Vulcan to the Skies

[ATAG_Dutch]

Not the first time it's been posted I don't think, but even if you're not British, please help if you can.

Cheers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS-Q2UCg9yU

[Sternjaeger II]

I frankly do not understand why so much effort and millions of pounds(!!!) were put into bringing back to the sky that thing.. I mean,what's so evocative about it? The Cold War? The nuclear threat? :confused:
To me it really feels like someone who wanted a very expensive hobby and is pursuing it thanks to people's generosity..

[ATAG_Dutch]

Oh shut up.

[CWMV]

We have on here Locally at Castle Air Force Base museum. I always thought it was odd that there was a Vulcan sitting at a now defunct SAC base in Central California!
Great to see it flying. Hopefully the project achieves its projected aims, and the Vulcan reminds people that the only way to maintain peace is to be ready to fight for it, as the men who flew those Vulcans were willing to do.

[raaaid]

you people should rememebr that things have feelings too, why do you think they paint eyes on planes? ;)

come on planes are to look cool not killing machines

besides taking into account electromagnetic pulse which actually would be the best plane:confused:

[CWMV]

I remember seeing that Vulcan at air shows at March and El Toro when I was young.

The one at Castle?
I wonder how close to flying condition it is? There really was no telling during the last open cockpit day.

[swiss]

I would prefer to see a Concorde in the air.
It also comes with the advantage you could offer something to generous donors...

[Sternjaeger II]

Oh shut up.

Why don't you shut up?! :evil:
Every six months on Flypast and Aerpolane we have to read the plea of these folks and how they need hundreds of thousands of pounds cos their plane needs maintenance, or it's been left stuck somewhere or some other reason.
The managing of the whole project has been shambolic to say the least, you don't start such a venture without ensuring you have some capital investors!

..and once again, I understand you want it to be airborne cos it's about British pride, but a plane that was used in the Falklands War and was a nuclear bomber as well is something of questionable taste..

..and what's this crap of the Vulcan being used for the opening of Olympic games in London?! What's the sense?!

I think you're just full of you know what..

[Sternjaeger II]

Same thing restoring a 109, or a Do-17 (or a 1931 car) would be. Having something old, and keeping it around.

No, it's not, not when it runs as such prohibitive costs. Unfortunately there's nothing glorious about the Vulcan, obviously it strikes the British aviation enthusiasts imaginary collective, but as Swiss said I'd rather have a Concorde than a nuclear bomber that only dropped some bombs on the Falklands..

[robtek]

No, it's not, not when it runs as such prohibitive costs. Unfortunately there's nothing glorious about the Vulcan, obviously it strikes the British aviation enthusiasts imaginary collective, but as Swiss said I'd rather have a Concorde than a nuclear bomber that only dropped some bombs on the Falklands..

As you aren't paying for it, what is your interest here, beside trying to ruin other peoples fun?

[BPickles]

No, it's not, not when it runs as such prohibitive costs. Unfortunately there's nothing glorious about the Vulcan, obviously it strikes the British aviation enthusiasts imaginary collective, but as Swiss said I'd rather have a Concorde than a nuclear bomber that only dropped some bombs on the Falklands..

Really that narrow minded ? It is living history if we let it go people forget, just because its cold war or nuclear we shouldn't bother. Frankly that attitude sucks mate, do you feel the same about WW2 aircraft? And if its the death factor associated with nukes that's putting you off I assure you concord killed more people in its history than the Vulcan did.
Plus this, ever heard its howl? unique...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqA6bgFPGWI

[Sternjaeger II]

As you aren't paying for it, what is your interest here, beside trying to ruin other peoples fun?

1) I'm tired of people begging for it (or making profit off it for the matter). Every given airshow I have attended this year there were the vulcan to the sky trust folks begging for pennies. You can't secure a good sponsor after 4 years of operations? Give up.

2) With so many planes that need care and attention out there, the Vulcan was the last thing to be worried about and keep airborne. It doesn't represent anything important, or better, it represents a questionable time in history.

Someone somewhere really wanted to fly this plane, and they set up all this charity malarkey to bring the plane back to the sky, but alas, the guy behind this thing had little or no understanding of the ginormous costs behind such a venture..

[Sternjaeger II]

Really that narrow minded ? It is living history if we let it go people forget, just because its cold war or nuclear we shouldn't bother. Frankly that attitude sucks mate, do you feel the same about WW2 aircraft? And if its the death factor associated with nukes that's putting you off I assure you concord killed more people in its history than the Vulcan did.
Plus this, ever heard its howl? unique...


oh believe me, I did hear that a lot of times. I was based in Brunters for long time, working with some friends on other restorations, so I know ALL the story, even the more obscure aspects of it probably, the murky ones that don't make it to the public.

I regularly fly with WW2 planes, and I can tell you that there's a HUGE difference between flying a B-17 and a Vulcan. Putting aside the "moral aspects" (although I'd still like any of you to explain me what's the point of that thing opening the London Olympics), the prohibitive costs should be enough to make you want to have a more responsible managing or a different project altogether.

[BPickles]

ALL the story, i doubt that mate unless you worked on it yourself, rumors are rumors, when you say based in Brunters do you mean worked in Brunters as a civ?

Mate you are answering your own questions about the Vulcan with answers that you use for other restoration projects, its the same principle and the same passion. Why shouldn't they ask for donations?

All famous aircraft have a trust fund if its one of a kind and the only airworthy example. The government helps pay for unique things in this country but they only pay so much, as they do with the BBMF, the rest relys on public funding.

The people who pay to help keep this bird in the air do so because it defines a generation and not only that it is a unique aircraft that does define UK aviation and its ingenuity through the 60's, that's also the reason why they may be using it to open the London Olympics (not heard that though) but personally I couldn't think of anything more fitting to open the Olympics in England than the Avro Vulcan.

I'm finding it crazy that I would have to explain all this to an aviation enthusiast. There's plenty of crap flying around that I don't like but if i have the money spare at a show to make a donation I do so to preserve the history and the happiness of the people who do love that aircraft.

I guess the main reason why your argument is invalid is because its not your money your arguing over, also why do moral aspects even come into it? Surely if that were true you'd object to the Lancaster flying.

[Sternjaeger II]

ALL the story, i doubt that mate unless you worked on it yourself, rumors are rumors, when you say based in Brunters do you mean worked in Brunters as a civ?
Without going into too much detail, we were offered the possibility of collaborating with them as a hack plane, using our twin engined plane for ferry flights to move personnel etc.. but then they changed their minds and actually wanted to charge us for it (!!!).

Mate you are answering your own questions about the Vulcan with answers that you use for other restoration projects, its the same principle and the same passion. Why shouldn't they ask for donations?

All famous aircraft have a trust fund if its one of a kind and the only airworthy example. The government helps pay for unique things in this country but they only pay so much, as they do with the BBMF, the rest relys on public funding.

it's more of an exception to the rule than a standard thing. Most warbird operators do it only with their own means, they don't go around begging for money. Many airshow organisers don't even cover fuel costs anymore, and God knows how expensive an hour on a Mustang is.. still, they do it out of passion and with their own means, not begging around for money.


The people who pay to help keep this bird in the air do so because it defines a generation and not only that it is a unique aircraft that does define UK aviation and its ingenuity through the 60's, that's also the reason why they may be using it to open the London Olympics (not heard that though) but personally I couldn't think of anything more fitting to open the Olympics in England than the Avro Vulcan.

yeah, I'm sure that the Argentinians will be chuffed to bits about it :rolleyes:
Besides, what's better to promote the spirit of sport as an event that unites people from all over the world in a healthy competition than a former nuclear bomber?! :rolleyes:


I'm finding it crazy that I would have to explain all this to an aviation enthusiast. There's plenty of crap flying around that I don't like but if i have the money spare at a show to make a donation I do so to preserve the history and the happiness of the people who do love that aircraft.

I guess the main reason why your argument is invalid is because its not your money your arguing over, also why do moral aspects even come into it? Surely if that were true you'd object to the Lancaster flying.

Wait wait wait. There's a HUGE difference between a Lancaster flying and a Vulcan flying.
Lancasters contributed to the end of WW2, and albeit involved in the questionable trategic bombing of Germany, the sacrifice of so many young British airmen needs to be celebrated somehow.

I dunno if it's about the shape, the dark colour or the solemnity of the thing, but whenever the BBMF Lancaster flies at an airshow, there's silence and there's always a feeling of insight and respect, not excitement.

[Hood]

I frankly do not understand why so much effort and millions of pounds(!!!) were put into bringing back to the sky that thing.. I mean,what's so evocative about it? The Cold War? The nuclear threat? :confused:
To me it really feels like someone who wanted a very expensive hobby and is pursuing it thanks to people's generosity..

lol

I saw it flying at Farnborough Air Show this year. Several things amazed me. It seems really small close up, but compared to a Lancaster it was big. Then you realise that the Vulcan's wingspan is the same (almost) as the wingspan of the tailplane of the Airbus A380.

Taking off the thing looks weird, probably because it's a delta wing.

[bongodriver]

I don't get you at all Stern.......but I'm guessing you have a real stick up your arse with anything British (past threads have indicated this inclination)

The Vulcan has no more a questionable history than any other military machine in existence, they were built for a purpouse dictated by the times, are you really upset that it was used to drop bombs on an airfield in the Falklands?.........god forbid an aircraft built to be a bomber should do the job it was intended for (not like it dropped nukes on Bueno Aires)

[Sternjaeger II]

lol

I saw it flying at Farnborough Air Show this year. Several things amazed me. It seems really small close up, but compared to a Lancaster it was big. Then you realise that the Vulcan's wingspan is the same (almost) as the wingspan of the tailplane of the Airbus A380.

Taking off the thing looks weird, probably because it's a delta wing.

it's a helluva beast, seeing it taking off is surely impressive, although I have to say it was way more impressive when the Victor "accidentally" took off in Brunters in 2009 :mrgreen:

[Sternjaeger II]

I don't get you at all Stern.......but I'm guessing you have a real stick up your arse with anything British (past threads have indicated this inclination)
au contraire mon ami, I find British engineering to be fascinating to say the least. There's a lot of vision and unorthodox design in anything British, but this is not the point..


The Vulcan has no more a questionable history than any other military machine in existence, they were built for a purpouse dictated by the times, are you really upset that it was used to drop bombs on an airfield in the Falklands?.........god forbid an aircraft built to be a bomber should do the job it was intended for (not like it dropped nukes on Bueno Aires)

I simply think it's not worth spending all that money for such a plane, and worst of all I don't think it deserves all the attention and meaning it's been given, nowadays you stick a poppy and some flags on something and it must become a national symbol for the armed forces, come on, really? What's the significance of such a machine in historical terms? I'd rather have that money poured into the re-building of a Stirling or a Mosquito.. or how about the plane that never was, the TSR-2?

[bongodriver]

Bomber command is represented well enough by the 2+1 existing flyable Lancs, there are a few Mossies about and being restored, there is nothing else flying that represents the 'V force' and at least there are some to make airworthy, a Stirling would have to be remanufactured because there are none in existense, I personally would like to see a Halifax and a Wimpy....actually I'd rather see a Warwick because my uncle flew them in WWII.

TSR 2 would never be able to fly in the UK for the same reason we don't fly the Lightning and theres probably nobody left alive with any flight time on it.

The Vulcan is perfectly valid to represent British engineering and act as ambassador for British armed forces of the past, and if people want to pay for it....so be it, why don't you start a Stirling rebuild campaign and see if you can raise the funds?

[Sternjaeger II]

Bomber command is represented well enough by the 2+1 existing flyable Lancs, there are a few Mossies about and being restored, there is nothing else flying that represents the 'V force' and at least there are some to make airworthy, a Stirling would have to be remanufactured because there are none in existense, I personally would like to see a Halifax and a Wimpy....actually I'd rather see a Warwick because my uncle flew them in WWII.
Look better http://www.stirlingproject.co.uk/
and check what they're doing in Germany with the FW200.

The Vulcan instead is something like this: "heeeeey wassup biatches!? We would really like to take this Vulcan we have back to the sky, cos we think it's cool you know? But hey guess what, we're skint! We're gonna start scraping every bottom of every barrel for some pennies, and then we'll see what happens! It's fun, it's loud, it's huge! Yeah we need at least half a million every six months, but hey, it's fun, it's loud, it's huge!... uh and have I mentioned yet that it's fun, it's loud, it's huge?!" :rolleyes:

You simply do not take on such a project with no sound financial plan, it's utterly ridiculous.

Again, look what Lufthansa is doing with their Ju52 (and will do with their Super Connie): restoration according to a sound and affordable maintenance plan, plus the possibility to sell tickets to contribute to the expenses.

Truth is that the Vulcan belongs to a generation where the running costs of these machines were prohibitive for a whole country's GDP, let alone a private enterprise!


TSR 2 would never be able to fly in the UK for the same reason we don't fly the Lightning and theres probably nobody left alive with any flight time on it.

It's only a matter of time before Lightnings will get permission to fly now.
It will surely happen, like it happened in South Africa and USA.


The Vulcan is perfectly valid to represent British engineering and act as ambassador for British armed forces of the past, and if people want to pay for it....so be it, why don't you start a Stirling rebuild campaign and see if you can raise the funds?

I'd leave the "military ambassador of the past" role to a highly significant machine like the Lanc, and maybe take back to the air the Concorde as example of fine British engineering (or maybe make something new?!). No matter how hard you try, there's really no real motivation to fly the Vulcan other than personal interest. Morphing this personal interest into a "worthy cause" though is grotesque to say the least.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Really that narrow minded ? It is living history if we let it go people forget, just because its cold war or nuclear we shouldn't bother. Frankly that attitude sucks mate, do you feel the same about WW2 aircraft? And if its the death factor associated with nukes that's putting you off I assure you concord killed more people in its history than the Vulcan did.
Plus this, ever heard its howl? unique...

Precisely mate. On all counts.

The noise makes me think of a Tyrannosaurus Rex with the horn watching a pretty Tyrannosaurus Regina strutting her stuff. He gets so excited, his trousers start to get uncomfortable, so he lets out this primeval bellow that makes the whole Cretacious epoch shake.

Beats the pathetic human wolf whistle anyday.;)

[TomcatViP]

:shock::?:!! :confused: Someone hve to call Santa not to go in that house at Xmas night - Send some deer as scout patrol !

Regarding Stern comments I think that his arguments are valid especially concerning the Olympic flypast. It wld be way off context just like forgetting to invite her Majesty at the D-day celebration opening ceremony. Wonder what has happened in the planner mind ? And why not a defile of the colonial guard ?

By the way pushing frwd the Vulcan, a nuclear bomber designed to nuke Moscow, on a forum owned by a Russian company is a bit out of savoir vivre. Think abt some Frenchs requesting donation for a Jeanne d'Arc memorial in front of the Westminster church !

[bongodriver]

Look better http://www.stirlingproject.co.uk/


just a forward section.....

The Vulcan instead is something like this: "heeeeey wassup biatches!? We would really like to take this Vulcan we have back to the sky, cos we think it's cool you know? But hey guess what, we're skint! We're gonna start scraping every bottom of every barrel for some pennies, and then we'll see what happens! It's fun, it's loud, it's huge! Yeah we need at least half a million every six months, but hey, it's fun, it's loud, it's huge!... uh and have I mentioned yet that it's fun, it's loud, it's huge?!"

You simply do not take on such a project with no sound financial plan, it's utterly ridiculous.


No....the Vulcan is British built machine.....so it's loud because it's not a glider and has something to do with those british built rolls royce engines, I have met a few ex vulcan pilots in my time who said the aircraft was fantastic to fly, it represents a period in british history that is under represented (hunters are nice but theres loads of them), you may not like it but it is an impressive machine to see, financial plans?.....were in the UK mate......nothing like this would happen if generous folks didn't put up their hard earned......and nobody is putting a gun to their heads...or yours for that matter so you have nothing to say on that.

Again, look what Lufthansa is doing with their Ju52 (and will do with their Super Connie): restoration according to a sound and affordable maintenance plan, plus the possibility to sell tickets to contribute to the expenses.

EASA are working hard to prevent historic machines being used to carry fare paying members of the public.......I believe it's already the case, apparently they don't have inflatable escape slides....blah blah

It's only a matter of time before Lightnings will get permission to fly now.
It will surely happen, like it happened in South Africa and USA

I will ask someone I know in the Lightning preservation if thats the case but I would eat my shorts if it ever did.

I'd leave the "military ambassador of the past" role to a highly significant machine like the Lanc, and maybe take back to the air the Concorde as example of fine British engineering (or maybe make something new?!). No matter how hard you try, there's really no real motivation to fly the Vulcan other than personal interest. Morphing this personal interest into a "worthy cause" though is grotesque to say the least.

Ok sod it....just ban everything appart from tiger moths....what? all WWII British pilots flew them so they represent the whole lot, and are much cheaper.

[bongodriver]

By the way pushing frwd the Vulcan, a nuclear bomber designed to nuke Moscow, on a forum owned by a Russian company is a bit out of savoir vivre. Think abt some Frenchs requesting donation for a Jeanne d'Arc memorial out of the Westminster church !

The Vulcan is no more offensive than say an AK47.......it has certaily killed less people than an AK47

[TomcatViP]

The Vulcan is no more offensive than say an AK47.......it has certaily killed less people than an AK47

Agreed ! Small machine guns are the only one real WMD.

[bongodriver]

People kill people......not machines....for now....

[TomcatViP]

Just hve a look of man made slaughters vs weapon technology.

I defy you to makes a valid comparison of spear and bow vs hand launch grenades and machine guns showing that the kill ratio was higher at the ancient time. Have a look at the rescent Brux shooting. That guy won't even hve stabbed 2 ppl if only that what he had in hands :evil:

[bongodriver]

Make whatever comparisons you like....it's still people doing the killing

[Sternjaeger II]

just a forward section.....

there's enough material and info to make an airworthy one, especially with that kind of money. With 4 million quid you'd build back a whole Stirling and the maintenance costs would be a tenth (if not less!) of the Vulcan one.


No....the Vulcan is British built machine.....so it's loud because it's not a glider and has something to do with those british built rolls royce engines, I have met a few ex vulcan pilots in my time who said the aircraft was fantastic to fly,

still need to meet a pilot who didn't think his ride was the best in the world ;)


it represents a period in british history that is under represented (hunters are nice but theres loads of them),

and for a good reason I think, there's nothing glorious about those years.


you may not like it but it is an impressive machine to see,

I haven't said I don't like it, I think it's not necessary for it to fly if every season we have the same pathetic plea for money going on..

financial plans?.....were in the UK mate......nothing like this would happen if generous folks didn't put up their hard earned......and nobody is putting a gun to their heads...or yours for that matter so you have nothing to say on that.

Taurine manure, you still need to plan for something like this in a sound way, it's not like your garage restoration of a Morris 8. They hired staff to do this job, it became a full time employment for people.

You obviously know little about the whole thing.. the "mysterious" donation of large chunks of money are a good way of avoiding taxes... do I really have to explain this?! :confused:


EASA are working hard to prevent historic machines being used to carry fare paying members of the public.......I believe it's already the case, apparently they don't have inflatable escape slides....blah blah

I doubt it. I personally flew on the Lufthansa Ju52 in two occasions, they treat it like a plane of their fleet.


I will ask someone I know in the Lightning preservation if thats the case but I would eat my shorts if it ever did.

Yeah see what they say.


Ok sod it....just ban everything appart from tiger moths....what? all WWII British pilots flew them so they represent the whole lot, and are much cheaper.

That's nonsense, I'm talking about keeping things feasible and not wasting so much money for the revenue and entertainment of a few folks. To them it's not a hobby, it's a business.

[BPickles]

This has gone absolutely F'in ridiculous now, so we shouldn't have the Vulcan fly at our country's hosting of the Olympics in case it offends the Argies?
If the organizers choose that aircraft i'll support it all the way, and i couldn't care what the rest of the world thinks, especially as the UK in the last 30 years has castrated itself and its citizens rights time and time again to benefit other nations.
Fly the Vulcan!

Clearly Stern your issue is with the Restoration team cos every post seems to be a crack at them and how you wouldn't do it like they do, so this is clearly some inter-restoration team rivalry crap.

Now if you don't mind I've got some crying and being offended to do as I've just seen a Tu95 in UK airspace on a documentary that was aired today, shocking that a documentary would should that in this day and age, its just so savoir vivre.

[Sternjaeger II]

But how they ask for money, and their desire to restore something lost are two different things. Even though they go hand in hand, the desire to bring something old back to life, and preserve it IMO is a good thing, regardless of what it is. Even though somethings might be mundane (say you're trying to restore a Roman village to preserve it for history), there's still a story to be told there. Don't confuse the money side of it with the actual project. You might not see anything heroic about the Vulcan, yet it was still a part of a history that will be lost to generations eventually. I've helped my dad restore countless old cars throughout the years, some were classics, some would make you scratch your head and say "Why THAT car?", but I found that even the crappiest car had a history that I learned to appreciate when restoring it. One I wouldn't have known otherwise, and learning about it, I shared it with freinds and people who were interested. (For example, ask most Americans about Austin Healeys, or original Austin-Minis, or Lancia Stratos and they know nothing, it wasn't an American car, or a famous brand/type, yet I learned how they worked and why they made their own niche working on some my Dad found.)

that's all very true, and I do my fair bit of car restoration too, but you're not going out asking for millions of pounds to restore it though, are you? It's a balance between costs and importance, and the Vulcan is not that important, period.

[Sternjaeger II]

This has gone absolutely F'in ridiculous now, so we shouldn't have the Vulcan fly at our country's hosting of the Olympics in case it offends the Argies?
well hopefully the PC madness that has been reigning over here in the last 10 years will take care of this, and anyway a military nuclear bomber from the Cold War has nothing to do with the spirit of Olympic Games, it's like going to a Bar Mitzvah in a Kubelwagen: uncalled for.


If the organizers choose that aircraft i'll support it all the way, and i couldn't care what the rest of the world thinks, especially as the UK in the last 30 years has castrated itself and its citizens rights time and time again to benefit other nations.
Fly the Vulcan!

yeah, how about you stop living in the nostalgia for the past "when everything was better" and make something of the present, which is a bloody mess?


Clearly Stern your issue is with the Restoration team cos every post seems to be a crack at them and how you wouldn't do it like they do, so this is clearly some inter-restoration team rivalry crap.

no no no, not with the restoration team, which is a fantastic bunch of skilled folks, I'm against the whole idea and the frontman (and the few hidden characters behind him).
I fly with and restore completely different things, never been a huge fan of jets, but I respect people that do their restoration and labour of love on them on their own means, using volunteers and trying to make it an educational experience for who wants to, not milking others.


Now if you don't mind I've got some crying and being offended to do as I've just seen a Tu95 in UK airspace on a documentary that was aired today, shocking that a documentary would should that in this day and age, its just so savoir vivre.

[bongodriver]

Whats the difference if people pay the money willingly?

[bongodriver]

there's enough material and info to make an airworthy one, especially with that kind of money. With 4 million quid you'd build back a whole Stirling and the maintenance costs would be a tenth (if not less!) of the Vulcan one.

Like I said....if it offends you that the Stirling is under represented then start your own charity to build a whole one.....you know.....just like a certain group of Vulcan enthusiasts.

still need to meet a pilot who didn't think his ride was the best in the world

I guess you need to meet more pilots......I have met plenty that hated some of the aircraft they flew

and for a good reason I think, there's nothing glorious about those years.

Who says it's all about glory, it mostly represents a time when the UK had the capability....you know.....like the same reason we have the HMS Victory, if it is in bad taste to represent something that has a shady past then I'd suggest taking a disk cutter to every Luftwaffe machine in existense.......non?

I haven't said I don't like it, I think it's not necessary for it to fly if every season we have the same pathetic plea for money going on..

every aircraft flying in the world is being kept aloft by money........what option do they have?

Taurine manure, you still need to plan for something like this in a sound way, it's not like your garage restoration of a Morris 8. They hired staff to do this job, it became a full time employment for people.

You obviously know little about the whole thing.. the "mysterious" donation of large chunks of money are a good way of avoiding taxes... do I really have to explain this?!

You mean like the £25,000 donation that your own linked Stirling restoration mentions? I clearly have a better grasp of things than you credit me

I doubt it. I personally flew on the Lufthansa Ju52 in two occasions, they treat it like a plane of their fleet.

Interesting......it was a very different story for the Air Atlantique DC 3's and 6's, but I guess it's because they are not German, and just for your info I used to work for Air Atlantique.

That's nonsense, I'm talking about keeping things feasible and not wasting so much money for the revenue and entertainment of a few folks. To them it's not a hobby, it's a business.

Bovine excrement......it's all a hobby, the entertainment is for the airshow public in the UK (who are the ones paying the money you resent).....Vulcan plc.....please!!!

[Sternjaeger II]

Look, never mind, you just see the glamorous side of it, I unfortunately saw the not so fancy murky side, and I'm not enthused about it, simple as that.

[IamNotDavid]

As long as tax money isn't being used, why would anyone care what they're doing? They could be collecting money to build a Millennium Falcon for all I care.

[bongodriver]

Look, never mind, you just see the glamorous side of it, I unfortunately saw the not so fancy murky side, and I'm not enthused about it, simple as that.

Yeah....of course you did.......what an ex Vulcan pilot stole your girlfriend?.....you were standing in the middle of Port Stanleys runway in 82?......some of the restoration crew mugged you and emptied your wallet?

[bongodriver]

As long as tax money isn't being used, why would anyone care what they're doing? They could be collecting money to build a Millennium Falcon for all I care.

I'm pretty sure US tax money won't go near it....and certainly no UK tax money is being used....it's all charitable donation

[Bewolf]

lol, such a fuzz over a restauration project?

The british V bomber force was quite remarkeable in many ways. Maybe ultimately useless, but the pure looks of these aircraft make them icons and an important part of the cold war and the british aircraft industry. I'd not complain to see one flying in real.

[Sternjaeger II]

Yeah....of course you did.......what an ex Vulcan pilot stole your girlfriend?.....you were standing in the middle of Port Stanleys runway in 82?......some of the restoration crew mugged you and emptied your wallet?

taking the conversation a notch up uh Bongo? :rolleyes:

Truth is that some people are so selfish they don't care how a plane gets back to the air, as long as it does.
That has little to do with the spirit of aviation restoration, if you can't see the difference then you can't really appreciate the real value of aircraft restoration in general.

[Sternjaeger II]

Like I said....if it offends you that the Stirling is under represented then start your own charity to build a whole one.....you know.....just like a certain group of Vulcan enthusiasts.

it was just an example man.


I guess you need to meet more pilots......I have met plenty that hated some of the aircraft they flew

you know exactly what I meant. It's not like you love all the planes you fly with, but if your career highlight was with that batwing of a plane, of course you're gonna have fond memories of it. I have to admit I found its cabin a bit claustrophobic, but then again that's me..


Who says it's all about glory, it mostly represents a time when the UK had the capability....you know.....like the same reason we have the HMS Victory, if it is in bad taste to represent something that has a shady past then I'd suggest taking a disk cutter to every Luftwaffe machine in existense.......non?

Yeah, there's always this dusting off of the past glories, it recollects with what we were saying some time ago with Bewolf: you cling onto the past and can't let go. The Vulcan is a minor chapter of history, do we really need to pump 4 and a half million pounds in it, then ask for more? It's not like it's gonna get cheaper to run in the future, can you really justify such an expense to keep that thing airworthy?


every aircraft flying in the world is being kept aloft by money........what option do they have?

that is a lot of money to keep one aircraft airborne.


You mean like the £25,000 donation that your own linked Stirling restoration mentions? I clearly have a better grasp of things than you credit me

Oh yeah, I'm sure it compares well with the millions that went into the Vulcan :rolleyes:


Interesting......it was a very different story for the Air Atlantique DC 3's and 6's, but I guess it's because they are not German, and just for your info I used to work for Air Atlantique.

Well, as you know the Germans know how to do things properly, it's only wars they can't quite get their heads around ;)


Bovine excrement......it's all a hobby, the entertainment is for the airshow public in the UK (who are the ones paying the money you resent).....Vulcan plc.....please!!!
nope, it's a job. Check out their website (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/), the amount of sponsors, the online shopping links, and they still beg for money.. it's like trying to patch up the Titanic breech with a plaster..

[bongodriver]

taking the conversation a notch up uh Bongo? :rolleyes:

Truth is that some people are so selfish they don't care how a plane gets back to the air, as long as it does.
That has little to do with the spirit of aviation restoration, if you can't see the difference then you can't really appreciate the real value of aircraft restoration in general.

Not really.......I just found your statement too cryptic.....mind elaborating on what you find so shady?

When you are looking to raise that much cash then you need to do a bit more than pass a hat around don't you think?

it was just an example man.

Yes....it was your example of something else you wouild rather see happening.....your point?

you know exactly what I meant. It's not like you love all the planes you fly with, but if your career highlight was with that batwing of a plane, of course you're gonna have fond memories of it. I have to admit I found its cabin a bit claustrophobic, but then again that's me..

At least one of the Vulcan pilots I met had time in Lightnings......still loved the Vulcan, I do know what you mean and you have back pedaled on it somewhat, like alot of your contributions they are 'just you' and not taking into account anybody else, you are entitled to feel any way you want like I am entitled to tell you you are wrong :grin:

Yeah, there's always this dusting off of the past glories, it recollects with what we were saying some time ago with Bewolf: you cling onto the past and can't let go. The Vulcan is a minor chapter of history, do we really need to pump 4 and a half million pounds in it, then ask for more? It's not like it's gonna get cheaper to run in the future, can you really justify such an expense to keep that thing airworthy?

This old crap again....it's OUR history, we will signify it anyway we wish to, we don't ask to put the HMS Victory in the centre of Paris, we don't ask to fly the Vulcan over moscow, these are in the UK for the people of the UK to enjoy at their leisure, you are obviously pumping nothing into it so you have ZERO entitlement to complain about the money, the money comes from WILLING donors and some enterprising merchandising (targeted towards the nostalgic and patriotic BRITISH public)

that is a lot of money to keep one aircraft airborne.

it would cost just about the same to keep the 'half french' one in the air

Oh yeah, I'm sure it compares well with the millions that went into the Vulcan

for the people that are actually paying the money I dare say yes..

Well, as you know the Germans know how to do things properly, it's only wars they can't quite get their heads around

Yes like making EASA apply the restriction to aircraft with over 19 seats to ensure the JU52 is exempt.

nope, it's a job. Check out their website, the amount of sponsors, the online shopping links, and they still beg for money.. it's like trying to patch up the Titanic breech with a plaster..

theres nothing criminal or immoral about sponsorship and merchandising, it's how almost everything works these days and thats before they take the publics money, it's no more pointless than a football club.

[Bewolf]

Yeah, there's always this dusting off of the past glories, it recollects with what we were saying some time ago with Bewolf: you cling onto the past and can't let go. The Vulcan is a minor chapter of history, do we really need to pump 4 and a half million pounds in it, then ask for more? It's not like it's gonna get cheaper to run in the future, can you really justify such an expense to keep that thing airworthy?


If you bring me into this, though I agree to your general opinion of the british (very generalizing, sorry) being too much on the history side of things making them somewhat blind to current realities, I do not think going to the other side of the extremes is much healthier. You still need to know where you come from to decide where to go next.

And in regards to money, I rather see ppl coming together investing in such a project for personal fascination and open display then another hundret millions yacht by some rich schmock just to have another status symbol.

[bongodriver]

Everyone has their faults.......glass houses.

[IamNotDavid]

Everyone has their faults.......glass houses.

You might want to reconsider your project to build a glass house. It's not worth the cost, and you'll have to invest even more money in curtains once it's done.

[TomcatViP]

And in regards to money, I rather see ppl coming together investing in such a project for personal fascination and open display then another hundret millions yacht by some rich schmock just to have another status symbol.


Wolf you just show us the way to solve this ongoing conflict : use that big batwing has a conversion of an expensive useless yacht into a green sailer (it's already painted in the right colors) :rolleyes:

[bongodriver]

You might want to reconsider your project to build a glass house. It's not worth the cost, and you'll have to invest even more money in curtains once it's done.

?

[IamNotDavid]

?

I was overreacting to your comment about living in glass houses.

[Bewolf]

Wolf you just show us the way to solve this ongoing conflict : use that big batwing has a conversion of an expensive useless yacht into a green sailer (it's already painted in the right colors) :rolleyes:

TomCat, I do not think I really understood what you want to say here =)

[BPickles]

.. and anyway a military nuclear bomber from the Cold War has nothing to do with the spirit of Olympic Games, it's like going to a Bar Mitzvah in a Kubelwagen: uncalled for.


LMAO! Epic

But, how would the Lanc flying over be any better, surely that would be worse. They flying it to becuase thats the only British thing we have left in this country cos we sold everything else, plus the hosting country shows off something unique and from its country at the start of the games, all the countries have done it, I think it would be better if the thing dropped a great big 12000lb'r, especially as the "once" free games have now become just like every other money making scheme on the planet.

[winny]

I think that this discusson is overlooking the fact that the UK is no longer producing it's own warplanes.. (Thanks Maggie and co.).

All we have is a History of building them, so I think in general we're a little reluctant to let them go. (Cue lots of 'I remember when Britain was great' type statements). It's another in a long line of British engineering projects that get re-hashed/restored simply out of a long lost national pride in building stuff.

Whatever the motivation the Vulcan as an Aircraft is worth seeing when it flies. I think that the aviation/air show world is better off having a flying vulcan than not having one, if only so that people get to see it. If people wanna donate that's fine. The fact that it's a nuclear bomber is irrelevant to me, after all, all warplanes were designed to kill and if you start arguing that one type of killing is better/worse than another than you're morally lost.

It's more about herritage and lost industry than the celebration of a bomber designed to wipe cities off the map.

Old warplanes are all, without exception, money pits. To say that spending 4.5 million on the Vulcan is a waste of money is entirely subjective. It totally depends on if you think it's worth it. Some do some don't, ce la vie.

[bongodriver]

I think that this discusson is overlooking the fact that the UK is no longer producing it's own warplanes.. (Thanks Maggie and co.).

All we have is a History of building them, so I think in general we're a little reluctant to let them go. (Cue lots of 'I remember when Britain was great' type statements). It's another in a long line of British engineering projects that get re-hashed/restored simply out of a long lost national pride in building stuff.

Whatever the motivation the Vulcan as an Aircraft is worth seeing when it flies. I think that the aviation/air show world is better off having a flying vulcan than not having one, if only so that people get to see it. If people wanna donate that's fine. The fact that it's a nuclear bomber is irrelevant to me, after all, all warplanes were designed to kill and if you start arguing that one type of killing is better/worse than another than you're morally lost.

It's more about herritage and lost industry than the celebration of a bomber designed to wipe cities off the map.

Old warplanes are all, without exception, money pits. To say that spending 4.5 million on the Vulcan is a waste of money is entirely subjective. It totally depends on if you think it's worth it. Some do some don't, ce la vie.

Winny I already made this very argument but someone seems to be a .little upset because they are selling baseball caps

[winny]

Winny I already made this very argument but someone seems to be a .little upset because they are selling baseball caps

They're selling baseball caps!!??? How dare they! :)

Quick, somebody call the merchandise police.

Just for the record I like the Vulcan. I'm glad that people get a chance to see it in the air. In the same way I'm glad there are Spit's, 51's, Vampires, sabres Migs, Phantoms et al.

The Vulcan is part of the celebration of flight through the ages. Not a celebration of an attack on Port Stanley.

[IamNotDavid]

Flying the Vulcan in the Olympic opening ceremonies is stupid. They should fly a Spitfire and a Hurricane. Nothing else comes close.

[bongodriver]

Flying the Vulcan in the Olympic opening ceremonies is stupid. They should fly a Spitfire and a Hurricane. Nothing else comes close.

I quite agree, despite my liking of the Vulcan I think the ceremony should be opened by aircraft that are actually operated by our armed forces....the BBMF Lanc Spit and Hurri and the Red Arrows in particular.

[bongodriver]

There's selling baseball caps!!??? How dare they! :)

Quick, somebody call the merchandise police.

Just for the record I like the Vulcan. I'm glad that people get a chance to see it in the air. In the same way I'm glad there are Spit's, 51's, Vampires, sabres Migs, Phantoms et al.

The Vulcan is part of the celebration of flight through the ages. Not a celebration of an attack on Port Stanley.

Exactly.....but for some reason everytime the Brits want to do something remotely patriotic everybody else want's to shove some past event up our backsides, apparently us using a bomber during a war is a crime.....

[Bewolf]

Using military aircraft, no matter what kind or of what period, for the opening ceremonies of the olympics is a bit of an oxymoron, imho. The olympics are the antithesis to armed conflict. This issue has nothing to do with patriotism (unless the only means of showing patriotism is in the military, which in the case of the UK I highly doubt)

[winny]

I quite agree, despite my liking of the Vulcan I think the ceremony should be opened by aircraft that are actually operated by our armed forces....the BBMF Lanc Spit and Hurri and the Red Arrows in particular.

Me too, the Vulcan is ok in an Aviation setting, seems a little random to be in the opening ceremony of the Olympics.

Just let the Red Arrows do it, not sure the BBMF would be wise, they are a little too jingo-istic to be involved in a worldwide celebration of one-ness. I dont think WW2 refereces are relevant to a sporting event. You can imagine all the German competitors thinking 'not again, when are they gonna stop reminding us about it!'

EDIT: Bewolf beat me to it..

[IamNotDavid]

I quite agree, despite my liking of the Vulcan I think the ceremony should be opened by aircraft that are actually operated by our armed forces....the BBMF Lanc Spit and Hurri and the Red Arrows in particular.

I would not even include the Lanc. The Spitfire and Hurricane saved the country while the Lanc was still sitting on the ground.

[bongodriver]

Using military aircraft, no matter what kind or of what period, for the opening ceremonies of the olympics is a bit of an oxymoron, imho. The olympics are the antithesis to armed conflict. This issue has nothing to do with patriotism (unless the only means of showing patriotism is in the military, which in the case of the UK I highly doubt)

Actually it's more for the 'spectacle' of having the national aerobatic team do their stuff........or is that blatant sword waving too?

[Bewolf]

Actually it's more for the 'spectacle' of having the national aerobatic team do their stuff........or is that blatant sword waving too?

Red Arrows are cool and more then fitting to the setting. Its all about Aerobatics after all ;)

[Davedog74]

il never forget going to airshows with my late father and seeing the vulcan,i wouldnt want the kids of today to miss out on that,if people want to donate good on them,and after reading some of the comments here il donate double what i intended to.
red arrows for the olympics though,the best in the world for the best in the world

[winny]

What's also being overlooked here is passion.

The Vulcan is'nt a representitive of British power it's a representitive of British engineering. It was put back in the air by enthusiasts. It's geeks with spanners and a passion. They looked at the vulcan and said let's get it flying again. If they end up spending 10 million on it then good on them. They got off their arses and actually did it.

Where passion and emotion are envolved who gives a **** about money.

It's a piece of aviation history. People who would never have seen a Vulcan fly have now, and as a fan of all things winged I say that it's a good thing.

I am greatful to the people who keep all obsolete types flying, just so that I can see them where they are meant to be seen. In the air.

[kendo65]

Personally speaking I'd like to see it kept flying, not for anything to do with its historical significance or as an exemplar of British engineering or patriotism, but solely for the sheer visceral thrill of experiencing such a machine at close quarters. (I experienced this a few years back. The video posted gives a fair idea of what it is like)

It's also surprisingly maneouverable for such a large aircraft. Read an account in a magazine from a Lightning pilot who recalled himself and his wingman trying unsuccessfully for over 30 minutes to get a (simulated) kill on a well-flown Vulcan in an exercise in the 70s.

Don't think that the Vulcan, or for that matter the BOB flight or any other historical or current military aircraft should be involved with the Olympics though. [actually, scratch that - as others have said, the Red Arrows would be great]

[Fossil-Goz]

Re the Openning Ceremony for the Olympics, as an aviation enthusiast lets have as many historic aircraft as possible. It's gotta be better than the Kangaroo's on bicycles that we had prior to the Sydney Olympics (cringe).

[ElAurens]

Why keep the Vulcan flying?

Because it may be the coolest aircraft currently flying that doesn't have a prop tacked on it's nose.

That's reason enough.

[=FI=Scott]

Seeing a Vulcan fly is great. Hearing it fly is something else.