Fuel Tanks on the BF 110

[ATAG_Keller]

Since the official patch has changed the way the fuel works for the 110, has anyone figured out how to manage them? I tried every combination of fuel cocks using the levers on the left of the seat as well as the selector on the right side console and I could not figure out how to draw fuel from the front left and rear right tanks.

I'm guessing that the tanks are engine specific now since I somehow ran out of fuel for my right engine that seemed to be drawing from the right front tank and my left engine was still running seemingly drawing from the left rear tank. Since the front tanks start with a larger quantity of fuel this is confusing to me.

Is this messed up or am I doing something wrong?

Has anyone mastered this new system?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

check the TWO RED KNOB levers on the left hand side.. they were not used before, but since the last patch they now act as fuel cocks

As far as I can tell they act as the main on/off and the stuff that use to control it on the right hand side now selects which tanks you use? Just guessing here.. but I had the same problem, slide them two levers on the LHS with the red knobs and youll be good to go

[robtek]

The two red levers behind the throttles operate the fuel-pumps.

There are 4 fuel pumps, one in each tank.

The engines get their fuel from one of the two main tanks (frontal switch)

The rear tanks are reserve tanks and are used to fill up the selected main tank (rear switch).

The engines cannot feed from the rear tanks, only fom the main tanks.

[ATAG_Keller]

Ok, that makes a little more sense. Since the red levers have 4 positions what should be standard procedure for fuel management? I'm also not clear on how you fill the main tanks via the reserve tanks.

[robtek]

You can just turn on all 4 pumps with the levers all the way to the front in the game now.

If the fuel flow is modeled correctly you can use the rear switch to choose wich main tank is refilled, middle meaning both.

That is only important when you have a fuel leak, to save as much fuel as possible.

[ATAG_Keller]

Alright, I think I've discovered the problem.

When you set tank 4 to fill tank 2 it actually fills tank 3. This means that both reserve tanks feed engine 1, but only tank 2 will feed engine 2.

[robtek]

Just to get the names right.

Tank 1 -> front left -> main tank -> feeds both engines when selected
Tank 2 -> front right -> main tank -> feeds both engines when selected
Tank 3 -> rear left -> reserve tank -> feeds selected main tank when selected
Tank 4 -> rear right -> reserve tank -> feeds selected main tank when selected

Thats the way it should be afaik

[ZG15_FALKE]

Just to put in some more confusion:

There are eight fuel Pumps in a Bf110 C.

Two pumps per engine, which are engine-mounted and driven by the engine itself. These two pumps are operated by two units 'Brandhahn Armatur' which have three purposes: first to filter fuel from any polluntant, second they work as a deshydrator, third they operate as a fuel cock. These units are fuel-cock-wise operated by the two red-knobbed levers on the left of the pilot. The lever either closes both units (Brandhahn zu), opens unit one P1 (pump 1 can deliver fuel) unit 2 or both.
Brandhahnarmatur is 'A' in following picture
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4403/kraftstoffanlagebf110c.jpg
'B' is fuel line connector to engine driven fuel pump

So thats only 4 pumps, right!

The Bf110 has 4 fuel tanks, 2 in each wing. The forward tanks are maintanks which can feed the engines. The rear tanks are reserve tanks. To use the reserve tanks you have to use fuel out of the main tank first and then feed fuel to the main tank out of the reserve tank. (remember engines only can be fed from a main fuel tank!)
Even if one main tank is damaged both motors can be fed by one main tank. To this every fuel tank is equipped with one immersion fuel pump for transfer pumping purposes. The direction of transfer pumping is controlled by the two lever switch to the right of the pilot.
C4 and C7 switching logic should be:
°|°
°|° normal switching for use of main tanks, left engines fueled by left main tank and right engines out of right main tank.

°\°
°/° transfer from reserve tanks to left main tank

°/°
°/° transfer from reserve tanks to right main tank

°\°
°|° fueling both engines from left main tank, i.e. if right main tank is damaged

°/°
°|° fueling both engines from right main tank, i.e. if left main tank is damaged


Whether that is correctly simulated, we have to find out.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=27050

[JG53Frankyboy]

i am using key shortcuts to conrol fuel.
so i have set two keys, every is to toggle throug the fuel'cock' settings of one side.
#1 front, rear, both, none (left engine , or in single engines planes )
#2 front, rear, both, none (right engine)
These are the two left levers.

The right instrument panel, when i use my mousecursor, i get fuelcocknummbers like #3.
I dont think one needs them.

This game is good in simulation some things, but it does not simulate the reality 100% - i dont think it will ever, and i dont think too it cant - never expecting it !

[ATAG_Keller]

Wow, thanks for that post ZG15_FALKE, now I understand the system.

Seems as though it's not properly modeled in game as the front switch has no neutral position.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Just to put in some more confusion:
C4 and C7 switching logic should be:
°|°
°|° normal switching for use of main tanks, left engines fueled by left main tank and right engines out of right main tank.

°\°
°/° transfer from reserve tanks to left main tank

°/°
°/° transfer from reserve tanks to right main tank

°\°
°|° fueling both engines from left main tank, i.e. if right main tank is damaged

°/°
°|° fueling both engines from right main tank, i.e. if left main tank is damaged

Whether that is correctly simulated, we have to find out.
Cool!

A picture, even ascii, is worth a 1000 words! Thanks FALKE

[ATAG_Doc]

Just to put in some more confusion:

There are eight fuel Pumps in a Bf110 C.

Two pumps per engine, which are engine-mounted and driven by the engine itself. These two pumps are operated by two units 'Brandhahn Armatur' which have three purposes: first to filter fuel from any polluntant, second they work as a deshydrator, third they operate as a fuel cock. These units are fuel-cock-wise operated by the two red-knobbed levers on the left of the pilot. The lever either closes both units (Brandhahn zu), opens unit one P1 (pump 1 can deliver fuel) unit 2 or both.
Brandhahnarmatur is 'A' in following picture
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4403/kraftstoffanlagebf110c.jpg
'B' is fuel line connector to engine driven fuel pump

So thats only 4 pumps, right!

The Bf110 has 4 fuel tanks, 2 in each wing. The forward tanks are maintanks which can feed the engines. The rear tanks are reserve tanks. To use the reserve tanks you have to use fuel out of the main tank first and then feed fuel to the main tank out of the reserve tank. (remember engines only can be fed from a main fuel tank!)
Even if one main tank is damaged both motors can be fed by one main tank. To this every fuel tank is equipped with one immersion fuel pump for transfer pumping purposes. The direction of transfer pumping is controlled by the two lever switch to the right of the pilot.
C4 and C7 switching logic should be:
°|°
°|° normal switching for use of main tanks, left engines fueled by left main tank and right engines out of right main tank.

°\°
°/° transfer from reserve tanks to left main tank

°/°
°/° transfer from reserve tanks to right main tank

°\°
°|° fueling both engines from left main tank, i.e. if right main tank is damaged

°/°
°|° fueling both engines from right main tank, i.e. if left main tank is damaged


Whether that is correctly simulated, we have to find out.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=27050


Bro you are an asset to the community. Thanks for this info it's a great help.

[ICU_DIE535]

Wow! What a great explaination thanks guys.

[ATAG_Keller]

So what's the consensus on this subject? Are the fuel tanks working properly and I just haven't figured out the right way to manage them, or are they modeled incorrectly?

[nadasero]

So what's the consensus on this subject? Are the fuel tanks working properly and I just haven't figured out the right way to manage them, or are they modeled incorrectly?

I have done some tests. It apears that the fuel tanks are not working correctly.

Each Engine is using the fuel from its own main tank. I couldn't find a way to get fuel from the left main tank into the right engine.


°\°
°|° Normal situation. Both main tanks are used until empty.

°\°
°/° Left reserve tank pumping into left main tank (if not full)

°\°
°\° Right reserve tank pumping into left main (if not full)

°/°
°\° Bug: Right reserve pumping into left reserve

°/°
°/° Bug: Nothing happens (Left reserve pumping into itself?)

The right engine stops after the 350l are used up, no matter what. It is possible to fill up the left main tank, but it is not possible to get reserve-fuel into the right main tank. According to manuals I have seen, the red light from the reserve tanks should be switched on when the reserve tanks are empty.

If I remember this right, it was different befor the latest patch. I think the front switch was controling the usage of the main tanks.

[ATAG_Keller]

I have done some tests. It apears that the fuel tanks are not working correctly.

Each Engine is using the fuel from its own main tank. I couldn't find a way to get fuel from the left main tank into the right engine.


°\°
°|° Normal situation. Both main tanks are used until empty.

°\°
°/° Left reserve tank pumping into left main tank (if not full)

°\°
°\° Right reserve tank pumping into left main (if not full)

°/°
°\° Bug: Right reserve pumping into left reserve

°/°
°/° Bug: Nothing happens (Left reserve pumping into itself?)

The right engine stops after the 350l are used up, no matter what. It is possible to fill up the left main tank, but it is not possible to get reserve-fuel into the right main tank. According to manuals I have seen, the red light from the reserve tanks should be switched on when the reserve tanks are empty.

If I remember this right, it was different befor the latest patch. I think the front switch was controling the usage of the main tanks.

This is exactly what I had concluded. Can't wait for the fix so we can get more than 45 minutes of fly-time in a 110.


Prior to the last patch both engines fed simultaneously off of whichever tank you had selected.
Not that it matters now but it used to work like this. (Obviously historically incorrect but much simpler)

°\°
°|° Both Engines feed from front left.

°/°
°|° Both Engines feed from front right.

°|°
°/° Both Engines feed from rear left.

°|°
°\° Both Engines feed from rear right.

[Untamo]

°|°
°/° Both Engines feed from rear left.

°|°
°\° Both Engines feed from rear right.

Hmm.. how do you get the forward selector going straight up, I have only left/right selection in it, not both? The rear selector does have both though. Will have to test it this evening to make sure.

[ATAG_Keller]

Hmm.. how do you get the forward selector going straight up, I have only left/right selection in it, not both? The rear selector does have both though. Will have to test it this evening to make sure.

That's how it used to be pre patch, not anymore.

[IvanK]

Centre position of Feed tank selectors being looked at by Devs.

[I./Kg40_Night]

http://cs4131.vkontakte.ru/u1574494/140586318/z_645cfbc3.jpg

[IvanK]

Wundabar ... can someone translate into English the bottom sections please. Thats the text under each lever selection and the main block of text in the lower centre.

[Foo'bar]

1. As long white toggle warning indicators flash front main tanks contain at least 240 litres.
2. Constant flashing of white toggle warning indicators means:
at position I: droptanks are empty!
at position II: main tanks are empty!
at position III: back tanks are empty! (simultaneous flashing of red residue indicator for back tanks)
3. in the following switch back to position I. Between flashing of white toggle warning indicators and red residue indicator please check tank level.
4. when red residue indicator for main tanks flashes the recent tank contains fuel for about more 10 minutes of flight.


The six drawings mean the following:

° | °
° | ° (I) normal flight position

°\ °
° | ° position only at damaged right/starboard tank

° /°
° | ° position only at damage left/port tank

° | °
° | ° fuel will be taken from droptanks

° | °
° \° (II) fuel will be taken from main tanks

° | °
°/ ° (III) fuel will be taken from back tanks




Excuse my bad english, perhaps someone will translate better.

[IvanK]

Danke ... your English is a million times better than my Deutch :)

[IvanK]

Here is an English explanation from an RAF set of BF110 handling notes:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3852/rafbf110fuel.jpg

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6254/raf110.jpg

[IvanK]

Vultee pulled apart a BF110C5 in 1941 and did a complete engineering evaluation of it. Its a huge document. Here is Vultee's explanation of the Fuel system:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9021/vultee1.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3339/vultee2.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7352/vultee3.jpg

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8651/vultee4.jpg

[Foo'bar]

Does anyone have a german 110 manual for me?

[nadasero]

http://cs4131.vkontakte.ru/u1574494/140586318/z_645cfbc3.jpg

Hi Foo,

This picture is explaining a lot. There are some small things in your translation which might be confusing. The lights are never flashing. In normal situations they are off and under certain conditions the are on.

I think, that the picture from I./Kg40_Night comes from a 110D with the fat belly (Rumpfwanne). So we have much more tanks to control (Drop tanks, belly, wing-reserve, wing-main)

I'm from Germany to and not a native English speaker, but here is the improved translation (according to my knowledge):

1. As long as the white warning indicators are off, front main tanks contain at least 240 litres.
2. White warning indicators means:
at position I: droptanks are empty!
at position II: Fuselage (belly) tanks are empty!
at position III: back wing-tanks are empty! (lower red warning lights are on for back wing tanks at the same time)
3. in the following switch back to position I. Between white warning indicators and red residue indicator please check tank level.
4. when red residue indicator for main tanks is switched on, the main tank contains fuel for about 10 minutes of flight.


The six drawings mean the following:

° | °
° | ° (I) normal flight position

°\ °
° | ° position only at damaged right/starboard tank

° /°
° | ° position only at damage left/port tank

° | °
° | ° fuel will be taken from droptanks

° | °
° \° (II) fuel will be taken from tanks in the fuselage

° | °
°/ ° (III) fuel will be taken from back tanks


The problem with all the tanks is, that you can not measure how much is in those tanks. So we start with position (I) which means fuel is going to the engines from both main tanks and constantly refilling the main tanks from the drop tanks. If the drop tanks are empty, the fule level in the main tanks drops and when the white lights go on, it's time to drop the tanks. Main tank is on 240l at this time, so you might drop them earlier. After this, we switch to the belly tank (II) which is refilling the main tanks. We don't have a belly tank, so we can skip this step. When the belly tank is empty, the main tanks are starting to drop below the full level and the white warning lights are telling us, that it's time to switch to position (III) for refilling from the reserve wing ranks. Without drop tanks, we start with position (III).

With reserve tanks empty, the white lights tell us, that we are below 240l in the main tanks. We can switch to (I) to stop the pumps. Now we should carefully watch the fuel gauge because the upper red warning lights are a ten minute warning and without fuel we can prove our capabilities as glider pilots.

Interestingly, the manual for the 110C-5 from IvanK is telling us the same, but without the belly tank. If you have drop tanks, you start with constantly refilling from them. When the fuel level in the main tanks drop, you have a clear indication, that the drop tanks are empty. Then you switch to the reserve wing tanks.

For our normal operation, this means everything is much easier. We need just one switch position (which is sadly not available at this moment).

° | °
°/ ° (III) fuel will be taken from back reserve tanks first

This should be OK for the whole flight. We can switch of the reserve pumps if the reserve is empty, but I don't think that there is any effect in the simulation.

We can use the front switch if one of the tanks is damaged. (which is not working correctly at this moment)

By the way, I saw some manuals on ww2aircraft.net.:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/bf-110-manuals-12902.html
There is a big ground crew manual for the 110B with Jumo 210G engines and there are special manuals for special weapons like the "Schräge Musik" and a fixed rear guns, firing on persuing fighters by the pilot with a mirror sight.
You have to register for download and I'm not sure about the copyright situation on this files.

[Foo'bar]

nadasero, with flashing i meant constant flashing, no blinking (dict.leo gave me flash for "leuchten"). Sorry for confusion.

[ATAG_Keller]

Wow, so much great information! You guys are amazing!

[Untamo]

Hmm.. Weird indeed.. I tested the selector again. I have latest (15950) version of the game and I can't get the forward selector to "both" .. only the rear selector has "both" option. Anyone else have this "feature" ?

[Foo'bar]

of course we all have the same ;)

[l3uLLDoZeR]

Yes very helpful..good info and thread! I wondered why I would always lose the right engine when I still had fuel in the left tank after getting shot up. I fly the 110 often...can't beat the 500kg bombs going off on some poor guy warming up his merlin! (sorry, blowing up AI just doesn't give the same satisfaction)

Plus flying around with 4 machine guns and 2 cannons sticking out of a sharks mouth is pretty awesome!!!

I never fly at 100m like some of you in the 110, will give it a try. It climbs like a beast for me...merlins can't keep up. I stay high and BnZ, Tons of right rudder trim and pray that they don't get a pilot kill, haha.
The plane can take a beating from .303's, but that damn AP goes right through the greenhouse! I've flown halfway across the channel with a fire growing and eventually covering the whole right wing, but still landed safely! I want twin mg;s for the blind moron in the back seat, but overall I think its a sweet plane.

I've done more nosedives into the dirt on takeoff with a 110 than all of the other planes combined. Am I retarded or is the grass sticky at 180kph all of a sudden?

[l3uLLDoZeR]

I kinda need 200 kph to fly..with 1,100lbs strapped under my belly and 75% fuel.

[Foo'bar]

Put the Landeklappen to 20°. Don't follow the english manual ;) It's wrong there...

[ATAG_Keller]

Flaps to 20 degrees like Foo'bar said, and set your elevator trim tail heavy. Once the tail starts to come up stay back on your stick until you're in the air.

I also wouldn't recommend taking more than 54% fuel with two 500's under your belly. Actually, until this fuel problem is fixed there's no point in taking more than 54% ever.

[robtek]

Just be shure to have at least 100m to 150m alt. before retracting flaps, the plane starts to sink until enough speed is gathered.
The plane is "flying" with 180 km/h, but it wont climb or accelerate well because of the high aoa.
Get the gear up and reduce the trim to accelerate, then reduce the flaps bit by bit until you are fast enough, >250 km/h.

[TomcatViP]

Flaps to 20 degrees like Foo'bar said, and set your elevator trim tail heavy. Once the tail starts to come up stay back on your stick until you're in the air.

I also wouldn't recommend taking more than 54% fuel with two 500's under your belly. Actually, until this fuel problem is fixed there's no point in taking more than 54% ever.

Really ?!

I do take 100% on each flight and hve no prob to stay airborne an hour

Sad tht the GIB can't play any chess ;)

[robtek]

Afaik the Bf110C4, without external tanks, had a max. endurance of +3 h.

On max. cruise 2 h should be possible.

[ATAG_Keller]

Really ?!

I do take 100% on each flight and hve no prob to stay airborne an hour

Sad tht the GIB can't play any chess ;)

54% fuel with two SC500's is still 300-400kg overweight.

With 2 x SC500's and 100% fuel it's damn near impossible to get her off the ground safely; I've never been able to do it.

Taking 100% fuel is pointless right now, it's just dead weight.

[TomcatViP]

54% fuel with two SC500's is still 300-400kg overweight.

With 2 x SC500's and 100% fuel it's damn near impossible to get her off the ground safely; I've never been able to do it.

Taking 100% fuel is pointless right now, it's just dead weight.

Rgr but I hve alrdy experienced fuel starvation ;) Ok Ok that was an extremely looooooooong mission

Pls note that I never carry bombs in my 110. The GIB being alrdy too much dead weight for my own standards :rolleyes:.