If Land > Refuel, Re-arm, Repair is implemented...How long should each stage take?

[hc_wolf]

There are two types of Dynamic Campaign missions been created by skillful scripters here.

Dynamic Missions (One ongoing game loaded on a server where battle is played out over days with land sea and air units) Dynamic war.

Dynamic Campaigns ( Missions loaded in order, but you can land refuel etc.. and keep going till you complete objectives, win medels etc) a little more linear and scripted then the above.

We are only going to get true dynamic and long....long playtime in a single session or ongoing war over a few days if we can implement Land > Refuel, Re-arm (maybe repair = longer wait) and takeoff. Maybe Prison also..


But if this is implemented...

How long should each take?
How long are you willing to sit there online waiting for the above..?

5 mins, 10 mins 20 mins?? :confused:

[ElAurens]

No one I know is going to wait 5 minutes to have his virtual steed made ready again, much less 20 minutes.

I've played missions in modded IL2 with Rearm, Refuel, Repair and just sitting there waiting 30 seconds for a refuel felt like an eternity.

Just my opinion of course.

*EDIT*

Offliners may find these long waits more appealing, but for online? No way I'd waste what little time I have to play sitting there waiting for some arbitrary length of time to pass. "Refly" is still the best option.

[salmo]

I find the Zuti MDS (Il2-1946) defaults to be satisfactory.

Repair engine = 90s
Repair flaps = 30s
Repair cockpit = 30s
Repair 1 x MG/cannon = 3s
Repair 1 x F/O tank = 20s
Repair cables = 15s
Refuel = 3s/kg

[MadBlaster]

i think I read in the last ZUTI doc that there was a way to base it on proximity. so if you park your plane right next to the ammo dump, it rearms faster. If you park far away, it takes longer. thought that was pretty cool feature.

[Mr Greezy]

I find the Zuti MDS (Il2-1946) defaults to be statisfactory.

Repair engine = 90s
Repair flaps = 30s
Repair cockpit = 30s
Repair 1 x MG/cannon = 3s
Repair 1 x F/O tank = 20s
Repair cables = 15s
Refuel = 3s/kg


This seems like it would be perfect. You want to make it quicker than just exiting and getting in a new plane and warming it up.

[Codex]

This is an interesting topic.

You could model it off a particular battle. I can't recall the pilots name, but I recall the pilots story where he flew an FW-190F8, I think it might even be "White 1" that is being restored but I'm not 100% sure on that. He mentioned that he flew about 5 to 10 sorties a day during a very heated battle on the Russian front because his airfield was so close to the action.

So using a 10 sortie day. You fly off, bomb your targets, land and re-arm (refuel) if needed, and go round again, your looking at 50min / sortie, so you could say 10 min for all the groundwork operations between each sortie.

Just a thought.

[salmo]

i think I read in the last ZUTI doc that there was a way to base it on proximity. so if you park your plane right next to the ammo dump, it rearms faster. If you park far away, it takes longer. thought that was pretty cool feature.

... or with the script that spawns ambulance/fuel/fire trucks after you land, you could start refueling/repair after the troops arrive at your plane.

[JG53Harti]

But if this is implemented...

How long should each take?
How long are you willing to sit there online waiting for the above..?

5 mins, 10 mins 20 mins?? :confused:

like in real life ? ;) :)

10 - 15 min depending on what should be done.

[PeterPanPan]

See my interview with Spitfire rigger John Milne ...

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=26512


Me: So how long did it take to refuel a Spitfire.

JM: About 10 minutes. The Spitfire only had 2 small tanks.

PPP

[JG53Harti]

Yes, just refueling. But you need also new ammo and sometimes the aircraft must be repaired ;)

[Gerbil Maximus]

I find the Zuti MDS (Il2-1946) defaults to be satisfactory.

Repair engine = 90s
Repair flaps = 30s
Repair cockpit = 30s
Repair 1 x MG/cannon = 3s
Repair 1 x F/O tank = 20s
Repair cables = 15s
Refuel = 3s/kg

+1 i think it would be great.

[robtek]

I think 5 to 10 min would be ok, time to get something to drink or visit the john.

It would also help to cool down after a intense fight, delegating planning back to the brain :D

Then it would also make sense to conserve ones engine, to make faults less likeable.

Of course refly then can only happen, when the plane is lost on or over own territory.

If the pilot is mia, kia or pow, the statistics must be set to zero.

My thoughts.

[salmo]

I think 5 to 10 min would be ok, time to get something to drink or visit the john.....

You've obviously never tried to RRR with the enemy over the airfield :-P IMHO 5-10min is way too long. RRR times should be a token representation of the delay required to RRR. In my experience, most players want to RRR as quick as possible & get back into the air. However, if you'r silly enough to get your engine shot out, then should pay the penalty (wait for it to be repaired).

[Sven]

Zuti times were just perfect IMO.

But what about the use of it? Why wouldn't you just respawn in a server? Only in a '1-airframe' situation this could be of use. In online campaigns it's also not so useful, because the battle could last forever if the plane keeps surviving?

[JG53Frankyboy]

i also dont understand it ?!
even more as i have the proplem of waiting in mind in the old IL2 COOP online war times....

if its about personal stats - the scripters most propably are able to 'give' points depending on the condition of your aircraft after landing - engine, structure.
If needed in future online events for 'stat' maniacs :D

[SNAFU]

I could only consider it useful, for airfields in which you cannnot spawn, but use as frontline fields for refuelling and rearming - no repair. (Provided the right vehicles are around - as in DCS BlackShark). There I would consider 15-20minutes as realistic. This will still be better than flying 30mins back to your base and I usually have 1hour to 1,5hours flight time if I go for realistic missions, so I usually do only one sortie an evening.

For the usuall take-off, shoot, die, repeat - fun, I don´t see the point in landing anyway? :rolleyes:

[Zoom2136]

I don't quite understand the fascination with the RRR function, especially if non-realistic times are used. What's the advantage of this over simply "Refly?" (even though there's not an actual "Refly" button anymore). Is this just a holdover from 1946 for you guys?

Well it could prevent this: You are engage by a bandit near your field. He damages your plane to a point that you makes you combat inafective... BUT you manage to land, get a fresh plane, take off again and nail is ass as he his nursing his overheated engine back home. Sounds familiar?

My vote is make it a server side option with modifiable times. This way it is flexible. Longer times for hardcore server, shorter times for more arcadish types.

my 2c

[csThor]

Still makes no sense to me, Zoom, but then I strive for realism as opposed to the gangbang fetish of most players. I'm with Franky and robtek, although SNAFU's idea is actually brilliant, too. This way one could, for example, designate home bases and forward landing strips in certain situations.

[Bokononist]

I don't quite understand the fascination with the RRR function, especially if non-realistic times are used. What's the advantage of this over simply "Refly?" (even though there's not an actual "Refly" button anymore). Is this just a holdover from 1946 for you guys?



For me it is about immersion, I'd much rather sort my plane out 'in game' rather than esc to the menu and create again, breaks the immersion for me. No real biggie but it would be nice to be able to take off again in the same plane, especially after a successful sortie.

[JG52Krupi]

I could only consider it useful, for airfields in which you cannnot spawn, but use as frontline fields for refuelling and rearming - no repair. (Provided the right vehicles are around - as in DCS BlackShark). There I would consider 15-20minutes as realistic. This will still be better than flying 30mins back to your base and I usually have 1hour to 1,5hours flight time if I go for realistic missions, so I usually do only one sortie an evening.

For the usuall take-off, shoot, die, repeat - fun, I don´t see the point in landing anyway? :rolleyes:

Perfect, someone mentioned this before and it made perfect sense.

[robtek]

You've obviously never tried to RRR with the enemy over the airfield :-P IMHO 5-10min is way too long. RRR times should be a token representation of the delay required to RRR. In my experience, most players want to RRR as quick as possible & get back into the air. However, if you'r silly enough to get your engine shot out, then should pay the penalty (wait for it to be repaired).

Well, there is the difference in the gaming-style here,

starting again to get a fleeing opponent is waaay too arcadish for me. (for ZOOM)

(Btw, that is not 1946, overheated here is usually a forced landing!)

If i have survived a dogfight, damaged or shot down a enemy and then have brought my plane home, thats success for me.

Having then flown my crate in a way, that it is still fit to fight after SMALL repairs, refuel and rearm, that is the dot on the i.

Of course that works only when, i.e. the statistics are reset with a refly.

[Chivas]

RRR has great immersion potential, far greater than hitting refly, and far more realistic. It will also probably be an option, that it you don't like it don't use it. As far as times are concerned this can easily be adjustable to suit anyone or any server. No flight sim has animated ground crew yet, and I believe this is the feature that COD will be implementing at some point in the future.

[salmo]

I don't quite understand the fascination with the RRR function, especially if non-realistic times are used. What's the advantage of this over simply "Refly?" (even though there's not an actual "Refly" button anymore). Is this just a holdover from 1946 for you guys?

The facination comes when (as Sven says), you're limited to a certain number of aircraft, forcing you to try to save your airframe. I build Zuti MDS missions with RRR with a small number of better performing planes (say 6 spitfire IIa's) and when they are all gone you are left with an unlimited number of lesser planes (say spitfire Mk1's).

Without such restrictions, some players just fly until they are shot down disregarding the need to save their life or their aircraft (very un-RL like). Forcing RRR on players changes the way players play the mission. I like RRR for most mission types ! But there is no reason why you can't have both worlds, missions with & without RRR.

[Sven]

The facination comes when (as Sven says), you're limited to a certain number of aircraft, forcing you to try to save your airframe. I build Zuti MDS missions with RRR with a small number of better performing planes (say 6 spitfire IIa's) and when they are all gone you are left with an unlimited number of lesser planes (say spitfire Mk1's).

Without such restrictions, some players just fly until they are shot down disregarding the need to save their life or their aircraft (very un-RL like). Forcing RRR on players changes the way players play the mission. I like RRR for most mission types ! But there is no reason why you can't have both worlds, missions with & without RRR.

This is genius. If the player wants to keep his aircraft he has to protect and fight for it, (some planes can respawn more times then others ) this would create some good dogfights with more true to life aspects I would guess. On servers which have this system RRR will be awesome.

[robtek]

My idea is to motivate the players to fly in a more realistic way.

Caring for their virtual life first, their steed second and then, with a little space, to have success against the enemy.

Of course, the overwhelming majority will join the obligatory, endless Spit vs. 109 furball, but maybe there are enough people who find that also boring.

[hc_wolf]

Can I just say.. This is the longest running thread I have raised... AWESOME!

But it is fantastic to get everyones views on the topic while we wait for the next patch.

I really hope we can get RRR in and then I can get to implementing into my dynamic online missions so you can use the same plane and up your scores.

I think if you have RRR then you need to also have a deduction in points to punnish people for the following:

-Exiting out of planes and just re-spawning (not bailing out)
-Getting a fresh plane via respawn if you damage one on take-off or at airfield or in a radius.
-Not bailing out during dogfight
- Maybe strafing enemy spawn points.

I look forward to seeing all this and everyone elses suggestions. You will really be able to have long server missions where England v Germany.

[Chivas]

There should be RRR at any base that has the equipment and personel to do so. The aircraft didn't carry enough ammo to do much damage to a bomber formation. You could attack them on there way into the target, land rearm, and attack them again on their egress from their target area. The time it takes for the RRR should be user selectable so it could suit most peoples simming enjoyment. Of course On-line this would be set by the server.

I believe the developers are working on an animated RRR, which will be finished and implemented at some point in the future, after bugs and other features are fixed.

[salmo]

There should be RRR at any base that has the equipment and personel to do so. The aircraft didn't carry enough ammo to do much damage to a bomber formation. You could attack them on there way into the target, land rearm, and attack them again on their egress from their target area. The time it takes for the RRR should be user selectable so it could suit most peoples simming enjoyment. Of course On-line this would be set by the server.

I believe the developers are working on an animated RRR, which will be finished and implemented at some point in the future, after bugs and other features are fixed.

I think Zuti has it about right in IL2-1946. He's setup two options. (1) RRR irrespective of base setup objects & (2) RRR only if certain objects are present at an airfield. For example, ...

Refuel - you can only refuel if there are fuel drums of fuel tanks present at an airfield. The closer you park to the object, the faster the refuel rate. If the enemy destroys those objects, you lose the ability to refuel at that base.
Rearm - As above for ammo box objects
Repair - As above for the workshop building object.

He's even taken RRR further, by allowing mission builders to specify the amount of fuel, ammo & engines available at each object. Again, when you've used up all avalable fuel/ammo/engines you lose the ability to RRR. Here's the kicker though. Mission builders can also designate truck convoy objects or ships to carry specific amounts of fuel/ammo/engine parts & when a ship arrives in port or a truck convoy arrives at an airbase, the RRR objects at the base are replenished.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Implementing wait times: I think best way to empty a server ;)

[Skoshi Tiger]

Yes, just refueling. But you need also new ammo and sometimes the aircraft must be repaired ;)

On spitfires, when they started to use the canvas strips to feed the colt brownings through the lower pannels apparently they could rearm the guns in 10 minutes.

Damage and repair is a completely different matter. Either the damage would be superficial and as pilot in command you'ld need to decide if it was worth your life taking off or time to get a new plane.

In a realistic senario hopefully it would be possible for pilots to be penalised for not following the taxi ways when heading from the runway to the rearming point. Extra damage to undercarrage, radio going u/s due to all the bumps, sights getting knocked out of alignment etc!

Cheers!

[He111]

This is sounding great, hope there's a dynamic campagin for offline players.

BTW, I've found when a plane lands @ a runway that has been bombed, the plane stops near the crater, waits for about 5 seconds then vanishes and reappears @ the parking spot. Not sure how that's going to effect your scripts? would be better if the plane avoids the craters (veteran pilot) or loses it's undercarriage (novice / average)

.

[Redroach]

like in real life ? ;) :)

10 - 15 min depending on what should be done.

If you do that, everybody will just hop into a new plane. To make it appealing for realism-geeks like you and me, you've got to combine it with some limited supply, e.g.: You join the server, you always get your desired steed, BUT after that, there's some very limited plane supply (filled up by x planes every hour or so), along with a server culture that frowns upon easy-plane-hopping (And some server-re-join time rule of like 5 mins. to not be able to get your starting condition over and over again)

[salmo]

..... in a realistic senario hopefully it would be possible for pilots to be penalised for not following the taxi ways when heading from the runway to the rearming point. Extra damage to undercarrage, radio going u/s due to all the bumps, sights getting knocked out of alignment etc! Cheers!

Again, using Zuti MDS (IL2-1946) you could specify the "friction factor" for a home base area. It would be useful in COD if we had a "friction object" to lay down beside runways/taxiways so that pilots had to be careeful to stick to markd areas or risk tipping the plane on its nose :) I might add, some sort of flexible land-friction method would be needed when COD eventually moves to the Pacific theatre, as runways/taxiways in jungle areas often has marsden plates to keep planes out of the mud, and taxi off the marsden plates & the pane would sink to the wheel axles in mud.

[David198502]

i find the general idea of RRR very good and it would add to immersion.
...and i dont believe that everybody would just create a new flight to avoid the waiting times.but if they want, they still could do so.i for example find myself flying way more carefully since cliffs of dover.only because of the size of the map.i dont want to cross the channel for 15min and then get shot down after the first contact because i was too low for example.so my sorties usually last 45-60 minutes average..when i then get my plane back to france and land safely, i usually light a cigarette and type some words into the chatbar to thank my oponents for the fight.this takes at least 5minutes until i create a new flight.i certainly wouldnt mind, but would enjoy to see ground groups coming to RRR my plane to make it ready for take off again.this way also kill markings could be added automatically on your paintscheme(of course depending whether and how much enemies you shot down).

[Gourmand]

are there some modder who consider this feature?
are there some difficulty to transfert the RRR 46 zuti to RRR Cod ?

Why this feature doesn't exist yet ? :sad::sad::sad:
why dev doesn't implement officially this feature ? whyyyyyyyy ?

[Trooper117]

Mate..Are you mad? Don't you think the devs have got their hands completely full at the moment just sorting out the current problems?

[adonys]

actually, the only thing needed from the devs for this would be the export of the set method for some currently existing functions which have only the get one implemented.

shouldn't be a really big deal..

[Skoshi Tiger]

Again, using Zuti MDS (IL2-1946) you could specify the "friction factor" for a home base area. It would be useful in COD if we had a "friction object" to lay down beside runways/taxiways so that pilots had to be careeful to stick to markd areas or risk tipping the plane on its nose :) I might add, some sort of flexible land-friction method would be needed when COD eventually moves to the Pacific theatre, as runways/taxiways in jungle areas often has marsden plates to keep planes out of the mud, and taxi off the marsden plates & the pane would sink to the wheel axles in mud.

That sounds good!


Now if I have to wait 10 minutes to refuel and rearm I think I'd like the option of manning a Bofors gun to keep the the vulchers away!

Cheers!

[senseispcc]

At least half an hour...

[ElAurens]

Half an hour?

Better be prepared to watch your server de-populate in a hurry.

When we discuss these things on forums, everyone jumps on the total immersion band wagon, but in practice, servers set up with these kinds of things are unpopulated wastelands of bandwidth after the first landings or shoot downs happen.

Still it should be something that is available for offline use, but a lot further down the road in the development of the sim.

There are far more pressing needs.

Far more pressing.