CloD should be an MMO

[TheEditor]

I'm not talking about WOW crap either.I hated the idea of MMO's. I found out that if done right, they can be great! Any body play EVE online? Sometimes you just got to pay for a more polished product. If the game was done right, you may have players that don't care about flying that provide logistic for the squadron. Maybe have players that maintain the aircraft.
The ideas are endless. Now I know IL2 players well and change is hard for you but this is the future of gaming.

Please add ideas to this and not tell me it wouldn't work. Example of the impossible is that CCP, maker of EVE, is coming out with a FPS on the PS3 that connects with EVE on the PC this summer. http://www.dust514.com/en/home/

I know your thinking, "whats this got to do with IL2?" Well its just an example of how you can expand Clod more to a bigger crowd.

http://worldoftanks.com/ this is another example.

[SYN_Repent]

or world of planes?? http://www.worldofplanesgame.com/en/media/screenshots/

[drewpee]

Sorry but what is WOW crap, MMO's, EVE, FPS, CCP and PS3. I must be old because I don't know what you just said. But your probably right:)

[Kranak]

I can see this working. It would be a huge undertaking and would require a monthly subscription to maintain but would open Cliffs to a bigger audience.

[conio]

I think you are up to something....
It would great if console players, controlled tanks and soldiers FPS style and we, the fly-boys could provide air cover, attack etc..

This way they could get tons of more players/paying customers.

[FFCW_Urizen]

There is a game, that has that already, it´s called BF3 ;) .

[Sokol1]

Battleground Europe

Sokol1

[Nicolo]

World of Warcraft is one of the greatest games ever made. It doesn't have any competitor. All Blizzard games are awesome. Since blackthorne, on super nes, I'm playing their games and having lots of fun.

Sometimes this comunity sounds like people here only play simms and fps shooters. It's like being a person who only watches one kind of movie or only reads one kind of book. You are not enjoying a lot of entertainment.

There's no need to be a fanatic pc simmer. I personally don't like to play on consoles, but I find many console games to be great, if not for gameplay, at least for story and designs.

In this situation, I can only think of this:

6MRRMgeOZqs

[robtek]

WoW isn't a game. It's a money printing machine, with millions of addicts, trying to escape RL.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

WoW isn't a game. It's a money printing machine, with millions of addicts, trying to escape RL.+1

[Nicolo]

WoW isn't a game. It's a money printing machine, with millions of addicts, trying to escape RL.

http://www.abbeyfield.com/PublishingImages/%286_2%29%201a%20News.jpg

[Zoom2136]

I think such a product would have great appeal.

Oleg back in the days hinted that he would have liked to expend Clod as an Air/Land/Sea sim. What you talk about (and I've played Eve Online) would expand on the previous concept.

I think that this would be a great direction in which to stear Clod. The business model would make more sence also.

Can you imagine:

Trains controlled by humans (for those of you that don't know... people actually by train simulators). NEW MARKET

Tanks controlled by humans - NEW MARKET

Ships controlled by humans - NEW MARKET

ETC. - NEW MARKET :)

I can just imagine running industries, building planes, ships, tanks, etc. to supply the front lines. Having to ferry airplane to the front line, etc.

It's a world of possibilities.

Maybe 1c could leverage the work that they did in other games, and make the 3D models/content available to Maddox games.... If you go the Pay to Play route, they would be able to pay some royalties in order to use the content...

So a different business model opens up a lot of possibilities.

[ZG15_FALKE]

Only problem here: for finacially running a development of that scale it must be the wrong concept to adress a niche and try to expand from there.

If you would create a MMO game an have a solid base of consumers, it would make possible to pay for development into niche product in the very end.

Sorry I think the speculation about having the CloD Engine as a base for a MMo Sim is just a dream that will not come true. It´s simply not producing enough money to work out.

[klem]

I'm not talking about WOW crap either.I hated the idea of MMO's. I found out that if done right, they can be great! Any body play EVE online? Sometimes you just got to pay for a more polished product. If the game was done right, you may have players that don't care about flying that provide logistic for the squadron. Maybe have players that maintain the aircraft.
The ideas are endless. Now I know IL2 players well and change is hard for you but this is the future of gaming.

Please add ideas to this and not tell me it wouldn't work. Example of the impossible is that CCP, maker of EVE, is coming out with a FPS on the PS3 that connects with EVE on the PC this summer. http://www.dust514.com/en/home/

I know your thinking, "whats this got to do with IL2?" Well its just an example of how you can expand Clod more to a bigger crowd.

http://worldoftanks.com/ this is another example.

@drewpee:
MMO - Massive Multiplayer Online
Typically supporting hundreds (thousands in some games?) on one server.

Its not new. The original internet air combat game was Air Warrior, followed by Warbirds then Aces High. It calls for a really good server (AH used to run on a mainframe) and very good connection but I have heard there is a problem with CoD and IL-2 regarding the amount of data flow, not so much for the server as for the players' connections.

I took part in AW and AH scenarios that included as many as 400-500 players organised into say RAF and LW or USAF and IJN/IJA Squadrons (fighters, bombers) with campaign objectives and controllers. Typically Battle of Britain, Pearl Harbour, Midway, Big Week etc.. The sight of 60+ B17s heading my way in formation was awsome.

These scenarios called for pre-registration, Command staff appointment, organisation of units and personnel, mission planning and briefing with dissemination through passworded forums (or other methods). Arrival on the night 'in uniform' with Unit login names, redirection to appropriateTeamspeaks, reporting to your CO, pre-flight briefings, Scheduled takeoffs, the whole works.

Takes a lot of time and effort but well worth it. Guys are getting a light flavour of it in the JG27 BoB campaign running now.

Of course on a normal night there would only be around 200 guys doing what we do in CoD, uncordinated to a large degree but with plenty of scope to link up with other units on any night and we would often pitch our squadron against friends to fight over a corner of the map. The maps were objective based and you could 'win' airfields, after inflicting enough damage, with paratroops or ground forces and could 'win the map' if you won enough objectives, something the CoD server guys are working on I believe.

Bring it on MG!!

EDIT: there was a $10 a month subscription for that but the game was free. I should think $5 a month would be a huge boost to MGs income :) I'd pay that.

[jimbop]

Only problem here: for finacially running a development of that scale it must be the wrong concept to adress a niche and try to expand from there.

If you would create a MMO game an have a solid base of consumers, it would make possible to pay for development into niche product in the very end.

Sorry I think the speculation about having the CloD Engine as a base for a MMo Sim is just a dream that will not come true. It´s simply not producing enough money to work out.

+1. This idea is good but would need to be approached from the other end. It would also need strong game aspects and I am not convinced that 1c is up to that particular challenge.

[phoenix1963]

Sadly Klem, the numbers of people doing flight simming is going down. I had a chat with an NVidia engineer who said flight sims used to drive the graphic market, but no more.

I think it's a generational thing, people of our generation grew up with stories of WW2 and the huge importance the war in the air gained during it.

So the days of very large numbers of WW2 flight simmers are probably over. We can have plenty of fun with those left and some ai though.

56RAF_phoenix

[Flanker35M]

S!

Would be a good idea if refined to suit a WW2 simulator. As I play EVE, for too long already, the examples can be taken from there. For example logistics..you need them to be successfull, not everyone can be the new Johnnie Johnson or Adolf Galland. Be it via air, JU52 anyone, or land..Opel Blitz or even a train. The options are there!

Now in Aces High you could hamper logistics by bombing certain strategic targets etc. Same in EVE..baited or intercepted other corporations' freighters and similar sure made an impact. In CoD we already have bombers to bomb factories, airfields etc. Add to this the ground element like manned AAA and there is more job to do. Always someone wants to blast away with a big gun and defend their field or depot etc.

So including more elements to CoD would propably bring more interest to it, if implemented right. EVE will get Dust 514 that brings the console crowd to the PC gaming MP in a nice way. Sure need to see how it will work in the end, but the idea is great :) So why not same for CoD..as Oleg envisioned years ago..

[TheEditor]

You guys are right, its my dream, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there. If you look at CCP, its taken them years to get EVE to the state its in today. 1c(Maddox games) doesn't have the money or the know how to do this. 1c would have to stop all the games they put out and make it one big MMO WW2 game.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

You guys are right, its my dream,
A dream that some day may come true..

But for now flight sims are and have been a nitch marking among PC games.. Which means not alot of development $

Combined that with the old addaged of.. The more you try to be all things to all people the less you can be to any specific group

BF3 is a perfect example.. You got FPS, You got tanks, You got planes, etc.. So it has it all, but no one aspect is very detailed. That is to say everything is very dumbed down, more 'game' than 'simulation'

As a die hard flight sim guy, I got to have 'details' and 'realism' first and formost.. Which typically means I need a good flight model first and formost.. Everything else is icing on the cake! That is to say you can have the best graphics (icing) out there, but, if the filght model (cake) is bad no amount of icing will make it taste good

Which brings us back to the $

[TheEditor]

A dream that some day may come true..

But for now flight sims are and have been a nitch marking among PC games.. Which means not alot of development $

Combined that with the old addaged of.. The more you try to be all things to all people the less you can be to any specific group

BF3 is a perfect example.. You got FPS, You got tanks, You got planes, etc.. So it has it all, but no one aspect is very detailed. That is to say everything is very dumbed down, more 'game' than 'simulation'

As a die hard flight sim guy, I got to have 'details' and 'realism' first and formost.. Which typically means I need a good flight model first and formost.. Everything else is icing on the cake! That is to say you can have the best graphics (icing) out there, but, if the filght model (cake) is bad no amount of icing will make it taste good

Which brings us back to the $

So what we have to do is get all the sim co. to merge to pool resources together. ;) Make sure it stays a sim. Dreaming again....

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Dreaming again....
Bingo!

Keep in mind, that coke comerical from the 70s showing everyone from around the world singing about coke was a 'hollywood' vision.. That is to say the only reason all those different types of people stood next to each other holding a coke was because they were paid to do it! ;)

[TheEditor]

WoW isn't a game. It's a money printing machine, with millions of addicts, trying to escape RL.

I think we have a few pilots here that pay for 10 copies of CloD, blow tons of money on expensive joysticks, rudder pedals, mini cockpits, computer hardware, etc all in the hope of escaping RL.

[klem]

I think we have a few pilots here that pay for 10 copies of CloD, blow tons of money on expensive joysticks, rudder pedals, mini cockpits, computer hardware, etc all in the hope of escaping RL.

What?
Who?
Me?

ermmmmmm......... :)

RL is what you make it.

[swiss]

You guys are right, its my dream,

It was Olegs too.
He said that here and also in an interview at SimHQ.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Future = ArmA style battlegrounds.

Just need to wait.

[TheEditor]

Future = ArmA style battlegrounds.

Just need to wait.

Then add sim-like vehicles.

A little off subject but anyone have BF3 and is it just the same ol First Person Shooter with better graphics or is it better?

[pupo162]

I can see this working. It would be a huge undertaking and would require a monthly subscription to maintain but would open Cliffs to a bigger audience.


im out here

[swiss]

Then add sim-like vehicles.

A little off subject but anyone have BF3 and is it just the same ol First Person Shooter with better graphics or is it better?

Different niche.
I actually doubt you can find enough Sim nerds for a SimMMO.

[onchas]

Page 3 and nobody's mentioned WWII Online/Battleground Europe.

[SIDWULF]

I think this idea is ridiculous, Let me explain.

Cliffs of Dover is a Flight simulator. The whole point of this game is to focus on the "Flight" part of the sim.

Or else you have to have a balence and quality would suffer in the flight aspect of the game. For example WWW2 Online tries to cover all areas, infantry, vehicles, airplanes, ect, but none are even close to simulations of the real thing.

Cliffs of Dover is a flight simulator.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I think this idea is ridiculous, Let me explain.

Cliffs of Dover is a Flight simulator. The whole point of this game is to focus on the "Flight" part of the sim.

Or else you have to have a balence and quality would suffer in the flight aspect of the game. For example WWW2 Online tries to cover all areas, infantry, vehicles, airplanes, ect, but none are even close to simulations of the real thing.

Cliffs of Dover is a flight simulator.Is what Im sayin! I mean said! S! ;)

[SIDWULF]

Is what Im sayin! I mean said! S! ;)

Ah yes, i read your post i just thought it needed to be repeated!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

i just thought it needed to be repeated!Agreed 100%!

Based on some of the folks in this forum it needs to be repeated over and over and over an.. well you get it! ;)

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Well, to my knowledge it was discussed and planned by MG to make aaa guns playable.

I have some small doubts if this will really interest ppl beyond a certain trial time to satisfy their curiousity (might be boring to just SIT there and wait for a bomber to fly by).

But: It is indicating the direction.

I do think it would be possible to make tanks playable with the necessary degree of detail to stand ground agains common stand alone tank sims. I also think this is more appealing than a flak gun.

[robtek]

Timing differences are a big problem.

It would be real fun for a tanker or destroyer captain to take his vehicle to the battleground for 30 to 60 min., only to get wasted by a Stuka he didn't even see.
At least the destroyer would have some aaa.

[ElAurens]

Agreed 100%!

Based on some of the folks in this forum it needs to be repeated over and over and over an.. well you get it! ;)


+1

[Hunden]

Then add sim-like vehicles.

A little off subject but anyone have BF3 and is it just the same ol First Person Shooter with better graphics or is it better?

Same old fps just better graphics, better unlocks......a ton of unlocks. No voice at this point, seems alot like call of duty. I dont think the game play is as good as bf2. Miss the squading up with the same group of people in your old faithful type server. Still not used to it I guess and it ctd quite often, almost as much as clod.

[Bewolf]

Well, to my knowledge it was discussed and planned by MG to make aaa guns playable.

I have some small doubts if this will really interest ppl beyond a certain trial time to satisfy their curiousity (might be boring to just SIT there and wait for a bomber to fly by).

But: It is indicating the direction.

I do think it would be possible to make tanks playable with the necessary degree of detail to stand ground agains common stand alone tank sims. I also think this is more appealing than a flak gun.

Depends. To be honest, there were times I more then wished for some guns to man and shoot some vulching buggers down. Could make the whole game more interesting from this PoV and give vulching a bit more credibility.

Playing tanks on the other hand requires the modelling of infantry and all kind of vehicles to really make sense, with artillery in the background to call upon, at least if taken with the same seriousness as the airwar is. IF done right, however, and combined with the flight engine and some good coordination between the two, the result could be truly epic and make this game a real seller not just along the flightsim crowds. Lots of ARMA and Battlefield players out there I imagine that are outgrowing the arcade genre and look for something more demanding.

They'd basicly need another team or even a company to concentrate on this aspect alone.

[robtek]

The biggest problem would be the network traffic, i imagine.

It is already problematic with the units in CoD now on a full server, there would be x times the objects.

Can't see this happening in the near to middle future.

[klem]

I think this idea is ridiculous, Let me explain.

Cliffs of Dover is a Flight simulator. The whole point of this game is to focus on the "Flight" part of the sim.

Or else you have to have a balence and quality would suffer in the flight aspect of the game. For example WWW2 Online tries to cover all areas, infantry, vehicles, airplanes, ect, but none are even close to simulations of the real thing.

Cliffs of Dover is a flight simulator.

Cliffs of Dover is NOT just a Flight Simulator.

Cliffs of Dover is a combat simulator with a high-spec combat flight simulation within it.

What has been done before - and is still being done - is the addition of a reasonable standard of ground war vehicle simulation to enhance the flight combat/simulation aspect which is still the main focus. It is not the same as trying to be a WWII-online all-things-to-all-men and fail on all aspects.

The ground war already exists in a limited AI form. The opportunity to jump into an AAA emplacement and defend your airfield, especially in scenarios that add realism by giving you limited air lives, adds another element to the game and it does not need to be sophisticated. Likewise, driving tanks or troops (or having defendable/defeatable AI doing it) to capture a base or other objective by driving simple vehicles including manning AAA wagons, or dropping paratroops from Dakotas that need to be flown, with a definition of 'capture' within the game, enhances the flight combat aspect of CoD. End games like 'capture' are needed to enable the air war to have meaning. It does not need to extend to a FPS ground army war, estabishment of forces on the ground would be enough. You cannot take ground from the air and the air aspect is enhanced further by having to attack or defend those ground forces.

If you limit 'winning' a mission to just shooting down all the other aircraft or just flattening buildings and walking away you are in the wrong game/mindset. But I wonder how many 'its only a flight sim' guys have ever experienced a broader simulation than that.

Oleg always wanted it to be more than just manned aircraft and if CoD is to survive it needs to compete with the other on-line air war games which is where its longevity will lie. Offline play becomes stale after so many times playing it and people move on to something else once it has been exhausted. Only on-line play is continually unpredictable.

Also, think about the current business model where income is only from the short life release of a new phase of CoD which takes ages to develop. Its a poor business model and more needs to be made from all that input and what do you do when you run out of history to simulate? It may be fine for the guys that are game-hungry and move on after a while to something else, leaving CoD behind, but if MG could develop CoD into a MMO, then support it with a powerful server supporting a few hundred players and charged a low monthly subscription for those that were interested in large scale play, they would have a steady income and I would bet money that many of our players would take it up and players currently on other MMO air combat sims would take it up too because its a better simulation. At the moment there is, I think, only one half-decent air combat sim that is a MMO game. Those that aren't interested can simply continue as they are.

And don't tell me it can't be done due to connection speeds, a few short years ago people were fighting to get 1Mb down/200k up. Now 30, 40, 50Mb down and 2, 5, 10Mb up is widely available. The clever part is designing it so that current generation PCs (which we'll all have in a couple of years time) can handle it.

[tintifaxl]

I'm not interested in a WW2 Sim-MMO. And I would not pay a monthly fee.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Cliffs of Dover is NOT just a Flight Simulator.

Cliffs of Dover is a combat simulator with a high-spec combat flight simulation within it.

What has been done before - and is still being done - is the addition of a reasonable standard of ground war vehicle simulation to enhance the flight combat/simulation aspect which is still the main focus. It is not the same as trying to be a WWII-online all-things-to-all-men and fail on all aspects.

The ground war already exists in a limited AI form. The opportunity to jump into an AAA emplacement and defend your airfield, especially in scenarios that add realism by giving you limited air lives, adds another element to the game and it does not need to be sophisticated. Likewise, driving tanks or troops (or having defendable/defeatable AI doing it) to capture a base or other objective by driving simple vehicles including manning AAA wagons, or dropping paratroops from Dakotas that need to be flown, with a definition of 'capture' within the game, enhances the flight combat aspect of CoD. End games like 'capture' are needed to enable the air war to have meaning. It does not need to extend to a FPS ground army war, estabishment of forces on the ground would be enough. You cannot take ground from the air and the air aspect is enhanced further by having to attack or defend those ground forces.

If you limit 'winning' a mission to just shooting down all the other aircraft or just flattening buildings and walking away you are in the wrong game/mindset. But I wonder how many 'its only a flight sim' guys have ever experienced a broader simulation than that.

Oleg always wanted it to be more than just manned aircraft and if CoD is to survive it needs to compete with the other on-line air war games which is where its longevity will lie. Offline play becomes stale after so many times playing it and people move on to something else once it has been exhausted. Only on-line play is continually unpredictable.

Also, think about the current business model where income is only from the short life release of a new phase of CoD which takes ages to develop. Its a poor business model and more needs to be made from all that input and what do you do when you run out of history to simulate? It may be fine for the guys that are game-hungry and move on after a while to something else, leaving CoD behind, but if MG could develop CoD into a MMO, then support it with a powerful server supporting a few hundred players and charged a low monthly subscription for those that were interested in large scale play, they would have a steady income and I would bet money that many of our players would take it up and players currently on other MMO air combat sims would take it up too because its a better simulation. At the moment there is, I think, only one half-decent air combat sim that is a MMO game. Those that aren't interested can simply continue as they are.

And don't tell me it can't be done due to connection speeds, a few short years ago people were fighting to get 1Mb down/200k up. Now 30, 40, 50Mb down and 2, 5, 10Mb up is widely available. The clever part is designing it so that current generation PCs (which we'll all have in a couple of years time) can handle it.

+1 ;)

[TheEditor]

Cliffs of Dover is NOT just a Flight Simulator.

Cliffs of Dover is a combat simulator with a high-spec combat flight simulation within it.

What has been done before - and is still being done - is the addition of a reasonable standard of ground war vehicle simulation to enhance the flight combat/simulation aspect which is still the main focus. It is not the same as trying to be a WWII-online all-things-to-all-men and fail on all aspects.

The ground war already exists in a limited AI form. The opportunity to jump into an AAA emplacement and defend your airfield, especially in scenarios that add realism by giving you limited air lives, adds another element to the game and it does not need to be sophisticated. Likewise, driving tanks or troops (or having defendable/defeatable AI doing it) to capture a base or other objective by driving simple vehicles including manning AAA wagons, or dropping paratroops from Dakotas that need to be flown, with a definition of 'capture' within the game, enhances the flight combat aspect of CoD. End games like 'capture' are needed to enable the air war to have meaning. It does not need to extend to a FPS ground army war, estabishment of forces on the ground would be enough. You cannot take ground from the air and the air aspect is enhanced further by having to attack or defend those ground forces.

If you limit 'winning' a mission to just shooting down all the other aircraft or just flattening buildings and walking away you are in the wrong game/mindset. But I wonder how many 'its only a flight sim' guys have ever experienced a broader simulation than that.

Oleg always wanted it to be more than just manned aircraft and if CoD is to survive it needs to compete with the other on-line air war games which is where its longevity will lie. Offline play becomes stale after so many times playing it and people move on to something else once it has been exhausted. Only on-line play is continually unpredictable.

Also, think about the current business model where income is only from the short life release of a new phase of CoD which takes ages to develop. Its a poor business model and more needs to be made from all that input and what do you do when you run out of history to simulate? It may be fine for the guys that are game-hungry and move on after a while to something else, leaving CoD behind, but if MG could develop CoD into a MMO, then support it with a powerful server supporting a few hundred players and charged a low monthly subscription for those that were interested in large scale play, they would have a steady income and I would bet money that many of our players would take it up and players currently on other MMO air combat sims would take it up too because its a better simulation. At the moment there is, I think, only one half-decent air combat sim that is a MMO game. Those that aren't interested can simply continue as they are.

And don't tell me it can't be done due to connection speeds, a few short years ago people were fighting to get 1Mb down/200k up. Now 30, 40, 50Mb down and 2, 5, 10Mb up is widely available. The clever part is designing it so that current generation PCs (which we'll all have in a couple of years time) can handle it.

+1
Well said! I had that attitude of "I'm not paying for MMO crap". After game after game of paying $49.99 and getting a broken, buggy, unplayable mess, I started a 21 day free trial of EVE and guess what happen? The game worked! Now when I say broken and buggy, I'm just not talking about CloD, even big name games like BFBC2 are screwed up console ports too!

I'm now willing to pay for an MMO but only if its like EVE's business model. I don't like star treks MMO of pay for premium ships. No player should get the upper hand cuz they throw more money at the game.

[Osprey]

WoW isn't a game. It's a money printing machine, with millions of addicts, trying to escape RL.

Only it's a cult, like the Mac cult.

[Zoom2136]

Guys,

Albert Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

When you get 'tunnel vision' it is easy to fail to see that commercial success is not achieved through a niche market like a 'flight sim' but through a larger one like a 'war simulator'.

Most people that I tried to get interested in iL2 were put off by the steep learning curve. After getting shot down by veterans (or should I say bi***tch slapped around the sky) for a few weeks, they simply gave up. These were not 'hard core' fans of military aviation, but rather guys that though it looked cool. These are typical customers. Dye hard simmers are a dying breed. When iL2 first came out, its average player’s age was close to 40 years old. This mean that today, more than 10 years later, its closer to 50, as younger player are more into consoles and FPS.

Consequently, if you introduce a land element, like tanks, transport, trains, that are user controllable, than you introduce a FPS element to the game. This would have a larger appeal. If 1c would like to overcome the apparent problem of having to 'drive' for an hour in order to engage the enemy, one could select AI controlled land units on the fly...

If I was running the development, I would introduce a few user controlled tanks to begin with, and see how it is receive... hell… let the modders do it in the beginning and go from there.

I own a company that successfully brought a SaaS to market, so I know firsthand that there are people out there willing to help out a company with limited resources but a great product. They should leverage the power of their fan base. Even if what comes out of it is a pay to play version of Clod, as long as they are upfront about it in the beginning, people will be willing to help.

Finally, if at all possible, they should leverage what 3d models that exist in other 1c games. It is time to think differently and create synergies.

I think that it is time to think outside the box if we want flight sims to survive. Maybe it is time for them to evolve into something different. If not, developers are looking at a smaller and smaller market, thus repeating history all over again, but expecting a bigger commercial success.

My 2c

[SIDWULF]

I was 18 when i started playing IL2 and was in love with the Spitfire. After realizing alot of other people were in love with it too i wasent so much in love with it anymore and now i only fly German...haha

But anyways it seems only young people who already have a facination with WW2 aircraft would pick up on this sim as i have. The other older generation possibly had thier fathers or someone thier father knew actually fly or fight in that era. The story would then be passed along somewhere and spark an intrest.

[klem]

I was 18 when i started playing IL2 and was in love with the Spitfire. After realizing alot of other people were in love with it too i wasent so much in love with it anymore and now i only fly German...haha

But anyways it seems only young people who already have a facination with WW2 aircraft would pick up on this sim as i have. The other older generation possibly had thier fathers or someone thier father knew actually fly or fight in that era. The story would then be passed along somewhere and spark an intrest.

In the fifteen years I have been playing on-line air combat sims its always been the same. There have never been many 'kids' playing. We had three join us a couple of years ago and only one stayed. There was one young lad many years ago who became interested mainly because his parents played.

On the other hand, guys reaching towards their 30s and above are the ones that tend to take it up.

I think the reasons are fairly starightforward. There's a steep learning curve which doesn't alway suit the impatience of youth, there aren't the numbers of other young kids to encourage and peer-pressure them into staying with it, the more 'mature' (I use the term loosely on this forum!) people have had time to become interested in the era and aviation in general and may be looking for more realistic simulations rather than FPSs.

Many of the guys playing now were too young to take to it ten years ago when we could have been having the same discussion about niche markets.

I don't think the future for air combat sims is gloomy at all, its never been a big market. I haven't looked lately but I wonder what sort of numbers Aces High is still getting. That's an MMO and might be a good yardstick.

[Hood]

Then add sim-like vehicles.

A little off subject but anyone have BF3 and is it just the same ol First Person Shooter with better graphics or is it better?

Yes but it is far better.

[TheEditor]

It good to hear that other people here feel the same way I do. I'm 29 now and Flight Sims got me started in PC gaming. My first sim was 1942. I think the pc was a 486 DX :). Even that game let you move your carrier fleet then hop into your plane.

I played DCS A-10 and it a great sim but programming targets in the planes computer all day long make me want to be in a spitfire. I can't fly Clod right now cuz my FPS are too bad. So I'm waiting for next-gen video cards to replace my crap 5770 setup. This post turned into a mind dump.

Anybody like using skill books to better improve your pilot if Clod was an MMO?

[klem]

It good to hear that other people here feel the same way I do. I'm 29 now and Flight Sims got me started in PC gaming. My first sim was 1942. I think the pc was a 486 DX :). Even that game let you move your carrier fleet then hop into your plane.

I played DCS A-10 and it a great sim but programming targets in the planes computer all day long make me want to be in a spitfire. I can't fly Clod right now cuz my FPS are too bad. So I'm waiting for next-gen video cards to replace my crap 5770 setup. This post turned into a mind dump.

Anybody like using skill books to better improve your pilot if Clod was an MMO?

I'm amazed that you can't fly CoD with a 5770, perhaps with settings around Medium? The rest of your spec looks just fine. More than fine. Did you try disabling Crossfire?

[TheEditor]

I'm amazed that you can't fly CoD with a 5770, perhaps with settings around Medium? The rest of your spec looks just fine. More than fine. Did you try disabling Crossfire?

I've done all that plus new drivers. It started on the last beta patch we got and didn't get any better now. I cleared the cache too.

[klem]

I've done all that plus new drivers. It started on the last beta patch we got and didn't get any better now. I cleared the cache too.

I think the inconsistency across similar spec or what would generally be considered only a year ago to be a high spec PC is one of the most frustrating things. I know there are many variables inside and outside the game but I'm damned if I can ever see a pattern.

btw what resolution are you running? I'm on 1680x1050. If yours is higher did you try turning in down?