the time the noses of the 109's were a bit odd.

[Al Schlageter]

That Bouchon is a real oddity. I'd like to know why they chose to mate the RR with the 109. Was cost the mane reason (maybe surplus engines/airframes)or was there some performance gain? I remember seeing a doco on the making of the film Battle Of Britten and they used AC from the Spanish AF in allot of their footage. I thought at the time the noses of the 109's were a bit odd.

How many D-B engines made since April 1945?

[swiss]

That Bouchon is a real oddity. I'd like to know why they chose to mate the RR with the 109. Was cost the mane reason (maybe surplus engines/airframes)or was there some performance gain? I remember seeing a doco on the making of the film Battle Of Britten and they used AC from the Spanish AF in allot of their footage. I thought at the time the noses of the 109's were a bit odd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Aviaci%C3%B3n_HA-1112

[Sternjaeger II]

That Bouchon is a real oddity. I'd like to know why they chose to mate the RR with the 109. Was cost the mane reason (maybe surplus engines/airframes)or was there some performance gain? I remember seeing a doco on the making of the film Battle Of Britten and they used AC from the Spanish AF in allot of their footage. I thought at the time the noses of the 109's were a bit odd.

it's another classic example of when business gets in the way of aviation. I frankly find the nose section revolting to say the least.. nothing beats the sleek design of the DB engined 109s :-)

[fruitbat]

it's another classic example of when business gets in the way of aviation. I frankly find the nose section revolting to say the least.. nothing beats the sleek design of the DB engined 109s :-)

Interesting, i find it ungodly that anyone can strap something so beastly to a beautiful merlin.

[Sternjaeger II]

Interesting, i find it ungodly that anyone can strap something so beastly to a beautiful merlin.

lol fair enough :mrgreen:

Re. the DB601/605/603 it really shows though how every detail was engineered for aeronautical performance and with quality in mind. The inverted V layout meant that mechanics could work on the cylinder heads without trestles: all the delicate parts of the engine (rockers, injectors) were below (which in dogfights is a clear advantage) and even if hit on the top it would mean that the oil bleeding from the engine would be considerably less than its counterpart, allowing it to survive a bit longer even if damaged. The exhaust stacks weren't in the way of the cockpit and were easily shielded by the top plates, and last but not least you could make good use of the space between the cylinder banks and put a nice big cannon in it.

[Al Schlageter]

Agh, the Hispano_Suiza was an upright V12 and had a cannon mounted in the V. The Russians put a 37mm in their version of this engine.

[JG53Frankyboy]

the DB605 was still produced in Sweden after 1945. but they were very expensive to purchase. Switzerland as example decided to buy cheap used P-51 instead of swedish engines forvthei dozen Bf109G-6.........

and the first version of the spanish 109s had Hispano engines btw. I guess the Merlin gave a better performance :)

[swiss]

the DB605 was still produced in Sweden after 1945. but they were very expensive to purchase. Switzerland as example decided to buy cheap used P-51 instead of swedish engines forvthei dozen Bf109G-6.........

and the first version of the spanish 109s had Hispano engines btw. I guess the Merlin gave a better performance :)

That was because our blackmailed G6 turned out to be lemons, all of them.

[JG53Frankyboy]

what one is expecting with slave work......all original engines were in a terrible condition, and they were new!

[julien673]

what one is expecting with slave work......all original engines were in a terrible condition, and they were new!

Don t forget the shortage of strategic material