WW2 British bomb found in Koblenz causes 45000 people evacuation

[Sternjaeger II]

...the biggest since WW2!

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20111130-39193.html

probably a 4000 lbs cookie, apparently the Rhine is giving back a lot of these bad boys lately!

[Ze-Jamz]

A 1 mile blast radius? Really?

[Sternjaeger II]

oh yes, 4000 lbs ain't no lightweight, it's the same weight of an average car.

I'm sure you've seen this before, and this is "just" an SC500 bomb
http://howbigreally.com/dimension/worldwar2/german_sc500_bomb_blast#mk12_5hn

[TomcatViP]

One step frwd in understanding what means "carpet bombing" ;)

[drewpee]

Still a threat after all this time,wow. Do you now if there has been any cases of ww2 ordnance actually going off? I know land mines are still a problem in some parts of the world but most of those are quite modern aren't they?

[Sternjaeger II]

Still a threat after all this time,wow. Do you now if there has been any cases of ww2 ordnance actually going off? I know land mines are still a problem in some parts of the world but most of those are quite modern aren't they?

there are many cases of unexploded ordnance being found in Europe after WW2, from small stuff to bigger ones. The main issue is that explosives tend to become unstable with time and humidity, hence the extreme care in these cases. Unfortunately there have been accidents where things went wrong, since neutralising these threats is not an easy task.

My brother is an archaeologist, he knows of my interest for WW1 and WW2 and called me on a couple of occasions asking me if I could help him identifying some suspect items his team stumbled upon whilst digging in the countryside near Anzio: whenever they go check on freshly ploughed fields there's SO much stuff coming up! Once they saw a little wooden box half buried, with what seemed like a fuse sticking out, he took a pic of it and texted it to me, I called him and said "stay well off that!! It's not a wooden box, it's a mine!!". I sent him the same day via express courier a manual with pics of the most commonly found landmines and ordnance of WW2, which he now keeps with himself all the time.
In a month they found two Schu-minen 42, 5 Teller and loads of ammunition in 40 acres of land!!

an interesting read on the topic can be found here

http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/4.2/features/ww2/ww2.htm

[JG52Uther]

Its scary to think of all the unexploded munitions lying around. I saw a programme about a French bomb dispoal team a while ago, and I think they said they had enough work to last the next several hundred years!

[Sternjaeger II]

Its scary to think of all the unexploded munitions lying around. I saw a programme about a French bomb dispoal team a while ago, and I think they said they had enough work to last the next several hundred years!

I know, it's madness, and unfortunately there's not much that can be done.
When I was still in Italy I remember they found a 1000lb US bomb on the station I used to take my train to uni every day: the bomb was literally 10 metres under the platform I used to walk back and forth on everyday waiting for my train (!!!).

[Sternjaeger II]

A 1 mile blast radius? Really?

btw, "blast radius" doesn't mean that everything within a mile will be destroyed! That's the theoretical reachout of splinters and shockwave, but obstacles like building or terrain will deflect/modify it.

[Artist]

The "total destruction" radius is - afaik - about 100m, at 1800m glass windows will still be broken. The rule by thumb is, when the defuse a bomb, 1m for every kg, so they evacuate 1800m for the 1800kg of that bomb.

The special situation in Koblenz is that the bomb is in the river - and the slopes of the river valley are all covered with houses right to the tops. Therefore the bomb is figuratively in the center of a funnel, so no "obstacles like building or terrain [that] will deflect/modify it".

I've seen it last Saturday from a balcony right above it - being there on a visit. The probability is *really* low, but still they are *really* nervous...

[Skoshi Tiger]

Pft! big girly wusses!

They should just take a leaf out of New Guinea's book and install safety buckets on the fuses!


http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/Skoshi_Tiger/Flight%20Sim/Kokoda284.jpg


Cheers!

BTW The bomb is a 500lb US bomb, from the crash site of B-25 Mitchell "The Happy Ledgend" (41-12907) that crashed due to entering a cloud near Myola on the Kokoda Track (5th December 1942). All crew were lost.

[Sternjaeger II]

LOL that'll fix it :mrgreen:

[BPickles]

The "total destruction" radius is - afaik - about 100m, at 1800m glass windows will still be broken

More like total physical destruction is about 30 to 60m radius caused by the physical blast. The pressure wave on the other hand which is what really does the damage would be very destructive out to about 75 to 200m radius, ending with broken windows out about 400m etc (but that depends on acoustics) as my best guess-estimates go from my experiences.
In Iraq a strike was called in on the edge of the compound we were taking repeated fire from, but unfortunately it fell short and landed no more than about 400 - 500m out, it hurt everyone's chest a bit from the pressure but didnt damage anyone apart from a few popped ear drums, If i recall right that was a 500lb.

Around civilians they would put up a large safety area, 600m from a strike is considered dangerously close for military calls, double even triple it for civilian populates if they have to set up a cordon.

[fruitbat]

Bah, pity the Belgium farmer who's on top of this,

http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/messines.html

During the Battle of Messines ridge in 1917, 19 mines were exploded under the German frontline.

The resulting explosion was heard in London.

The least explosive used in one of the mines was 14,900 lbs, the most 95,600 lbs. The explosive used was Ammonal.

They averaged around a 200 foot crater, and i've stood in one, the Spanbroekmolen crater, and its big.

Alas 2 didn't go off. the war progressed and they were forgotten.

However, in a thunder storm in 1955 one of the remaining 2 decided to go bang, killing a cow that was unfortunate enough to be minding its own business in the area, the other is still out there waiting with the Ammonal deteriorating.......

Apparently its location has been pinpointed now,

http://www.1976design.com/blog/archive/2004/04/18/largest-unexploded-bomb/

Don't know about you, but I'd have a serious aversion to thunder storms living there......

[BPickles]

Incredible stuff, its hard to imagine that amount of munitions going up
These help though:

http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/pics/crater.gif

http://www.lochnagarcrater.org/AERIALVIEWJULY2009A.jpg

[JG53Frankyboy]

webcam in Koblenz
http://www.swr.de/nachrichten/rp/swr-webcam-in-koblenz/-/id=1682/nid=1682/did=8928270/1ketap7/index.html

[TomcatViP]

Bah, pity the Belgium farmer who's on top of this,

http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/messines.html

During the Battle of Messines ridge in 1917, 19 mines were exploded under the German frontline.

The resulting explosion was heard in London.

The least explosive used in one of the mines was 14,900 lbs, the most 95,600 lbs. The explosive used was Ammonal.

They averaged around a 200 foot crater, and i've stood in one, the Spanbroekmolen crater, and its big.

Alas 2 didn't go off. the war progressed and they were forgotten.

However, in a thunder storm in 1955 one of the remaining 2 decided to go bang, killing a cow that was unfortunate enough to be minding its own business in the area, the other is still out there waiting with the Ammonal deteriorating.......

Apparently its location has been pinpointed now,

http://www.1976design.com/blog/archive/2004/04/18/largest-unexploded-bomb/

Don't know about you, but I'd have a serious aversion to thunder storms living there......

Thx for sharing. Never heard abt !

[Kongo-Otto]

The Danger of unexploded WW2 Bombs is a daily risk.

23rd October 2006 at the Autobahn near Aschaffenburg, during Maintenance Works on the Autobahn a 250 lbs explods and kills one worker, four bypassing semitrailer trucks are damaged beyond repair.

http://polpix.sueddeutsche.com/polopoly_fs/1.658895.1273517359!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/536x536/image.jpg

Five Weeks after the explosion another 250 lbs Bomb was found just 200 meters away from the explosion site at the Autobahn A3:
http://www.mz-web.de/ks/images/mdsBild/1164274554089l.jpg

And there are still Thousands of them somewhere to be found, everywhere.
http://www.fr-online.de/image/view/4439610,2480563,highRes,maxh,480,maxw,480,Die+ents ch%25C3%25A4rfte+Bombe+%2528media_971191%2529.jpg

[Sternjaeger II]

Bah, pity the Belgium farmer who's on top of this,

http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/messines.html

During the Battle of Messines ridge in 1917, 19 mines were exploded under the German frontline.

The resulting explosion was heard in London.

The least explosive used in one of the mines was 14,900 lbs, the most 95,600 lbs. The explosive used was Ammonal.

They averaged around a 200 foot crater, and i've stood in one, the Spanbroekmolen crater, and its big.

Alas 2 didn't go off. the war progressed and they were forgotten.

However, in a thunder storm in 1955 one of the remaining 2 decided to go bang, killing a cow that was unfortunate enough to be minding its own business in the area, the other is still out there waiting with the Ammonal deteriorating.......

Apparently its location has been pinpointed now,

http://www.1976design.com/blog/archive/2004/04/18/largest-unexploded-bomb/

Don't know about you, but I'd have a serious aversion to thunder storms living there......

I knew about the supermines, didn't know there was still an unexploded one though! :shock:

[fruitbat]

Here's a youtube vid that shows some stills from the 1955 explosion,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxG12ZYm3Q8&feature=related

Here's a famous bit of footage of a similar type of mine going of the year before, on the first day of the battle of the Somme, at Hawthorn ridge,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8YfJmwY5Uo

There's a commonwealth war grave near the Spanbroekmolen crater in which several of the troops buried there were killed by falling debris after crawling out into no mans land to there jumping off points for the attack.

[Sternjaeger II]

Do they retroactively add that to the USAAF's casualty numbers?

now that's a tasteful comment :rolleyes:

[Kongo-Otto]

Do they retroactively add that to the USAAF's casualty numbers?

No why should they?
The more important question imho is why wasnt a proper search for unexploded Bombs performed by the Bavarian authorities?
Knowing that the Aera was heavily bombed and it also was scene of heavy ground battles lasting several days, between the (iirc) 45th US Inf Div and the Wehrmacht a proper analysis of the USAAF and RAF Aerial Pictures made after Bombing Raids would have easily prevented the explosion.
Those Aerial Pictures are available to german authorities since years.

btw, its not possible to say who dropped the Bomb, it also could have been a Bomb dropped by the RAF in the November 1944 Raid on Aschaffenburg.

[Sternjaeger II]

No why should they?
The more important question imho is why wasnt a proper search for unexploded Bombs performed by the Bavarian authorities?
Knowing that the Aera was heavily bombed and it also was scene of heavy ground battles lasting several days, between the (iirc) 45th US Inf Div and the Wehrmacht a proper analysis of the USAAF and RAF Aerial Pictures made after Bombing Raids would have easily prevented the explosion.
Those Aerial Pictures are available to german authorities since years.

btw, its not possible to say who dropped the Bomb, it also could have been a Bomb dropped by the RAF in the November 1944 Raid on Aschaffenburg.

It's virtually impossible man. Sometimes bombs get 15, 20 metres deep, there's no way of finding them. It's a sad testament of those dark years, but thinking about finding them all and neutralising them is too much of a prohibitive thing to do in terms of costs.

[Bewolf]

It's virtually impossible man. Sometimes bombs get 15, 20 metres deep, there's no way of finding them. It's a sad testament of those dark years, but thinking about finding them all and neutralising them is too much of a prohibitive thing to do in terms of costs.

That's indeed a problem. Ground in Germany and especially rivers are so full of metal that any focused search for bombs is an excercise in futility. You just have to go by what is obvious.

[TomcatViP]

Damn we can found oil mixed in sand at 1km beneath ground level. There isn't any good excuse not to find a metallic 250lb+ bomb (I am not talking abt hand grenades here ;) )

A small team, a mini-drone, a truck and hundreds of km² can be done in a day.

[Bewolf]

Damn we can found oil mixed in sand at 1km beneath ground level. There isn't any good excuse not to find a metallic 250lb+ bomb (I am not talking abt hand grenades here ;) )

A small team, a mini-drone, a truck and hundreds of km² can be done in a day.

Not if the ground is so cluttered with other kinds of metals that you have to stop every few meters to dig out a bike, a pot or all kinds of other stuff from 5 meters depths. It's not like those bombs are lying out in the open, usually they are only appearing when doing contruction work or in this case, when rivers are so low that their beds are readily accessible. They are also not in the vast wilderness of unihabitated lands but usually right in the middle of urban centers which you just cant shut down to get a search team do their work. The costs are simply not maintainable.

[Sternjaeger II]

yep, I think that what most fail to understand is the sheer size of the bombed areas in mainland Europe.

[Sven]

They have found a ton of ammunition some years ago beneath one railway close to where I live. Mostly German 88 rounds, grenades and rifle ammunition.
Not very dangerous but a lot of drama of course.

[TomcatViP]

Not if the ground is so cluttered with other kinds of metals that you have to stop every few meters to dig out a bike, a pot or all kinds of other stuff from 5 meters depths. It's not like those bombs are lying out in the open, usually they are only appearing when doing contruction work or in this case, when rivers are so low that their beds are readily accessible. They are also not in the vast wilderness of unihabitated lands but usually right in the middle of urban centers which you just cant shut down to get a search team do their work. The costs are simply not maintainable.

Ok Ok... overoptimistic mode was ON.

But still, this could work out of urban area. Hve a look at all the counter-IED work. And still they contains (for this very specific fact) few metal parts ;)

[Bewolf]

Ok Ok... overoptimistic mode was ON.

But still, this could work out of urban area. Hve a look at all the counter-IED work. And still they contains (for this very specific fact) few metal parts ;)

Well, the problem is not a lack of metal, but too much of it. If you go into the city with a metal detector you probably get a flatline beep because there is so much of it. Bombs just vanish in this clutter. To find those bombs you actually would have to dig up every square meter and check for yourself, that is what makes it so tedious and unviable. Remember, those bombs are located underground, when they came down they sometimes buried themselves a dozen meters into the earth. Believe me, if Germany had a realistic working method to get rid of those things this country already would have done that.

In the coming years lots of those bomb fuzes will reach the end of their lifetime, and then things will become really interesting.

[Sternjaeger II]

Yep. The only solution would be to use echo-scanners or similar sonars, so that you can get some sort of silhouette of what's below, but even in that way it might not be easy: think about the intricate pipework, subway and sewage systems of modern cities.

I'm also afraid about the instability of fuzes and explosives in general after 70+ years. The dramatic thing is that many cities have a lot of subterranean caves (natural or artificial) which could expand the shockwave in unexpected and really dangerous ways.

[Kongo-Otto]

It's virtually impossible man. Sometimes bombs get 15, 20 metres deep, there's no way of finding them. It's a sad testament of those dark years, but thinking about finding them all and neutralising them is too much of a prohibitive thing to do in terms of costs.

That's indeed a problem. Ground in Germany and especially rivers are so full of metal that any focused search for bombs is an excercise in futility. You just have to go by what is obvious.

Yes you have to go by what is obvious, therefore the Aerial Photos supplied by the USA and the UK are an important factor for searching unexploded Bombs.
Otherwise in every Major Town namely Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Augsburg and of Course the Ruhrgebiet and many more, when ever you dig a hole a search has to be Performed specially in those Areas where Ground Combat also took place.
I did some research, why there wasnt a search performed at the A3, there was a Search performed in 1955(!) and therefore a new search was considered as waste of time(!)
I call such behavior a criminal act caused by laziness along with stupidity!
I see it here in Augsburg from first hand, every time when they tear down a building and build a new one or build a new one on vacant land, a search is performed.

Before i came to Augsburg i lived in Wolfratshausen a tiny City with 17000 People south of Munich, even there they found a few unexploded 500 lbs, cause sometimes when the Target couldnt be reached due to battle damage the Bombers dumped their payload right there where they flew.

But there is a much bigger danger not on Land but in the North Sea, the Allies sunk Ships with Tousands of tons german Ammo after the war, including Yperite (aka Mustard Gas), Sarin and Tabun Gas Grenades and Bombs, this is an imminent Danger to all Nations around the North Sea specially Denmark, Norway, the UK's East Coast and Germany.

[fruitbat]

There's a liberty ship that sank off the coast of Sheerness, can see it at low tide.

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/images/sswreckclhd1.jpg

Navy divers won't go near, its to unstable, some say sooner or later it will go bang, probably taking most of Sheerness and the Isle of Sheppy with it, some say it won't, who knows.

On board,

13,064 general purpose 250lb bombs
9,022 cases of fragmenting bombs
7,739 semi-armour piercing bombs
1,522 cases of fuses
1,429 cases of phosphorous bombs
1,427 cases of 100lb demolition bombs
817 cases of small arms ammunition

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/images/swalemontgomery.htm

Arguably, if you've ever been to the isle of Sheppy (the isle of 6 toes) this can be viewed with a positive spin.

[Bewolf]

There's a liberty ship that sank off the coast of Sheerness, can see it at low tide.

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/images/sswreckclhd1.jpg

Navy divers won't go near, its to unstable, some say sooner or later it will go bang, probably taking most of Sheerness and the Isle of Sheppy with it, some say it won't, who knows.

On board,

13,064 general purpose 250lb bombs
9,022 cases of fragmenting bombs
7,739 semi-armour piercing bombs
1,522 cases of fuses
1,429 cases of phosphorous bombs
1,427 cases of 100lb demolition bombs
817 cases of small arms ammunition

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/images/swalemontgomery.htm

Arguably, if you've ever been to the isle of Sheppy (the isle of 6 toes) this can be viewed with a positive spin.

Doesn't even need to explode to be highly dangerous, when the casings erode and all the bad stuff goes out into the environment. But if there is a real danger of exploding the government will have to take action, everything else would be crass irresponsible.

That aside, I understand the need to get rid of all the ammo after WW2, but the kind of action taken reminds me of todays nuclear waste and other environmental harm, not a problem today, lets those in the future sort it out.

[Sternjaeger II]

yep, it seems to be in a very critical area

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=SS++Richard+Montgomery&hl=en&ll=51.453472,0.769386&spn=0.107185,0.260067&sll=51.417422,0.653236&sspn=0.013409,0.032508&vpsrc=6&hq=SS++Richard+Montgomery&t=h&z=13

I don't think there's a safe way to operate in the area, since there's no accurate mapping of the load and the conditions (water pollution, streams, conditions of explosives) would make it into a suicide mission..

I think that it's better left as it is, but I agree, if that set off, it would probably change the coastline! :shock:

[Al Schlageter]

Watch the program 'Trashopolis - Berlin'. Berlin has an active bomb finding crew which uses old after mission bomb photos and hand held ground scanners.

Back in May,

WWII bomb discovery causes massive evacuation in Berlin
http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110526-35281.html

[csThor]

Every german federal state has a dedicated service to find, remove and get rid of unexploded bombs and any kind of other WW2 weapons junk. I guess it's one of the most crisis-proof jobs available ... There's so much to be done that the federal state of Brandenburg alone estimates it will take another six to seven generations to remove most of it.

[Kongo-Otto]

Watch the program 'Trashopolis - Berlin'. Berlin has an active bomb finding crew which uses old after mission bomb photos and hand held ground scanners.

Back in May,

WWII bomb discovery causes massive evacuation in Berlin
http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110526-35281.html

Interesting thanks for posting.
Every German State has them, its called Kampfmittelräumdienst (iirc its called Bomb disposal unit in english) it belongs to the German Police force, also there are private Companies in Bavaria which are on the behalf of the Bavarian Government and in Hamburg the Bomb disposal unit is part of the Fire department.

Here is a news article from Oktober 2011, which states that 117 unexploded WW2 Devices which includes Bombs and other kinds of ammo where found in Bavaria alone in 2010. Total weight of them was about 50 tons.
Bavaria spends 700.000 Euro per Year only for Bomb Disposal.
It says further that 117 Unexploded WW2 devices found means almost every third day something is found.
http://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/bayern/Muenchen-117-Bomben-Blindgaenger-entdeckt-id17023476.html

June 2010: Explosion of 500lbs kills thre member of Bomb disposal crew:
http://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/panorama/65-Jahre-nach-Kriegsende-toeten-Blindgaenger-immer-noch-id7928386.html

[Kongo-Otto]

There's a liberty ship that sank off the coast of Sheerness, can see it at low tide.

Navy divers won't go near, its to unstable, some say sooner or later it will go bang, probably taking most of Sheerness and the Isle of Sheppy with it, some say it won't, who knows.

On board,

13,064 general purpose 250lb bombs
9,022 cases of fragmenting bombs
7,739 semi-armour piercing bombs
1,522 cases of fuses
1,429 cases of phosphorous bombs
1,427 cases of 100lb demolition bombs
817 cases of small arms ammunition

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/images/swalemontgomery.htm

Arguably, if you've ever been to the isle of Sheppy (the isle of 6 toes) this can be viewed with a positive spin.

Ok if this was a Ammo Transport ship which i assume then the Bombs are not equipped with fuzes, so there is a little risk for an explosion, but there is an imminent risk for the enviroment if those stuff contaminates the water.

May i ask how the ship was sunk?
Accident, air raid or U-Boot?

[csThor]

I for one wouldn't want to do that job - not for all the money in the world. I once helped a friend of our family dig out the fundaments of the house he'd bought and while digging I suddenly came face-to-detonator with an unexploded 120mm mortar round of german make. We had to call the Kampfmittelräumdienst and they dug out another mortar round, some decayed remnants of infantry weapons and ammunition, a few hand grenades and a Panzerfaust. Quite a sobering experience ...

[JMB]

Here are a couple of links to the RAF Fauld bomb dump explosion of 1944.

Wikipedia Link to Fauld Explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Fauld_explosion)

Tutbury History Site (http://www.tutburyhistory.co.uk/fauld.html)

Contemporary Aerial View of Fauld Crater (http://www.monkton-farleigh.co.uk/Fauld.htm)

The moral of the story being don't tinker with bombs using incorrect tools. I'm guessing that much of the ordnance stored here wasn't fused, yet it still exploded after the incident with the initial fused bomb. Could this occur with the ordnance on the Sheerness Liberty Ship? An initial explosion (by whatever means - chemical degradation, lightning strike, diving activity etc) triggering the rest of the cargo.

JMB

[fruitbat]

Ok if this was a Ammo Transport ship which i assume then the Bombs are not equipped with fuzes, so there is a little risk for an explosion, but there is an imminent risk for the enviroment if those stuff contaminates the water.

May i ask how the ship was sunk?
Accident, air raid or U-Boot?

Accident,


Having crossed the Atlantic Ocean with the probability of attack by u-boat, she arrived in the Thames estuary on route to her final destination of Cherbourg. During the night of 20th August 1944 she swung around at her moorings and run aground on the Sheerness middle sand. Her plates quickly began to crack and buckle and her remaining crew abandoned ship.

[Kongo-Otto]

Accident,


Thanks for your answer.

I hope this takes a good end and not like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Explosion