sound radar is back ... naaaaaaah!

[Insuber]

The crazy sound radar ruins all of the sneak attacks... I suffered this issue several times in ATAG, approaching an enemy plane from 6 o'clock low, in the blind spot. They hear you from > 300 m.
it wasn't present before last patch iirc.

Devs do something !

[CaptainDoggles]

I'm not convinced this is a problem.

I normally throttle back when I get close anyways, but even when I don't I'm not experiencing an epidemic of sound-radar. You make it sound like it's completely impossible to sneak up on anyone when this is in fact not true.

[l3uLLDoZeR]

I fly with the canopy open in the hurricane. I think you should be able to hear to some extent. I have no idea how much I should be able to hear, do u fly around in open cockpit biplanes or something that you know what it sounds like?

[CaptainDoggles]

I fly with the canopy open in the hurricane. I think you should be able to hear to some extent. I have no idea how much I should be able to hear, do u fly around in open cockpit biplanes or something that you know what it sounds like?

Well, flying in a closed-cockpit Cessna is so loud that you need to wear headphones just to communicate.

That's a 175-hp turboprop. I imagine a World-war era 1000-hp+ fighter would be significantly louder.

[speculum jockey]

WWII pilots have said in multiple interviews that you can't hear anything happening outside of your cockpit. Even with an open cockpit you're not going to hear anything because your engine appears to you, to be that much louder. The first clue that someone was firing at a pilot was when tracers were flying past their cockpit or rounds were impacting against their aircraft.

[reflected]

I agree, you shouldn't hear anything. Then again, I've never heard another aircraft from my cockpit in CloD. I don't think this problem exists.

[CWMV]

I noticed it tonight big-time. I knew a 109 was jumping me before my wing saw him because I heard the guy a mile away.

My own guns? Sure, I should hear them.
A 109 on my 6 high 500 meters out with a 1000 ft alt advantage? Probably not.
I dont notice it so much when I normally fly blue. Merlin's are quiet compared to the DB.

[KeBrAnTo]

I agree, you shouldn't hear anything. Then again, I've never heard another aircraft from my cockpit in CloD. I don't think this problem exists.

Neither I did, not sure about the first statement either.

[KeBrAnTo]

I noticed it tonight big-time. I knew a 109 was jumping me before my wing saw him because I heard the guy a mile away.

My own guns? Sure, I should hear them.
A 109 on my 6 high 500 meters out with a 1000 ft alt advantage? Probably not.
I dont notice it so much when I normally fly blue. Merlin's are quiet compared to the DB.

+1

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I agree, you shouldn't hear anything. Then again, I've never heard another aircraft from my cockpit in CloD. I don't think this problem exists.

Well, for a lot of ppl this problem exists. I can hear aircrafts around me very neatly and so do others. If you do not hear it then either it is your soundcard or some specific settings I think.

EDIT: This sound radar is btw here since the very start of Clod but perhaps it got worse with the new sounds (which improved sound wise though)

[6S.Manu]

Where's the problem, Insu?

People here are happy: they claim CloD as the most realistic WW2 simulator ever...

During SoW development I asked about this problem pratically every time Oleg was posting an update on the board. Now, knowing the substance of those updates and the final release state of CloD (lol) I understand why they never answered to my two questions... (the other one was about target visibility)

Anyway yesterday I've uninstalled both CloD and RO2.

Simply I can't enjoy passing hours fighting over my airbase bnzing the countless Spitfires who fly over the channel at 500m in a voulching/suicide mission (because there is not profit in gaining altitude over the channel, at least for me).

I wish I could enjoy it, to minimize the other deficiencies of this "sim", but I really can't.

So I'm not going to pay attention to the board like i did before: I can stand no more Tagert-like clowns or the endless "Please! New flyable airplane!" threads posting.

I don't think I'll contribute to my own "Target visibility" thread too, since many people here are satisfied hunting dots. I was going to post a video about a possible solution, but who cares?

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

BTW I guess this is the principle reason why one now sees a lot of red pilots flying with hood open. To hear better. This is completely *****. First the canopy open should increase drag and slow the plane. Second it should not improve sound radar. Instead sound radar should be removed entirely.

I do not see why it should be difficult to remove sound radar.

You just need a status evaluation of the player's engine such as:

if engine stopped then
>allow environment sounds
else if engine running then
>don't use sound samples of other objects than that of the player's game
end if

[Insuber]

I noticed it tonight big-time. I knew a 109 was jumping me before my wing saw him because I heard the guy a mile away.

My own guns? Sure, I should hear them.
A 109 on my 6 high 500 meters out with a 1000 ft alt advantage? Probably not.
I dont notice it so much when I normally fly blue. Merlin's are quiet compared to the DB.


So, it was you that I tried to jump on ATAG yesterday night, and turned when I was 400 m far sneaking on your 6 o'clock low? :D :D

[Skoshi Tiger]

It's not just a case of a simple if then else statement in the code.

You should be able to hear noises that are completely different to the sound of your engines if it's got a significantly higher or lower frequency to the sound your own engine is making.

Point in case, when I drive my Charger (which is extremely loud) I can't hear the GTHO driving next to me, but I can hear the Harley Davidson with shotgun pipes a two hundred yards away only because it is completely different to the noise my own engine is making.

Notice with the sound Radar you can't actually hear the engine noise of the 109 on your tail you can only hear the turbo whine.

Whether or not this is over done is another matter and would require a very detailed look at the sound engine. I assume everyone wants COD to be as realistic as possible.

To do that the sound engine needs to be examined and adjusted by the developers to work realistically otherwise it'll turn into a big pile of single case cludges that needs to be 'fixed' every time a new plane is added.

I've been tiped off that theres a 109 on my six from the turbo noise a number of times. Generally when it's almost too late to react .

I have more luck following the "don't fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area rule". I generally pick up an E/A on my tail after performing a violent break to see whats behind me.

Cheers!

[TomcatViP]

Tiger,

Charger : 7 at max with long exhaust pipe, silenter etc...
Merlin 27L with direct exhaust system (read : no exhaust system ;))

27/7 = 4 approx

Just imagine how noisy it can be !

Sound radar is a real immersion killer. Checking 6 is on the contrary a very basic needs of every fighter pilot.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I disagree Skoshi.

I do not want to go into physics and btw physics won't explain all as we would also have to look into how the brain processes the input from the ears and also we would need to understand how the ear works.

Fact is that there are piles of evidence from pilots' narations, pilots that actually have flown combat missions, which are all clear in one point: they could not hear other planes.

I cannot understand why people continue to reject first hand accounts in order to preserve some sort of sound radar and present sound radar as realistic.

[Qpassa]

In Clod I can hear planes with engine on and flying, should be fixed

[Skoshi Tiger]

I disagree Skoshi.

I do not want to go into physics and btw physics won't explain all as we would also have to look into how the brain processes the input from the ears and also we would need to understand how the ear works.

Fact is that there are piles of evidence from pilots' narations, pilots that actually have flown combat missions, which are all clear in one point: they could not hear other planes.

I cannot understand why people continue to reject first hand accounts in order to preserve some sort of sound radar and present sound radar as realistic.

Not sure if it's a case of dissregarding first hand accounts, but without looking at the individual accounts we'll never know what conditions it occured under.

If your in your tiger moth with a 140HP motor idling away as you decend on short finals and a 109 with a 1000HP at full throttle comes diving down on you, when would you be able to hear it?

Between that and a Spitfire is a whole range of different aircraft, motors, situations that will effect whether you could hear the outside noise or not.

I guess my point is if they put in a blanket ban on hearing out side noises, it would be just as unrealistic as it is now, but if they put the effort in making the sound engine model the appropriate rules closely enough then it should approximate what we should in reality which is all that anyone really want's

A few other threads have been telling us how few CPU cycles COD is using so there should be no effect on our performance if they do a few extra caclulations for sound?

Cheers!

[klem]

I agree, you shouldn't hear anything. Then again, I've never heard another aircraft from my cockpit in CloD. I don't think this problem exists.

It exists.

In my Hurricane I hear all other aircraft to some degree, more with the cockpit open. I often hear a sneaky 109 before I see it. Comforting but not realistic.

[David198502]

I agree, you shouldn't hear anything. Then again, I've never heard another aircraft from my cockpit in CloD. I don't think this problem exists.

thats false...you can definitely hear other airplanes inside your own cockpit in clod...which shouldnt be the case(though i have to confess that it sounds nice)

maybe it should be optional in the difficulty settings...

another thing which i dont like is the fact that many fly with open canopy online.i would suspect that in real life not many pilots would fly with an open canopy, except for take offs and landings maybe.

[Skoshi Tiger]

.i would suspect that in real life not many pilots would fly with an open canopy, except for take offs and landings maybe.

And photo opportunities! ;)

http://www.militarymodeler.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Spitfire-MK-1600x1200.jpg

[Feathered_IV]

Switching on your reflector sight makes a click which is loud enough to be heard over a thousand horsepower engine. You can also hear bullets impact on a machine 100m ahead of you. While your airframe will scream louder than a T-rex, yet the wings will stay on.

[Gollum]

I agree with the fact that research must be done because a blanket would be unrealistic. For example, the japanese called the corsair "the whistleing death" for a reason. Meaning they must have heard the high frequency turbo or supercharger at some point in an ambush. I only fly the 109 on atag so havent paid attention to the loudness of the 109 engine or its sound profile. I have noticed spits breaking when i approach from 600 low right before i pull the trigger though. If all you hear is the turbo, maybe this is semi correct but just too loud? Maybe you would heara the high frequency tubo, but just not until the 109 is a lot closer??? Dont know, but the possabilities definately suggest research be done prior to a decission being made. I have a feeling the correct answer is somewhere similar as mentsioned by a few posters and as i described above. High or low frequencies not produced by ones own engine should probibly not be completely drowned out at extremely close distances. Then again, i could be wrong.

[reflected]

You can also hear bullets impact on a machine 100m ahead of you

Really? I always thought something hit me! :D
If that's so it needs a major overhaul.

[David198502]

And photo opportunities! ;)

http://www.militarymodeler.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Spitfire-MK-1600x1200.jpg

yes of course...i have also seen many photos where pilots fly with an open canopy....but i suspect that they travel pretty slow when the canopy is open..and pretty low as well.but certainly not during combat situations.

[reflected]

Indeed, because it gives you a lot of drag and...oh wait, that's not the case in CloD! :-P

BY the way, I've flown in a Tiger Moth, and I couldn't even hear what the pilot said on the intercom. Only some faint shhhh-kshhhhhhh.

Also, if you read any personal accounts it's unquestionably clear that you couldn't possibly hear another aircraft from yours. The sound is way too similar, and your engine is way too loud. Being warned about an attack by hearing his engine is something completely unheard of in real life. I have yet to find a singe account that contradicts this.

[Skoshi Tiger]

yes of course...i have also seen many photos where pilots fly with an open canopy....but i suspect that they travel pretty slow when the canopy is open..and pretty low as well.but certainly not during combat situations.

+1000

But you know that Spitfire pilots are complete show offs! You wouldn't see a self respecting 109 pilot flying with his canopy open! ;)

[jg27_mc]

I don't think I'll contribute to my own "Target visibility" thread too, since many people here are satisfied hunting dots. I was going to post a video about a possible solution, but who cares?

I care please do.

BTW I am also experiencing the radar effect when attacking (in a 109). In some rare occasions I could "feel" the presence of an enemy plane in my six.

Regards.

[speculum jockey]

For example, the japanese called the corsair "the whistleing death" for a reason. Meaning they must have heard the high frequency turbo or supercharger at some point in an ambush.

Japanese soldiers called it this because they would often get strafed or bombed by it and hear the whistling from the supercharger or around the oil cooler scoops when it dived and flew-by.

Japanese pilots called it. . . "Oh crap. . .AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH".

The only time it would be acceptable to hear another aircraft while in your cockpit would be if the enemy has run out of ammo and he's in the process of trying to chew your head off with his prop.

[Insuber]

I agree with the fact that research must be done because a blanket would be unrealistic. For example, the japanese called the corsair "the whistleing death" for a reason.

The reason was simple: ground attacks to troops.

[Winger]

I fly with the canopy open in the hurricane. I think you should be able to hear to some extent. I have no idea how much I should be able to hear, do u fly around in open cockpit biplanes or something that you know what it sounds like?

As long as it is possible to fly with open canopy without having serious performance hit by doing so its in my eyes to be considered as a cheat.

Fly with it open but if you do suffer from the energyloss it brings.

This needs to be adressed in my opinion. For both sides. Heck droping the 109s canopy doesnt even have ANY negative sideeffects. That shitty. However its one of the samaller issues i consider as "not so urgent to fix".

Winger

[ATAG_Septic]

As long as it is possible to fly with open canopy without having serious performance hit by doing so its in my eyes to be considered as a cheat.

Fly with it open but if you do suffer from the energyloss it brings.

This needs to be adressed in my opinion. For both sides. Heck droping the 109s canopy doesnt even have ANY negative sideeffects. That shitty. However its one of the samaller issues i consider as "not so urgent to fix".

Winger

I agree Winger. I can't bring myself to fly with the canopy open, it's just so unrealistic and the wind noise is a nuisance. I will open it if I fear I may need to bail for instance.

[klem]

Switching on your reflector sight makes a click which is loud enough to be heard over a thousand horsepower engine. You can also hear bullets impact on a machine 100m ahead of you. While your airframe will scream louder than a T-rex, yet the wings will stay on.

+1

Curiously, I never hear the impact of bullets on my own airframe.

Anyone else?

[TomcatViP]

Sry boys but it's not the supercharger sound that give the Corsair its nickname.

Vought worked hard with Hamilton to fit the Huge PW with a low speed prop. The idea was to get a higher Mach at alt for the airplane in a very clean configuration despite (very relatively) the radial engine

The side effect was that in a high speed dive, the prop tips reached the speed of sound with the typical whine as a result.

Regarding the pic Tiger posted : how many Spit ace can tell me how that pilot cld enjoy the same rear view as we hve in CoD ? :rolleyes:

@Klem : I hear them more and more scarcely

[Gollum]

The reason was simple: ground attacks to troops.

Tuche'... If this is true I withdraw my statement and request the whines be too low to be heard when one runs their engine at full power. A blanket would still not work though because you would be able to hear other planes while running your engine at idle no? Or is the idle of the engine so loud that you still wouldn't be able to hear other planes diving on you?>

[winny]

Duno if this is helpful or not,

I've read hundreds (literally) of BoB era pilot's accounts. The only time they mention being able to hear enemy aircraft is when they were extremley close. It seems to happen more with head on attacks and almost always the pilot says something like "I was so close I could hear the engines" Geoff Wellum, Peter Townsend, one of the Dundas brothers (can't remember which one), Brian Lane and quite a few others.

Another similarity is that this happened as they broke underneath the enemy after a head on attack - a bit closer than they'd like 5-10 meters. I'll try and dig out some of the quotes, one of them was a mid air collision with a 109, the pilot said he heard the 109 just before they crashed.

I also recall one Spit pilot flying in cloud with his canopy open hearing a LW Bomber before he saw it, it was about 10 meters off his wing.

[6S.Manu]

Regarding the pic Tiger posted : how many Spit ace can tell me how that pilot cld enjoy the same rear view as we hve in CoD ? :rolleyes:

This is another thing I wanted to mod in 1946: a straps intensity simulation that influence the pilot's head movement.

So a pilot need to pass from a "cruise mode" to "combat mode": I know that P51 had a usefull level to tight/untight their straps in a second, while in other planes pilots need to do it manually.

No sound radar, no Reed Richards in the cockpit... maybe you can ambush an enemy plane without having to bnz at 600km/h but simply moving closer.

[Skoshi Tiger]

There seams to be an issue here! Some people say that they can hear the whine and some people say that they can't hear the whine.

Maybe it's not the actual aircaft thats making the noise!

Could it be something to do with the pilot?







[Skoshi Tiger - Hurried exit stage left] ;)

[Insuber]

Yes Tiger, when I dive on Hurricanes and Spits I use to whine loudly about the sound radar, that's what actually gives me away.

Seriously, it is one of the worst bugs IMHO.

Cheers,
Insuber

[PolishEagle1939]

The side effect was that in a high speed dive, the prop tips reached the speed of sound with the typical whine as a result.



I've read it was the oil coolers in the wing that made the sound. Do you have reference for this Tomcat? Not starting an argument just trying to gain knowledge. Thanks

[TomcatViP]

I hve read it quite a couple of time. Might be in a Vought or Corsair story or reading some F4U7 pilot memoir (that version saw extensive service with the French Navy postwar)

[PolishEagle1939]

Never read in any account thast it was the prop. I've always read it was the oil coolers. I know it makes the sound in level flight because I've heard it at Chino http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQxb-V-rZqA. Let me know if you can give me a specific book. Thanks

[Skoshi Tiger]

Yes Tiger, when I dive on Hurricanes and Spits I use to whine loudly about the sound radar, that's what actually gives me away.

Seriously, it is one of the worst bugs IMHO.

Cheers,
Insuber

A cheap attempt a humor by me! Sorry!



About the F4U - I've read about the oil coolers causing the noise.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Concerning the current use of open cockpit (I presume in order to increase the benefits of sound radar as it works right now in the game): Actually I think with open cockpit it should be even less possible to hear other planes than with closed cockpit (where it is already impossible to hear one). Opening the cockpit not only would create more drag but also would reduce the smooth surface of the plane and creating buffeting. Together with the now more audible wind sounds from normal wind buffeting will increase the wind noise to another level which should actually increase the sound level beyond that obtained by simply removing a sound shield.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Up until I got my monitor calibration correct I was using open cockpit to improve dot visibility. It was harder to see through the canopy.

Since the last patch the wind noise make it unplesant to fly with the cockpit open for any length of time, though you do get better range of head movement with it open.

Can't say I've noticed the whine of the 109 with the cockpit open since the patch, Will listen out for it tonight!

Cheers!

[klem]

I must admit I fly with the cockpit open because it gives a better rear view. I know its not realistic at high speed but its there and others will be using it, well on refllection not the 109 pilots! Johnny Johnson often wrote that he cleared his 6 by looking in his mirror and using 'coarse rudder' to swing the a/c left and right. Now if we had a decent mirror at decent resolution........ At the moment our ability to see a 109 on our 6 is too limited by the lack of a good mirror so I don't have any qualms about having the canopy open.

What's needed is a good mirror, then perhaps serious head buffet if beyond the limit of the canopy (or perhaps head restriction to cockpit-closed range?) above certain airspeeds. Say 150mph? Higher? It should be possible to open the cockpit and look around at lower speeds.

btw I have sat in a Spifire cockpit and it is possible to see about half of the tailplane by stretching the neck. Also there was a straps adjustment lever allowing the pilot more room to move (but you wouldn't in combat) and described here including a picture of a pilot with his head out of the cockpit but harness (loosely?) fastened:
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/the-sutton-harness-on-the-spitfire.html

The seat belts used on the Spitfire and other British aircraft of the era are often being referred to as the Sutton Harness.
The Sutton harness commonly used during the initial to mid-war period consisted of four straps about 2” wide that had a row of grommets spaced about 1and 1/2 ” apart.
The shoulder straps of the harness were attached at a single point to a transverse cable which was attached by brackets bolted to the ends of the fuselage longerons behind the pilot’s head/shoulders. The length of the cable provided a degree of shock absorption upon impact. Also, the wire could be slackened by means of a lever in the cockpit to permit the pilot to lean forwards.

[TomcatViP]

Never read in any account thast it was the prop. I've always read it was the oil coolers. I know it makes the sound in level flight because I've heard it at Chino http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQxb-V-rZqA. Let me know if you can give me a specific book. Thanks

I hve read nearly a thousand of aero books. 80% of wich are not with me at present time. Are you torturing me wih that request ? :grin:

Looking at your vid, you can hear the whispering once only the plane did pass in front the observer (the cameraman) and not before. This means tht the whine is affected by mach hence the most probable prop related effect (if the LE was mach effected all the wing would be ;) )

I will stand firm on that ;) (no ego related - just logics)

[TomcatViP]

I know its not realistic at high speed but its there and others will be using it


Aces likes you shld lead others with exemplary behavior.


Also, the wire could be slackened by means of a lever in the cockpit to permit the pilot to lean forwards.[/I]

I confirm. But essentially that was meant to protect yourself behind the armored front glass panel (the only one protected glass surface). Don't forget that the seating position in those fighters were pretty much the same as we use today in front of our computer. It's perfectly natural to lean frwd to aim or (if we had too !) look above your shlder. The only restriction being the volume available bellow the hood.

[Insuber]

A cheap attempt a humor by me! Sorry!



About the F4U - I've read about the oil coolers causing the noise.

Why sorry? I've laughed at it ... I just forgot a couple of smileys :D :D

[klem]

[QUOTE=TomcatViP;363599]Aces likes you shld lead others with exemplary behavior.

[QUOTE]


Ouch! :)

Give me a proper mirror and I will :D
Modify the canopy-open effect and I'll have to!

Seriously, I'm not looking for an advantage, I'm looking to offset the lack of the mirror which atm is a disadvantage. The IL-2 mirror wasn't great but I could at least yaw the aircraft and see if there was something behind me.

[klem]

I hve read nearly a thousand of aero books. 80% of wich are not with me at present time. Are you torturing me wih that request ? :grin:

Looking at your vid, you can hear the whispering once only the plane did pass in front the observer (the cameraman) and not before. This means tht the whine is affected by mach hence the most probable prop related effect (if the LE was mach effected all the wing would be ;) )

I will stand firm on that ;) (no ego related - just logics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair
The Japanese allegedly nicknamed it "Whistling Death", for the noise made by airflow through the wing root-mounted oil cooler air intakes.

The only sound I've heard from prop tips going through the sound barrier is on the Harvard/T6 which gives a kind of rasping effect.

(we must stop meeting like this!)

[PolishEagle1939]

I hve read nearly a thousand of aero books. 80% of wich are not with me at present time. Are you torturing me wih that request ? :grin:

Looking at your vid, you can hear the whispering once only the plane did pass in front the observer (the cameraman) and not before. This means tht the whine is affected by mach hence the most probable prop related effect (if the LE was mach effected all the wing would be ;) )

I will stand firm on that ;) (no ego related - just logics)

Or actually the sound comes out the back end of oil cooler and you dont hear it as much from the front. Also said you read it made the noise in a dive. In the video the plane is in level flight and making the noise so maybe the thing you read was referring to another noise. I'm sure we've read alot of the same books (big Corsair fan too) but just have never heard it said it was prop noise, always read the oil cooler made the noise as Wikipedia says.
Cheers

[EZ1]

I can hear other planes all around me at close range. I could hear them in 46 also. It saved my butt many times. It does seem a bit unrealistic considering how much noise those old engines produced.

[Hellbender]

I heard several times on ATAG TS 3 that people are using the Sound Radar constantly when they shouted, "I hear a 109 behind me".

For the moment, we have to live with that problem, but for the next patch, I´m confident that the devs are fixing that issue.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Strange.....there don't seem to be any Spit or Hurri pilots complaining -- and that's shameful! Getting shot down from behind seems a small price to pay for the sake of realism, IMHO.

[Osprey]

I was on stage on Saturday night for a sound check and I couldn't hear myself sing because the monitor was too low against my guitar amp, which was hurting my ears bad.

Did I help anything in this discussion?

[Osprey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair
The Japanese allegedly nicknamed it "Whistling Death", for the noise made by airflow through the wing root-mounted oil cooler air intakes.

The only sound I've heard from prop tips going through the sound barrier is on the Harvard/T6 which gives a kind of rasping effect.

(we must stop meeting like this!)


Having been at Duxford many times (as I'm sure many others have too) I have to say I don't think that the Corsair really whistles all that much on a high speed pass. The Bearcat on the other hand makes a distinctive whistle, I have a nice video of it somewhere.

[Robo.]

I was on stage on Saturday night for a sound check and I couldn't hear myself sing because the monitor was too low against my guitar amp, which was hurting my ears bad.

Did I help anything in this discussion?

Nice one pal :-P

As for the 'radar' - should be fixed. I am only able to hear an aircraft if they get close enough, in case it's a 109 on my six it's too late. I would say 50 meters in a Hurricane with open canopy. I am able to tell tha DB apart from a Merlin - didn't do anything with my sound settings. I think one could hear a plane in front of him (tight scissors and similar situations) but definitely not behind him.

As for open canopy on RAF - as someone remarked, you can hear better, but many including myself do that simply to get better view.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Nice one pal :-P

As for the 'radar' - should be fixed. I am only able to hear an aircraft if they get close enough, in case it's a 109 on my six it's too late. I would say 50 meters in a Hurricane with open canopy. I am able to tell tha DB apart from a Merlin - didn't do anything with my sound settings. I think one could hear a plane in front of him (tight scissors and similar situations) but definitely not behind him.

As for open canopy on RAF - as someone remarked, you can hear better, but many including myself do that simply to get better view.

which is no better than improving one's sound radar imho. You take profit from the lacks of the current engine that does not provide for additional drag or for additional buffeting sound with open cockpit.

[Robo.]

which is no better than improving one's sound radar imho. You take profit from the lacks of the current engine that does not provide for additional drag or for additional buffeting sound with open cockpit.

I don't take any advantage, I just fly my Hurricane the best I can. :o As I say, I don't mind (wouldn't mind as it's not there) the drag as 109 is still faster than me. I enjoy the visibility though (you can lean out a bit).

My post was more about yes I've got the radar and I don't like it.

[Upthair]

From an earlier thread:



Please one switch to disable external sounds.

Haha.

[klem]

The crazy sound radar ruins all of the sneak attacks... I suffered this issue several times in ATAG, approaching an enemy plane from 6 o'clock low, in the blind spot. They hear you from > 300 m.
it wasn't present before last patch iirc.

Devs do something !
http://www.quandulps.info/5.jpg
http://www.bingertoday.info/huang4.jpg
http://www.bingertoday.info/huang3.jpg

What's with all the advertising junk ??

[SKUD]

Folks
I have flown in the jump seat of a p-51 doing 300 knot canyon runs. The mic came unhooked momentarily and I can tell you the pilot was screaming with his face 8 inches from mine and all I could do was read his lips. You can't hear flaps or gear execpt a faint thump when it locks down. The sound in these things at speed is deafening. The pilot wore earplugs under his headset in his helmet. Given the sound levels and the fact that a WWII pilot would have a over-the-ear-headset on, the only indication you will get of enemy on your six is when his bullets (or cannon rounds) are filling your plane with holes. Also, the prop outline is more obvious and much bigger than what we have in this sim. Might be an FOV issue tho.
SKUD

[MB_Avro_UK]

Folks
I have flown in the jump seat of a p-51 doing 300 knot canyon runs. The mic came unhooked momentarily and I can tell you the pilot was screaming with his face 8 inches from mine and all I could do was read his lips. You can't hear flaps or gear execpt a faint thump when it locks down. The sound in these things at speed is deafening. The pilot wore earplugs under his headset in his helmet. Given the sound levels and the fact that a WWII pilot would have a over-the-ear-headset on, the only indication you will get of enemy on your six is when his bullets (or cannon rounds) are filling your plane with holes. Also, the prop outline is more obvious and much bigger than what we have in this sim. Might be an FOV issue tho.
SKUD

+1

First Hand Experience.

Thanks for posting. Nothing should be heard from outside.

[drewpee]

Sound recognition is a bit like eye sight, some people have more sensitive hearing with better ability to determine/separate differing frequencies. Many are tone deaf. I know in my house I can hear a car door closing out side 90% of the time when no one else can. Also my wife can't tell when a tune is off key.

This you-tube vid was posted elsewhere on forum and some couldn't hear when the AC is flying in formation. I had no such problem. The hole resonance changes when instead of 12 cylinders 24 are vibrating the air and airframe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--2H9Dj9eMY

[CWMV]

+1

First Hand Experience.

Thanks for posting. Nothing should be heard from outside.

not quite.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Sound recognition is a bit like eye sight, some people have more sensitive hearing with better ability to determine/separate differing frequencies. Many are tone deaf. I know in my house I can hear a car door closing out side 90% of the time when no one else can. Also my wife can't tell when a tune is off key.

This you-tube vid was posted elsewhere on forum and some couldn't hear when the AC is flying in formation. I had no such problem. The hole resonance changes when instead of 12 cylinders 24 are vibrating the air and airframe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--2H9Dj9eMY


So to you sound radar should be present because in real time one bloke in the whole luftwaffe or the raf might habe heard a plane when flying close?

All first hand accounts that I have read on this matter state that other planes could not be heard. This is a good indicator that the vast majority could hear nothing. I propose that we modell the environment after the most common pilot and not after some individuals with superpowers ...

[pupo162]

well i yuesterday i was flying with a friend, and had my sound down to aobut 10% . to the point i couldnt ear my own engine. but i could hear is from about 200 meters. nice

[drewpee]

So to you sound radar should be present because in real time one bloke in the whole luftwaffe or the raf might habe heard a plane when flying close?

All first hand accounts that I have read on this matter state that other planes could not be heard. This is a good indicator that the vast majority could hear nothing. I propose that we modell the environment after the most common pilot and not after some individuals with superpowers ...

No you read me wrong. I have no idea if you should hear another AC only that some people can hear things when others cannot.
My personal experience (with sound not ww2 AC)is working in a mineral sands processing plant. Wearing hearing protectors in deafening parts of the plant.You some times can't hear the bloke standing next to you but you can still hear other parts of the plant. A slipping v-belt,a front end loader going by or the PA system and sirens.

[drewpee]

Just a further thought, when driving at say 110kmh on the open road (in a sound proofed vehicle)I can't hear say a fast moving Harley Davidson until it passes(I usually warn my wife and kids of its approach). But if the same bike gets caught behind me and matches my speed then I can hear him. So maybe approach speed also needs to be taken into account?

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

At same speed there would be no approach.

Again, your audio apparently supersense is imho not necessarily a good basis for comparison :)

And then a car or a bike at 110 is barely comparible to a fighter plane that flies at much higher speeds and with much more hp ...

A plane engine is also not at the same frequency band and don't forget the bandwidth audible by the normal mortal human being is limited ...

[drewpee]

Obviously no point in a debate. :confused:

[TomcatViP]

Well to hve a debate you hve first to hear each other. Can you ? ;)

[drewpee]

For a team to succeed they must first learn everyone opinion is valuable and must be taken into account. To just flatly disagree and shut down other peoples suggestions is a quick road to failure.

[TomcatViP]

was just jocking :-P

[drewpee]

Sorry not aimed at you Tomcat. I can take a joke, just not so good at criticism it would appear ;)

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

If it was pointed at me: sorry if my allusion to your "supersenses" did not come over as a jokingly teasing as it was meant to be.

And I also did not want to come over as not taking into consideration your opinion. I just have a different one and I expressed it. This was in no way meant to depreciate yours.

[drewpee]

Thanks

[Insuber]

I tried to fly the Hurri, with canopy open/closed. With the open canopy I saved myself from a sneaking attack of a 109, thanks to the sound radar. It's unbelievable, I heard the 109 from far away, on my low six ... Now I understand why many Hurricanes fly with open canopies.
Do something, please!

[ATAG_Snapper]

I tried to fly the Hurri, with canopy open/closed. With the open canopy I saved myself from a sneaking attack of a 109, thanks to the sound radar. It's unbelievable, I heard the 109 from far away, on my low six ... Now I understand why many Hurricanes fly with open canopies.
Do something, please!

Absolutely!!! For us Hurricane pilots it's a bloody nuisance. There we are cruising along with canopy open, enjoying the sound of the rushing wind and unrestricted view, when that blasted supercharger whine intrudes into our blissful reverie and.......OUR SCREENS GO BLACK!!!!! Every bloody time!!! We have to exit and respawn each time! Obviously a sound bug which causes this glitch to occur time and again! :twisted:

[Insuber]

Absolutely!!! For us Hurricane pilots it's a bloody nuisance. There we are cruising along with canopy open, enjoying the sound of the rushing wind and unrestricted view, when that blasted supercharger whine intrudes into our blissful reverie and.......OUR SCREENS GO BLACK!!!!! Every bloody time!!! We have to exit and respawn each time! Obviously a sound bug which causes this glitch to occur time and again! :twisted:

LOL! I would call it a minengeschoss hug, rather than a sound bug :-D

[phoenix1963]

Absolutely!!! For us Hurricane pilots it's a bloody nuisance. There we are cruising along with canopy open, enjoying the sound of the rushing wind and unrestricted view, when that blasted supercharger whine intrudes into our blissful reverie and.......OUR SCREENS GO BLACK!!!!! Every bloody time!!! We have to exit and respawn each time! Obviously a sound bug which causes this glitch to occur time and again! :twisted:

Very good! Us 56'ers tend to suffer the same fate.
I just wish the 109 vulchers over Manston on ATAG would distinguish between us Hurris and the Spit IIs.

Seriously, the devs need to adjust the sound for the apparent wind speed and direction. There's no way we should hear 109s behind us at 200mph!

56RAF_phoenix

[Outlaw]

I have been in the tail gunner position of the Texas Raider (B-17) while the Gunfighters P-51 came in for a photo op. He approached and overtook within 50'-75' and I never heard anything. He then formed up right on the starboard wing and from the waist gunner position I heard nothing.

From the waist gun position through the bomb bay you can literally yell as loud as you can 6 inches from someone's ear and the only thing you will notice is that the engine sound changes slightly at the same time you feel their breath hit your ear. Nothing even intelligible as a voice can be distinguished.

You might be able to feel some sounds like the "CRUMP" of AAA or maybe a machine cannon firing 10-15 yards away but that would be it.

Other than that, if it didn't hit your aircraft, my experience is that you would not be able to hear it.


--Outlaw.

[TomcatViP]

Thx for sharing your experience Outlaw.

btw Great car :D

[Flanker35M]

S!

The sonar sound is a real immersion killer. Many times dived down from the sun for a nice bounce but oh wait..he heard me hundreds of meters away and evaded me just like that. SIGH! Hopefully fixed soon along with non-existent or very scarsely heard hit sounds.

Outlaw..that Stingray sure looks nice :) Wish you miles with a big smile! :D

[TomcatViP]

It wld be honest to say that more and more ppl are converting to no sound radar or flying canopy closed at high speed.

Just a big salute for those that hve made this effort. I know that it can be a difficult move when you had some habits. SO thx to them.

Tips : how do I keep my 6 clear ?
either :
- fly in a cte turn ( 10 to 20 deg bank angle) alternating left and right turns with slow climb and shallow descent
- Use your rudder and opposite aileron to sweep your tail left and right for quick 6 check

The first method keep your overall E level. The second makes your speed varies but your heading cte.

Hence you've got to use it appropriately.

For example Method 2 is for navigation and method 1 for TARCAP

Just my 2 cents (you prob know all abt that alrdy)

~S!

[Chefer]

Personally I'd rather just read and extract the most concrete information on such forums avoiding slanted opinions.

This time I would like to add a few comments:

I fully agree that the "sound radar" need to be adjusted though personally, with only two weeks online in ATAG server, I've been engaged in cold side without hearing the approaching enemy. Sometimes I listen the attacker after a closing pass or just after seeing his tracers. More than once I realized the whole wing stuck without hearing any impact.
I'm playing spits, canopy closed and using monitor speakers. Never noticed an approach of a mid distance through ac engine's sound.
Maybe using the headset...

Because this I don't agree when somebody says that "sound radar" is the responsible for its target break on incoming. Remember that we have players using communication, there is the flak warrning and they may be check the six all the time...

I think adjusting external sounds from a spec distance and eliminating them only at the player rear quarter would be a right direction for this problem.

For the fact of the flight with open canopy without any loss of performance what to say? It is a complete nonsense and needs urgent programming work.

I am returning to virtual combat after five years away and I think this combat sim have enough to be really good in the future. I congratulate all of you who are contributing in this direction and I hope that you will be heard.

Salute!

Chefer

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Question: Has sound radar already been added to the bugtracker? It is less now but still present in latest beta patch when sitting in a spit. One still can clearly hear the 109 whizzle even with closed cockpit.

[TomcatViP]

I still can see some of the Spits flying with canopy open on the video. Guess why ;)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=443929#post443929

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Well, sitting yesterday in a 109 I got badly surprised. So no longer sound radar here.

Sitting before yesterday in a spit (with closed cockpit) I could hear the 109 that overshot me ...

Where is the report in the bugtracker (for voting on it) or is it to be created?

I don't want to hear any external sounds with my engine running whether with open or closed cockpit. Should be not too difficult to implement. They have already successfully implemented a difference in sounds when opening or closing canopy (wind sound or no wind sound). So they just need to add an if clause checking for engine running or not.

[bongodriver]

I still can see some of the Spits flying with canopy open on the video. Guess why ;)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=443929#post443929

Because they can?

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

It's still blatantly wrong that open canopies allow to hear external sounds and come at no drag panalty. Equally wrong is that external sounds can be heared with closed canopies as well.

Are there any other aircraft for which external sounds can be heard?

EDIT: one also hears the 109 whizzle inside the 109 cockpit ...

[IvanK]

Prior to the latest Beta Sonar Sound with canopy closed no longer ocurred.
After this Beta Sonar Sound though no where near as bad as previously is back even with canopy closed.

I think previously the Canopy Open/Close was a temporary fix to kill Sonar Sound. Agree with Stormcrow it shouldnt be a criteria to determine Sonar Sound ON/OFF.

So Yes Sonar Sound is back, but not as dramatic as iy once was .... but shouldn't be there at all !

[6S.Manu]

Because they can?

It's only the first part of the sentence.

The second part is: "And they don't care about realism".

Simulator this, simulator that... at last for most the only important thing is to take down the enemy...

If it could be done in the 109 too I'm quite sure there will be many guys doing the same: it's because issues like these that I like to fly within a limited community.

[Ze-Jamz]

It's only the first part of the sentence.

The second part is: "And they don't care about realism".

Simulator this, simulator that... at last for most the only important thing is to take down the enemy...

If it could be done in the 109 too I'm quite sure there will be many guys doing the same: it's because issues like these that I like to fly within a limited community.

#like

[Sammi79]

I haven't played in a while, but I can honestly say in 100+ hrs of flying on ATAG servers across the many patches, and being shot down almost every flight, I never heard this sound radar thing. Roughly half the time the first indication that I had an enemy on my 6 was a black screen pilot killed.

The other half I spotted them because I had learned to fly whilst looking backwards 90% of the time and constantly changing course.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Thing is, in my experience, flying with the canopy open or jettisoned makes you more vunerable to being pilot killed. ;)

[Sammi79]

Thing is, in my experience, flying with the canopy open or jettisoned makes you more vunerable to being pilot killed. ;)

I wouldn't know, it's not something I do, same as using flaps at high speed.

[CaptainDoggles]

Seems like 50% of the spit pilots I come across are (ab)using the sound radar.

Quite frustrating to spend 15 minutes stalking someone and setting up a bounce, only to have them magically detect you in their blind spot.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Sound radar most definately exists with canopy open, which I always do coz I can see better. I only fly red, just in case anyone doesn't know.

Last night I would've been blown out of the sky by Little_D were it not for hearing him coming. I checked my 6 and there he was, easily 100yds away.

I avoided his first pass with a steep turn and we swung around for a couple of more or less head on passes, and on the third pass he stopped my engine. I got a shot off at him even with a dead engine but missed, then dived down to Hawkinge for an emergency landing.

I survived, but really I shouldn't have. ;)

[TomcatViP]

Amen my son. For your repentance we give you the absolution. Now you will have to copy ten thousand times kneeling down under the rain your T.O procedures : "Close the hood past 150" "Close the hood past 150" "Close the hood past 150" "Close the hood past 150" ...

[ATAG_Dutch]

Absolutely not! :grin:

[Flanker35M]

S!

The sound radar is annoying. You simply can't hear a plane behind you with a roaring 1000hp+ engine in front of you, plane rattling and all that. Seeing people flying canopy open just makes me laugh how game has to be gamed to achieve something. Talk about a "simulator" :rolleyes:

[Sammi79]

Someone else might want to check this, but I noticed yesterday, that there is a head movement effect that changes depending on whether or not the canopy is open. I totally agree that you shouldn't hear opponents aircraft unless possibly they are very very close say 50- feet or not at all, but like I said I have never heard it. regarding canopy though,

On the Spit IIa I checked on the ground, when looking backward, your head moves to one side or the other so you can look past the tail.

I believe this is meant to give a bit more sideways movement when the canopy is open, but;

It seems to be reversed, so when the canopy is closed you actually get a better look at your 6. (more lateral head movement)

I don't often get sneaked up on anymore because as I stated I spend most air time looking backwards, and not staying on straight or level long enough for someone to exploit the blind spot. This is a conditioned behavior as a result of primarily lone wolf flying! but people flying with open canopy might want to consider that right now, your blind spot is bigger with the canopy open.

I am reinstalling now to check whether the big stutters I was having yesterday are a result of the latest patch or my system so I will check later hopefully.

Any thoughts?

[TomcatViP]

it simulate the force of the airstream preventing the movement of your head IMO. This was in the game since day one.

@Dutch : I shld hve known that ;)

[5./JG27.Farber]

I wouldn't know, it's not something I do, same as using flaps at high speed.

I would, as when you jettison the canopy to bail out and pull up you generally get shot in the face. Doesnt happen half as much with canopy on.

[Robo.]

I agree, this is extremely annoying. :(

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Is there already something in the bugtracker for this?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Is there already something in the bugtracker for this?


http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/154

For those who feel it is an issue (which I do, all joking aside), please vote. There are 48 votes already which should get the devs' attention.

[Sammi79]

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/154

For those who feel it is an issue (which I do, all joking aside), please vote. There are 48 votes already which should get the devs' attention.

Done.