Drove the boss's '96 911 today.

[ElAurens]

Yes, it's fast.

Yes, it has fantastic brakes.

Yes, it is incredibly well balanced.

Yes, it's so easy to drive a grandmother could take it to the grocery store.

And yes, it's totally boring. Too refined. Too civilized. Too much like everycar...

The older 911s (like the 356 before them) were all tingly and alive. The steering wheel directly connected your finger tips to the contact patch of the tire and pavement. That beautiful boxer six in the back was always at your ear. The feel and sound of machinery working in harmony was in your face. It demanded that you pay attention.

It was visceral.

It was Steve McQueen blasting through Arnage at LeMans.

It was a real sports car.


These newer 911s are too refined, too good, too removed from the act of driving.

They are Roger Penske on his way to a board meeting.

:-|

[ATAG_Dutch]

Well if I had that kind of money.........

[Sternjaeger II]

dude man, grab a helmet before Baron Wasteland reads this LOL

[335th_GRAthos]

Yes, it's fast.

Yes, it has fantastic brakes.

Yes, it is incredibly well balanced.

And yes, it's totally boring. Too refined. Too civilized. Too much like everycar...


Well, I am surprised to say the least, I did not hear you whine about the "exhaust sound control button". I presume you are not married so you have no stress driving into the garage late night...

And talking about grandmothers, did you press the "PASM" button twice to switch to sport+ mode? You would probably bite your tongue driving in this mode (and surely your grandmother couldn't). On the other side, your boss would have been crazy to give it to you in this mode, it is like giving a loaded gun to a kid!

Anyway, you had a good experience, search a bit where the two buttons are (below the navi) so next time your boss offers... ;)

~S~

[raaaid]

i think im gonna get a yamaha special 250

but whats the cheapest car you can get with no hood?

[baronWastelan]

:twisted: ElAurens was unaware that he was secretly being recorded. Now that the truth is revealed, perhaps he will tell us how he really feels :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJM7Y9g_KmY&NR=1

[ElAurens]

Sorry guys, I stand by my post.

I've done lots of track days in the past. In my job I drive lots of different newer and older exotics and sports cars.

The 911 has morphed into a GT car, especially the portly water cooled versions. There is no getting around that.

For my taste the only new Porsches that come close to the essence of what a sports car is are the Cayman S and the Boxter Spyder.

Personally if I was going to own a 911 the only one I would consider is the RS America.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the newer 911s are bad cars, they are not, but I find them lacking in soul. I can say the same thing about the newer Aston Martins as well. Wonderful cars, but dull.

On the flip side I had the '63 E-Type from the collection out on the road today and it made me feel like I was driving. Really driving. I could feel the rear end thinking about stepping out just a little as that wonderful 3.8 litre six oozed torque through the contact patches coming out of a tight right hander. Tiny correction in the steering and squeeze the go pedal a bit more, clip the apex, squirt out and select fourth...

Ah... Glorious...

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/88/img3928md4.jpg
http://http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/88/img3928md4.jpg

Me at work.

[baronWastelan]

I doubt you could list 5 power-train and suspension differences between the RS America and a "'96 911", or how many of those components are interchangeable between the 2. Wonder if you're conflating "'96 911" with "996"?

[ElAurens]

I doubt you could list 5 power-train and suspension differences between the RS America and a "'96 911", or how many of those components are interchangeable between the 2. Wonder if you're conflating "'96 911" with "996"?

Negative, it's a 993.

The RS is a lot lighter. No AC or electric doo dads. And no computer nanny messing with the brakes or throttle either.

Like I said, the 993 is not a bad car, but soul stirring it is not.

[baronWastelan]

I don't seem to have a computer nanny on my 993 messing with my brakes or throttle. I have a cable connecting accelerator pedal to the throttle body on the engine, same as RS America (964). I have hydraulic brake master cylinder with ABS, same as 964 RS America. Electric power windows, same as .... [guess].

Tell us the differences between the two models in the M64 engine. For bonus points, list 2 or 3 features from the 993 engine that many 964 owners install.

But, the 993 is newer, and therefore more "high tech", and therefore "watered down". ;)

[ElAurens]

I didn't make this post this to argue with you.

I found the car boring, porky, and not to my liking.

Certainly not as fun as the early cars.

It's easily 500 pounds overweight, and has a lot of stuff that sports cars don't need. But then it's a GT car now, so what do I know.

To each his own.

[AndyJWest]

Real men drive Messerschmitts:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Messerschmitt_KR175_01.jpg/1024px-Messerschmitt_KR175_01.jpg

[baronWastelan]

I didn't make this post this to argue with you.

I found the car boring, porky, and not to my liking.

Certainly not as fun as the early cars.

It's easily 500 pounds overweight, and has a lot of stuff that sports cars don't need. But then it's a GT car now, so what do I know.

To each his own.

I've driven 1,000 different kinds of cars, most of which are not to my liking. Should I start a thread for each one of them?

What exactly is the point of you making this post? Are there car dealers in your area advertising lots of 993's for sale? Just curious.

[ElAurens]

It is just a gut feeling I have, and it's not just about the newer 911s. It's all the newer enthusiast cars.

They are just, I guess uninspiring it the right word, to me. I've been around, and involved with sports cars since I started driving, and these cars now just make me yawn, and it has nothing to do with their speed or performance envelope, nor a glut of them on the market, which there certainly is not in my area.

My post was simply prompted by my employer getting the car in question recently, and from putting several hundered miles on it myself.

It is better than his Cayenne though... What a waste of the Porsche nameplate that boat is.

Ah well.

At least my motorcycle is still fun.

[Sternjaeger II]

It is better than his Cayenne though... What a waste of the Porsche nameplate that boat is.

Ah well.

At least my motorcycle is still fun.

..or a Panamera, what an abortion on wheels!!!

[Bewolf]

but then there is the 918, hehe

[raaaid]

well if you have the money

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-D8akp6eikjY/TXkKywQ8aXI/AAAAAAAABIM/yDsPw9GeU3M/2011-lamborghini-diablo-price-3.jpg

now what the cheapest new car with no hood?

i passed the psicological tests

if you really think about im not actually crazy just dare to think without prejudge

[baronWastelan]

I used to drive an MG Midget, the last generation model with 1500cc engine, daily for fun. It had an after-market carberetor, from Italy, a popular replacement for the lousy English carb. Also a sport (loud) exhaust. It was a very light car in spite of being loaded down with both luxuries: a heater and an AM/FM cassette stereo. I logged over 40k miles in it, for fun. Crossed 16 states + Ontario, from Miami to Toronto and back, for fun. So what did it prove, that I'm better than someone who drives a Cayenne? No, it proved I was stupid and lucky, and with a shameful disregard for my own life and the lives of my passengers.

[Sternjaeger II]

I used to drive an MG Midget, the last generation model with 1500cc engine, daily for fun. It had an after-market carberetor, from Italy, a popular replacement for the lousy English carb. Also a sport (loud) exhaust. It was a very light car in spite of being loaded down with both luxuries: a heater and an AM/FM cassette stereo. I logged over 40k miles in it, for fun. Crossed 16 states + Ontario, from Miami to Toronto and back, for fun. So what did it prove, that I'm better than someone who drives a Cayenne? No, it proved I was stupid and lucky, and with a shameful disregard for my own life and the lives of my passengers.

I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say? :confused:

[raaaid]

oh i understand that mentality

on my 25 after a bicicle i got a ktm 500 cc with 50 horsepower

then i got a suzuki gs500 and destroyed my leg

thats like i put my life in risk but not others just for fun

then once you realize you may get paralized reason kicks in

my next bike will be a yamaha special 250cc

having fun playing but playing safe

unless theres a cheap car with no hood

anyone?

[Bewolf]

I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say? :confused:

That having a car that is fun to drive and has "soul" does not nessecarily make it a better car.

[Sternjaeger II]

oh i understand that mentality

on my 25 after a bicicle i got a ktm 500 cc with 50 horsepower

then i got a suzuki gs500 and destroyed my leg

thats like i put my life in risk but not others just for fun

then once you realize you may get paralized reason kicks in

my next bike will be a yamaha special 250cc

having fun playing but playing safe

unless theres a cheap car with no hood

anyone?

there you go, a cheap Porsche with no roof

http://www.ljw.me.uk/porsche/shunt.jpg

[Sternjaeger II]

That having a car that is fun to drive and has "soul" does not nessecarily make it a better car.

Ah I see, so Baron Wasteland, you mean that the MG was not safe while Porsches are uh? You say that to Ryan Dunn..

[raaaid]

well gotta wonder what did you google to post that

[Sternjaeger II]

well gotta wonder what did you google to post that

what you asked for: "car with no roof" :mrgreen:

[raaaid]

haha i learnt from playing poker i should distrust less :)

[ElAurens]

Oh that poor 356.

I love the 356 models. I'd dearly like to have an SC Cabrio. I have lots of time in them. My favorite Porsches by far.

But for now, and probably the rest of my life, my TR3 will do nicely.

Fear not Wastlan, if I were ever to build a "track car" it would be a decontented 911 SC.

[baronWastelan]

Ah I see, so Baron Wasteland, you mean that the MG was not safe while Porsches are uh? You say that to Ryan Dunn..

Well, I know you're smart enough to know the answer, but for the benefit of any youngsters reading ... ;)

any gasoline powered car can be driven to speeds beyond the capabilities of the driver and road surface. Active safety technology, such as Traction Control and All-Wheel-Drive, can entice some drivers to push the car beyond the drivers' capabilities. But the passive safety technology built into modern cars will prevent injury and death to those drivers who obey the traffic laws and get crashed into by other negligent drivers. For a driver who can't control himself to drive within the posted speed limit, an MG may have a slight lower chance of fatality to its driver since he will often get frightened before things get out of hand.

In the case of a mid-90's car like the Porsche 911 Carrera, you have the benefit of the passive safety of airbags, crumple zones, plastic fuel tank well protected deep within the front compartment, without the enticements of the electronic active safety features like Traction Control, PSM, PASM, SPASM (?) or whatever other acronyms they have these days. :rolleyes:

I guess what I'm trying to explain is the concept of tailoring the features of the car to fit the characteristics of the driver, in order to maximise chances of survival.

[335th_GRAthos]

there you go, a cheap Porsche with no roof

Hmmm.. from the red stains on the passenger seat I deduct that the photographer had HighGore=ON ?



@ElAurens sorry, I did not understand your initial post. You meant a 911 production year 1996 (model 993) or a 911 production year 2005 (model 996) ?

Either way, I will tend to agree to your comments.
But things changed radically with the 911S since the 997 generation II (year 2010)


~S~

[ElAurens]

I've not been in the latest generation of water cooled 911s yet.

One of our customers had the original version. It was, in a word, forgettable. Hence, he now drives a Boxter S, a car that I do indeed lust after.

About the best "modern" car I have driven, in terms of still having those subjective ideals of soul and passion, was the Ferrari 550 Maranello. It belonged to one of our vintage racing services customers so I had occaision to drive it. In his words it was "reliable as a Honda", but it still made the blood race and the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.
Of course it should for what it costs.

The only problem with it was that it put your driver's licensce in great peril at all times...

:grin:

[Sternjaeger II]

Hmmm.. from the red stains on the passenger seat I deduct that the photographer had HighGore=ON ?


naaaah, according to the website, there were no fatalities or injuries, it's more likely that's a brown stain on the seat ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

Hence, he now drives a Boxter S, a car that I do indeed lust after.

About the best "modern" car I have driven, in terms of still having those subjective ideals of soul and passion, was the Ferrari 550 Maranello. It belonged to one of our vintage racing services customers so I had occaision to drive it. In his words it was "reliable as a Honda", but it still made the blood race and the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.
Of course it should for what it costs.

The only problem with it was that it put your driver's licensce in great peril at all times...

:grin:

The Cockster, really? I'd rather suggest you tried the Cayman S, that is by far the most well balanced Porsche on the road.

And yes, a 550 is really a great investment if you have the money. They'll be fantastic classics. I'd still opt for a GTO or GTB myself though, sexier looks..

[ElAurens]

I go back and forth between the Boxster and the Cayman.

I really like open cars. It's why I still drive my TR3 after 30 years of ownership.

I know the Cayman is the better car.

[Sternjaeger II]

Well, I know you're smart enough to know the answer, but for the benefit of any youngsters reading ... ;)

any gasoline powered car can be driven to speeds beyond the capabilities of the driver and road surface. Active safety technology, such as Traction Control and All-Wheel-Drive, can entice some drivers to push the car beyond the drivers' capabilities. But the passive safety technology built into modern cars will prevent injury and death to those drivers who obey the traffic laws and get crashed into by other negligent drivers. For a driver who can't control himself to drive within the posted speed limit, an MG may have a slight lower chance of fatality to its driver since he will often get frightened before things get out of hand.

In the case of a mid-90's car like the Porsche 911 Carrera, you have the benefit of the passive safety of airbags, crumple zones, plastic fuel tank well protected deep within the front compartment, without the enticements of the electronic active safety features like Traction Control, PSM, PASM, SPASM (?) or whatever other acronyms they have these days. :rolleyes:

I guess what I'm trying to explain is the concept of tailoring the features of the car to fit the characteristics of the driver, in order to maximise chances of survival.

I'm sorry, but this is a bit preposterous..

Let's get one thing clear: Porsche makes cars that are not meant for the road, Volkswagen does. Do you really need a road car that does 140mph? I don't think so. Besides, you're always gonna find someone with a car bigger than yours, most of the SUVs out there have the bumper at the height of my head in my car, how's that supposed to be safe?

It's the illusion of safety that they're selling you, truth is that you can kill yourself (or get killed) both with an MG and a Porsche.

[Sternjaeger II]

I go back and forth between the Boxster and the Cayman.

I really like open cars. It's why I still drive my TR3 after 30 years of ownership.

I know the Cayman is the better car.

yeah, but it's hard to find cabrios that perform well too.

[Sven]

I've always wanted a Lancia Delta Integrale while all my other friends wanted BMW M3's :grin:

Never driven a Porsche but I have driven a Ferrari in Italy, that was a blast I tell you :grin:

[335th_GRAthos]

Let's get one thing clear: Porsche makes cars that are not meant for the road, Volkswagen does. Do you really need a road car that does 140mph?

Hmmm... I will say a careful Doch! (German expression for "YES THEY DO!")
The 911s are of the few cars where you have >385ps but you can jump in on a cold morning and drive 5min to the nearest bakery to buy your donats, without ruining your engine.
I can not think of another GT car where you can do this without ruining your engine on the long run.
And it is true, even ElAurens' grandmother could drive it to the bakery every day (mine I would certainly not let her in on mine) it can be an incredibly civilised car if you wanted to and a mad bull the next moment.
True you do not need a road car that does 140mph. Hold on a sec though, why do I see so many 500cc and 1000cc motorbikes on the roads???? (No thanks Raaid, I do not need an answer ;))
It is not the end speed, it is the acceleration, forward and lateral (taking a turn at 2+ g is a freaky experience). For those without the reflexes for those 1000cc superbikes, this is the closest alternative.
In terms of safety, there is "passive" and "active" safety. Passive safety is rather limited where you crash into a 2,2ton SUV when your 911 is only 1,4tons (sorry for the metrics).
But the active safety margin of these cars is amazing. Provided you have your eyes on the road (which few people do) you will probably never find yourself in a situation where you can not get away from either by braking, avoiding, or accelerating out of it, in a 911.

Anyway, I do not work for Porsche, nor am I a salesman, nor do I own one (because where I live now, the passive safety of an SUV is better than the active of a 911 :() but I happen to be one of those potential customers who happened to test the old 911s and said the same things as ElAurens said, then tested the new ones (10years later) and almost went straight to buy one.
@ElAurens: You need to get a new customer (or a new boss; whatever easier :D) with a 911S model 997 generationII (the 2010 production) or 991 (2011 production) and it will radicaly change yor opinion; the new double-clutch 7-speed gearboxes and the new motor management made different cars out of them...

Now time to go back to my IL2...

~S~

[raaaid]

well actually posting to my request of a no hood car a no roof porsche covered in slight gore is alitle gore

but the thing is that i dont think theres no one bad

i like everybody even hitler i would have a beer with him and realize he was good but lost his inner child

thats why ill almost always trust even knowing im wrong

in the subcouncious even baddies do the right thing

hitler having all the chances made himself sure he lost, oh the subcouncious

its like why the baddies enjoy the goddies winning in movies?"back to the future ii"

myself i prefer a bike to a car since i rather risk my life than others :)

[baronWastelan]

.
http://imaletyoufinish.com/pics/img/Hilarious-Baby-gif.gif

[raaaid]

hey how do you know my face when i saw the car?

but sorry guys for the ot



any sport car with a plane like canopy?

[baronWastelan]

BTW, before you let your grandmother drive your 993 to the bakery, make sure she watches this owners' instructional video from the factory first. In my case, I have personally gone through great pains to explain all these anachronisms to my co-pilot of the past 6 years, and even now, after all these years, every time she goes off on her own (about 4 -5 times a year), I will get a phone call from her with a question about some button or gauge or light -- without fail, every time! :lol: It is decidedly not a "user friendly" car for girls. :confused::twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVm09RAU6KQ

[Sternjaeger II]

A misanthropic Porsche guy.. Lol dude you're a clichè ;)

[baronWastelan]

Nobody ever mistakes me for a Rump Ranger ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

Nobody ever mistakes me for a Rump Ranger ;)

Badum-tish! :mrgreen:

Or maybe we need pre-recorded sitcom laughs? ;)

[skouras]

raaaid, with your "medical conditions" I don't think any of us want to think about you driving!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[swiss]

On the flip side I had the '63 E-Type from the collection out on the road today and it made me feel like I was driving. Really driving. I could feel the rear end thinking about stepping out just a little as that wonderful 3.8 litre six oozed torque through the contact patches coming out of a tight right hander. Tiny correction in the steering and squeeze the go pedal a bit more, clip the apex, squirt out and select fourth...

Ah... Glorious...


It had an aftermarket tranny then, I guess.

[ATAG_Bliss]

User friendly ..... Nah :)

http://vimeo.com/5558243

[baronWastelan]

http://www.insideline.com/features/the-100-greatest-cars-of-all-time.html

And the answer is:

911: The everyday sports car. A motorsports legend. A timeless silhouette. Still the benchmark. The greatest Porsche of all time.

Panamera's on the list too. No Triumphs, tho. :eek:

[ATAG_Bliss]

And if you notice #1 Nuff said :D

1. 1932 Ford V8: The first performance car a working man could afford, with looks swiped straight from Duesenberg. This car has defined American automotive culture for nearly 80 years.

[ElAurens]

It had an aftermarket tranny then, I guess.

Umm... no.

[ssagurit4]

If this car (1932 Ford V8) would be here in my country I will not think twice to buy it....hoping and dreaming.

[BlitzPig_fox]

It had an aftermarket tranny then, I guess.

I'm thinking not true. I owned a '70 E-Type with a 4.2 6 banger. Musta bumped my head just before I sold it.

You hit the nail on the head with newer performance cars El. They are more for comfort than performance. Though if you can take the cabin heat the Viper still delivers.

A friend of mine owns a Challenge Stradale and that ride will tatoo a smile on yer face for days.

I took a brand new '04 Z06, stroked and forged the block then put a positive displacement blower with methanol injection to cool the charge. Its no Porche but when you hit the loud pedal not many P cars round here can stay with it.

[baronWastelan]

I'm thinking not true. I owned a '70 E-Type with a 4.2 6 banger. Musta bumped my head just before I sold it.

You hit the nail on the head with newer performance cars El. They are more for comfort than performance. Though if you can take the cabin heat the Viper still delivers.

A friend of mine owns a Challenge Stradale and that ride will tatoo a smile on yer face for days.

I took a brand new '04 Z06, stroked and forged the block then put a positive displacement blower with methanol injection to cool the charge. Its no Porche but when you hit the loud pedal not many P cars round here can stay with it.

A 1996 Porsche is "newer"??? Well, if you're comparing to a 2004 Chevy .... :lol:

I am really enjoying this. Please do continue! :grin:

[mazex]

Yes, it's fast.

Yes, it has fantastic brakes.

Yes, it is incredibly well balanced.

Yes, it's so easy to drive a grandmother could take it to the grocery store.

And yes, it's totally boring. Too refined. Too civilized. Too much like everycar...

The older 911s (like the 356 before them) were all tingly and alive. The steering wheel directly connected your finger tips to the contact patch of the tire and pavement. That beautiful boxer six in the back was always at your ear. The feel and sound of machinery working in harmony was in your face. It demanded that you pay attention.

It was visceral.

It was Steve McQueen blasting through Arnage at LeMans.

It was a real sports car.


These newer 911s are too refined, too good, too removed from the act of driving.

They are Roger Penske on his way to a board meeting.

:-|

I have driven the Carrera GT quite a lot and I think that's the Porsche you should look for... That car makes you think twice before flooring at the end of a fast corner - no doubt about it... And no hush button for the engine, thank god for that! ;)

I do agree that modern sports cars are getting too good. The latest Ferrari's like the 430 and the 458 are really like computer games to drive if you don't go beyond sport on the Manettino. Took a spin with an 18 year old nephew in a 430 that had gotten his driving license three weeks earlier and no problems for him driving it without any problems at all.

Mazex

[baronWastelan]

Imagine how embarrassing it is for me to drive a 993 for 6+ years, without realizing that Porsche has a time machine since 1993, and used it to travel to 2005, where they copied all the computer technology, and went back to 1993 and put the stolen 2005 technology into the 993. I am so ashamed to have been driving this car for over 50,000 miles. :oops:

[Rattlehead]

Imagine how embarrassing it is for me to drive a 993 for 6+ years, without realizing that Porsche has a time machine since 1993, and used it to travel to 2005, where they copied all the computer technology, and went back to 1993 and put the stolen 2005 technology into the 993. I am so ashamed to have been driving this car for over 50,000 miles. :oops:

;)

Most of us are content with run-of-the-mill family hatchbacks and sedans. Dude, you drive a Porsche.

[BlitzPig_fox]

A 1996 Porsche is "newer"??? Well, if you're comparing to a 2004 Chevy .... :lol:

I am really enjoying this. Please do continue! :grin:

I love the look on a P car driver when one gets spanked. It is usually "I missed a gear" or "your old heap was not delivered from the factory like that". But the best part is how they usually avoid making eye contact afterwards.

We look for the P cars and exotics going to the East End and give them a run for their money when we can. I've climbed in thru the window a few times in some rides before if you know what I mean. Some here might but it is prolly lost on you. They took the feel outta the P car, that is the point I was making.

So to continue I was speaking of a '70 jag compared to that '96 tub. Do I need to 'splain the age difference.

Its all good m8

[baronWastelan]

I love the look on a P car driver when one gets spanked. It is usually "I missed a gear" or "your old heap was not delivered from the factory like that". But the best part is how they usually avoid making eye contact afterwards.

We look for the P cars and exotics going to the East End and give them a run for their money when we can. I've climbed in thru the window a few times in some rides before if you know what I mean. Some here might but it is prolly lost on you. They took the feel outta the P car, that is the point I was making.

So to continue I was speaking of a '70 jag compared to that '96 tub. Do I need to 'splain the age difference.

Its all good m8

Yes, now I understand. I encounter the type once in a while, always on the streets whilst I'm running my errands around town, the guys with something to prove, who look for the p-cars and other exotics.

Whilst the "P car" drivers go to the track when they want to exercise their mounts, the ones who go on internet forums to brag about "the look on a P car driver" are speeding on the public roads, showing how "cool" they are endangering bystanders who are simply trying to get from point A to point B. Meanwhile, the P car driver they "spank" (me ? I guess?) has no idea there was a speed competition to begin with, and would never be stupid enough to attempt such a competition on a public road.

Anyway, I know that this is all just Internet Banter. Perhaps "going to the East End" is the name of a closed road course? It doesn't sound like it. Perhaps you could elaborate. I'm a bit of a stickler about road safety, and hope that none of the younger readers of this forum are encouraged to compete on the public roads. There are plenty of tracks in Europe, the UK and USA that host drivers education events for street cars and drivers of all levels. Please keep your "spankings" to the forums and tracks!!