New German Planes for Sequel

[Tavingon]

Now I know the russian planes will be in BOM, but what additional german planes may be implemented?

Im guessing a later model bf109.. maybe the focker wulf, a ju88 heavy fighter version, ju52 would be lush

[Bewolf]

Now I know the russian planes will be in BOM, but what additional german planes may be implemented?

Im guessing a later model bf109.. maybe the focker wulf, a ju88 heavy fighter version, ju52 would be lush

Bf109 F2 and F4 will be in for sure. Maybe an 110 F, a Ju52 and a Storch. Maybe the HS 123. Hopefully a later Mark He111. I'd not count on a 190 yet.

[Frequent_Flyer]

If Luthier follows the fine tradition of IL-2 1946. We can count on having the F-104 Starfighter.

[SturmKreator]

If I don't see focke wulf, I will never gonna buy this game

[addman]

The Henschel-123 has to be in for me to even consider buying it. How long has this plane been neglected? It wasn't a major player but still was in full operational service during Typhoon.

[JG52Krupi]

190 is a must.

[Sven]

Didn't we see a LA5 in the makes? That's not really a 'Battle for Moscow scenario' plane, is it? A LaGG-3 would be more likely.

On the German side we would see the E-7 and F1, not sure about F2 but there were field mods which added the 20mm to the F1.
Ju-88A4

[Chivas]

If I don't see focke wulf, I will never gonna buy this game

The 190 will eventually appear in one of the sequels/theaters. Of course there is the possiblilty the developer will crash and burn for lack of support before that happens.

[SturmKreator]

The 190 will eventually appear in one of the sequels/theaters. Of course there is the possiblilty the developer will crash and burn for lack of support before that happens.

not my problem, if they do not put the best fighter of the war, I am not gonna buy the game, thats the unique reason I play IL-2 becouse I can use my FW190

[28_Condor]

190A2 enter in service around may 1941, but I am not sure if in sufficient numbers in that front...

[Sven]

not my problem, if they do not put the best fighter of the war, I am not gonna buy the game, thats the unique reason I play IL-2 becouse I can use my FW190

You're only hurting yourself in the end by not showing interest in any other aircraft then the FW190. But hey, what should I care, you're just another lone wolf trying to steal my kill otherwise :D

[SturmKreator]

You're only hurting yourself in the end by not showing interest in any other aircraft then the FW190. But hey, what should I care, you're just another lone wolf trying to steal my kill otherwise :D

Yep I am a big fan of FW190 series, and well I could fly the BF109 too, but my killing machine is my FW

[Chivas]

not my problem, if they do not put the best fighter of the war, I am not gonna buy the game, thats the unique reason I play IL-2 becouse I can use my FW190

They will put the FW190 in when the theater they are creating calls for it. BOB didn't have the 190, but one of the future theaters will. I think you missed my point anyway.

[BGs_Ricky]

190A2 enter in service around may 1941, but I am not sure if in sufficient numbers in that front...

FW-190 first appeared on the eastern front in September 1942 with I/JG51 on the northern and central sector, followed by the rest of the Geschwader and then JG54 .

[rga]

I'm looking forward to seeing the Eins Zwei Drei (Hs 123) in action.

OT: why do you all think that the Fokker will be again the best fighter in the sky in game? I mean it was indeed a superb fighter, but it did not automatically own every opponents it met in 1943. CEM plays a very importal role in CloD, much more than in IL-2, and before you tell me about the Kommandogerät, I believe it was not perfect and sometimes manually adjusting gave better performance (at cost of work load though).
I know I have opened the can of worms, so let keep talking about the Doppeldecker, OK :P

[ElAurens]

The late war fans always need their horsepower and cannon crutch.

The FW 190 played no part in the time period/theatre of the next installment of the sim.

Why not try broadening your personal horizon a bit?

I have my favorite planes as well, but you will never hear me throw such a hissy fit about not having them in the sim.

I'll buy the next installment even if it only has I-16s, I-153s, and IL2s against the entire inventory of the Luftwaffe from 1939 onwards.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I'll buy the next installment even if it only has I-16s, I-153s, and IL2s against the entire inventory of the Luftwaffe from 1939 onwards.
And loving it! ;)

[kendo65]

Wikipedia says (?) that the Luftwaffe was only operating 22 HS 123s at the start of Operation Barbarossa.

Maybe not really worth the trouble of representing in the game?

[ElAurens]

Maybe so, but there are never enough last gen biplanes that we can fly.

I'm still somewhat crushed that the Gladiator and CR.42 will not be flyable in CLOD.

[JG53Frankyboy]

even with its low numbers in service during operation Taifun, not more than one Gruppe (~40 aircraft ) , the Hs123 played a very important role in the gruondsupport of the german troops in this time. And even more when the soviet counteroffensuvevstarted!

in general:
as fighters the Bf109F-2/-4
as groundattack Bf109E-7, Bf110D/E, Hs123, Ju87B
as bombers Ju88A-5/-4, He111-6
as recon Hs126
as transport Ju52

[addman]

Maybe so, but there are never enough last gen biplanes that we can fly.

I'm still somewhat crushed that the Gladiator and CR.42 will not be flyable in CLOD.

Me too, what a waste of gorgeous plane models...anywho let's hope for the HS-123 and maybe even a flyable Polikarpov U-2! Oh that would be so sweet. Ok, calm down now, don't get your expectations too high now like last time.:)

[Flanker35M]

S!

After reading German pilot memoirs it seems that at beginning of Barbarossa they used a lot of older versions too, not always the latest batch of fighters and bombers. For example JG 5 Eismeer had it's last Bf109G-2's in 1944 and Emils were phased out as late as 1942/43...

Will be interesting to see what we have in the sequel. For sure getting it if it means we get Mediterranean/North Africa too at some point :)

[csThor]

JG 5 is a very special case, kind of "poor man's war" up there. On the main front only JG 27 and parts of JG 77 still used Emils in 1941, the former until they departed for North Africa, the latter already receiving its first Bf 109 F-4 in July and August 1941.

[Blakduk]

From my limited understanding of how the LW functioned throughout the war many 109's were uprated with different components throughout their service life. Wings were changed, armament interchanged, engines swapped etc, so trawling through the archives it can be quite confusing just what different units were actually flying. I've read accounts of factory-fresh planes being sent to operational units and being immediately customised to the desired specs of the veteran pilots. In this i believe they had more opportunity to do so compared to allied pilots as the components of their aircraft were designed to be more easily interchangeable.
As i read of the development of CoD i was quite intrigued how this would be replicated in-game. That's one aspect of CoD that i believe will be a strength as it matures- the new program allows different variants of the same airframe to handle quite differently according to how it was constructed. Il2 had a similar but more basic system.

[csThor]

There weren't that many fighter-bomber Emils around in 1941, only II.(Schlacht)/LG 2 used them in this role.

[pupaxx]

ok guys...they were only 17 in charge at 21° Gruppo but why not Macchi Mc202 'Folgore'? :-P :-P :-P
Reading at your post a thought comes to mind, if the FMs of CloD planeset (composed by 4-5 types (109e1-3 spit 1-1a 2)) took so much time to be tuned and with questionable results, in how many months will we see a complete and convincing planeset for the sequel? Not a criticism, just a thought on how much work is in front of Devs...
Cheers...Merry Christmas to you all!

[csThor]

The Folgores came only in 1942 to operate in the south towards Stalingrad. I don't think the italian planes of the Eastern Front (or romanian or finnish, for that matter) will find their way into BoM simply because they didn't serve in that area.

[pupaxx]

:oops::oops::oops:...ehm! ok but it would be already available for MED theatre...eh eh

[ATAG_Dutch]

Maybe so, but there are never enough last gen biplanes that we can fly.

I'm still somewhat crushed that the Gladiator and CR.42 will not be flyable in CLOD.

Maybe a Malta map in the MTO at some future point?

Here's hoping. ;)

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

If I don't see focke wulf, I will never gonna buy this game

You have 75 posts and cant pony up a pitance. Its well worth it if you like ww2 combat flight sims!


ASUS Sabertooth MB--Intel 2600k@4.7--EVGA GTX580 3GB--Corasir 1200 watt psu--Corsair 8gb 1833--Corsair H70 cooler--Corsair 650d case--OCZ Vertex 3--Track IR5--CH Eclipse Yoke--CH Trottle Quadrant--CH MFP--CH Rudders

[kestrel79]

I hope to see more of the "crap planes" in BoM. I like flying the non popular planes, even if their performance isn't the greatest.

Maybe we could get some planes in BoM that would transfer over to CloD as well, kill 2 birds with one stone.

I'm still hoping for some sort of water plane for rescue missions, or a transport plane for resupply missions. Air Warrior on AOL had this feature in 1996 on their online servers and I loved flying the C-47 below radar and resupplying bases or dropping paratroopers to capture a base.

[addman]

I hope to see more of the "crap planes" in BoM. I like flying the non popular planes, even if their performance isn't the greatest.

Maybe we could get some planes in BoM that would transfer over to CloD as well, kill 2 birds with one stone.

I'm still hoping for some sort of water plane for rescue missions, or a transport plane for resupply missions. Air Warrior on AOL had this feature in 1996 on their online servers and I loved flying the C-47 below radar and resupplying bases or dropping paratroopers to capture a base.

+1 to the crap planes. The Polikarpov-Po2 for example, crap plane but important for night terror duties and recon, I think they used it through the whole war or something. We have quite a few floatplanes in CloD to bad the devs have announced that there will be no more flyables in CloD (except the Su.26?).

[ElAurens]

The North Koreans used the P0 2 during the Korean War too...

;)

[addman]

The North Koreans used the P0 2 during the Korean War too...

;)

Perfect! Make it for BoM and keep it for the Korean expansion whenever that will be released!

[Ploughman]

Perfect! Make it for BoM and keep it for the Korean expansion whenever that will be released!

They made it for the Korean Expansion.





http://www.pumaszallas.hu/hirek/080607_Galba/PO-2grab0000.jpg

[Tavingon]

+1 to the crap planes. The Polikarpov-Po2 for example, crap plane but important for night terror duties and recon, I think they used it through the whole war or something. We have quite a few floatplanes in CloD to bad the devs have announced that there will be no more flyables in CloD (except the Su.26?).

Im all for 'crap' planes.. more fun online?!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/TROOPER117/SimHQ%20Screenshots/ArdenneBattle4.jpg
wink wink;)

[RickRuski]

Chivas is correct, the Fw190 wasn't involved in the BoB. It didn't have an operational flight until August 1941 over France. Bob as recognised by the Brits as being from 10th July---31st October 1940, although Germany considered BoB didn't finish until they attacked Russia.

[fruitbat]

190A2 enter in service around may 1941, but I am not sure if in sufficient numbers in that front...

Late Aug 1942 1JG 51 became the first unit to re-equip to FW 190 on the eastern front, with A3's.

That December JG54 re equipped to Fw190's as well.

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

Wikipedia says (?) that the Luftwaffe was only operating 22 HS 123s at the start of Operation Barbarossa.

Maybe not really worth the trouble of representing in the game?

It sounds like this was the only operational ground attack group and the HS 123 was all they had at first.

From Wikipedia (can I post this?)...

World War II (Eastern Front)At the start of Operation Barbarossa, the single Gruppe of the Luftwaffe that was dedicated to ground support was II.(Schl)/LG 2, operating 22 Hs 123s (along 38 Bf 109Es).[4] In service use on the Eastern Front, the remaining aircraft had been field-modified with the main wheel spats removed, additional armour and extra equipment fitted as well as mounting extra machine guns and even cannons in under-wing housings.

Some volunteers of Escuadrilla Azul (15 Spanische Staffel/VIII. Fliegerkorps) of JG-27 detached in Luftflotte 2 managed Hs 123s in collaboration of II.(Schl.)/LG 2 units for ground strikes along Bf 109E-7/B fighter-bombers during 1941-42 period.

During the initial drive, the unit participated in action along the central and northern parts of the front, including a brief time in support of the fighting around Leningrad, and participating in the battles for Bryansk and Vyazma. The first weeks revealed problems associated with using the Bf 109E which was plagued by undercarriage and engine problems in the fighter-bomber role. Its liquid-cooled inline engine was also more vulnerable to small arms fire than the Hs 123's radial.

The winter brought hardship to all German forces in Russia, and the pilots in the open cockpits of the Henschels suffered accordingly. Despite this, they took part in the Battle of Moscow. In January, the unit was re-designated as the first dedicated ground attack wing (in German Schlachtgeschwader 1, SchlG 1). The Hs 123 became a part of 7./SchlG 1.

This "new" unit participated in operations in Crimea in May 1942, after which it operated on the southern sector for some time, participating in the Second Battle of Kharkov and going on to take part in the Battle of Stalingrad. In the meantime, the small number of operational Hs 123 continued to slowly dwindle. Aircraft had been salvaged from training schools and even derelict dumps all over Germany to replace losses.[2] The aircraft that had supposedly replaced the Hs 123, the Ju 87, also started to be assigned to ground support units, leaving tactical bombing to newer aircraft.

The greatest tribute to the Hs 123 usefulness came in January 1943 when Generaloberst Wolfram von Richthofen, then commander-in-chief of Luftflotte 4, asked whether production of the Hs 123 could be restarted because the Hs 123 performed well in a theater where mud, snow, rain and ice took a heavy toll on the serviceability of more advanced aircraft. However, the Henschel factory had already dismantled all tools and jigs in 1940.[2]

After taking part in the Battle of Kursk, SG 1 returned to Crimea, and there during late spring 1944, they finally gave up the aircraft that had served all over Europe from Spain to Leningrad. 7./SG 1 traded its last Hs 123s in mid-1944, for Ju 87s, a type that was to have replaced it back in 1937.

By 1945, the Hs 123s that remained serviceable were reassigned to secondary duties such as supply dropping and glider towing.[5]

[pencon]

bring on the fw190 ,lets make this sim interesting (never was a spitfire fan )

[csThor]

Your wish is quite out of question. Given the workload of a single aircraft more than a year at a time (if that much at all) is not going to happen.

[pencon]

Some of us arent as to the minute in historical detail, and still think they should at least advance to the point of including the Fw190. I realize this is a sim but its a flight sim , not a history lesson . Who's to say they can only handle one year at a time? When I fly 1946 it's almost always the FW ,and yes I love me some 108 cannons! The 190 doesnt turn as well though so its a trade off. I also fly crap planes as well with peashooter guns (Macchi 200) so dont go getting all snobby on me .This sim should be fun as well as historical and going with too small of a selection is going to turn off many potential buyers .I'd rather they finish the sim right to 1945 , that way they can do the korean sim after that ( while we're still all here)

[Blackdog_kt]

I'm looking forward to seeing the Eins Zwei Drei (Hs 123) in action.

OT: why do you all think that the Fokker will be again the best fighter in the sky in game? I mean it was indeed a superb fighter, but it did not automatically own every opponents it met in 1943. CEM plays a very importal role in CloD, much more than in IL-2, and before you tell me about the Kommandogerät, I believe it was not perfect and sometimes manually adjusting gave better performance (at cost of work load though).
I know I have opened the can of worms, so let keep talking about the Doppeldecker, OK :P

Actually, it's because of the CEM that the 190 will work well in the new sim, not only in the eastern front scenarios but later theaters as well.

In Il2, the aircraft with the best aerodynamics and highest HP for a chosen altitude band would usually win.

In reality, a flight of P-38s was once bounced at high altitude by Fw-190As (the same Antons that had trouble up high because of their engines being insufficiently boosted at the altitudes bombers would operate at).

The 190s being fully automatic, all they had to do was point and shoot. The P-38 pilots were so busy going from cruise to combat power settings that 6 of them got shot down.

As an eastern front example, the La-5 was also a handful. I read once that the pilot had to manipulate 6 separate controls just to accelerate from cruise to combat power.

As for how close to specs the automatic system performed, it's not really a big factor in performance when you consider that most of this technology already existed in one form or another. I mean ok, it might not always work 100% correctly with super-precise mixture adjustments and supercharger gear switching, but it certainly can't be worse than what the 109E-4 had in 1940. At the very least it will be about equal in operation (ie, the pilot still only has to worry about throttle), but with more speed and four cannons ;)

Radial engines are great, reliable and powerful, but there's a reason pilots of the time preferred to boom and zoom than mix it up in dogfights: too much workload, which forces you to keep your head in the cockpit and not outside looking for threats.

We now have this kind of complexity modeled in the sim and if we get late war USAF aircraft, things are even more complicated. A P-47 for example has the following engine controls:

Mixture
Prop pitch
Throttle
Turbocharger
Cowl flaps
Intercooler
Oil cooler (i think these can be set to automatic thankfully)

and in a standard boom and zoom attack (dive, then climb) of more than 5000ft you have to adjust almost all of them due to the changes in speed (and hence airflow/cooling) and ambient temperature changes (lower is hotter, higher is colder), not to mention the case of going through a cloud (incorrect intercooler settings=carb icing).

It's going to be really interesting, because it will really take skills to use all that power the late war birds have. I'm really looking forward to it and in fact, if something can get me out of the 190s and into an allied warbird in late war scenarios, it will be the challenge of doing CEM correctly in them.

Back on topic however, i'd love to see a 190 but i agree it was too late to see action in Moscow. However, it makes sense as an add-on to our BoB map. If we get 109Fs for BoM, maybe we could also get 190s and Spit Mk.Vs and then use all three types to simulate the channel front fights of 1942 ;)


EDIT: Even more back on topic.

What i expect to see in BoM is the range of main VVS planes involved. Early Yaks, I-16, I-153, Mig-3, IL-2 for example. It will be a blast flying IL-2s or I-153s down low with the new graphics and improved sense of speed and ambiance in the environment. Dodging flak in flimsy biplanes and firing rockets over the snow will be a blast. I'm up for Po-2 as well, imagine bombing at night while flying a Tiger Moth to get an idea of how we'll use it :D

Then, for the blue side, apart from the fighters (mostly late Emils and early 109Fs), i too would love me some Hs-123 action. But most of all, i'm itching to see some Ju88 variants. I have a thing for the multi-role twins of WWII and that's why i love the 88 and the Mosquito.

[JG52Krupi]

:D yeah, I really want to see what MG does with the 190 engine management unit , should be good fun, just as long as the BAR does not come back again :rolleyes:

[kendo65]

Have to say that you are excelling yourself with some of these posts Blackdog. The intellectual level of the forum has increased by around 300% in the last few days.

Welcome back!

Have you been taking writing lessons - your posts don't seem as ...well...heavy going as they could sometimes be in the past ;)
Always have to mess up a compliment

[Blackdog_kt]

Hahaha, no mate, i just have less time now so my writing is condensed :-P
Thanks for the kinds words though :grin:

[Al Schlageter]

Lw OoB for Barbarossa

http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/Balkan.html#Barb (scroll down a bit)

[csThor]

Some of us arent as to the minute in historical detail, and still think they should at least advance to the point of including the Fw190. I realize this is a sim but its a flight sim , not a history lesson . Who's to say they can only handle one year at a time? When I fly 1946 it's almost always the FW ,and yes I love me some 108 cannons! The 190 doesnt turn as well though so its a trade off. I also fly crap planes as well with peashooter guns (Macchi 200) so dont go getting all snobby on me .This sim should be fun as well as historical and going with too small of a selection is going to turn off many potential buyers .I'd rather they finish the sim right to 1945 , that way they can do the korean sim after that ( while we're still all here)

Quite honestly: If Maddox Games estimates a 6-month-per-man timeframe for a single cockpit position then it should be obvious why any larger timeframes are quite unrealistic. If we look at the number of aircraft, tanks, lorries, artillery guns, AA guns and any other 3D objects involved in the BoM alone then that already is a whole sh*tload of them to do. Advancing into late 1942 (in the case of the Fw 190) would easily triple the object and plane pool.

I'm not snobby about it, I'm just being realistic. Remember the state CloD is in right now? And that is with a much smaller plane and object pool. I'd rather have a working BoM than another unfinished piece of software with considerable teething problems. ;)

[Richie]

Who had that photobucket site of all the Storm Of War Cliffs Of Dover screenshots? He kept every one that was put up and put it up on his photobucket site. The pics went right back to the beginning of Storm Of War.

[Richie]

Found it. It's a really great resource for looking back on things.


http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/?start=0#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ24

[Richie]

http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/?action=view&current=La-9grab0000.jpg

http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/?action=view&current=p-51grab0003.jpg

http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/?action=view&current=air_341a_015L.jpg


This stuff is probably 5 yrs. old but there's an La 5

[JG52Krupi]

http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/?action=view&current=La-9grab0000.jpg

http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/?action=view&current=p-51grab0003.jpg

http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/?action=view&current=air_341a_015L.jpg


This stuff is probably 5 yrs. old but there's an La 5

That would be an La9 ;)

[Richie]

That would be an La9 ;)

I stand corrected Krupi :)

[Madfish2]

Personally I don't have many wishes for specific aircraft. I'm very sure they'll pick the important ones.

What I'd love to see though is aircraft that are slightly different. For example I do believe that during that campaign there were aircraft with ski instead of regular gear.
http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig11/10117797.jpg
another IL-2 with ski (bigger) (http://www.small-wonder.org/Projects/Sturmoviks/AM_Il-2_Straight_Wing_Single_Seater_Skis_2929.jpg)

Depending on map size even the finnish Fokker D21 on ski (http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/22071/2948292280099763970S600x600Q85.jpg) could be modeled?

Planes like these would be of high interest to me because of the way they work and are flown and landed.

Also I'd like to see more water planes and let's not forget the Su26 :P But that just on a side note.

[Richie]

I'll always want an F4 where ever I am and I'm dieing to see some screenshots of the new one. The Battle Of Britain is a very picturesque and important battle but the Emil isn't my favorite. Next to the F4 is the G2 witch is close enough.

[JG52Krupi]

I'll always want an F4 where ever I am. The Battle Of Britain is a very picturesque and important battle but the Emil isn't my favorite. Next to the F4 is the G2 witch is close enough.

Yeah, I want the curves of the BD605 and the 20mm cannon :D

[major_setback]

Who had that photobucket site of all the Storm Of War Cliffs Of Dover screenshots? He kept every one that was put up and put it up on his photobucket site. The pics went right back to the beginning of Storm Of War.

Me :-)