Battle of Chernobyl

[nearmiss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwern8d-iPY

Complete playist - this is over 1 hour of videos

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0715A4C2DCA0350B&feature=plcp

This is a most relevant issue facing the entire world, not just Chernobyl, but nuclear power plants altogether.

Not a political issue... a crime against mankind.

This is about Chernobyl, but to date there have been several meltdown accidents in USA and now Japan.

[swiss]

This is probably the most relevant issue facing the entire world, not just Chernobyl, but nuclear power plants altogether.

Not a political issue... a crime against mankind.

Atm we have exactly ZERO alternatives to NPPs.

[retrojet]

...and a Merry Christmas to you, too!

Half-life of 250,000 years... Give or take... Couldn't this wait till the new year?

:)

But joking aside. :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:

We need to invest everything in solar power... Before the supernova...

But thanks for the link... These facts are undeniable, but not to be used as an excuse for upping fossil fuel production!

...Now canada is threatening the USA with sales of oil to china, if the pipe-line isn't ok'd!! What's this world coming to?! Oh, yer... 2012... Hehehaha!

[nearmiss]

...and a Merry Christmas to you, too!

Half-life of 250,000 years... Give or take... Couldn't this wait till the new year?

:)

But joking aside. :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:

We need to invest everything in solar power... Before the supernova...

No one is talking about nuclear energy. The New York Academy of Sciences recently released a report indicating Chernobyl has already cost over 1 million lives.

When I started reading up on Nuclear Power, the way they manage waste, etc. It is a nightmare beyond anything imaginable.

Before it is done the damage at Fukushima,Japan will make Nagasaki and Heroshima look like firecrackers for damage compared to meltdowns in three reactors.

I can't imagine any country wanting nuclear anything. When they have an accident the consequences are un-imaginable. Note I said, "When".

I find it interesting how quiet the media has become worldwide about the Japanese meltdowns.

The Fukushima meltdowns will probably within the next 30 years be responsible for killing millions. The land for miles from the reactors will be a dead zone for thousands of years.

It is unbelieveable that any government could embrace such a technology with "eternal consequences" for failure.

Fossil fuels have their problems. The amount money dedicated to Nuclear energy research if applied to fossil fuels would have resulted in cleaner fuel by now, it just wasn't expedient to do so.

[retrojet]

It's sad, it's scary... But unless cold fusion is more than just wishful thinking, nuclear energy is not going away... I am just glad I dont live next to it!

You're so right to be concerned/outraged... But it's like the global financial meltdown... The little guy doesn't have a say! He just gets to suffer the consequences!!
One day, when it all goes pear-shaped, those responsible will just move on to mars... Once the atmosphere has been altered per their specifications... I'm sure there are people working on it... That's what progressive thinkers are for...

oh!
...and a Happy New Year!...

...live each day like its your last! Because you never know....! :???:

[nearmiss]

It's sad, it's scary... But unless cold fusion is more than just wishful thinking, nuclear energy is not going away... I am just glad I dont live next to it!

You're so right to be concerned/outraged... But it's like the global financial meltdown... The little guy doesn't have a say! He just gets to suffer the consequences!!
One day, when it all goes pear-shaped, those responsible will just move on to mars... Once the atmosphere has been altered per their specifications... I'm sure there are people working on it... That's what progressive thinkers are for...

oh!
...and a Happy New Year!...

...live each day like its your last! Because you never know....! :???:

Germany has plans to cease use of nuclear power within the next couple years. Germany has experienced nuclear radiation from Chernobyl and the they dont' want more of the same from their own plants.

About all that can be done is to keep governments from allowing anymore to be built. Since 3 mile island meltdown in USA not another plant has been built. The energy money grubbers are licking their chops, patiently waiting for the chance to build more.

[Pudfark]

@nearmiss

What do you suggest for cheap energy in Japan?
What affordable alternative do they have?

Therein lies the problem....affordable?
"Clean/renewable" energy is so expensive....nobody can/will afford it.

[Pudfark]

Germany has plans to cease use of nuclear power within the next couple years. Germany has experienced nuclear radiation from Chernobyl and the they dont' want more of the same from their own plants.

About all that can be done is to keep governments from allowing anymore to be built. Since 3 mile island meltdown in USA not another plant has been built. The energy money grubbers are licking their chops, patiently waiting for the chance to build more.

How about the STNP South Texas Nuclear Plant, built in the 1980's?

[retrojet]

It's not a sane world... And never will be... It makes me wish that the film 'the day the earth stood still' would become science fact, not science fiction...!
We need to be taught a 'BIG' lesson because of the greed and devestatiion we cause...!

It's a shame the dinosaurs got wiped out... I'm sure it would still be a paradise with them in the drivers seat, instead of us... We would just need to run and hide... More than what we do now...

[Bewolf]

@nearmiss

What do you suggest for cheap energy in Japan?
What affordable alternative do they have?

Therein lies the problem....affordable?
"Clean/renewable" energy is so expensive....nobody can/will afford it.

Well, the Japanese have an island right there and that offers plentiful opportunities for alternatives. The problem is, it will take quite a while to build that up.

I personally was indifferent towards the problem for a long time up until I got to know that at least in Germany, NPPs are insecureable (Means, if one blows up, the taxpayer has to take care of the damage. I am also worried about the implications, that securers obviously deem the prevailing risk as too high to take any chances. Would be interested to know how that situation is in the UK or the US, for example). Also, Europe is a densly populated place, if a plant goes up here it will potentially effect millions. Add that to the problem that to this day no definitive nuclear waste site has been found to store this stuff for the next million years and you have some problems you can't just ignore. Add to that the huge construction plans for nuclear sites all over the globe and you just create another dependent infrastructure that repeats the old oil cycle of having to secure ressources to make sure you do not run out of fuel (not to talk about the huge amounts of subsidies going into nuclear plants not only in Germany, but all over the place, that could be very much used for alternatives).

IMHO nuclear sounds good on paper but in practice simply makes too much trouble in the long run. "Affordable" in this regard is a very relative term.

[Sternjaeger II]

the real problem about energy is that it's the biggest market on the planet, and as you know, market rules do not work to the advantage of mankind, but to the profit of few..

We do have alternative routes to follow: cold fusion is not a chimera as it used to be, and there are newer and more efficient techniques to be used in terms of nuclear energy.
Renewable energy is a modest patch up, it's not as reliable as others and still needs costly maintenance.

The real first, big step we should all do is reducing our consumption: I'm sure that if you look around yourselves right now you can find a lot of examples of unnecessary energy waste (AC transformers, lights on, PCs on that don't really need to be..). You know how many office kitchens have boilers that boil water 24/7? All that for a bit of coffee and tea?! We really really need to change our attitude towards energy consumption before pointing our fingers at the yet most efficient form of energy making.

[Kodoss]

The problem by renewable energy is not the production of it or its mainenance. The problem is that you have to storage it for the time, when their is no wind or sun shining.

But even for that their are solutions (http://www.poppware.de/Links_und_Downloads/Pdf_Ringwall_BWK200012053058.pdf), you have only to convice the citizens(worst job ever).

[ingsoc84]

Germany has plans to cease use of nuclear power within the next couple years. Germany has experienced nuclear radiation from Chernobyl and the they dont' want more of the same from their own plants.

About all that can be done is to keep governments from allowing anymore to be built. Since 3 mile island meltdown in USA not another plant has been built. The energy money grubbers are licking their chops, patiently waiting for the chance to build more.

So the "nuclear" moneygrubbers are just chomping at the bit to build more reactors? I though it was "big oil" that were the moneygrubbers in the energy business...do you mean to tell me that there are more than one band of money grubbers looking to steal our money to keep the lights on? Couldn't imagine that.

So what do you suggest? NO fossil fuels? No Nuclear power plants? Solyndra sure worked out well in the States, there is another 1/2 billion down the tubes for "clean efficient affordable solar energy". Maybe solar cells can power up all our homes and cars? Not likely.

Bad old nuclear power...Ohh my...and where is your proof that if the could have diverted all the money spent on nuclear construction, research etc., and developed a cleaner form of fossil fuel or other fuel? There is none, it's just an assumption.

The Germans shutting off their Nuclear reactors? Great..so one day when Russia decides they need to pay more for natural gas/electricity and they don't like the price, the Russians can shut it off during the winter just like they did in the Ukraine a few years ago, that ought to work out well.

As far as Chernobyl is concerned, it's amazing anything mechanical in that country works, let alone something built during the Soviet period. Have you ever been there? They still make gigantic apartment blocks just like they did in the 30's...cheap. shoddy, the entire country looks like a giant machine that has been left out to rust in the rain for the past 50 years, and that's being polite. It's truly amazing given their lack of building standards now and especially then that that reactor didn't have a problem day one when it went online.

[nearmiss]

How about the STNP South Texas Nuclear Plant, built in the 1980's?

It was my understanding 3 mile island was the game stopper for further nuke plants.

[nearmiss]

Go to this site and watch videos.

http://divulge.co/truth/

Just get your head around this... half life on the plutonium in Chernobyl is 245,000 years. The entire recorded history of mankind is around 10,000 years.

They are dumping nuclear waste in the oceans, they are stock piling it 2,000 feet below ground in New Mexico.

The earth is a dynamic moving thing. Earth quakes, storms, tsunami and all manner of powerful natural disasters could at any time create an emergency with waste stockpiles. Not counting the disasters that can and have occurred at nuclear plants.

It is not about the alternatives at all. Nuclear radiation is beyond a horror story when it is uncontrolled and controlled.

They nuke proponents say the plants are safe. Yeah, just like at Fukushima. No doubt if you put your trust in some one with such a large responsibility you will at some point be let down. We read and see it every day in the news. The nuclear scientists are messing with the future of millions of people as they experiment on us with cancer hell.

There are options, but governments are manipulated by special interests all over the world. The Iranians don't want what their government is doing, but their government doesn't care what they want. The people that run many governments are empowered and make choices for their countries based on their own selfish purposes. It's all over the world like this, and the consequences are beyond horrific for all organic life.

There are options for conserving energy that have not be addressed in developed countries all over the globe. The Global warming thing has been proved to be a grandiose hoax, but I'm sure there have been positive things that came from it. I'm for just about trying anything as compared to the kind of eternal disasters associated with nuclear power.

Think on this... The huge sarcophagus they are building over Chernobyl will cost over a billion dollars. How long will that structure last? In light of the fact the half life of the plutonium enclosed by that sarcophagus will still be virulent 245,000 years from now what is the potential for disaster? A hundred years is like forever to us... human beings. We have no concept of such a length of time, and certainly should never usurp future generations with the burden of administering and dealing with our current energy problems.

[Bewolf]

the real problem about energy is that it's the biggest market on the planet, and as you know, market rules do not work to the advantage of mankind, but to the profit of few..

We do have alternative routes to follow: cold fusion is not a chimera as it used to be, and there are newer and more efficient techniques to be used in terms of nuclear energy.
Renewable energy is a modest patch up, it's not as reliable as others and still needs costly maintenance.

The real first, big step we should all do is reducing our consumption: I'm sure that if you look around yourselves right now you can find a lot of examples of unnecessary energy waste (AC transformers, lights on, PCs on that don't really need to be..). You know how many office kitchens have boilers that boil water 24/7? All that for a bit of coffee and tea?! We really really need to change our attitude towards energy consumption before pointing our fingers at the yet most efficient form of energy making.

The german government has implemented subsaries for exactly that purpose, motivating house keepers to invest in energy saving measures like temperature dampening to bring consumption down. I agree, becoming more efficient in regards to energy waste is a big part of the equation. That also means lots of people having to get rid of their convinience in their daily lives, but pressing a button or shutting down the light can't be such a huge sacrifice.

In regards to cold fusion, I am curior what ITER will achieve, but I am not holding my breath for any feasible solutions from this direction anytime soon.

[Bewolf]

So the "nuclear" moneygrubbers are just chomping at the bit to build more reactors? I though it was "big oil" that were the moneygrubbers in the energy business...do you mean to tell me that there are more than one band of money grubbers looking to steal our money to keep the lights on? Couldn't imagine that.

What big business isn't a money grubber? It's part of their very nature, that has to be accepted and taken into account without any ill feelings. After all that is how capitalism works.


So what do you suggest? NO fossil fuels? No Nuclear power plants? Solyndra sure worked out well in the States, there is another 1/2 billion down the tubes for "clean efficient affordable solar energy". Maybe solar cells can power up all our homes and cars? Not

Actually, that is exactly where it will ultimately lead too. Fossil fuels are running out, the reserves we still have require ever more expensive and dangerous exploitation methods while world demand still climbs. Now you certainly can try to fight another couple wars to secure those reserves, but given the costs for modern wars (what was Iraq? 3 Trillion?), environmental costs and the potential damage to other industries like fishing, I am not sure the final bill really justifies that policy.


Bad old nuclear power...Ohh my...and where is your proof that if the could have diverted all the money spent on nuclear construction, research etc., and developed a cleaner form of fossil fuel or other fuel? There is none, it's just an assumption.

Nothing bad about it, just becoming a bit outdated and too many open questions that hang in the air for 40+ years without answers to this date. In Germany some 300 billion have been spend on nuclear energy subsidies over the last decades, compared to around 40 billion on renewables. There is no "proof" that this money would have achieved more if it went into nuclear, but the likelyhood is quite obvious, especially when looking at the recent achievements in developments of alternatives. Too many ppl assume we already are at the end of line in regards to alternatives development, while in fact we are just at the beginning. Broad application of those technologies will only accelerate this development, if comparisons to other new technologies and their history are taken into account.


The Germans shutting off their Nuclear reactors? Great..so one day when Russia decides they need to pay more for natural gas/electricity and they don't like the price, the Russians can shut it off during the winter just like they did in the Ukraine a few years ago, that ought to work out well.

huh? AFAIK, Russia needs our money as much as we need their gas. Even during the most tense days of the cold war the russians made their deliveries here. I doubt that will change anytime soon. There is a reason why there was a new pipeline built through the baltic going around countries like Ukraine who fail to pay their bills. (the political questions that raises have to be debated on another page)


As far as Chernobyl is concerned, it's amazing anything mechanical in that country works, let alone something built during the Soviet period. Have you ever been there? They still make gigantic apartment blocks just like they did in the 30's...cheap. shoddy, the entire country looks like a giant machine that has been left out to rust in the rain for the past 50 years, and that's being polite. It's truly amazing given their lack of building standards now and especially then that that reactor didn't have a problem day one when it went online.

I do not think slamming of russian tech, justified or not, has a lot to do with current day problems in regards to energy consumption and future developments.

[nearmiss]

Governments can control capitalism.

Governments can control just about everything. They have the power, whether they take it with despotic rule or acquire it by democratic vote.

It is incomprehensible to think that governments could be so uncaring about the potential of nuclear energy for eternal disaster.

[Sternjaeger II]

Governments can control capitalism.

Governments can control just about everything. They have the power, whether they take it with despotic rule or acquire it by democratic vote.

It is incomprehensible to think that governments could be so uncaring about the potential of nuclear energy for eternal disaster.

dude, I'm afraid you kinda miss an adequate sense of perspective on the matter: when BP had the massive oil spillage happening on the US coast, they shelled out 21 billion dollars (!!!) without the blink of an eye.. you know how many countries' debts you could fix with that amount of money?!
Governments bow in front of these giants, allowing them to do what they want. That's the real issue, the true nature of capitalism is one where there's no rules nor control.. capitalism is wild and has no mercy, man..

[Ali Fish]

imo the capitalism you speak of isnt capitalism forthright. it is the basterdised version where the criminals have influence. By criminals i mean those reaping (or is that raping) to much from the economy and the people through the consideration of balance, balance of wealth that is.

i make no bones about saying true honest capitalism does work.

The equation for Growth is unsustainable with our present notion of capitalism, Of which this is.

[Sternjaeger II]

imo the capitalism you speak of isnt capitalism forthright. it is the basterdised version where the criminals have influence. By criminals i mean those reaping (or is that raping) to much from the economy and the people through the consideration of balance, balance of wealth that is.

i make no bones about saying true honest capitalism does work.

The equation for Growth is unsustainable with our present notion of capitalism, Of which this is.

I see what you mean, but frankly I've never regarded capitalism as "honest".. I mean yes, if we look at it and treat it like dogma, yes, but human nature gets in the way, turning it into probably the vilest form of exploitation of the weaker.

[nearmiss]

Again government can control capitalism. Government has the power in the country it controls. Capitalism is not government and only has abilities for whatever it does as allowed by governments.

The media and all the government persuasions for manipulating it's people point at concepts like capitalism and blame it. That is just a diversion, government is the power. Doesn't matter what you call it capitalism, fascism, etc. Just words... government is the power.:cool:

[Pudfark]

Seems like the solution is for everybody to camp out under the bridge while sharing a candle and howling at the moon....

Really, nearmiss...what viable, alternative energy is affordable/available in Japan?

My answer to that question is None.

[nearmiss]

dude, I'm afraid you kinda miss an adequate sense of perspective on the matter: when BP had the massive oil spillage happening on the US coast, they shelled out 21 billion dollars (!!!) without the blink of an eye.. you know how many countries' debts you could fix with that amount of money?!


Who says any country should pay just debts of another country. Who derived the benefits from the debt, who made the debt. The indebted country should be responsible for it's own debts.



Governments bow in front of these giants, allowing them to do what they want. That's the real issue, the true nature of capitalism is one where there's no rules nor control.. capitalism is wild and has no mercy, man..

Not true, government doesn't do anything it doesn't want to do. Capitalism is an ideology and there are as many variants of capitalism as breeds of dogs.

Capitalism isn't the problem. The problem is governments don't use their ability to stop abuses, or they wink at them. The media and the governments will point at capitalism, fascism, etc. as the problem. Governments always take the back seat, but they are the movers and shakers that allow or inhibit ideologists of every sort.

The ideologists (environmentalists) don't want a Canadian pipeline into Texas refineries. Government is going along with the ideologists and the Canadians may end up building a pipeline to western Canada and selling the oil to the Chinese.

The ideology isn't the problem unless government doesn't do it's job in restraining it.

No question ideologists influence governments, but government can make it's own choices regardless of the influence. Government has the power to do it's own will.

[nearmiss]

Seems like the solution is for everybody to camp out under the bridge while sharing a candle and howling at the moon....

Really, nearmiss...what viable, alternative energy is affordable/available in Japan?

My answer to that question is None.

I wouldn't argue on this, but I do say when your country doesn't have enough of something people can become very resourceful.

The profit motives of free markets will always bring something of value that will work. Too much government intervention can inhibit free markets, but the Japanese have been very successful with their government and free markets for the past 60 years.

We do have a problem in the world today. So many countries think they have to have nuclear to be current. Maybe it's rivalry, who knows all the motivations. Whatever the cause, the Japanese are paying a dear price.

Nuclear energy is an eternal problem for a short term solution. That makes no sense, unless you just don't care.

My understanding is America has no government energy policy.

In one of the videos the speaker infers American nuclear power facilities in many locations could be affected by a disaster just as Japan.

[Pudfark]

Well...mathematically speaking......

There are to many cats.....in the cat box.....

The solution to that?
Is imponderable.

So back to CloD and lawyer abuse....;)

[Ali Fish]

whilst my comments may indicate an offtopic remark of which i wont make. i would like to encourage those interested in the combined problem where the energy crysis is directly related to the current economic crysis.

for those interested, please do watch! its just another angle of intrinsic values and events that are related.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WBiTnBwSWc

[Les]

One alternative?

http://pesn.com/2011/12/15/9601980_E-Cat_Weekly_December_15/

And another?

http://www.overunity.com/8503/ultrasonic-piezonuclear-reactions/

[RedToo]

Worth investing in?

http://www.flixxy.com/the-future-of-energy-is-here.htm

RedToo.

[Ali Fish]

major alarm bells ringing !

will rossi get the nobel prize ? all i gota say is PROVE IT dude !

[onchas]

Atm we have exactly ZERO alternatives to NPPs.

That doesn't excuse the choice of Light Water Reactors (the predominant uranium reactors used in the world; sometimes called "solid fuel reactors") over Molten Salt Reactors (Thorium Reactor; sometimes called "liquid fuel reactors").

http://www.wired.com/magazine/tag/thorium/

[Sternjaeger II]

The whole thing with Rossi is a bit of a clever loophole: if his claims are real,the discovery could change the face of modern economy. Frankly I'm really curious to see what's gonna happen with it: if the man disappears one day it'd be the evidence it works...

Frankly though I'd put all of the economic matters aside and make a donation to humanity: here's the solution to our energy problems, but then again I'm not
him..

[Sternjaeger II]

That doesn't excuse the choice of Light Water Reactors (the predominant uranium reactors used in the world; sometimes called "solid fuel reactors") over Molten Salt Reactors (Thorium Reactor; sometimes called "liquid fuel reactors").

http://www.wired.com/magazine/tag/thorium/

That's capitalism getting in the way again..

[nearmiss]

That's capitalism getting in the way again..

You really need to get off the anti-capitalism thing, because it's just ideology. You need to think outside the box and not embrace what you have been led to believe. Think critically and objectively.

The problem is governments allow, prohibit, restrict, etc. Government has all the power. Yes governments fail to take action often, yet they aren't weak, and yes they are often compromised by ism influences. You don't have to think too much to realize government is the root cause of enabling and inhibiting all isms.

The government wants you to blame an ism, because it leverages their power even more as people are distracted from the real causes.

Who controls military? government
Who controls taxation?government
Who controls judicial systems? government
Who controls monetary systems?government
Who controls entitlement systems?government
Who controls voting process?government
etc.,etc.

Just like the executioners axe... He distracts the victim to look away, swings his axe and off goes the victims head.

Capitalism is easy. Everyone knows they want to make profit and increase shareholder equity. That's it, and it's obvious as the nose on your face. Yes capitalist want to achieve their goals, but government has the power to make things go as they should for the will of their constituency. Government can make laws and enforce them against contrary performances of capitalists, a simple fact and all governments know it. Governments make the choices and often do not favor their countrymen.

[swiss]

The problem by renewable energy is not the production of it or its mainenance. The problem is that you have to storage it for the time, when their is no wind or sun shining.

But even for that their are solutions (http://www.poppware.de/Links_und_Downloads/Pdf_Ringwall_BWK200012053058.pdf), you have only to convice the citizens(worst job ever).

You'd have to be able to store Energy for 45-60 days for whole Europe.
Have fun convincing Norway to flood its country...


I agree, becoming more efficient in regards to energy waste is a big part of the equation. That also means lots of people having to get rid of their convinience in their daily lives, but pressing a button or shutting down the light can't be such a huge sacrifice.

Funny you mention that.
The replacement of my old Sony TV with a LG Plama(0.5W stby) plus a better PC added a mere 1500kWhrs to my bill, that's a 40% raise.
Sure, we could save energy in some places, but overall our consumption will increase, a lot.

[Ali Fish]

speaking of energy consumption and mass market gaming heres a trivial little fact,

if your a console user lets say xbox 360, by buying a brand new xbox slim, it pays for itself in energy consumption compared to the previous models. youd be silly not to if you were a 360 user.

lol go green buy yet another xbox model !

[Bewolf]

Funny you mention that.
The replacement of my old Sony TV with a LG Plama(0.5W stby) plus a better PC added a mere 1500kWhrs to my bill, that's a 40% raise.
Sure, we could save energy in some places, but overall our consumption will increase, a lot.

True in some regards, but omitting some other developments. Washing machines, freezers, cars and lots of other stuff have dropped in consumption and increased in efficiency quite considerable over the last 10 years. And back to computer tech, current developments there also go for increased effiencies. Media applications aside, I do not see much danger in increased energy requirements from what we are at, to the opposite, there still is a huge potential for a decrease.

Btw, 1500kWhrs is huge, even if taking the larger consumption of Plasmas over regular TVs into account. So either you got yourself ripped off or you are running those things through unholy times. =)
At least such figures do not apply to your 08/15 folks.

[swiss]

speaking of energy consumption and mass market gaming heres a trivial little fact,

if your a console user lets say xbox 360, by buying a brand new xbox slim, it pays for itself in energy consumption compared to the previous models. youd be silly not to if you were a 360 user.

lol go green buy yet another xbox model !

I'd love to see this calculation.

[csThor]

The Germans shutting off their Nuclear reactors? Great..so one day when Russia decides they need to pay more for natural gas/electricity and they don't like the price, the Russians can shut it off during the winter just like they did in the Ukraine a few years ago, that ought to work out well.

Given the fact that in the course of the last forty years any gains made by nuclear power in Germany were privatized while any costs (for security, for exploring potential nuclear waste depots etc) were socialized I really prefer to deal with the russians for their gas than feed this festering pit of "old boy connections" any further. As Bewolf said - even in the darker times of the Cold War the Russians were reliable business partners when it came to purchasing and delivering gas.

[Ali Fish]

I'd love to see this calculation.

well its out there, in basic terms the slim uses 50% that the original models did.

[swiss]

Ok, found it.
Thats $300 and best case 70Watt in power savings.
@$.25/1kWh, $300 equals 1200kWh.
1200kwhr/70w=120000/7=17'150hrs of use at 100% load.
So you only have to play 2years 24/7 to amortize it, lol.

The energy used it production is not included.

[el0375]

[ to post on previous pages
About BP spill, i knew a person with a very interesting project to recover the petrol/gas/solid from the well( aside from many details, even for me the idea seemed very promising) but his superiors 'stopped' him because ''BP has paid already a lot in this matter''... ]

In general i think that EU is in quite bad position if things turn bad, energetically speaking. I don't know if really that accurate, but i seen data that we have to import 55% and increasing of our total energy needs. If something happens ( e.g. supplies from biggest energy exporter to EU) our lives most probably will change ( good or bad? )
Surely there is need for decreasing consuption, increase production of energy within EU, increase renewables ( for solar, its energy production around 2008 has doubled, still covering only 2% of total energy in EU.) Diversification might help too as we wont rely by only one exporter. Fuel switching too for not depending only by one source of energy. however it isnt really clear what the economic costs are or if its really feasible.
20-20-20 was something good on paper, but few countries made and are making really progress, especially in current times that they face ''more important problems''.

About all this, i am not positive because i see not much progress in this complicated system( kinda i am hoping for the best but expecting the worst). Especially is 'very promising' :rolleyes: that in the later climatic talks we still postponed action for 2015 or 2020, especially if we consider we are already 20 + years since talks have started ( but institutions are always positive :rolleyes: )
Sorry for my probable mistakes in English