Post made by Jason at Sim HQ

[Tree_UK]

For those that were/are still under the belief that CLOD was financed by Ubisoft then read this below, especially Chivas who as been on my case about this for a long time.


Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason

I'm sorry, but I need to say something because your comments are not correct.

1.) Luthier is a long-time friend of mine and you are smearing him with no proof or knowledge of what really happened that caused the less than stellar release of CLOD. Oleg didn't hand Luthier anything. Luthier was asked by 1C to try to finish the project after Oleg was, depending who you talk to, relieved of duty by 1C or he quit 1C. You make the call. Luthier is making the best of a bad situation and he is a good guy and from what I can tell a good manager. My point is you can't blame him for the release or bad decisions that were forced upon him by others. He was given 12 months to correct 6 years of bad decisions made by others. A good analogy is blaming me for every decision made regarding ROF before my company took over. Coming from someone who had to take over a not so great situation I know what he is going through.

2.) Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for there work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Again, see my comments about Oleg's departure. Only Duke Nukem' can have a never ending dev cycle and hell even that got released eventually. Bringing Oleg back isn't going to solve anything. 1C loves when you blame Ubi. 1C was the day to day manager and owners of IL-2 franchise, not to the mention the primary funding source so why aren't they held accountable? Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.

I'm not going to say anymore, but what you've said about Luthier isn't fair to him. There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.

Jason

[pupo162]

that broke my buble.

im trully sad now :(

[winny]

That's interesting, I thought that OM might have been the problem for a while.



I just got the feeling that he was too set in his ways. The market moved on and I always found Oleg's 'my way or the highway' attitude a little bit lofty.

Luthier has seemed much more 'current' and aware of what's expected in 2011.

I got the feeling from some of his posts that he was trying to drag the sim into the 21st century, he knows what the people here want more than anyone.
I think he wants the same.

If it's true then I feel for him, there's nothing worse than having to clean up someone else's s**t.

I hope he succeeds.

[Redroach]

I never blamed Ubi for that in the first place, except maybe for the decision to add steam into the mix. It takes a very limited understanding of the IT business to not blame programming errors on the programming people...

Besides that: Luthier and his team may have limited responsibility on things up to and including release, but what about the time from release until now?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for there work and produce a product?
Interesting..

If what Jason says is true.. than the only hope for CoD getting finished is if they switch to a RoF model of pay for planes (additional content).. In that I don't see ubi tossing anymore $ down this hole without some way of recouping their investment.. Based on the not so stellar release of CoD thus far I 'assume' they have not got close to recouping the 8million

[6BL Bird-Dog]

Thanks for re-posting this information from Jason on this Forum Tree.
If 1C had allowed the COD situation to be posted some time ago and its reasons for releasing the game prematurely, there no doubt would have been a lot more understanding given to the problems the development team were facing .
IC should post an apology here,not only to its customers but to the COD team for the grief they have caused them.
I dont` expect they have the Balls to though.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Reminds me Apple in 1985 all this drama...

Much talking and little info. I like the sim potential and good game engine and content, but all this "business" crap is really anoying...

Just optimize more the graphics engine, solve remaining bugs and give us a decent sound engine, stable MP and after work in new titles and the dynamic weather.

And give us DECENT week updates, without lies and crap.

Simple as that. Be professionals. Be men, not children.

[Chivas]

For those that were/are still under the belief that CLOD was financed by Ubisoft then read this below, especially Chivas who as been on my case about this for a long time.


Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason

I'm sorry, but I need to say something because your comments are not correct.

1.) Luthier is a long-time friend of mine and you are smearing him with no proof or knowledge of what really happened that caused the less than stellar release of CLOD. Oleg didn't hand Luthier anything. Luthier was asked by 1C to try to finish the project after Oleg was, depending who you talk to, relieved of duty by 1C or he quit 1C. You make the call. Luthier is making the best of a bad situation and he is a good guy and from what I can tell a good manager. My point is you can't blame him for the release or bad decisions that were forced upon him by others. He was given 12 months to correct 6 years of bad decisions made by others. A good analogy is blaming me for every decision made regarding ROF before my company took over. Coming from someone who had to take over a not so great situation I know what he is going through.

2.) Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for there work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Again, see my comments about Oleg's departure. Only Duke Nukem' can have a never ending dev cycle and hell even that got released eventually. Bringing Oleg back isn't going to solve anything. 1C loves when you blame Ubi. 1C was the day to day manager and owners of IL-2 franchise, not to the mention the primary funding source so why aren't they held accountable? Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.

I'm not going to say anymore, but what you've said about Luthier isn't fair to him. There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.

Jason

IC and UBISOFT are both publishers and probably funders of the development. I see nothing there that says UBISOFT wasn't funding the project aswell, as a matter of fact, the way its worded it could almost be interrupted as UBI funded the 8 million and IC weren't accountable. Many people confuse IC's publishing business and IC's development business. Maybe Jason can comment.

[NedLynch]

In a strange way it is reasuring. From my impression on the RoF forum Jason seems to be someone you can believe.....he is also the one getting po'ed real fast about whiner threads, while he knew they were working hard on the sim.

So in a way this is good news if Jason talks so positively about Luthier, give the team time and they will make this into a stellar sim.

What is that about the money?.....hmmm, sure my poll was just a stupid hoax, right?

After so many years and then less than stellar sales you just have to have an inkling that they can't be doing so great moneywise.

Nah, not going to say it, was going to say something about people trying to run this sim on their 4 year old compaq and then complain, but I won't.

Let's hope Luthier and the team keep going on strong.

[Skoshi Tiger]

So does this mean that Tree is going to stop calling Luthier a liar and throwing dirt on every thing he or the development team does?

Thanks Jason!

[NedLynch]

So does this mean that Tree is going to stop calling Luthier a liar and throwing dirt on every thing he or the development team does?

Thanks Jason!

You think?

[Insuber]

When Luthier will see his business reputation in danger, he or some good friend of him will spit out all the truth. At least, his truth.

[Ploughman]

Seemed pretty clear to me for some time that Oleg was either pushed or shoved and that Luthier, bless him, took on the rest and a release schedule. I think it's also clear that he's guilty of 'massaging' the product's capabilities since then, but I also think Luthier's fundamentally got the sim's best interests in mind. He's just got alot on his plate at the moment and is, perhaps, not seeing the woods of the trees when it comes to customer relations.

I haven't played CloD in weeks, but I dare say I will when it's patched.

[MadBlaster]

Brilliant. Now 1C will fire Luthier for discussing and disclosing confidential company information to a competing developer and then having that information subsquently posted all over the internet. Maybe 1C, you need to hire Santa Claus to get you out of this CLoDy mess? In any event, it’s time to consult your lawyers.

[icarus]

Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for there work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.

There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.

Jason

It seems Ubi is not so much to blame and it is mainly the fault of 1C and Oleg Maddox that this game was released in such bad shape. Luthier has been brought in to clean up the mess. Lets hope he can.

[kalimba]

When Luthier will see his business reputation in danger, he or some good friend of him will spit out all the truth. At least, his truth.

Hum...Very slippery situation here....IF indeed Luthier was called in by 1C to complete the game, he must have had some kind of NDA contract.
And I dont think it is HIS business.Its a job he has to do .He has a budget and a time frame. His reputation is not at stake as long as he does a good job within those parameters... Giving us some news or updates has no impact on him either. And whatever we say in forums has no impact at all on his professionnal level. Its a small world out there...Look whos doing the sound FX now for CLOD.
What we really dont know is who is setting the quality level and to what expectations...Who will decide when the game is " completed" .
What is the quality level they are aiming at ....Who pulls the strings ?

I dont expect any news soon. IMHO next move will be the release of the final
"original" version. Somebody:confused: will decide if the support will go on to the point of integrating those clouds, weather f/x and so on that Oleg showed us...years ago !

Salute !

[fearlessfrog]

Sensible post, +1 to his comments.

Hope Luthier follows Jason and 777's lead and are able to polish this product as well as 777 did for RoF.

Edit: Where was this posted originally?

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3376003/Re_Commentary_IL_2_Sturmovik_R.html#Post3376003

[Ze-Jamz]

Hmm I thought this was the case anyway??! the only thing I read differently to my thought was Oleg maybe being asked to leave..

Nothing really changes, I do honestly think this sim will eventually go down the DLC route and tbh I'd be up for that, anything to keep it going and to keep the funds coming in.

Alot of sims and games have tried and tested that route and it works so why wouldn't you do it?

Again my gripe right now is the lack of communication but that's easy for me to say and I do also understand why they choose not to.

I think the patch isn't far away and will fix a lot of the problem were seeing performance, Gfx and sound wise...content should come in the form of DLC, it's the only way IMO to keep this sim progressing, and obviously with the help of the modders which then brings me to the VAC situation....that is a must have! and it needs to work well before it tears the community in half as it did with IL2 when mods arrived.

[Blackdog_kt]

Seeing someone who took over another project that was down in the dumps during release and turned it around speak highly of Luthier, it pretty much solidifies my belief that Luthier is in it for the long haul and has the skills needed.

It also gives us something nice to quote for the future. It seems to me that in an attempt to take a jab at Chivas in their old argument about the whole Ubisoft matter, Tree has given everyone else who would wish to confront his speculation all the ammunition they'll ever need for the foreseeable future.

Pretty unexpected i should say, i'm genuinely confused. :confused:

[albx]

So, when Oleg was present at the lunch of CoD in Moscow, he was there but he already left 1C. I think we need to give Ilya our apologizes and give him our best support to go ahead with the project, we need just to turn the page.

[Tree_UK]

Well it proves that when I posted Oleg had gone (during development) that I was right on target, It also shows of the deception all were involved in to make us believe that Oleg was still captain of the ship, even down to telling us that Oleg's son was really ill so Oleg couldn't post. It proves that Ubi were not financing the project from the word go (lol @ Chivas). Other than that, everything is the same, we still need communication.

[furbs]

Seeing someone who took over another project that was down in the dumps during release and turned it around speak highly of Luthier, it pretty much solidifies my belief that Luthier is in it for the long haul and has the skills needed.

It also gives us something nice to quote for the future. It seems to me that in an attempt to take a jab at Chivas in their old argument about the whole Ubisoft matter, Tree has given everyone else who would wish to confront his speculation all the ammunition they'll ever need for the foreseeable future.

Pretty unexpected i should say, i'm genuinely confused. :confused:

That's a very strange post from a mod i must say.
Luthier took over a year before the release of CLOD and since then CLOD has still been a mess.
We may know more about it now but it doesn't change what's happened, the development decisions have still been questionable IMO and the release was handled very badly and pretty shambolic.
Since the release the communication has been terrible and the patches so far have been mere fluffing with the core of the sim is still unchanged and buggy as hell.
Music update anyone?

Plus this new info doesn't change what Tree was saying at all, in fact it proves quite alot of it was spot on. We were being fobbed off alot of the time, Oleg was still posting updates and showing his face at shows but its clear now it was just keep people believing he was still the man in charge.

The reason behide it may now be more open but it doesn't change anything.

Luthier is trying his best im sure, but im still not convinced.

[andrea78]

8 million???

With just 1 milliony - in Italy (my country) - you can hire 10 experienced researcher for at least 5 years of works! :grin:

I'm joking (ehm... not to much!;)), but my impression is that budget was enough for a complete game...

[Redroach]

So, when Oleg was present at the lunch of CoD in Moscow, he was there but he already left 1C. I think we need to give Ilya our apologizes and give him our best support to go ahead with the project, we need just to turn the page.

what the...? Are you guys so easy to reassure?
To quote myself:

Luthier and his team may have limited responsibility on things up to and including release, but what about the time from release until now?

[Tree_UK]

IC and UBISOFT are both publishers and probably funders of the development. I see nothing there that says UBISOFT wasn't funding the project aswell, as a matter of fact, the way its worded it could almost be interrupted as UBI funded the 8 million and IC weren't accountable. Many people confuse IC's publishing business and IC's development business. Maybe Jason can comment.


C'mon on mate, how much more proof do you need, you have belittled me all this time and you were wrong, I dont expect an apology but it would show your made of the right stuff.

[vicinity]

It proves that Ubi were not financing the project from the word go (lol @ Chivas). Other than that, everything is the same, we still need communication.Uh, no it doesn't. I read that as "people are blaming Ubi but they put $8 million into it and allowed 7 years of development". Now, it's possible i'm wrong but it's not the concrete evidence you seem to think it is.

[Tree_UK]

Uh, no it doesn't. I read that as "people are blaming Ubi but they put $8 million into it and allowed 7 years of development". Now, it's possible i'm wrong but it's not the concrete evidence you seem to think it is.

Ubi were the western publisher, they came on board late, after Oleg's annoucment in 2010. We all aleady knew that 1C was the Russian publisher, Ubi wouldn't of spent $8 million in one year would they??

[furbs]

8 mill and they "couldn't afford the costs of getting real sound samples"

[vicinity]

Oh yeah, I forgot about context!

[Tree_UK]

8 mill and they "couldn't afford the costs of getting real sound samples"

Yes I remember that Furbs, not enough money in the pot to get proper sound. Unbelievable.

[Havoc04]

WHO CARES!!!!! Jesus. Conspiracy theory's, Facts, so bloody well WHAT! Why do people have to go digging this crap up? Haven't you got better things to do?

Go spend time with the missus, go for a walk etc? And by posting this crap, what do you think it is going to do? Bring the patch quicker? Or better yet A HUGE APOLOGY TO THE COMMUNITY? Like that will happen LMFAO! Head outta the ass i say. And move along.

For once I'd love to come to these forums with out all this sludge crap posts.

[Mysticpuma]

Hi chaps, not sure what the problem was there Havoc, if anything Tree looks like he is happy to have found truth behind his critisim from someone on the 'inside' track?

Anyway, if what Jason says is correct I think Luthier really does need some room to work on bringing the Sim through the Flak it has taken.

Although I don't want to see any paid for content until the Simulation they released is at-least near perfect (what everyone initially pad for), if Luthier does take a lesson from Jason and his community interaction it would be a major step forward in calming much criticism.

I think there is a chance of a little sympathy for him when you see what he has had to do (fixing 6-years of mis-direction in 1-year), but seriously, I am as frustrated about the realease as many others, but for now I'll wait and see what happens with the next patch and see if it looks like the direction of patching under Luthier's captaincy appears to be heading in the right direction? Let's face it...it really can't get much worse!


Cheers, MP

[Blackdog_kt]

That's a very strange post from a mod i must say.
Luthier took over a year before the release of CLOD and since then CLOD has still been a mess.
We may know more about it now but it doesn't change what's happened, the development decisions have still been questionable IMO and the release was handled very badly and pretty shambolic.
Since the release the communication has been terrible and the patches so far have been mere fluffing with the core of the sim is still unchanged and buggy as hell.
Music update anyone?

Plus this new info doesn't change what Tree was saying at all, in fact it proves quite alot of it was spot on. We were being fobbed off alot of the time, Oleg was still posting updates and showing his face at shows but its clear now it was just keep people believing he was still the man in charge.

The reason behide it may now be more open but it doesn't change anything.

Luthier is trying his best im sure, but im still not convinced.

Well, i'll just admit that's me somewhat venting off a bit of steam in a mild manner there, i had just gone reading through and moderating a bunch of threads before seeing this one.

On the other hand, being a moderator doesn't exclude someone from being a regular poster too and expressing personal opinion, that's why colored text is used when moderating to distinguish between the two, when i'm just typing like this i'm simply taking part in the discussion like everyone else. I truly didn't expect that kind of post from the OP.

In any case don't worry, it's my "once per month/every few weeks" venting mechanism :-P

Other than that i don't really care for the score keeping, it just happened to bring forth a bit of interesting information from another source.

[albx]

what the...? Are you guys so easy to reassure?
To quote myself:

What you want we do? crucify him? We can't give Ilya all the problems CoD have, I hope he is doing his best to fix it, but, if we want accuse him for something then is the poor communication with his customers. Probably he found so many problems when he picked the project that had so small resources to fix it, they had to release CoD in this beta state to make cash or close it. What you prefered? a beta CoD or nothing at all? and right now I believe Jason is also helping him giving his best devs (see who is redoing the sounds). I'm not a patient guy, I really want a patch right now that fix not all but most of the problems, but I know it is not possible. Again, what is missing here is the communication, lack of info from them.

P.S.
I'm still a whiner, not a fanboy... :)

[furbs]

Well, i'll just admit that's me somewhat venting off a bit of steam in a mild manner there, i had just gone reading through and moderating a bunch of threads before seeing this one.

On the other hand, being a moderator doesn't exclude someone from being a regular poster too and expressing personal opinion, that's why colored text is used when moderating to distinguish between the two, when i'm just typing like this i'm simply taking part in the discussion like everyone else. I truly didn't expect that kind of post from the OP.

In any case don't worry, it's my "once per month/every few weeks" venting mechanism :-P

Other than that i don't really care for the score keeping, it just happened to bring forth a bit of interesting information from another source.

Fair enough :)

Im hoping the next patch will sort out COD and bring it up to a release condition sim. then its a clean slate from me.

[zapatista]

Well it proves that ............ that I was right on target,.

even a dead clock is right twice each day, after your 1700 posts here deliberately sprouting negative crap for years the odds are you eventually would say something that per chance would have been partially right !! obviously that doesnt validate all the other nonsense you posted here for years, or did you think it magically would and you'r now lilly white ? its also somewhat disturbing to see you only perk up when something negative is being said, it seems to be the only thing you ever feed on and rejoice about

It also shows of the deception all were involved in to make us believe that Oleg was still captain of the ship, even down to telling us that Oleg's son was really ill so Oleg couldn't post.

no tree it doesnt, you'r again jumping to all kinds of conclusions and sprouting nonsense about facts you dont comprehend and new information you dont seem able to interpret.

jason's post has to be seen for what it is, he is somebody who (since recently) does have a commercial interest in the CoD project and he is in that context minimizing blame for luthier while dancing on oleg's grave and shifting all the blame to oleg (while oleg isnt present to defend himself, great sign of character there jason)

what is new (to me at least, and i have been out of the loop a bit while waiting for a decent fix/update to start using CoD), is the 8 million dollar CoD project funding figure over the 7 years. the rest of what jason says is entirely his spin on facts that are incomplete and open to interpretation.

for example, jason refers to luthier being handed the unfinished project 1 yr before release, which takes us to the point in mid 2009 when oleg was still posting here and him stating he had a fixed release date of "the anniversary of BoB" (which would have meant november 2010, and oleg 6 months before that date realizing it simply could not be done). the project then slipped pasted this nov/dec 2010 date and was then released early in 2011 (you must remember some of those dates, its when you kept weaseling out of puting your money where your mouth was ).

so when ubi (and/or 1c) put their foot down and said "no more delays, you have 1 yr and then its out the door", how did oleg react ? that is the real question. (its a minor issue whether oleg by then was still 5 days per week in the office managing it, or had taken on an additional part time positions with some other company as a consultant, since he by then was only macro managing the CoD project itself).

given olegs very good track record (in game creation and project management) he likely would have known that this forced early release date wasnt realistic, so did he tell them "either i do it right and i need more time", or if they tried to then force his hand "you do it without me" ? likely some years will go by before we find out, but that is much more likely then jason's recent spin story.

another piece of the puzzle we are missing is what exactly happened mid development that caused the lost 2 or 3 years which became the Achilles heel in this whole CoD project ? time wise this is the period we know oleg fired some people, or some left on their own (taking part of the code ?) and the RoF project was started. are all those facts linked, its all speculation at this stage, but those missing years caused the whole delay mess that landed us where we are now.

secondly, with luthier being oleg's trusted sidekick during il2 development (since pacific fighters or even earlier ?) and with the 2 being close friends, AND with luthier being called away from his own project (korea) to help finish CoD a couple of years ago....... with oleg suddenly leaving, luthier would have been about the only logical person the project could have been transferred to (inside their existing team). now the question that arises is, knowing the various good skills and contributions luthier has made to the il2 series, did/does luthier have the project management skills to pull of what oleg knew could not be done to oleg's exacting levels of quality ?

luthier took on an unthankful task to try and finish it, and tried to do so under very difficult circumstances no doubt, but, and how can i say this gently.... he didn not success, its a giant mess.

so nothing new has been provided in that simhq thread that lowers my opinion of Oleg, if anything it only lowers my opinion of jason with his obvious spinning to direct attention away from his own commercial interests (without giving solid facts that can be verified with the people that matter). And no that doesn’t make Jason the anti-christ either, it just means I take what he posts with a decent serve of salt and I see it for what it is

i do wish luthier well in trying to finish the project (he is our only hope, failing oleg coming back to pitch in), and whatever positive input that can be given him should be provided, but it doesnt remove our frustration (as customers and long term fans who had very high hopes for this project)

[Rattlehead]

What has happened has happened...no use in dwelling on the past. The future of Clod is the only thing I'm interested in.

[Tree_UK]

even a dead clock is right twice each day, after your 1700 posts here deliberately sprouting negative crap for years the odds are you eventually would say something that per chance would have been partially right !! obviously that doesnt validate all the other nonsense you posted here for years, or did you think it magically would and you'r now lilly white ? its also somewhat disturbing to see you only perk up when something negative is being said, it seems to be the only thing you ever feed on and rejoice about



no tree it doesnt, you'r again jumping to all kinds of conclusions and sprouting nonsense about facts you dont comprehend and new information you dont seem able to interpret.

jason's post has to be seen for what it is, he is somebody who (since recently) does have a commercial interest in the CoD project and he is in that context minimizing blame for luthier while dancing on oleg's grave and shifting all the blame to oleg (while oleg isnt present to defend himself, great sign of character there jason)

what is new (to me at least, and i have been out of the loop a bit while waiting for a decent fix/update to start using CoD), is the 8 million dollar CoD project funding figure over the 7 years. the rest of what jason says is entirely his spin on facts that are incomplete and open to interpretation.

for example, jason refers to luthier being handed the unfinished project 1 yr before release, which takes us to the point in mid 2009 when oleg was still posting here and him stating he had a fixed release date of "the anniversary of BoB" (which would have meant november 2010, and oleg 6 months before that date realizing it simply could not be done). the project then slipped pasted this nov/dec 2010 date and was then released early in 2011 (you must remember some of those dates, its when you kept weaseling out of puting your money where your mouth was ).

so when ubi (and/or 1c) put their foot down and said "no more delays, you have 1 yr and then its out the door", how did oleg react ? that is the real question. (its a minor issue whether oleg by then was still 5 days per week in the office managing it, or had taken on an additional part time positions with some other company as a consultant, since he by then was only macro managing the CoD project itself).

given olegs very good track record (in game creation and project management) he likely would have known that this forced early release date wasnt realistic, so did he tell them "either i do it right and i need more time", or if they tried to then force his hand "you do it without me" ? likely some years will go by before we find out, but that is much more likely then jason's recent spin story.

another piece of the puzzle we are missing is what exactly happened mid development that caused the lost 2 or 3 years which became the Achilles heel in this whole CoD project ? time wise this is the period we know oleg fired some people, or some left on their own (taking part of the code ?) and the RoF project was started. are all those facts linked, its all speculation at this stage, but those missing years caused the whole delay mess that landed us where we are now.

secondly, with luthier being oleg's trusted sidekick during il2 development (since pacific fighters or even earlier ?) and with the 2 being close friends, AND with luthier being called away from his own project (korea) to help finish CoD a couple of years ago....... with oleg suddenly leaving, luthier would have been about the only logical person the project could have been transferred to (inside their existing team). now the question that arises is, knowing the various good skills and contributions luthier has made to the il2 series, did/does luthier have the project management skills to pull of what oleg knew could not be done to oleg's exacting levels of quality ?

luthier took on an unthankful task to try and finish it, and tried to do so under very difficult circumstances no doubt, but, and how can i say this gently.... he didn not success, its a giant mess.

so nothing new has been provided in that simhq thread that lowers my opinion of Oleg, if anything it only lowers my opinion of jason with his obvious spinning to direct attention away from his own commercial interests (without giving solid facts that can be verified with the people that matter). And no that doesn’t make Jason the anti-christ either, it just means I take what he posts with a decent serve of salt and I see it for what it is

i do wish luthier well in trying to finish the project (he is our only hope, failing oleg coming back to pitch in), and whatever positive input that can be given him should be provided, but it doesnt remove our frustration (as customers and long term fans who had very high hopes for this project)

Not had time to read all that Bollocks yet Zap, but have you actually purchased the game yet, and how did those shorts taste, you know the ones you were going to eat when you lost that bet with me?? :grin::grin:


have a nice day buddy.

[150GCT_Veltro]

We should quit with CoD and this forum till Christmas, and give him a chance to complete the game, or at least the beta.

Asking for a new patch every week doesn't help Luthier and this community. CoD need more than some patches.

[icarus]

We should quit with CoD and this forum till Christmas, and give him a chance to complete the game, or at least the beta.

Asking for a new patch every week doesn't help Luthier and this community. CoD need more than some patches.

Perhaps, but it would be nice to get a weekly paragraph about how things are going. Thats not too much to ask for pre-paid customers, I don't think. And yes I have shelved it until such time it is fixed to something that resembles a release candidate software.

[winny]

Not had time to read all that Bollocks yet Zap, but have you actually purchased the game yet, and how did those shorts taste, you know the ones you were going to eat when you lost that bet with me?? :grin::grin:


have a nice day buddy.

Obnoxious.

Here we go with the I told you so. Pathetic, backhanded, self justification.

[zapatista]

Not had time to read all that Bollocks yet Zap, but have you actually purchased the game yet, and how did those shorts taste, you know the ones you were going to eat when you lost that bet with me?? :grin::grin:

lol, liar liar, pants on fire

as you well remember, after you repeatedly posting negative pessimistic release date forecasts for years, you made the mistake of actually stating a specific date 1 year into the future, at which point you were called out on it by me to put your money where your mouth was (easy to see, its in the forum records)

you know, thats when your spine turned to jelly, and you slithered away babeling some meaningless banter to try and distract from the fact you couldnt standup when it was time to be counted

even funnier is that you behaved repeatedly in the same manner in this forum, and that the last time you were called out on it your forecast was "not before august 2011"

so save your excrement fixated meaningless banter for your spotty faced chums

ps: maybe bring in one of your alt nicks to make a meaningless post pretending to agree with yourself, some newbies here havnt seen the whole tree-show yet :)

oh, no offence of course, all in good jest, but all true nevertheless

[150GCT_Veltro]

Perhaps, but it would be nice to get a weekly paragraph about how things are going. Thats not too much to ask for pre-paid customers, I don't think. And yes I have shelved it until such time it is fixed to something that resembles a release candidate software.

We all agree about this but ask yourself: why?

Oleg has posted an incredible amount of pics, and people here said "Hoooooo, wonderfull!!!!" ecc. ecc. ecc.. We know it.
The release has been a disaster, and CoD a fiasco because is no more than a bad alpha, full bugged and a placeholder itself. Now, again, we ask for development update. Do we deserve it? No.........to many fanboys here.

[FrostGuru]

With just 1 milliony - in Italy (my country) - you can hire 10 experienced researcher for at least 5 years of works! :grin:

I'm joking (ehm... not to much!;)), but my impression is that budget was enough for a complete game...

8 million is nowadays only a drop on the bucket in the field of game development. Recent game developments have today a budget that compares to low-budget Hollywood productions, means 25-30 millions are a good start.

[Blackdog_kt]

Ok, let me try and defuse this.

The initial post by zapatista has some interesting points, minus the effort of provoking Tree.

It's been a civil thread with some interesting information and speculation that hasn't devolved into a flamewar thus far. Please, let's keep it this way guys.

I know it might be hard for you two to play nice after your past encounters but come on...i wouldn't want to have to move posts to the arguments thread when it's been nice and cozy so far :grin:

Tree: You're on two out of three warnings mate, i know it's the slip of the tongue and use of idioms sometimes but try to contain profanity somewhat, there are minors on the board and people report posts for stuff like that. I talk that way among friends in the bar too, but here's a public forum so i think it best to try and step lightly in certain matters.

Zap: You made a pretty good post giving your side of the story, no need to stir up trouble and reduce your well-put post to flamebait.


I don't want to have to move posts, serve warnings or ban anyone because it's my belief that anyone can contribute something useful if being on the right mindset. Let's just play nice. See, i didn't even break out the red text for this, this is how calm this thread has been thus far :-P

[Skoshi Tiger]

8 million is nowadays only a drop on the bucket in the field of game development. Recent game developments have today a budget that compares to low-budget Hollywood productions, means 25-30 millions are a good start.

$8,000,000 @ $45 would need arround 178,000 copies to be sold. At the Russian price of $14.00 that would be be 570,000 copies. I know UBiSoft was asking about $80AUD for their download.

I wonder how close they are to breaking even?

I got two copies, the collectors edition and in a rush of blood the steam download (Thinking it would get to me quicker- The Collectors edition turned up first so my second copy was passed on to my brother.

[robtek]

We all agree about this but ask yourself: why?

Oleg has posted an incredible amount of pics, and people here said "Hoooooo, wonderfull!!!!" ecc. ecc. ecc.. We know it.
The release has been a disaster, and CoD a fiasco because is no more than a bad alpha, full bugged and a placeholder itself. Now, again, we ask for development update. Do we deserve it? No.........to many fanboys here.

That we don't deserve it has absolutely nothing to do with fanboys, but is correct otherwise!

[Tree_UK]

Ok, let me try and defuse this.

The initial post by zapatista has some interesting points, minus the effort of provoking Tree.

It's been a civil thread with some interesting information and speculation that hasn't devolved into a flamewar thus far. Please, let's keep it this way guys.

I know it might be hard for you two to play nice after your past encounters but come on...i wouldn't want to have to move posts to the arguments thread when it's been nice and cozy so far :grin:

Tree: You're on two out of three warnings mate, i know it's the slip of the tongue and use of idioms sometimes but try to contain profanity somewhat, there are minors on the board and people report posts for stuff like that. I talk that way among friends in the bar too, but here's a public forum so i think it best to try and step lightly in certain matters.

Zap: You made a pretty good post giving your side of the story, no need to stir up trouble and reduce your well-put post to flamebait.


I don't want to have to move posts, serve warnings or ban anyone because it's my belief that anyone can contribute something useful if being on the right mindset. Let's just play nice. See, i didn't even break out the red text for this, this is how calm this thread has been thus far :-P

Fair do's, I apologise for rising to Zap's bait.

[zapatista]

Zap: You made a pretty good post giving your side of the story, no need to stir up trouble and reduce your well-put post to flamebait.

it's a fair cop, guv ! you got my vote :)

seeing the content of some of tree's posts sometimes just awakens the instinct of the toreador walking past the arena

[furbs]

It doesnt really matter now who was right, it makes for a pretty sad state of affairs. All it really leaves me with is "what could of been". :(

[=FI=Scott]

$8 Million.

What can you say. Rock on Oleg.

[Jaws2002]

I have an idea. How about instead of going on and on with this nonsense, we all go online in Syndicate and shoot and blow up stuf?

It feels a lot better to park a 110 behind a Wellington and pound away until it falls to pieces, or bomb some poor sod warming up his Spitfire, and then run like hell with all his budies chewing on your rudder, than throwing all this mud across the forum.
A lot better terapy for all this anger. You at least do something fun with it.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I have an idea. How about instead of going on and on with this nonsense, we all go online in Syndicate and shoot and blow up stuf?

It feels a lot better to park a 110 behind a Wellington and pound away until it falls to pieces, or bomb some poor sod warming up his Spitfire, and then run like hell with all his budies chewing on your rudder, than throwing all this mud across the forum.
A lot better terapy for all this anger. You at least do something fun with it.

+1
Though its changed to ATAG.

Its hard to see what people are complaining about when your warming up your Merlin and the bombs start going off around you.

Cheers!

[pupo162]

I have an idea. How about instead of going on and on with this nonsense, we all go online in Syndicate and shoot and blow up stuf?

It feels a lot better to park a 110 behind a Wellington and pound away until it falls to pieces, or bomb some poor sod warming up his Spitfire, and then run like hell with all his budies chewing on your rudder, than throwing all this mud across the forum.
A lot better terapy for all this anger. You at least do something fun with it.

god idea. But without sound / or trees. cosntant stutter and other problems, i keep my anger therapy to 1946.

good luck

[Ze-Jamz]

Well I've got sound and no stutters and I think Il2 looks like a POS so il be there.. :)

[Igo kyu]

We'll probably never know, but it does all make a horrible sort of sense.

In software it's a tradition that when someone is fired, they are told to clear their desk and leave the premises immediately. If they did that to Oleg, then they would assume, incorrectly I'm sure, that anything he touched, could be a logic bomb. So, any code on Oleg's work computer would be out of bounds.

Which explains the mess, if Oleg and only Oleg was compiling the final builds, then suddenly all of the work is broken up, nobody has a build of the current software, all there is is what other people were working on at the time, and they are bits of a jigsaw puzzle with the body of the puzzle removed.

I suppose it's possible to do that, and still demand that Oleg appear in public to be working for the firm, why I can't really see, but it could be done.

The guy following on would be in a pickle, having to pick up the pieces and try to remake the jigsaw.

It wouldn't be Oleg's fault (except not finishing quick enough that it didn't happen), it wouldn't be Luthier's fault, it would almost not be the money men's fault, except the paranoia that didn't allow Oleg's work to be included.

It is just a guess, however it looks to me like as plausible an explanation for where we are now as we are going to get. :-?

[Baron]

8 mill and they "couldn't afford the costs of getting real sound samples"


Im sorry, but it sounds like u think 8 million during 7 years is a lot?


Its freeking peanuts in this genre (game development).

[Rattlehead]

Im sorry, but it sounds like u think 8 million during 7 years is a lot?


Its freeking peanuts in this genre (game development).

Let's see...some of these figures include marketing and other costs, but to get an idea:

Crysis back in 2008 cost $22 million
Grand Turismo 5 cost around $60 million
Modern Warfare 2 was nearly $50 million
Halo 3 (development cost only) was $30 million
Grand Theft Auto 4 was around $100 million

Yep, $8 million is really not a lot at all.

[Jonk]

Let's see...some of these figures include marketing and other costs, but to get an idea:

Crysis back in 2008 cost $22 million
Grand Turismo 5 cost around $60 million
Modern Warfare 2 was nearly $50 million
Halo 3 (development cost only) was $30 million
Grand Theft Auto 4 was around $100 million

Yep, $8 million is really not a lot at all.

Not sure comparing the budget of blockbuster games to that of IL2 is really a fair shake..... How about we look at the budget of "Deadliest Catch: Alaskan Storm" and compare that.

[Jumo211]

Oleg saying to Medvedev during CloD exhibiton/presenation :
Dmitry , only two weeks !! be sure ! :lol:

Absolutely priceless picture .

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac90/HolyGrail_photos/41d2f663cc00b47079f8.jpg

S! HG :lol:

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Let's see...some of these figures include marketing and other costs, but to get an idea:

Crysis back in 2008 cost $22 million
Grand Turismo 5 cost around $60 million
Modern Warfare 2 was nearly $50 million
Halo 3 (development cost only) was $30 million
Grand Theft Auto 4 was around $100 million

Yep, $8 million is really not a lot at all.
Not sure what this cost comparison is suppose to prove? All I know is this data can be 'looked at' in different ways to prove different things..

As it is, this data can be very misleading..

For example, a bigger software team can do more in less amount of time. So for this data to really be useful you would have to take into account how many worked on it and how long it took to develop those 'games' you listed. Ill bet that none of them took 6 years like CoD has.

Also note that and a lot of those games are spending a lot of money 'creating' worlds that don't exist, the neat thing about WWII flight sims is they only have to worry about 'copying' a world that already exists. ;)

And as you noted marketing is included in those numbers, marketing can be a very big chunk of the pie!

With that in mind, when I look at this data, I see it as 'proof' of how small the flight sim market is in the rest of the gaming world, and not much else.

[pupo162]

Not sure what this cost comparison is suppose to prove? All I know is this data can be 'looked at' in different ways to prove different things..

As it is, this data can be very misleading..

For example, a bigger software team can do more in less amount of time. So for this data to really be useful you would have to take into account how many worked on it and how long it took to develop those 'games' you listed. Ill bet that none of them took 6 years like CoD has.

Also note that and a lot of those games are spending a lot of money 'creating' worlds that don't exist, the neat thing about WWII flight sims is they only have to worry about 'copying' a world that already exists. ;)

And as you noted marketing is included in those numbers, marketing can be a very big chunk of the pie!

With that in mind, when I look at this data, I see it as 'proof' of how small the flight sim market is in the rest of the gaming world, and not much else.


well on the other hand, Cod supossedly has an engine made from scratch. Wich reduces de costs since buying an engine like unreal or frostbite does cost millions of dollars

[skouras]

i believe the next patch
will show us the real mood of development
lets hope that they will be able to finished the project
and make us all happy;-)

[Cyanidix]

Just seems like a bad situation.

I bought this sim on day 1, and have barely touched it since. I knew it would be like that, and the very reason I did it was to finance the current developers in the hope that at some point down the track they could turn this mess into the game it was meant to be.

I've felt sorry for the developers since release. Obviously nobody in their right mind releases a game in such an incomplete state, so there were obviously major factors beyond their control at play.

If you feel bitter about the situation, your purchase or whatnot.... take a chill pill, break for a year, come back and see if the sim is in a state that validates your time then.

[icarus]

........ the dollar rules all!

Agreed. That is the main reason people are scared this won't get fixed. I personally don't care how long it takes, I just want it fixed. The money thing scares me, because there comes a time when the law of diminishing returns calls the shots. Its a race to fix it before that law kicks in.

[Baron]

Not sure what this cost comparison is suppose to prove? All I know is this data can be 'looked at' in different ways to prove different things..

As it is, this data can be very misleading..

For example, a bigger software team can do more in less amount of time. So for this data to really be useful you would have to take into account how many worked on it and how long it took to develop those 'games' you listed. Ill bet that none of them took 6 years like CoD has.

Also note that and a lot of those games are spending a lot of money 'creating' worlds that don't exist, the neat thing about WWII flight sims is they only have to worry about 'copying' a world that already exists. ;)




Well, BF III only been at it for 5 years (and counting).

As for "creating a world that already exists", as far as i know creating for ex a desert with a painted, static background couldn't be that much of a chore for a massive staff with a budget in the hundreds of millions.

My point? Maby people should think just for a sec what's being created with a budget that wouldn`t even unlock the office door to the bigger development teams. Its true they sell a lot more copies, but in the end they develop a game to, in equal time but with a much bigger budget. Does it mean it looks a hundred million times better? No it doesnt. Does it mean the CoD team is taking way to much time getting the game finished, with a shoe string budget? No it doesnt. I would go as far as saying u would be hard pressed to find a genre (flight sim) thats more complicated in terms of physics, DM etc etc. Looking at it that way id say its pretty amazing what they can achieve for a "meesly" 8 million. (if that is in fact the true budget). Something tells me RoF is/was in a simillar situation so im not just talking about CoD here.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Like I said.. this data can be 'looked at' in different ways to prove different things..

The trick is to realise your just guessing at it and that your guess is not proof

[Chivas]

Well it proves that when I posted Oleg had gone (during development) that I was right on target, It also shows of the deception all were involved in to make us believe that Oleg was still captain of the ship, even down to telling us that Oleg's son was really ill so Oleg couldn't post. It proves that Ubi were not financing the project from the word go (lol @ Chivas). Other than that, everything is the same, we still need communication.

How does Oleg leaving have anything to do with UBISOFT?

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I don't want to join into this useless debate who was responsible of which development decision leading to the situation we have now. It won't help.

Clod is still in a mess for whatever reasons but these reasons I could not care less. What I care about is to know if all parties involved in the development of the game will continue to support the game and the further development as I hope that in one year or so it will be fixed and we will enjoy an outstanding simulation (hoping that the dev team won't water down the sim aspect in the hope that this outbalances the lacks in game engine in the eyes of the common customer).

I hope that they stick to the quality I expect from them after IL2 1946 and that they continue to improve the game with this in mind.

If we all have a little patience knowing that a flight sim is in no way comparable to a mass market ego shooter and we show that support from the publisher will pay them in the end I am in good hope.

So please think twice before you go on bashing the dev team and ask yourself if it really will help your cause.

[Chivas]

C'mon on mate, how much more proof do you need, you have belittled me all this time and you were wrong, I dont expect an apology but it would show your made of the right stuff.

Proof, there is no proof, for any of your statements. Ubisoft was in on COD from the beginning, and is still the publisher. I'm sure IC publishing didn't fund 8 million without considerable investment from UBISOFT.

[rkirk77]

I think the moral of the story is "Think twice before you take people's money and release an incomplete game".

I would have been gald to have waited 1 more year for a COMPLETE game that had most of the major bugs worked out of it and was ready to go, versus what we have currently. At the same time, we can't undo what has already been done, so we do what we've been doing since the beginning.. We wait and continue to stand behind the team and it's on-going quest to deliver the best WWII Flight Sim..

[Tvrdi]

It so f*in sad....

[skouras]

I think the moral of the story is "Think twice before you take people's money and release an incomplete game".

I would have been gald to have waited 1 more year for a COMPLETE game that had most of the major bugs worked out of it and was ready to go, versus what we have currently. At the same time, we can't undo what has already been done, so we do what we've been doing since the beginning.. We wait and continue to stand behind the team and it's on-going quest to deliver the best WWII Flight Sim..

second to that

[icarus]

It so f*in sad....

+100%

Protecting this game with full blinders on like it is some kind of religion. So pathetic. I want it to be fixed as much as the next person, but I'm not going to go into denial over it. :rolleyes:

[Rather peeved]

Whatever the history, it would be nice to have some communication and clarification about what is going on NOW as opposed to two to three years back.

The random nature of updates from Luthier at the moment only serves to increase the uncertainty. and posts of youtube vids of kids playing banjos - while funny for about two seconds - don't help.

It would be nice for Luthier to make a good honest post then stick around a bit to answer questions. try and build a bit of a dialogue with the fans.

At the moment we are getting a post every now and then about what will happen - then more often than not those things don't happen. it just feeds the whole vibe the project is in chaos.

Jason at 777 has the right idea. He's constantly posting over at SimHq. he's worked very hard at building his relationship with his community and it's paid off.

[Feathered_IV]

Perhaps Oleg did indeed quit, rather than being sacked.
I'm not sure how 1c could have forced him to leave his own company, unless they have bought controlling shares in MG. Does anyone know if this is the case?

[Theshark888]

+100%

Protecting this game with full blinders on like it is some kind of religion. So pathetic. I want it to be fixed as much as the next person, but I'm not going to go into denial over it. :rolleyes:

+1

You got it. Looks like Oleg screwed up bigtime and possibly lied about a sick son. Not very cool, but maybe this is how things are done in Russia????:confused:

One more point; Over $1 million a year for a staff of how many; 6-10, in Eastern Europe???? Seems like good financing to me. It's probably even worse since the game was 2-3 years late;)

[trashcanman]

$8,000,000 @ $45 would need arround 178,000 copies to be sold. At the Russian price of $14.00 that would be be 570,000 copies. I know UBiSoft was asking about $80AUD for their download.

I wonder how close they are to breaking even?

I got two copies, the collectors edition and in a rush of blood the steam download (Thinking it would get to me quicker- The Collectors edition turned up first so my second copy was passed on to my brother.

Please accept my apologies for using your post Skoshi Tiger as an example of the child like innocence on this forum, and please note I am a huge fan of IL-2 and any other flight sim.

Return on Investment (ROI) is generated by profit.
A game sold @ $45 by a distributor (UBI,1C, Steam, JustFlight ... etc etc ..) does not mean that the developer and \ or investor gets all of that money.
They get a share of the profit of that revenue.
Therefore the investor(s) will break even after the profit has met their costs.

However, businesses also apply a discounted cash flow analysis to investments to reflect the relative performance of the investment.
For example, if you had $1million 7 years ago and put it into an investment account that guaranteed x% interest, what would that be worth now?

Software development is a business and that means that money talks ... imho I will be amazed if CloD generates an ROI that means that the investors will stay on board ..

I hope I am wrong.

S!

[Wolf_Rider]

so when ubi (and/or 1c) put their foot down and said "no more delays, you have 1 yr and then its out the door", how did oleg react ? that is the real question. (its a minor issue whether oleg by then was still 5 days per week in the office managing it, or had taken on an additional part time positions with some other company as a consultant, since he by then was only macro managing the CoD project itself).

given olegs very good track record (in game creation and project management) he likely would have known that this forced early release date wasnt realistic, so did he tell them "either i do it right and i need more time", or if they tried to then force his hand "you do it without me" ? likely some years will go by before we find out, but that is much more likely then jason's recent spin story.

another piece of the puzzle we are missing is what exactly happened mid development that caused the lost 2 or 3 years which became the Achilles heel in this whole CoD project ? time wise this is the period we know oleg fired some people, or some left on their own (taking part of the code ?) and the RoF project was started. are all those facts linked, its all speculation at this stage, but those missing years caused the whole delay mess that landed us where we are now.




I tend to agree... an ultimatum made and a go ahead do it without me then

[Skoshi Tiger]

Please accept my apologies for using your post Skoshi Tiger as an example of the child like innocence on this forum, and please note I am a huge fan of IL-2 and any other flight sim.

Return on Investment (ROI) is generated by profit.
A game sold @ $45 by a distributor (UBI,1C, Steam, JustFlight ... etc etc ..) does not mean that the developer and \ or investor gets all of that money.
They get a share of the profit of that revenue.
Therefore the investor(s) will break even after the profit has met their costs.

However, businesses also apply a discounted cash flow analysis to investments to reflect the relative performance of the investment.
For example, if you had $1million 7 years ago and put it into an investment account that guaranteed x% interest, what would that be worth now?

Software development is a business and that means that money talks ... imho I will be amazed if CloD generates an ROI that means that the investors will stay on board ..

I hope I am wrong.

S!

That's quite Ok! My statement meant to be as simplistic as possible.

If the companies don't make a profit then development stops. Simple as that.

What we have is, on many peoples systems, a product that has some outstanding features.

Unfortunately other people have some serious issues running the program. If development stopped now we ALL loose out.

Investors, developers, customers, everyone. In our niche market we cant afford too many failures or investment in the genre will disappear.

In my opinion everyone should be doing their best to show support for the developers.

Cheers!

[ZaltysZ]

another piece of the puzzle we are missing is what exactly happened mid development that caused the lost 2 or 3 years which became the Achilles heel in this whole CoD project ? time wise this is the period we know oleg fired some people, or some left on their own (taking part of the code ?) and the RoF project was started. are all those facts linked, its all speculation at this stage, but those missing years caused the whole delay mess that landed us where we are now.

At the beginning BoB was further developed from IL2 and new features were built on top of it. However, someone thought it would be great idea to abandon Java (in which IL2 was written) and OpenGL. It might turn out it was indeed a great idea (in the long run), but usually such changes (revolution instead of evolution) mess whole project badly in the beginning, especially if you have small team and there were/are staff changes. That probably slowed development by 1-2 years at least.

[mazex]

For those that were/are still under the belief that CLOD was financed by Ubisoft then read this below, especially Chivas who as been on my case about this for a long time.


Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason

I'm sorry, but I need to say something because your comments are not correct.

1.) Luthier is a long-time friend of mine and you are smearing him with no proof or knowledge of what really happened that caused the less than stellar release of CLOD. Oleg didn't hand Luthier anything. Luthier was asked by 1C to try to finish the project after Oleg was, depending who you talk to, relieved of duty by 1C or he quit 1C. You make the call. Luthier is making the best of a bad situation and he is a good guy and from what I can tell a good manager. My point is you can't blame him for the release or bad decisions that were forced upon him by others. He was given 12 months to correct 6 years of bad decisions made by others. A good analogy is blaming me for every decision made regarding ROF before my company took over. Coming from someone who had to take over a not so great situation I know what he is going through.

2.) Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for there work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Again, see my comments about Oleg's departure. Only Duke Nukem' can have a never ending dev cycle and hell even that got released eventually. Bringing Oleg back isn't going to solve anything. 1C loves when you blame Ubi. 1C was the day to day manager and owners of IL-2 franchise, not to the mention the primary funding source so why aren't they held accountable? Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.

I'm not going to say anymore, but what you've said about Luthier isn't fair to him. There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.

Jason

Anyone that was surprised by the information that Jason shared really have to learn to read between the lines ;) Of course it was 1C that pushed the game on the market after getting tired of financing the project for years...

/mazex

[GF_Mastiff]

Well maybe when 777 studio puts out their WWII fighter sim, then we will see.
I give up on 1C and getting this IL2 sturmovik Cliffs Of Dover version off the ground. Maybe if in 18 months, it might look and be as good as Rise Of Flight.

until then see y'all next year around Christmas time is what I'm going to estimate.

So I'm sticking to IL2 1946 Forgotten battles, and the new mods improvements.

[tintifaxl]

... However, someone thought it would be great idea to abandon Java (in which IL2 was written) and OpenGL. ...


It was just the GUI/Menus etc. that were written in Java, the game engine itself was in C(++). I think they took the same approach with Clod, although they exchanged Java for C#.

You're completely right about OpenGL.

[Tree_UK]

Anyone that was surprised by the information that Jason shared really have to learn to read between the lines ;) Of course it was 1C that pushed the game on the market after getting tired of financing the project for years...

/mazex

+100, thats the way mosts sensible people see it, Ubi took a lot of blame but like Jason says the blame was unwarranted. 1C financed the project not UBI.

[Tree_UK]

Proof, there is no proof, for any of your statements. Ubisoft was in on COD from the beginning, and is still the publisher. I'm sure IC publishing didn't fund 8 million without considerable investment from UBISOFT.

Give it up now Chivas, lets move on, its not doing your reputation anygood by clinging on to this outdated opinion.

[klem]

Its all good fat chewing. Conspiracy, counter conspiracy etc etc.

If, as some suggest, key people left 1C and created RoF with their knowledge and experience it would explain what many see as an inexplicable hole in CoD and its development. Inexplicable because 1C had so much experience and did such a good job on IL-2. Its as though a raft of knowledge and ability suddenly went missing or possibly actual data/coding could not be understood and is now being replaced. How could the sounds for instance be so naff after all they learned in IL-2? How could FMs and cockpits not have been tested? 1C have been so much better than that in the past. Am I the only one that thinks the pre-releases seemed better than COD itself or was it a master stroke of sleight of hand?

Why did those guys leave (if they did)? Frustration? Quick buck? Who knows?

Its all speculation.

The thing that matters is what is happening to CoD now. The next patch should tell us how they are coping.

[Rattlehead]

Not sure comparing the budget of blockbuster games to that of IL2 is really a fair shake..... How about we look at the budget of "Deadliest Catch: Alaskan Storm" and compare that.

Clod is regularly compared to blockbusters to make a point, mostly regarding development time and it's relative lack of polish.
But if people want to pull numbers for any other game, that's fine by me.

[Rattlehead]

Not sure what this cost comparison is suppose to prove? All I know is this data can be 'looked at' in different ways to prove different things..

As it is, this data can be very misleading..

For example, a bigger software team can do more in less amount of time. So for this data to really be useful you would have to take into account how many worked on it and how long it took to develop those 'games' you listed. Ill bet that none of them took 6 years like CoD has.

Also note that and a lot of those games are spending a lot of money 'creating' worlds that don't exist, the neat thing about WWII flight sims is they only have to worry about 'copying' a world that already exists. ;)
And as you noted marketing is included in those numbers, marketing can be a very big chunk of the pie!

With that in mind, when I look at this data, I see it as 'proof' of how small the flight sim market is in the rest of the gaming world, and not much else.

Yeah, in many ways I agree with you. As you say, bigger teams equals less develoment time. (Usually.) And yeah, those are numbers I just got from a google search. I don't know how accurate they are, but it's the best I could do.

Where I disagree is the bolded part. Developers making up their own universe have a much easier time of it than developers faithfully recreating something.
Think of all the research that goes into a simulator, not only visual, but what goes on on the inside, like CEM, bullet physics, flight models etc.

The devs for say, Halo have none of that to worry about. They can make it up as they go, and don't have to worry about it being realistic.

[Corto]

So, when Oleg was present at the lunch of CoD in Moscow, he was there but he already left 1C. I think we need to give Ilya our apologizes and give him our best support to go ahead with the project, we need just to turn the page.

I gave him my best support like others here: my money.....
And I dont apologize for nothing...

It is the turn for 1C now not for the community

[Rattlehead]

well on the other hand, Cod supossedly has an engine made from scratch. Wich reduces de costs since buying an engine like unreal or frostbite does cost millions of dollars

If it reduces costs, why do most developers buy engines then, instead of making their own?

[Rattlehead]

Agreed. That is the main reason people are scared this won't get fixed. I personally don't care how long it takes, I just want it fixed. The money thing scares me, because there comes a time when the law of diminishing returns calls the shots. Its a race to fix it before that law kicks in.

I'm not so sure.
The reason being that this was intended to be the first installment of a multi-part series, like the original Il-2.

It's only speculation on my part, but it could be that financially, Cliffs has been written off already, but 1c/Ubi have decided that they could recoup their money from the other installments which will follow.

The thing is, they can't abandon Clod because the tech powering the game willl be used for all successive games in the series too.
So despite maybe Clod being a write-off financially, they can't just shelve it and begin work on the next game.
Clod needs to be finished not only so that they can begin work on the next game, but also to reinstill faith and trust in their customer base.

Once the engine is sorted, development for the other games in the series should then be much less of a hassle.
The original series continues to this day, and I think this one could and should have the same lifespan, more or less.

The publishers can still make a lot of money from this series, provided that they have the faith that it can be salvaged.

[Revvin]

If the statement by Jason is true at least we get a peek at what is going on at Ubisoft/1C and perhaps understand Luthier's position a little better, perhaps those who continually berate him will just take a step back but I doubt it. Its the same old conspiracy theorists who post as many rumours and speculation as they can and when something half sticks they crow about how right they were and try to validate the rest of their ramblings from it, its done us no good, we're still in the same position we were in last week.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Just a few more words from Jason over at SIMHQ

I tried to give some insight into what happened so some people would stop dumping all their dissappointment on Luthier. My point is that he is not solely responsible for everything that went wrong and you guys should cut him some slack and give him time, like they did for us and ROF. There are a lot of Oleg fans out there and rightly so he brought you IL-2 which is great, but he is not a god. Something went wrong and I know a lot of the inside story, but what I said is as much as I want to divildge. The sim development community in Russia is quite small and a lot of what I have posted here is widely known in the Russian sim community. 99.9% of us westerners don't speak Russian so we don't pick up on it.

As for you insuating that the ROF team stole the IL-2 code to make ROF that is a serious charge and is way off base. Over 40 people were hired to make the ROF engine fromscratch and the original investor spent millions of dollars trying to make a sim. Hence, the teething problems some of you refer to. Our engine has nothing to do with IL-2. Originally a small group wanted to make a game using the IL-2 engine, but they didn't like the treatment they received by MG so they went and found a new investor and started everything from scratch. They even dumped the models they had made to make sure they had nothing to do with IL-2. Our engine has made a drastic leap forward in the past 2 years because of the hard #%&*$# work of a small and talented team and a supportive community and nothing else.

Believe me I wanted CLOD to be a huge success and help, along with ROF, WOP and DCS to show the retailers, publishers and potential investors that sims were a resurgent genre, but it's troubles have made that a little more difficult for all of us.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3373697/6.html

Now I posted it as a whole so hopefully I don't take it out of context but here's my take on it.

The interesting points for me are

The sim development community in Russia is quite small and a lot of what I have posted here is widely known in the Russian sim community. 99.9% of us westerners don't speak Russian so we don't pick up on it"

So most of what was originally stated by Jason was/is common knowledge in Russia.

Like most of us westerners we only get to see a small amount of any of the discussions where someone sees something that will backup the points that they are trying to make and translated only that small part.

Originally a small group wanted to make a game using the IL-2 engine, but they didn't like the treatment they received by MG so they went and found a new investor and started everything from scratch. They even dumped the models they had made to make sure they had nothing to do with IL-2.

One of the good things about ROF is that it is it stands on its own as a SIM. The developers can be very proud of what they have achieved. Like many projects a lot of ideas are bounced around in the begining. I'm sure the ROF team made the best choice for their project.

In my opinion the Cliffs of Dover team can be proud of what they have done so far. There's still alot of work to be done but that goes with all projects. You don't see the ROF team stopping their development work!

Our engine has made a drastic leap forward in the past 2 years because of the hard #%&*$# work of a small and talented team and a supportive community and nothing else.


From what I see when I play COD I know that the COD team has a lot of talent and has put in a lot of hard work. Now it's our turn as a community to do our part!

Believe me I wanted CLOD to be a huge success and help, along with ROF, WOP and DCS to show the retailers, publishers and potential investors that sims were a resurgent genre, but it's troubles have made that a little more difficult for all of us.

Maybe as a community we should be a little less interested in point scoring seeing what we can do to make it a success?

Cheers!

[albx]

I gave him my best support like others here: my money.....
And I dont apologize for nothing...

It is the turn for 1C now not for the community

well, apologizes is too much... of course we gave his company money buying the product, a beta version of a game... now what we paid is gone... we can only hope for a better support, if will be one.

[335th_GRAthos]

Interesting post, thank you for posting it Tree!

Does not change my opinion about certain things of this flight sim but it is interesting background information that sheds light to what happened behind the scenes.

~S~

[Feathered_IV]

I'm still a little confused as to how 1c is the bad guy, just for investing 8M and six years into Oleg. :confused:

Then again: "Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for their work and produce a product?" Does that infer that Ubi payed the money to MG through 1C, or does it mean 1C payed the money itself??

Even more confuddled :confused::confused:

[II./JG1_Krupinski]

Personally, I believe that Luthier and his team are up to the task of properly maintaining this game. The product isn't is as bad of shape as people lead on about.

All we can do now is sit back and wait. Leave them to their business and enjoy what we have now.

[Ze-Jamz]

Here here

[icarus]

Its as bad as some make out and not as bad as others make out. Its playable, but only just, and it is definitely an alpha or beta software. Its not a good sim right now, but it could be if they finish it.

Hopefully the money will hold out long enough for them to make it a good sim or better. Apologizing for it or whining are of no consequence either way. Neither make any difference to the fate of this sim.

If you are a big enough fan and are desperate for this to be finished, you should send checks to Luthier, that is the only thing that can make a difference....money. The devs will not work when the money runs out, finished or not.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Where I disagree is the bolded part. Developers making up their own universe have a much easier time of it than developers faithfully recreating something.
Depends really..

What I am referring to is the time it takes to dream up and script those 'other worlds', and as you know time is money. With regards to flight sims, they don't have to dream up a world, just implement the one we have.


Think of all the research that goes into a simulator, not only visual, but what goes on on the inside, like CEM, bullet physics, flight models etc.
The good news is the physics (math) of bullet and flight models has been around for a long time and has not changed much if any. And the implementation of said math has been done on computers for a very long time too. For example you can find the implementation of a F16 in FORTRAN. The only trick over the past 20 years was to get it all to run in real time, what with todays PCs that is no longer an issue. 20 years ago some parts of the flight model math had to be done via table lookup to save on processing power, but with todays high speed processors they can calculate those values in real time. I guess what I am saying is nothing really new physics/math wise has been added over the past 50 years wrt bullets and flight models, nothing new that the user will notice that is!

On a related topic, The area that is wide open.. and as far as I can see never ending is the math behind the AI and damage modeling. There things can be added that the user will notice!


The devs for say, Halo have none of that to worry about. They can make it up as they go, and don't have to worry about it being realistic.
Well there is still physics math involved, the only difference between HALO and IL2 is you don't have a death star top speed to compare to, to say how well the model of it is. ;)

[zapatista]

+1

You got it. Looks like Oleg screwed up bigtime and possibly lied about a sick son.

what kind of an insulting ignorant comment is that to make ? you been raised near a leaking atomic plant by any chance ?


Not very cool, but maybe this is how things are done in Russia????:confused:

your a bigoted fool who shouldn't be allowed near a computer

having been in this forum most weeks from its inception (till a couple of months after the CoD release), i can assure you that this is the type of meaningless insulting drivel only people like tree sprout here in this forum, and he does so deliberately at nausium because he is nothing but a petulant little whiner who draws in a cluster weak minded individuals that blow in whatever direction the wind goes that day

mmmm, /me remembers the mod's sane advice

am i prejudiced ? betcha i am right, its one of tree's thread turds that the other simpleton just stepped into

am i right ?

lemme check !

lol bingo !!

Originally Posted by Tree_UK
Well it proves that when I posted Oleg had gone (during development) that I was right on target, It also shows of the deception all were involved in to make us believe that Oleg was still captain of the ship, even down to telling us that Oleg's son was really ill so Oleg couldn't post.

dont get confused by the smoke screen people like tree are deliberately creating, he is not here because of anything to do with flightsim'ing or because he is even interested in the project, his only purpose is to whine and moan and smear oleg and Co at whatever chance he gets. its a consistent trait of the yellow streaked tree to post misleading information like that, and you just stepped right in it

disclaimer to the mod's: if personal insults, smearing of oleg's character and deliberately misleading posts (aimed at oleg and Co) like this are not moderated, or there is now a sign that this is accepted in this forum after all that Oleg has done for the community (and no doubt will further do in the future), then is no choice but for other posters to reply in a tone that merits the insult. tree's constant thread crapping and deliberately misleading posts will continue to stink up forum unless he is at long last perm banned (with the rest of his aliases), he will NEVER change his color's, after all these years this should be clear to all here by now. if this type of nonsense is moderated, feel free to remove my post,

THIS POST HAS BEEN REPORTED 4 TIMES....

NAME CALLING IS TROLL

YOU CALL NAMES YOU DESERVE MODERATION ACTION!

Good content has merit.

When you disguise your good content with name calling you make everything in your posting just so much of what you refer to as drivel.

Go eat a bagel or something and cool down. As they say in Mexico tranquilo, tranquilo

[IamNotDavid]

disclaimer to the mod's: if personal insults, smearing of oleg's character and deliberately misleading posts (aimed at oleg and Co) like this are not moderated, or there is now a sign that this is accepted in this forum after all that Oleg has done for the community (and no doubt will further do in the future), then is no choice but for other posters to reply in a tone that merits the insult. tree's constant thread crapping and deliberately misleading posts will continue to stink up forum unless he is at long last perm banned (with the rest of his aliases), he will NEVER change his color's, after all these years this should be clear to all here by now. if this type of nonsense is moderated, feel free to remove my post,

+1

[Rattlehead]

Depends really..

What I am referring to is the time it takes to dream up and script those 'other worlds', and as you know time is money. With regards to flight sims, they don't have to dream up a world, just implement the one we have.


Well there is still physics math involved, the only difference between HALO and IL2 is you don't have a death star top speed to compare to, to say how well the model of it is. ;)

I agree in a sense; the art direction on these games is pretty insane - there are some very talented people in this world with some amazing imaginations. I'm often astounded at the believeable worlds these devs conjure up.

But look at this another way...if, for instance, they're busy modelling a spaceship but find that it's taking too much time to realise that ship they way they originally intended, the devs can cut back on the detail and/or the physics and nobody would know. There is nothing to compare it to, after all.
Game worlds can be made as intricate or as basic as their needs determine, because there is no point of reference for it. The end user would be non the wiser either way.

In a sim, you're bound by historical aspects that allow for very little leeway, if at all.
As I'm sure you've noticed from this board, hardcore flight sim fans will very quickly point out even very minor mistakes or errors in 3D models, flight models and other aspects. The devs can't get away with anything other than exacting detail. :)

It may sound rather simple in theory to 'simply' recreate something, but given the choice, I would much rather start with a clean slate so to speak that isn't bound by anything, rather than have to recreate history in the finest detail.

[zapatista]

At the beginning BoB was further developed from IL2 and new features were built on top of it. However, someone thought it would be great idea to abandon Java (in which IL2 was written) and OpenGL. It might turn out it was indeed a great idea (in the long run), but usually such changes (revolution instead of evolution) mess whole project badly in the beginning, especially if you have small team and there were/are staff changes. That probably slowed development by 1-2 years at least.

you might know more then i do about the programing parts, but there were 2 steps in that delay

first the initial one was when they for a couple of years worked on improving the il2 code and were building BoB (as it was then called) as an advanced version of that same game engine (which has happened with several game engines successfully iirc)

a couple of years into that they decided on a complete rewrite from scratch. this in itself i wouldnt have seen as a major problem, and in the longer run s significantly to our advantage (as flightsimmers)

the 2e delay happened a couple of years after that roughly, when there was some major internal upheaval in the development team, some people were fired by Oleg, and there was a significant change in programmers working there (and RoF suddenly had lots of new staff with great idea's, but that is my personal speculation about 2 intersecting time lines, it roughly occurred at the same time)

others here might remember more about those 2 events, but its the combination of the 2 and in particular the 2e delay that lost 2 or 3 years that was the big killer imho

[nearmiss]

1 -Speculation - It is common practice with authors, especially proven authors to provide them with what is called "front money".

That should have some advocates don't you think?

2- Matrimonial unblissedness - It is common practice for all hell to break loose when a person is involved in a divorce, especially when children are involved.

That would require more speculation wouldn't it?

3. - Settlement offers with a price that cannot be refused.

Oops, that is Godfather stuff, " make an offer he can't refuse, put a horse's head in his bed".

Until Luthier or Oleg tell us what happened we won't know, but one thing is sure... we still probably won't know the whole story.

Tree will have an adjunct argument for certain.

I don't have a problem with that either, because critical and alternative thinking is what we need more of in this world. We would NOT be in the messes we are now, if our leaders were thinking..."What the heck is the person really saying, what are his motivations, and why does it all seem too simple, there has to be A RAT in all this... I've got find it". :rolleyes:

[zapatista]

Well maybe when 777 studio puts out their WWII fighter sim, then we will see.
I give up on 1C and getting this IL2 sturmovik Cliffs Of Dover version off the ground. Maybe if in 18 months, it might look and be as good as Rise Of Flight.

the only thing RoF does well, is as you put it "look good" (and close to the ground at low altitude it doesnt even do that, its flat sterile texture slabs with very little detail).granted the planes look pretty enough, but they use mostly canned flightmodels that are scripted (with a splash of real physics), the game was released empty and incomplete, they make you pay for every single plane, the world you fly in is empty and sterile, etc...

still, lets not digress the thread, suffice to say that RoF is nothing much to aim for in my book compared to the lofty hights CoD/BoB was aiming for (or even in comparison to some of the aspects of the old il2, mod'ed or unmod'ed)

[zapatista]

Just a few more words from Jason over at SIMHQ
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3373697/6.html
Now I posted it as a whole so hopefully I don't take it out of context but here's my take on it.
The interesting points for me are
So most of what was originally stated by Jason was/is common knowledge in Russia.
Like most of us westerners we only get to see a small amount of any of the discussions where someone sees something that will backup the points that they are trying to make and translated only that small part.
One of the good things about ROF is that it is it stands on its own as a SIM. The developers can be very proud of what they have achieved. Like many projects a lot of ideas are bounced around in the begining. I'm sure the ROF team made the best choice for their project.
In my opinion the Cliffs of Dover team can be proud of what they have done so far. There's still alot of work to be done but that goes with all projects. You don't see the ROF team stopping their development work!
From what I see when I play COD I know that the COD team has a lot of talent and has put in a lot of hard work. Now it's our turn as a community to do our part!
Maybe as a community we should be a little less interested in point scoring seeing what we can do to make it a success?
Cheers!

interesting, with the new bit being that there was indeed direct contact between RoF and the il2 team at the start of the RoF project (i hadnt seen that confirmed yet, and just knew about the overlapping time lines). the more jason tries to deny the link, the more confirmation there tends to be of a possible link with that lost 2 or 3 yrears on CoD/BoB :) (jups i am speculating here)

what i DO remember about that period is that there were incidents of attempted (and successful ?) code theft, and that some of those that were fired were because of unprofessional behavior and breaches of confidentiality, it was not a technical competency thing, there were "incidents" that led oleg to fire them, that much was clear.

one savior in all this was oleg's modular game design, were no single programer (other then himself) had an overview of the whole project, or had working integrated code. they each worked on their own area's, object and plane design, flight models, scenery, grafix engine , terrain detail etc..

pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together, we need some russian speaking contributors to unravel the rest.

[nearmiss]

interesting, with the new bit being that there was indeed direct contact between RoF and the il2 team at the start (i hadnt seen that confirmed yet, and just knew about the overlapping time lines)

what i DO remember about that period is that there were incidents of attempted (and successful ?) code theft, and that some of those that were fired were because of unprofessional behavior and breaches of confidentiality, it was not a technical competency thing, there were "incidents" that led oleg to fire them, that much was clear.

one savior in all this was oleg's modular game design, were no single programer (other then himself) had an overview of the whole project, or had working integrated code. they each worked on their own area's, object and plane design, flight models, scenery, grafix engine , terrain detail etc..

pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together, we need some russian speaking contributors to unravel the rest.

Go to ubisoft forums and stir up Gibbage, he used to work for Oleg progamming IL2. He has made so many rants, he is basically ignored. Yet a newb will hang on his every word.

At this point nothing matters that has passed. We all hope for the sake of our community that Luthier and the current dev team is up to the task.

No sense wagging a finger at the devs, Luthier or Oleg and saying naughty, naughty... it's a done deal. The devs have to move on. We would do ourselves good service to move on from all the speculations, whines, rants, etc.

I have every confidence as the fixes come to us, the COD patches will encourage new zeal from our community.

[Al Schlageter]

Go to ubisoft forums and stir up Gibbage, he used to work for Oleg progamming IL2. He has made so many rants, he is basically ignored. Yet a newb will hang on his every word.

No he didn't. He was a graphic artist doing a/c.

[SiThSpAwN]

Interesting info from OP, but it still feels like a pissing contest in here, lets move forward and not worry about how we got here. I agree with Tree that communication is sorely lacking, and would love to see that improve, I dont need a patch tomorrow if it is not ready, but I would love to know how its going, even if its just a hi, we are working, and here is a goofy video :)

[nearmiss]

No he didn't. He was a graphic artist doing a/c.

I recall he was doing work for Oleg. I read a bunch of his postings and he prevailed upon us he was somewhat of an authority.

His credentials were widened over time. LOL

Regardless, I found many of his postings good information.

[Mad G]

Go to ubisoft forums and stir up Gibbage, he used to work for Oleg progamming IL2. He has made so many rants, he is basically ignored. Yet a newb will hang on his every word.

At this point nothing matters that has passed. We all hope for the sake of our community that Luthier and the current dev team is up to the task.

No sense wagging a finger at the devs, Luthier or Oleg and saying naughty, naughty... it's a done deal. The devs have to move on. We would do ourselves good service to move on from all the speculations, whines, rants, etc.

I have every confidence as the fixes come to us, the COD patches will encourage new zeal from our community.

I agree and hope too this sim will be fixed, but why Luthier or somebody of his team doesn´t post any info in weeks?...

[Seeker]

Oh please, what's this, the new conspiracy Oleg defence?

Even if Clod's code base was lifted intact and ported to another game (which is what is being implied), I can see how that might give A.N. Other developer a good head start, but it in no way explains why Clod fell so far behind.

If A.N. Other developer can lift Oleg's magic code, and, on the base of it, get a full featured game running in two years, why couldn't Oleg?

I smell even more BS than usual for this forum.

What's next? Oleg could have made the game he took our money for, if only he hadn't had to save the World from Chenobyl?

Pathetic.

[Tree_UK]

what kind of an insulting ignorant comment is that to make ? you been raised near a leaking atomic plant by any chance ?




your a bigoted fool who shouldn't be allowed near a computer

having been in this forum most weeks from its inception (till a couple of months after the CoD release), i can assure you that this is the type of meaningless insulting drivel only people like tree sprout here in this forum, and he does so deliberately at nausium because he is nothing but a petulant little whiner who draws in a cluster weak minded individuals that blow in whatever direction the wind goes that day

mmmm, /me remembers the mod's sane advice

am i prejudiced ? betcha i am right, its one of tree's thread turds that the other simpleton just stepped into

am i right ?

lemme check !

lol bingo !!



dont get confused by the smoke screen people like tree are deliberately creating, he is not here because of anything to do with flightsim'ing or because he is even interested in the project, his only purpose is to whine and moan and smear oleg and Co at whatever chance he gets. its a consistent trait of the yellow streaked tree to post misleading information like that, and you just stepped right in it

disclaimer to the mod's: if personal insults, smearing of oleg's character and deliberately misleading posts (aimed at oleg and Co) like this are not moderated, or there is now a sign that this is accepted in this forum after all that Oleg has done for the community (and no doubt will further do in the future), then is no choice but for other posters to reply in a tone that merits the insult. tree's constant thread crapping and deliberately misleading posts will continue to stink up forum unless he is at long last perm banned (with the rest of his aliases), he will NEVER change his color's, after all these years this should be clear to all here by now. if this type of nonsense is moderated, feel free to remove my post,

THIS POST HAS BEEN REPORTED 2 TIMES....

NAME CALLING IS TROLL

YOU CALL NAMES YOU DESERVE MODERATION ACTION!

Good content has merit.

When you disguise your good content with name calling you make everything in your posting just so much of what you refer to as drivel.

Go eat a bagel or something and cool down. As they say in Mexico tranquilo, tranquilo

Thank you zap. However, I have purchased the game and fly every week. You haven't purchased the game, i have a right to critise because I have paid my dues, you have publically stated that you will not buy it until its fixed. Hopefully the mods will see through your pathetic attempts to get me banned and issue you one for your goodself. You constantly told us during development that we should trust in Oleg, you were wrong and you simply cannot deal with it, now go and find someone else to stalk.

The forums have been a lot better for your absense, and Blackdog as stated many times that this kind of personal attack will get a ban, you have severly over stepped the mark after already being asked to cool down.

[Friendly_flyer]

I just want to say "thank you" to Tree for making us aware of this. I hope it will go some way towards making this forum a bit more constructive.

Man, I am glad I'm not in Luthier's shoos!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I agree in a sense; the art direction on these games is pretty insane - there are some very talented people in this world with some amazing imaginations. I'm often astounded at the believable worlds these devs conjure up.
Agreed.. and it is that kind of stuff that I am referring to. Cant think of a good example off hand, but something like a portal opening up in a room, aka star wars/trek kind of stuff that they spend a lot of time and money making, but you would never see such a thing in our 'real world'.


But look at this another way...if, for instance, they're busy modelling a spaceship but find that it's taking too much time to realize that ship they way they originally intended, the devs can cut back on the detail and/or the physics and nobody would know. There is nothing to compare it to, after all. Game worlds can be made as intricate or as basic as their needs determine, because there is no point of reference for it. The end user would be non the wiser either way.
Agreed, in that is exactly what I said in my last post.

In response to you implying there is 'no physics' involved in games!

My point being both flight sims and games consist of a lot of physics (math) under the hood.


In a sim, you're bound by historical aspects that allow for very little leeway, if at all.
5% error in performance data is the generally excepted range.


As I'm sure you've noticed from this board, hard core flight sim fans will very quickly point out even very minor mistakes or errors in 3D models, flight models and other aspects. The devs can't get away with anything other than exacting detail. :)
Agreed


It may sound rather simple in theory to 'simply' recreate something, but given the choice, I would much rather start with a clean slate so to speak that isn't bound by anything, rather than have to recreate history in the finest detail.
Again, my point was simple, both games and flight sims have physics (math) involved. So no real savings there. And when you take into account the fact that the math of the 6DOF flight model has been around for decades you can begin to see that it might actually cost more to create your 'own' math for the physics of a death star entering a black hole while moving at the speed of light. ;)

In summary both games and flight sims consist of a lot of math and physics.. The neat thing is here in the real world all the math of the physics of a 6DOF flight model is at your disposal.

Thus what a 'game' saves in not having to be 'realistic' they spend in doing the math for things that dont exist
Thus what a 'sim' saves in not making things that dont exist they spend in validation for 'realism'

Not saying the two cancle each other, only that 'games' spend money on things that flight sims dont have to spend money on and visa versa.

[zapatista]

Oh please, what's this, the new conspiracy Oleg defence?

Even if Clod's code base was lifted intact and ported to another game (which is what is being implied),

no it isnt what is being implied at all.

in order to participate in a meaningful way you are at least expected to read what others wrote before you, and then make an effort to apply some basic reasoning and logic to the (few) real facts we have. then substract the influence from tree's deliberate thread crapping with misinformation and attitude of "lets blame oleg for everything" , and you'd arrive at the starting point of roughly having a sensible conversation.

what was being said is that there were 2 phases where significant time was lost
1) 2 years after the project started they ditched the "advanced il2 game/gfx engine", and
2) when there was some major upheaval another 2 or 3 yrs later when oleg fired a bunch of people because of unprofessional conduct and breaches of confidentiality and oleg had to restructure large parts of the project

the 3e known fact is that the 2e oleg disruption took place around the time RoF was in its early development (or just started ?). nobody is saying "they" stole the whole code from BoB and instantly started RoF, but there are some links between those events.

i'd love to get some input from russian forum readers on this, but few seem to visit here (other then around the russian release period earlier this year)

the heart of the matter remains unchanged, without oleg's vision, efforts, and previous work, there simply would be no BoB/CoD in ANY form that can aspire to be a high end flightsim, and there never would have been. and since we dont have all the details about the exact reasons for the buggy and unfinished recent release of CoD, putting the sole blame on oleg is silly, partic since we know that up until he was given the "one year release date ultimatum" that led to this fiasco, oleg was still very much involved in its creation (but not anymore beyond that point, which directly relates to the problems we have now)

[LoBiSoMeM]

I want Oleg back. Or a patch next month, if it's possible...

[zapatista]

Thank you zap. .
you'r welcome tree

However, I have purchased the game and fly every week. You haven't purchased the game, i have a right to critise because I have paid my dues, you have publically stated that you will not buy it until its fixed..
no tree, as usual you cant get things right, even when you have the correct information in front of you and you know better

you bought the game close to euro release time when it was already known to have major problems and was known to be almost unplayable, and you did so DELIBERATELY so you could whine, moan about it (and did so on all the forums you attend for months). you even admitted your motivation for doing so at the time. the joy and glee you expressed at all its problems was somewhat disturbing, at least from an health professionals perspective or the view from any normal forum user.

Hopefully the mods will see through your pathetic attempts to get me banned
no tree, that is not something to blame others for, rather funny you even try.

for years and years on all the il2/BoB forums you attend you do exactly the same thing, perpetual petulant whining about oleg, constant criticism about BoB/CoD things you dont understand, putting a negative slant on everything oleg/il2 being said, and deliberately mislead new people who come looking for information. you again did the same thing in this thread with your insults at oleg about him using a sick child in a new conspiracy theory you concocted for the occasion, and the first simpleton who comes along after that steps in your thread turd (as you intended) and drags it all over the forum

that is why you repeatedly get banned here and at several other of the main il2/BoB forums over many years, and you NEVER have changed your motivation for posting or your negative attitude. by knowing your past behavior, observing the current behavior, it is easy to predict your future bans when you DELIBERATELY continue with the same nonsense.

]You constantly told us during development that we should trust in Oleg, you were wrong and you simply cannot deal with it

no tree, it isnt, amongst all your other character flaws you have the added inability to process simple information in the right context. what we do know (you know, "facts") is that BoB/CoD from its inception was a more ambitious leap forward because it was more then a "simple flightsim", involving dynamic weather, integration of land/sea/air elements, dynamic campaigns etc, so it never was a simple "3 years and its out the door" project, add to that the 2 delays phases and a relatively low budget for a project this complex, and we landed where we are now.

what if luthier just before release was told "here is another 2 million dollars, just take another 2 years to finish the project correctly up to the standard you need/want", you think he would have said no ?
you think that if oleg last year would have been offered the same option that he wouldnt still be there ?

[hiro]

This is long but it has the quotes from the sim hq posts


What kinda gets me is the Jason post but the meat is what comes after:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3376003/4.html

Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: guod]
csThor
Team Daidalos
Member

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 2454
Loc: Germany
There is obviously a lot that went FUBAR during CloD development and not much is to blame on Ilya - so far I agree with Jason. But:

When Oleg was still there external input was valued and communication - even the tiniest bit of it - was ensured. I, personally, spent over two years researching and creating the german unit list and their emblems and markings and I was told the Maddox Games coding gurs were both pleased at the load of information and dismayed (since it meant more work for them ). But since Oleg departed there is a silence far more complete than in space, in fact there's more light coming out of a black hole than info coming from Maddox Games. I don't know what the issue is - I was given an internal document by Ilya shortly after release to fix a number of minor issues with the german unit list and the emblems and markings, but despite me sending the docs and links five times from my mail account and trying to get it across via three different people there has not been the slightest indication Maddox Games has received them. And after so much time (I sent it in April) I have trouble believing that it never arrived - I am actually beginning to think Ilya does not care about external input. Other people have reported the same, some even complained about a new somewhat contemptous attitude towards externals. Jason - I know you're good friends with Ilya, but I have to say that during the last 3 months he has managed to alienate a number of people who spent considerable time (and in cases considerable money) to produce content for CloD and who are now suddenly in the dark whether all that effort was wasted or not.

Jason, if you really have a solid friendship with Ilya I really ask you to tell him what is brewing in the community. A lot of people who were quite prepared to cut MG a lot of slack are pretty fed up and angry right now. And I am one of them.
_________________________
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I remember CSthor being cool even when people tried to trip him up on facts way back when Team D took the reigns from the dev team for Il 1946 patches. And Team D was on the inside but couldn't really reveal BOB SOW facts back then.

I remember reading CSthor's posts and they made sense, he had a clear grasp of Team D and activities, was a pro in his area of expertise.



Maybe Ilya doesn't listen as much because a) I/we are a bunch of whiners and he must stick to the objectives (fry the bigger fish)

or

b) given his situation of fixing everything, he just has to prioritize

c) time is too short.

or the worst is

d) at this point doesn't care because X no. of reasons . . .

I can see how you fix one thing then someone else complains about historical accuracy etc . . .


Anycase this kinda goes with the sudden loss of communication with the change over




the other one is:






http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3376003/6.html

777 Studios - Jason
Member


Whatever rootango. I tried to give some insight into what happened so some people would stop dumping all their dissappointment on Luthier. My point is that he is not solely responsible for everything that went wrong and you guys should cut him some slack and give him time, like they did for us and ROF. There are a lot of Oleg fans out there and rightly so he brought you IL-2 which is great, but he is not a god. Something went wrong and I know a lot of the inside story, but what I said is as much as I want to divulge. The sim development community in Russia is quite small and a lot of what I have posted here is widely known in the Russian sim community. 99.9% of us westerners don't speak Russian so we don't pick up on it.

As for you insuating that the ROF team stole the IL-2 code to make ROF that is a serious charge and is way off base. Over 40 people were hired to make the ROF engine fromscratch and the original investor spent millions of dollars trying to make a sim. Hence, the teething problems some of you refer to. Our engine has nothing to do with IL-2. Originally a small group wanted to make a game using the IL-2 engine, but they didn't like the treatment they received by MG so they went and found a new investor and started everything from scratch. They even dumped the models they had made to make sure they had nothing to do with IL-2. Our engine has made a drastic leap forward in the past 2 years because of the hard #%&*$# work of a small and talented team and a supportive community and nothing else.

Believe me I wanted CLOD to be a huge success and help, along with ROF, WOP and DCS to show the retailers, publishers and potential investors that sims were a resurgent genre, but it's troubles have made that a little more difficult for all of us.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic. Take my words however you want. I have a new update and airplane for ROF to release. :-)

Jason


Edited by 777 Studios - Jason (Yesterday at 10:23 PM)




The part in bold means that there are some out there that know the real deal about what happened from BOB SOW to CLoD (if Jason is 100% right) and it would help shed alot of light telling the truth.

But it also would direct angry gamers at blaming game, which by now is too late.

And maybe they are pulling a MIB (men in black) just so people's reps doesn't get tarnished or the upheaval doesn't drive fans away as it could be some serious lack of good attitude towards the game / fans.

I don't know, its all speculation. It'd just be better if they came out with a official blow by blow, step by step, here's whats happened so far, now here we are hoping to be . . .

Rather than having to pick from sukhoi.ru forums, natural point, ubi, here, sim hq . . .

Ah but what a drama this is turning out to be.



A wish of mine is for Oleg to return and help Luthier and get things back on track but alas . . .

[Tree_UK]

you'r welcome tree


no tree, as usual you cant get things right, even when you have the correct information in front of you and you know better

you bought the game close to euro release time when it was already known to have major problems and was known to be almost unplayable, and you did so DELIBERATELY so you could whine, moan about it (and did so on all the forums you attend for months). you even admitted your motivation for doing so at the time. the joy and glee you expressed at all its problems was somewhat disturbing, at least from an health professionals perspective or the view from any normal forum user.


no tree, that is not something to blame others for, rather funny you even try.

for years and years on all the il2/BoB forums you attend you do exactly the same thing, perpetual petulant whining about oleg, constant criticism about BoB/CoD things you dont understand, putting a negative slant on everything oleg/il2 being said, and deliberately mislead new people who come looking for information. you again did the same thing in this thread with your insults at oleg about him using a sick child in a new conspiracy theory you concocted for the occasion, and the first simpleton who comes along after that steps in your thread turd (as you intended) and drags it all over the forum

that is why you repeatedly get banned here and at several other of the main il2/BoB forums over many years, and you NEVER have changed your motivation for posting or your negative attitude. by knowing your past behavior, observing the current behavior, it is easy to predict your future bans when you DELIBERATELY continue with the same nonsense.



no tree, it isnt, amongst all your other character flaws you have the added inability to process simple information in the right context. what we do know (you know, "facts") is that BoB/CoD from its inception was a more ambitious leap forward because it was more then a "simple flightsim", involving dynamic weather, integration of land/sea/air elements, dynamic campaigns etc, so it never was a simple "3 years and its out the door" project, add to that the 2 delays phases and a relatively low budget for a project this complex, and we landed where we are now.

what if luthier just before release was told "here is another 2 million dollars, just take another 2 years to finish the project correctly up to the standard you need/want", you think he would have said no ?
you think that if oleg last year would have been offered the same option that he wouldnt still be there ?

You haven't got the game yet have you? :grin::grin::grin:

[Seeker]

no it isnt what is being implied at all.

in order to participate in a meaningful way you are at least expected to read what others wrote before you, and then make an effort to apply some basic reasoning and logic to the (few) real facts we have. then substract the influence from tree's deliberate thread crapping with misinformation and attitude of "lets blame oleg for everything" , and you'd arrive at the starting point of roughly having a sensible conversation.

You are exactly and precisely implying that code was lost and reused. Perhaps English isn't your first language? Try rereading your post.

And why, if you are trying to have a conversation, do you bring Tree into it? I really can't see the relevance of Tree's postings juxtapostioned with my own. It's a basic logic and reasoning thing.


As for blaming Oleg for everything, well yes. That's what being in charge means, it means taking responsibility for the mistakes and failures of your underlings, and taking the credit and praise for their good work. Again, it's a basic logic and reasoning thing.

How does the game run on your system, and are you satisfied with it?

[Sven]

Thanks Hiro for posting that, it doesn't surprise me however. I do feel very sorry for csThor, he put in all that effort and I would surely be as angry if the same happened to me.

[Madfish]

You haven't got the game yet have you? :grin::grin::grin:

What a pointless question. I didn't expect anything less from you though. :P Anyways - the real question is what do you expect to change with your behavior or for example with what's going on on simhq, posting all this rubbish?

The game has bugs and other shortcomings, ok. I agree with you there. But then you come here and repeatedly state the same old boring story like 2000 times. If you hate the game so much why did you buy it? Aren't you mature enough to read a review or wait for one? And if you did buy it, play it and critizise it - why don't you do it in a way that actually helps and doesn't just tarnish the reputation of it until it's dead forever? NO game will EVER be perfect and frankly your vision isn't necessarily the one that's best for the game.

Either there are reasons for the situation or the game is just crap. And if it's so crappy then go and make a better one. There's no reason to besiege this forum with negativity just because you were unable to read a review before buying a game that you've been bickering about since... well, in fact since the first post I saw from you.

And also you should know best that it's pointless to do what you're doing. You commonly get similar reactions to your... provocative... posts from those who're actually here to make the best out of the situation not just vent their real life issues. But do you see it as a reason to change? :rolleyes:

No, you don't. And I doubt this spam of weird stuff we see here daily will change anything. If you really want this situation to change to a more positive one then stop being negative. Is the 50 bucks your only problem? That's not even half a week worth of food over here in Germany. Don't tell me you're starving from hunger and still have the luxury to spend all your time on internet forums instead of work. I'm sure you'd be able to get over this mistake if you really didn't want the situation to become better - but deep down you want it to become better, don't you?


There's only a few things that we can do as a community that will help. Some of these are for example:

Technical:
*Study IT and after you learned how to programm offer your help coding :-P

*Do extensive testing and technical bug reports

*Have patience. Technical issues often are time consuming if you want to solve them, not just hot-glue or patch them temporarily.

Art:
*Provide detailed rescources or point out individuals, great archives etc. to help the developers create a more athmospheric game.

*Elaborate and discuss art & style topics with the community. After there are reasonable fundamented opinions write up an extensive in-depth report with examples and rescources. Also do not only mention pro's - try to find contra as well to give a more rounded picture (you're probably very good at that).

*UI issues etc. should be resolved by providing flowcharts and sketches

*storyboards could also give the devopers a nice picture of what could be done to improve the game. E.g. a better menu, maps, mission builder layout or whatever.

*also make sure to buy a calibrated monitor before posting about ugly colors or posting pictures. The color debate is a very... weird one. And many of the images I see look questionable on my fully calibrated screens with 10bit LUT.


As for the communication that's coming, or rather NOT coming, from the team - well, I'm also disappointed. But nevertheless. Talking rubbish won't fix that. See above.
There might be more stuff on russian forums that we don't know about. I guess that some guys could help us with updates from such boards. Maybe we can talk to them and eventually they'll help out?


One thing that absolutely DOESN'T help out is opinions like the one on simhq. They did lower their standards by a large amount. Reporting on arcade games and posting such "posts" and "opinions" is proof of that.
Again: it's not helping! All it does is lowering chances of recovery and generally destroying the genre itself. They could've chose other channels first.
You can give a game a bad review, fine. They did. But repeatedly mauling a title down until it's dust won't help anyone. What simhq did was purely unprofessional. If they don't have any content to write about that's one thing - but delivering such blows to a game that's in a bit of trouble does nothing but eventually making sure UBI cancels eventual addon packs and cancels all development once and for all. No further content, no patches, nada. Is that what you want? Then fine, go ahead and give my best regards to the geniuses at simhq responsible for that.

[Buchon]

WowW you guys write nice text walls in this thread ;)

Tree, a question for you :

you like the game?

:rolleyes:

[Madfish]

As for blaming Oleg for everything, well yes. That's what being in charge means, it means taking responsibility for the mistakes and failures of your underlings, and taking the credit and praise for their good work. Again, it's a basic logic and reasoning thing.

How does the game run on your system, and are you satisfied with it?

We don't know if he's responsible. There is a whole lot of background going on behind the scenes. Deals with publishers, models that are being used in multiple projects etc.

I do agree, he is probably the one in charge. But then again: some posters here are so obsessed with pointing out even absolutely laughable flaws, like tracers and other minor stuff, that I begin asking myself if they're all the image of god or if they have been treating their mothers and fathers in the same respectless and rude way for the shortcomings they burdened upon them by giving birth to them?

Not everything is perfect in life - but we'll see new additional content and bug fixes. So if you haven't bought the game yet then don't and wait. If you have just go outside and enjoy the summer while it lasts and avoid all the stress. Maybe we'll get a sunny winter with a better sim when some more patches are out heh? :-P

[Tree_UK]

WowW you guys write nice text walls in this thread ;)

Tree, a question for you :

you like the game?

:rolleyes:

Yes mate, i do, I fly 3-4 times a week but only online.

[Rattlehead]

Honestly? I think there are people that would like to see this title crash and burn.
I'm not saying it's this person or that person...just that it's a disturbing trend I've picked up not only here, but at SimHQ as well.
There was a poster there, can't remember his name, who was actually really pleased about the poor state the game was in a few months ago.

I don't understand that mentality at all.

[Tree_UK]

you bought the game close to euro release time when it was already known to have major problems and was known to be almost unplayable, and you did so DELIBERATELY so you could whine, moan about it (and did so on all the forums you attend for months). you even admitted your motivation for doing so at the time. the joy and glee you expressed at all its problems was somewhat disturbing, at least from an health professionals perspective or the view from any normal forum user.


I did deliberatley buy the game, that is correct. My joy and glee was not aimed at the state it was in but aimed at the people like your goodself who had rubbished me all through the development process, they could not see what was so painfully obvious and they were absoloutley convinced that Oleg & Luthier were holding back showing us the real CLOD until released. "Its WORK IN PROGRESS they all cried!!" You were one of these short sighted fanboys that were oh so aggresive in defending Oleg, it became your crusade and you simply couldn't see the obvious where as I could. However, despite the flaws (i didn't need to read a review) I purchased the game because i am a true flight sim fan, you didn't buy the game. I do feel sorry for you having been so badly duped, your hero Oleg lost his magic power and you were left holding his flag and it pains you greatly.


your insults at oleg about him using a sick child in a new conspiracy theory you concocted for the occasion, and the first simpleton who comes along after that steps in your thread turd (as you intended) and drags it all over the forum

I think you misunderstood my post, the deception from Luthier was that Oleg couldn't post because his child was ill, where we now know that Oleg couldn't post because he was no longer working on the project. If anything you should be throwing your dummy at Luthier not me.

[klem]

Honestly? I think there are people that would like to see this title crash and burn.
I'm not saying it's this person or that person...just that it's a disturbing trend I've picked up not only here, but at SimHQ as well.
There was a poster there, can't remember his name, who was actually really pleased about the poor state the game was in a few months ago.

I don't understand that mentality at all.

I'm sure you're right.

Some people get a vicarious pleasure out of destroying things and great satisfaction from predicting failure before something's even been seen only to be able to trumpet their brilliance when it happens they are correct. Its a win-win for them because if they are proved incorrect they simply keep quiet. Of course when they are correct you never hear the end of it.

I think it fills a void in their lives.

Its a psychology thing and best ignored.

[Blackdog_kt]

+1

You got it. Looks like Oleg screwed up bigtime and possibly lied about a sick son. Not very cool, but maybe this is how things are done in Russia????:confused:

One more point; Over $1 million a year for a staff of how many; 6-10, in Eastern Europe???? Seems like good financing to me. It's probably even worse since the game was 2-3 years late;)

Oleg didn't tell people anything about his son. Someone at the Russian forums was posting there was a rumour that his kid needed heart surgery and he didn't have as much time to devote to the company because of this. Maybe he was someone who knew Oleg personally, or maybe he was just trolling. Either way, it wasn't Oleg's words.

So, before you accuse someone of lying about life and death situations in such a distasteful manner and then inserting a jab about an entire country, maybe you should do your research first.

Please edit your post to something less inflammatory or i'll have to move it (it's been reported) and serve you a warning.

[SG1_Lud]

I'm sure you're right.

Some people get a vicarious pleasure out of destroying things and great satisfaction from predicting failure before something's even been seen only to be able to trumpet their brilliance when it happens they are correct. Its a win-win for them because if they are proved incorrect they simply keep quiet. Of course when they are correct you never hear the end of it.

I think it fills a void in their lives.

Its a psychology thing and best ignored.

Perfectly described in a few words. And you gave the remedy too ;)

[Scarecrow]

Some people get a vicarious pleasure out of destroying things and great satisfaction from predicting failure before something's even been seen only to be able to trumpet their brilliance when it happens they are correct. Its a win-win for them because if they are proved incorrect they simply keep quiet. Of course when they are correct you never hear the end of it.

I think it fills a void in their lives.

Its a psychology thing and best ignored.

Schadenfreude is the term for this, its german, it means shameful joy.

[Majo]

We were so happy in our ignorance... throwing things one to another without much criteria.

Now that we really start to know this is turning way too ugly.

I keep CLOD in my HD and I try to play 4 or 5 hours a week mainly offline because I still have many issues online. I just cannot take it seriously in its actual state. I follow the update threads in the forums, look for the efforts of the community to add value, dynamic campaigns, new setups, mods, try new tricks a so on… I want to believe, really.

Il2 & saga is probably the only software related item of which I know the names of some people behind the product. It was very interesting to see how distinguished members of the community were able to establish some kind of communication with the staff of IL2 and especially with Oleg. He once answered one of my questions… not being myself a distinguished members, of course.

Things were very different back then. The product was different.

IMHO we first need a product that can be taken seriously in order to recover that level of communication. We also need to be constantly reminded that the people behind the product are doing all they can to help us take this product in a serious manner. I do not need so much to know about the reasons but to know about the improvements-results.

Silence sometime can be deafening.

Salutes

[Codex]

We were so happy in our ignorance... throwing things one to another without much criteria.

Now that we really start to know this is turning way too ugly.

I keep CLOD in my HD and I try to play 4 or 5 hours a week mainly offline because I still have many issues online. I just cannot take it seriously in its actual state. I follow the update threads in the forums, look for the efforts of the community to add value, dynamic campaigns, new setups, mods, try new tricks a so on… I want to believe, really.

Il2 & saga is probably the only software related item of which I know the names of some people behind the product. It was very interesting to see how distinguished members of the community were able to establish some kind of communication with the staff of IL2 and especially with Oleg. He once answered one of my questions… not being myself a distinguished members, of course.

Things were very different back then. The product was different.

IMHO we first need a product that can be taken seriously in order to recover that level of communication. We also need to be constantly reminded that the people behind the product are doing all they can to help us take this product in a serious manner. I do not need so much to know about the reasons but to know about the improvements-results.

Silence sometime can be deafening.

Salutes

That is the best post I've read all day and I couldn't agree more.

I've been very forgiving of the flight sim genre in terms of development and the like as it's what I love to play. I knew full well the state CoD was in at release and yet I still forked over my hard earned money for the CE because I wanted to supoort it as much as I could. I know Tree can be provactive but the quote he has presented (and if true) has proven to me that, once again, it's the paying customer who gets F$%KED over time and time again, and I'm over it.

As it stands right now there is nothing that makes me want to want to fly CoD in it's current state. STEAM says I've got 16 hours in total playing / flying CoD. If thats true then I can guarentee that 95% of that time has been flying the Ju88 in autopilot while trying to tweaking the settings to get it to run smoothly or just goofing around. The only aircraft I have spent any time on has been the 110 and I needed to relying on YouTube videos to learn how to get the thing in the air. After then seeing the damage modeling in action in the current patch (i.e. trees have no impact) I gave up. I have yet to find anything in CoD that makes me want to take this sim as seriously as I did with the previous versions of IL-2.

Right now, no matter how hard I try, I can't escape the feeling that I've got $110 worth of wasted space on my HDD and that I do actually feel that I've been ripped off. Now I know this is only temporary, but its sad to think of this sim in this way ... but here we are.

I've actually bought RoF last week and I'm flying that online with some mates and we're getting much more enjoyment out of that at the moment. I'm just praying that IIlya delivers on the items he mentioned in the 6th August update thread, because right now, I'll be thinking twice before buying another game.

[ZaltysZ]

Oleg didn't tell people anything about his son. Someone at the Russian forums was posting there was a rumour that his kid needed heart surgery and he didn't have as much time to devote to the company because of this. Maybe he was someone who knew Oleg personally, or maybe he was just trolling. Either way, it wasn't Oleg's words.

Source of information about son and his heart is one comment in youtube. Comment was made by user "OlegMaddox" after kinda long and tense comment exchange with other user.

http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=P5gxvwXVZJw&lc=0ktrcKUWCa3owYemdWN7JpbyH1c4urf0i42xThuglWo

Я гоовлюсь к операции на сердце своему сыну. Так что в ближайшее время мне все будет пофигу.

I am preparing for heart surgery of my son. So, I will care about nothing else in near future.

Oleg has posted some videos on this forum, and those videos were from youtube channel, which belonged to youtube user "OlegMaddox". So, it is very likely, that quote above belongs to Oleg Maddox.

[winny]

Jeez, it's just a game. I really don't think that as a forum we should be discussing the health of a child as a reason for the current state of things.

No matter how good at communicating to the community OM was (really? I always found him to be stuborn) the simple fact is that during the 5 years that he was in charge there was no game. He talked the talk, but when it came to walking the walk something went wrong.

Attaching blame for this mess is a pointless exercise.

There needs to be a colletive effort to draw a line under the past. This constant need to hold people accountable is literally suffocating the forum, the game and the community. It is in the past. Get over it and look forwards.

All everyone really want's to know is that the development team are fully committed to fixing it and that the publishers are committed to the developers.

The rest is a matter of time. It is in no ones interest for CloD to fail.
(with the exception of the 'I told you so' brigade, but that's just self justification for being a tw*t)

[Chivas]

I did deliberatley buy the game, that is correct. My joy and glee was not aimed at the state it was in but aimed at the people like your goodself who had rubbished me all through the development process, they could not see what was so painfully obvious and they were absoloutley convinced that Oleg & Luthier were holding back showing us the real CLOD until released. "Its WORK IN PROGRESS they all cried!!" You were one of these short sighted fanboys that were oh so aggresive in defending Oleg, it became your crusade and you simply couldn't see the obvious where as I could. However, despite the flaws (i didn't need to read a review) I purchased the game because i am a true flight sim fan, you didn't buy the game. I do feel sorry for you having been so badly duped, your hero Oleg lost his magic power and you were left holding his flag and it pains you greatly.




I think you misunderstood my post, the deception from Luthier was that Oleg couldn't post because his child was ill, where we now know that Oleg couldn't post because he was no longer working on the project. If anything you should be throwing your dummy at Luthier not me.


Yes, fans of the new series were calling the sim a "Work in Progress", then, and we are calling it a "Work in Progress" now. It should also be "Work in Progress" for another then years. We were right then, now, and hopefully in the future.

[icarus]

Jeez, it's just a game.

Amen

[Tvrdi]

Jeez, it's just a game.

No. Its a porked game I purchased for 45 bucks and cant play, which was btw, available for just 15 bucks.

[nearmiss]

No. Its a porked game I purchased for 45 bucks and cant play, which was btw, available for just 15 bucks.

What a hoot, statements like yours are like...

I can't walk to town any more, yet you don't tell anyone you don't have any legs.

You don't help your image when you make unqualified statements.

It is not a porked game...

Go here and watch this video

http://www.avsims.com/cfsim/content/battle-britain-kanalkampf

Follow up with this video

http://www.avsims.com/cfsim/content/day-adlertag

You just have problems and until you decide to deal with them, they aren't going to fix with rants and whines.

[winny]

No. Its a porked game I purchased for 45 bucks and cant play, which was btw, available for just 15 bucks.

No, it's still just a game.

And my comment was in context, not standalone.

You have a very simple choice, wait, or walk away and chalk it up to experience. No ammount of bitching will change what happened.

I guess your reaction to disappointment is just a little bit more extreme than mine. I don't get it.

[robtek]

To wallow in self-pity, comes to mind.

[Codex]

You just have problems and until you decide to deal with them, they aren't going to fix with rants and whines.

With all due respect to you nearmiss this is exactly what most of us are whining about. The fact the we, the paying customer, have to try and "fix" the issues as best we can (in my case 15 or so hours) and still getting a less than acceptable experience.

Re: making qualified statements. Aren't we qualified? Because we're the ones having to deal with the current state of this sim. We're the ones who take the time to use this sim and want to get the most out of it. We're the ones that want this sim to work as much as anyone in the Dev team, and we're the one's who are being targeted to buy it. I can appreciate that there are some who will just whine for the sake of it, but I for one have been a strong supporter of this series and I'm not referring to how many posts I've made here or on UBIZoo, but by my wallet, and I'm getting close to being so fed up it's not funny anymore.

As I said previously, I'm praying that Illya delivers on what he said in his last update, and I'm not expecting more than that. If some reason something can't be delivered, then for god sake tell us. I'm sure he'll deliver, but remember there's only so much people are willing to put up with, especially after having given our money.

I understand the pressures on the dev team and I commend IIlya for taking the sim to the point it's at right now, but I'd like to point out that at the end of the day who's the one's really funding all this? 1C / Ubi? No it's the Joe's (like you and me) on the street, so I think it's time for some perspective and a little Friday update wouldn't hurt.

I feel for you mods I really do, but remember there are some legitimate people out there, with a passion for this series who are wanting nothing more than some news or progress reports.

[TUSA/TX-Gunslinger]

- Post edited.

- Reason: "Do no harm". It's all been covered by someone somewhere.

Summary:

I really wish Jason had not posted what he did. He helped no one. He did damage.

I continue to have full confidence in Luthier and 1C, due to:

- my experience with Rise of Flight and it's initial release and development
- my experience with 1C/Maddox Games and all the products I've purchased in the past
- state of technology contained within Cliff's of Dover

S!

Gunny

[nearmiss]

Codex

There really isn't anything to say.

Luthier responded and gave us information that sounds good to me.

We still get assurances and patches. I don't know if you were around during IL2 days before Forgotten Battles. Yipes what a trip that was, and for every add on and patch thereafter.

Try to look on the bright side, it's cheerier there.

:)

[Blackdog_kt]

TheShark: You're not going to get a ban for stating an opinion. You'd simply be getting a warning for something that any other user would. Rules apply equally to everyone and that includes you, me or anybody else here.


With all due respect to you nearmiss this is exactly what most of us are whining about. The fact the we, the paying customer, have to try and "fix" the issues as best we can (in my case 15 or so hours) and still getting a less than acceptable experience.

Re: making qualified statements. Aren't we qualified? Because we're the ones having to deal with the current state of this sim. We're the ones who take the time to use this sim and want to get the most out of it. We're the ones that want this sim to work as much as anyone in the Dev team, and we're the one's who are being targeted to buy it. I can appreciate that there are some who will just whine for the sake of it, but I for one have been a strong supporter of this series and I'm not referring to how many posts I've made here or on UBIZoo, but by my wallet, and I'm getting close to being so fed up it's not funny anymore.

As I said previously, I'm praying that Illya delivers on what he said in his last update, and I'm not expecting more than that. If some reason something can't be delivered, then for god sake tell us. I'm sure he'll deliver, but remember there's only so much people are willing to put up with, especially after having given our money.

I understand the pressures on the dev team and I commend IIlya for taking the sim to the point it's at right now, but I'd like to point out that at the end of the day who's the one's really funding all this? 1C / Ubi? No it's the Joe's (like you and me) on the street, so I think it's time for some perspective and a little Friday update wouldn't hurt.

I feel for you mods I really do, but remember there are some legitimate people out there, with a passion for this series who are wanting nothing more than some news or progress reports.

Depends on how one says things. Your post=valid, even though i disagree in some points.

Tvrdi's posts on the other hand have simply been venting "i wasted $50 on this" outbursts ever since the release: it's the same thing over and over and an opinion not shared by everyone, so when trying to present opinion as definitive fact it gets tiresome. It's his opinion and shared by some people, but not everybody's opinion.

Tvrdi: If you can get a refund do it mate. If you can't afford to waste money on PC games wait for the review next time. Just please, stop doing our head in with your personal horror story. You did the exact same thing with RoF back in the day: initial over-enthusiasm followed by crashing and burning disappointment, then two years later RoF is fixed and you praise it. Learn something from your past experience and don't repeat the same thing with CoD ;-)

[Codex]

@nearmiss, I will mate. I always remind myself of Monty Python's the "Life of Brian" ... ;)

@anyone. It's good to get things off your chest every now and then, but keep it in perspective.

Cheers,
Codex

[Tree_UK]

The new patch looks very very promising, the sound of that 109 is impressive. :grin:

[Tvrdi]

What a hoot, statements like yours are like...

I can't walk to town any more, yet you don't tell anyone you don't have any legs.

You don't help your image when you make unqualified statements.

It is not a porked game...

Go here and watch this video

http://www.avsims.com/cfsim/content/battle-britain-kanalkampf

Follow up with this video

http://www.avsims.com/cfsim/content/day-adlertag

You just have problems and until you decide to deal with them, they aren't going to fix with rants and whines.

Im just having problems....thats hillarious...yea, with all my knowledge (HW and SW related) and experience (as beta tester), with my modern rig (i7 3.5Ghz, GTX470 TwinFrozr2 - core working on 750 Mhz, 6GB or RAM etc.), with all my knowledge regarding optimisation and tuning of the windows (to achieve better performance in games) your telling me this nonsense....
seriously, Do you really think CLOD is optimised well in its current state?
Do you really think extertnal engine sounds are better than stock il2 sounds and up to the standards of modern sims as is ROF or modded il2 46?
Do you really think the landscape is up to the standrads of modern sim with its super vivid colors?
Do you really think the AA is working as it should?
Do you really think its ok to sell this sim for 40 euros and then after the "bad news spread"...for just 15 bucks?
Do you really think that lack of (proper) communication with the community will help this sim?
Let me ask you, how many are playin this sim online?

I agree that FM is nice but what can I do if Im not able to play this with modern rig...Its always easier to blame "non competent" and "uneducated" customers...

and btw, Im wondering, what were the CLODs beta testers doing when they stressed this sim? Nobody noticed anything?

[Blackdog_kt]

Do you really think extertnal engine sounds are better than stock il2 sounds and up to the standards of modern sims as is ROF or modded il2 46?

See the latest update. The original sounds were placeholder, if they weren't forced to release the game early we wouldn't have seen them used at all because they would have used the new sounds that we are about to get now. We wouldn't have been able to get a bit of early experience either though and maybe the entire sim would have been scrapped.


Do you really think the landscape is up to the standrads of modern sim with its super vivid colors?

Again, see the latest update. Graphics engine is being redone.


Do you really think the AA is working as it should?

Same as before.


Do you really think its ok to sell this sim for 40 euros and then after the "bad news spread"...for just 15 bucks?

This was the same for IL2 as well and there wasn't no bad news spreading there. I've got every single boxed title in the IL2 series and many of those i got while i was a student. If i had enough spare money i would buy it right away, if i didn't i would just wait a month and get it for half price or less.

It's not about bad news, it's about simulators selling less than other game genres. My personal experience is completely at odds with what you describe, so for me the argument is invalid. Like i always say, not everyone shares the same experiences or opinion.

If full game price is too much to pay do like i used to do with IL2 during my student years: wait a couple of months or read a few reviews and the forums. Someone completely new to flight sims could have been deceived. Us people on this forum though had ample information about the state of the game (the Russian release had already happened and we knew what was wrong), so nobody can claim surprise and keep a straight face while doing it.

I can't feel sorry for people who have all the bad signs in front of them, decide to take a complete leap of faith despite that knowledge because of their impatience, then complain about their initially bad and mostly self-inflicted experiences for months after the cause of it has been mostly rectified. I just don't feel it, sorry, never have and never will. We got free choice, if people make bad choices it's their burden to bear, i'm not going to hold their hand on matters as trivial in the grand scheme of life as a video game.

Do you really think that lack of (proper) communication with the community will help this sim?

There is communication alright, whenever something is ready they show it to us and tell us what's next.

Weekly updates just for the sake of it are useless if they don't have something to show that the majority here will understand. "Hey guys, we are currently optimizing the (insert overly technical terms here) for our dynamic weather/AI/flight modeling", how would that help anyone who's not a meteorologist, aircraft engineer or AI programmer? That's right, it wouldn't.

It would just have people going "Wow, i have no idea what that means but it sounds impressive, good to know they are working on it".
The only thing all of us can understand here is "working on it" and videos or screenshots of a finished feature. We wouldn't know anything more than we currently do until something complete was shown even if they gave weekly updates. If there's nothing marketable to show, an update is useless.

Let me ask you, how many are playin this sim online?

Probably more people than the amount that used to play RoF during the first six months of its life. I distinctly remember the same kind of complaints on simHQ, with 15-20 people on the Syndicate server and not much on any other server. Funny you don't remember it, seeing as you were there during RoF's early days too :rolleyes:

I agree that FM is nice but what can I do if Im not able to play this with modern rig...Its always easier to blame "non competent" and "uneducated" customers...

and btw, Im wondering, what were the CLODs beta testers doing when they stressed this sim? Nobody noticed anything?

Valid points here. I don't know why it won't run well on your rig. It runs very well on mine and it's much weaker than your PC. Have you tried to turn down a few settings or are you one of the guys running textures at original size and expecting it not to get bogged down? That's the one single setting with the most impact in terms of FPS.

As to the beta testers, the situation is simple. Money over = release game. It happened with RoF too.


Long story short, make your own choice about buying the game, just don't drag the rest of us into supporting your viewpoint when it's clearly caused by self-inflicted errors and choosing things that were unsuitable for your enjoyment. CoD's problems are CoD's problems, paying $50 for an unfinished game when you had all the information you needed to avoid it is your problem and yours alone.

[furbs]

Blackdog, that's some rose tinted glasses you got there.
Some of what you is spot on but some is way off the mark mate.
We wasn't told it was a unfinished sim till after release, are you just deciding to forget some of the stuff we was told?
The show at Kiev= bad performance is because of a lack of RAM. :rolleyes:
The epilepsy debacle.
nobody told us before release the sounds were a placeholder, same with the landscape colours and a host of other things.
Luthier has not spoken of FSAA since before the release and hasn't in this update.
Come on Blackdog, at least be fair and balanced with what you say, you make out the release and up to now has been plain sailing...it hasn't.
Don't you read the forums?

This patch is very welcome and im as excited as anyone, but this is just fixing what was broken and should of never been there in the first place and there is still a long way to go.

[Tvrdi]

See the latest update. The original sounds gnjaaaghhh

dude, I was posting this BEFORE Luthier posted the latest news....gees....btw, Im still waiting for his word about optimisations...

[TUSA/TX-Gunslinger]

"We also have a rather cool new major feature almost ready. It’s not going to make this patch. In order to keep the competitors squirming, we won’t say what it is until we’re ready to release it."

First time I've seen Luthier use this term (Oleg yes - Luthier no).

Yes, Luthier does have a competitor. Wonder if he'll be having dinner again with him soon?

S!

Gunny

[gflinch]

After reading all of this, hearing Jason's comment, thinking about it a few days, re-reading all the comments here, this is what I gather from the situation.

They gave Oleg 6 1/2 years to get something together and spent millions. Don't know why they gave him so much dev. time, I wouldn't have given them so much time and I like the people and the project.

Either Oleg was just soooooo picky and it never lived up to his "dream" or after 6 years of his life and diffrent things that he personally went through he just got tired/uninspired to work on the project any longer.

So whatever the situation the project was dumped in Luthier's lap and given 6 months to complete a sim that was never near completion (I think they probably did a number of RE-Writes to various portions and just never progressed out or "early alpha".

So all in all, I think Luthier is doing a good job. Maybe someone could give us a update a little more often, but then again there might not be much to offer over a weeks time. Other than still working on it.

Well thats just trying to look at it from many perspectives.

Greg

[nearmiss]

The COD team is still working on the application. IMO, that is as good as it gets.

I'm half way around the world, can I change anything? Can you? Can we?

Maybe we can with encouragement and being more patient. When I look at the videos made by BarFly I realize this is going to be one fabulous air combat sim when the dev pulls it together. I'm as anxious as every one of you, and have been for over six years.

http://www.avsims.com/cfsim/content/battle-britain-kanalkampf

The video is friggin' awesome, and it's made with Cliffs of Dover by BarFly Simulations.

[Rattlehead]

http://www.avsims.com/cfsim/content/battle-britain-kanalkampf

The video is friggin' awesome, and it's made with Cliffs of Dover.

Oh. My. Word.

I'm actually quite speechless...AMAZING video! How did they get the pilots to animate like that??

[nearmiss]

Oh. My. Word.

I'm actually quite speechless...AMAZING video! How did they get the pilots to animate like that??

At the end of the video, read his credits. He used animation software Daz and Poser, which animate human like characters very well.

It still takes talent to know how to place the characters into the video.

Yes, I agree BarFly has done some very excellent video. A real contribution to our community.

[Blackdog_kt]

Blackdog, that's some rose tinted glasses you got there.
Some of what you is spot on but some is way off the mark mate.
We wasn't told it was a unfinished sim till after release, are you just deciding to forget some of the stuff we was told?
The show at Kiev= bad performance is because of a lack of RAM. :rolleyes:
The epilepsy debacle.
nobody told us before release the sounds were a placeholder, same with the landscape colours and a host of other things.
Luthier has not spoken of FSAA since before the release and hasn't in this update.
Come on Blackdog, at least be fair and balanced with what you say, you make out the release and up to now has been plain sailing...it hasn't.
Don't you read the forums?

This patch is very welcome and im as excited as anyone, but this is just fixing what was broken and should of never been there in the first place and there is still a long way to go.

I'm not going by what they said, i'm going by what was common knowledge since the Russian release (not the gaming expo in Moscow, the actual March 25th release): there were some very specific issues that everybody here knew about within the first couple of days, because
a) some Russian fellows came here to post about it and
b) some western fellows were willing to spend $15 to buy the Russian version as a sneak preview while waiting for the EU release and they also told us all about it.

I distinctly remember it because i was on the verge of cancelling my pre-order and waiting for the first couple of patches, although i'm glad that i didn't cancel eventually. It's not in my imagination and if i wasn't a little bit pressed for time right now i would gladly go dig up the relevant threads and post the links here. CoD's initial problems were common knowledge alright, at least for us who frequent this here forum. Choosing to ignore the signs is a case of personal choices and outcomes first and foremost.

As for the sounds, in one of the Friday updates there was a small video showcasing the exhaust flame effects. There was a Spitfire next to a hangar, it would start up and the exhaust stacks were belching some flames and smoke. The video was clearly marked as "exhaust effects with placeholder sounds" and guess what it sounded like? The sounds that initially shipped with the sim ;-)

[furbs]

What was leaked by people after the russian release is one thing, being told by the developers before release is another.
Yes the sound in that update was described Oleg as placeholder and everyone ripped it apart, and as you say nobody thought it would ship like that! :grin:
All im saying is please dont dress it up.
Keep it real man...lol ;)

[kendo65]

I'm with Furbs on this one Blackdog.

That's how I remember it too

It wasn't all as clear as you're implying. Hindsight has made it seem much more obvious, but for every issue coming out of the Russian launch it was possible to come up with alternative explanations - I know because I did it. I decided that until I had it on my own PC I couldn't rule out people running with un-optimised settings, below spec HW etc, as reasons for the apparently bad performance. (With hindsight I can see that I did that because most of us had been doing similar for months already - constantly shooting down the opinions of Tree and the few others who picked up that there were possible issues. Trust and faith in the devs was a big factor too. I believed that if we were going to be served what was effectively a beta then they would spell it out)

Are you really saying that you and Tree were singing from the same hymn-sheet prior to the game launch (?!) and that the rest of us were mugs because we hoped for something better, because that's not how I remember it?

Your take on the Spit start-up sound has the feel of hindsight about it too - the obvious way to interpret Oleg's statement is that the sound in the video was a place-holder that would be switched to release-standard sound prior to launch, not that we could expect placeholder sound at launch :)

[Tree_UK]

I'm with Furbs on this one Blackdog.

That's how I remember it too (see my previous post : http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=327814#post327814
)

It wasn't all as clear as you're implying. Hindsight has made it seem much more obvious, but for every issue coming out of the Russian launch it was possible to come up with alternative explanations - I know because I did it. I decided that until I had it on my own PC I couldn't rule out people running with un-optimised settings, below spec HW etc, as reasons for the apparently bad performance.

Are you really saying that you and Tree were singing from the same hymn-sheet prior to the game launch (?!) and that the rest of us were mugs because we hoped for something better, because that's not how I remember it?

Your take on the Spit start-up sound has the feel of hindsight about it too - the obvious way to interpret Oleg's statement is that the sound in the video was a place-holder that would be switched to the release standard sound prior to launch, not that we could expect placeholder sound at launch :)

I dont remember many people at all singing from the same hymm sheet as me at the time, I was the resident baddy and all round Troll, sadly nothing as changed much there, I called it as i saw it and now forum members have reinvented the past to make it look like I was just shooting from the hip, i guess that is just human nature though.

[kendo65]

I dont remember many people at all singing from the same hymm sheet as me at the time, I was the resident baddy and all round Troll,

...

That's because you did it in such an annoying way mate ;)

You were incessant - like a bulldog with a bone - never let up - on and on and on...

(that's what it seemed like at the time anyway. You're right though - not much has changed...:) )

[lothar29]

Seen from my point of view, it is true that we do not have a finished Simulator, which has many problems, but someone is to wonder, who would take the baton to this great Simulator?. I think that many will think about neoqb, but they currently are not interested in the topic, they are more than delighted with the Flight of Riseo and I hope they continue on the path that lead, many years more. give my point of view as I say, this is time to start to reflect and give more support to the only people who are in our genre simulation, stop complaining, I think that LUTHIER, is an honest person, and this show with the latest update are working on it, and not stop us lying, I hope that people, will all the clients of the IL-2 are enough mind ripe as to understand that criticizing his work we cannot anything positive, "this I what I am applying to myself" that beginning by me, believe that we have been quite unfair to LUTHIER des progress of OLEG.
what I am trying to say is that it is becoming time to support this product orally and stop dirtying the image because does not work us well, because we all know that the issues be resolved sooner or later...


with regard to the development of the Simulator and its aircraft and the money to continue developing this beauty, we all know that if implmentaran purchase of RoF system would be a great solution for development of IL-2 and my personally not me mind, already paid by RoF aircraft and I think that if you listen to people it need not be bad...


a greeting

[Blackdog_kt]

What was leaked by people after the russian release is one thing, being told by the developers before release is another.
Yes the sound in that update was described Oleg as placeholder and everyone ripped it apart, and as you say nobody thought it would ship like that! :grin:
All im saying is please dont dress it up.
Keep it real man...lol ;)



I'm with Furbs on this one Blackdog.

That's how I remember it too

It wasn't all as clear as you're implying. Hindsight has made it seem much more obvious, but for every issue coming out of the Russian launch it was possible to come up with alternative explanations - I know because I did it. I decided that until I had it on my own PC I couldn't rule out people running with un-optimised settings, below spec HW etc, as reasons for the apparently bad performance. (With hindsight I can see that I did that because most of us had been doing similar for months already - constantly shooting down the opinions of Tree and the few others who picked up that there were possible issues. Trust and faith in the devs was a big factor too. I believed that if we were going to be served what was effectively a beta then they would spell it out)

Are you really saying that you and Tree were singing from the same hymn-sheet prior to the game launch (?!) and that the rest of us were mugs because we hoped for something better, because that's not how I remember it?

Your take on the Spit start-up sound has the feel of hindsight about it too - the obvious way to interpret Oleg's statement is that the sound in the video was a place-holder that would be switched to release-standard sound prior to launch, not that we could expect placeholder sound at launch :)

All i'm saying is you guys had a different interpretation of the same facts and were more interested in different features than i was.

If the writing was on the wall and all the people who were claiming release failure months ahead of time knew it, then how come the "negative-minded" people rushed to preorder while i was seriously thinking of cancelling my CE preorder (which i could only get if i didn't cancel, since i had a relative in the UK for a few months)?
Short answer: wishful thinking.
I knew there was trouble but i wanted the printed map and Spitfire manual, so i went ahead with it. Other people just assumed there would be no trouble because they wouldn't like it to be, even though they were predicting it. Sorry, i can't wrap my head around it and that prevents me from sympathizing with such a viewpoint.


Also, during the development phase i was paying closer attention to certain aspects that not many people cared about and when it was pretty clear that these new features would be part of the sim, i naturally thought "this will cost development time from other stuff".
So yes, i pretty much expected the kind of initial trouble we got and that's why i didn't consider it a big deal: i was sure it would be there in exchange for other, new stuff that i really wanted to see. And by really i mean that it would seriously diminish my opinion of the title if they weren't included.

Flying with old IL2 sounds for a few months in exchange for all the scripting goodness and foundation laid in terms of online campaign capabilities, plus the new CEM/DM and aircraft systems modeling? Glass half full for me, it's just a matter of time for the patches to complete the rest of the features.
Flying with perfect graphics and sounds right from the word go in exchange for an engine that lacks aforementioned foundation for long term development? Sure, i'd still buy and fly it, but it would be IL2:redux with no innovation in the long run. Glass half empty for me in this case and a much shorter attention span for the title.

In the end they went with the first option and i couldn't be happier about it.

I didn't expect things to be perfect neither did i expect them to be awful and due to what i considered more important i found things acceptable when looking at the bigger picture, even if i had to wait for two patches to get the sim to a playable state.
That's what also made it easier for me to accept the initial reports at face value and not assume something was wrong on the user's end. When we saw the gaming expo footage i thought "ok, PCs are under-specced and they have a bit more time to optimize things".
When i saw the footage and reports from the Russian release i thought "turns out they ran out of time and money to optimize things further because they were working on the other stuff i consider so important, no biggie, i'll wait".

In other words i knew there would be issues just like others did, i just considered it a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things (in contrast to them) when compared to what i did get under the hood of the sim. It's not about right or wrong, it's about what i like in terms of features and what other people like and these things called opinions tend to differ greatly among humans.
If someone tells me that AA doesn't work i won't put my blinders on and say "no it works". I'll just say "i don't care as long as i have cool new feature X in exchange for that and they add functional AA at a later date". Same for sounds, or any other feature that is among the first bits of sensory input i get from the game. That stuff is easier to gradually fix for a developer studio with the relevant experience.

It's the stuff that isn't immediately perceptible i care most about, because coming up with a new engine from scratch that can do things the previous one couldn't is the bulk of the work and can't be shoe-horned into a finished game at a later date.

We just have different priorities and jaggy aerial masts are pretty low on the list of mine, that's all there is to it.

[Blackdog_kt]

Also, thread clean up. Some of it was personal attacks, some was spam and some innocent bystanders got caught in the crossfire as well and made posts commenting on the above.

As a bit of extra information, inserting jabs that break the forum rules during one of those charming "exchanges" and then deleting the posts before they get a chance to be reported doesn't prevent moderators from viewing them anyway.

Watch your language, temper and smugness levels when dealing with other posters gentlemen. If these shenanigans keep going on the bans will be handed out in pairs or even teams to the offenders regardless of their opinions about CoD, just for the sake of being impartial and preventing point-scoring among the "duelists". It's not what we all believe and say, but how and with what kind of manners (or lack thereof).

Those of you responsible know what i'm talking about, either straighten up and fly right or find another place to throw your tantrums and play out your personal feuds.

Commenting on this post is not necessary regardless of negative/positive opinion: whether one wants to complain about it or high-five me please don't, it will only drag the discussion off-topic and back to the kind of posts i just had to delete...and then i'll have to delete the new posts too :-P

Let's play nice ;-)

[Codex]

The COD team is still working on the application. IMO, that is as good as it gets.

I'm half way around the world, can I change anything? Can you? Can we?

Maybe we can with encouragement and being more patient. When I look at the videos made by BarFly I realize this is going to be one fabulous air combat sim when the dev pulls it together. I'm as anxious as every one of you, and have been for over six years.

http://www.avsims.com/cfsim/content/battle-britain-kanalkampf

The video is friggin' awesome, and it's made with Cliffs of Dover by BarFly Simulations.

I have to say mate you've renewed my spark for COD with this post.

[sorak]

WHO CARES!!!!! Jesus. Conspiracy theory's, Facts, so bloody well WHAT! Why do people have to go digging this crap up? Haven't you got better things to do?

Go spend time with the missus, go for a walk etc? And by posting this crap, what do you think it is going to do? Bring the patch quicker? Or better yet A HUGE APOLOGY TO THE COMMUNITY? Like that will happen LMFAO! Head outta the ass i say. And move along.

For once I'd love to come to these forums with out all this sludge crap posts.

you know you dont have to read the forum post if you dont want to.... which only means you really want to read all this 'sludge crap posts' deep inside... which makes it even stranger for you complaining about it. I think it funny some people like to bring up the old "go spend time with the missus".. Are you trying to make your self look cool or something?

puff puff.. wierd stuff

[kendo65]

Blackdog - I'll grant that you are right to a degree in describing the conclusions I reached before release as 'wishful thinking. My only response would be that it was still possible to do that because the situation was confused. If the devs had spelt it out instead of various (sometimes conflicting) voices in the community I would have come to a different conclusion.

My only real reason for commenting on all this was that I (and obviously others) felt that the OP and yourself were rewriting history to some degree. We'll have to agree to disagree I think.

My point in going over this was not to complain about the state of the game at release. It was just to disagree with the idea voiced that it was all perfectly clear at the time.

I agree with your views about the complex future-proofed features and the continual improvement and development of the sim and I'm looking forward to the upcoming patch.

Time to move on.

[Madfish]

you know you dont have to read the forum post if you dont want to.... which only means you really want to read all this 'sludge crap posts' deep inside... which makes it even stranger for you complaining about it. I think it funny some people like to bring up the old "go spend time with the missus".. Are you trying to make your self look cool or something?

puff puff.. wierd stuff

He's 100% right though I think.

There is no filter for the forums. So you HAVE to at least check out some posts in random threads and you also need to scan through all the topics.

But then again, the people on the forums are usually (big apologies to the great exceptions) a very particular kind of people, to say it nicely. I guess it cannot be helped and usually is the same with any forum.

There are great people who just play and try to make the best out of it, not even showing up on the forums.
There are those who try to contribute positively to make things better.
And then there is the big zerg of... let's not get into it. Whiners and haters usually are addicted to to boards and voicing their "holy" opinions that usually don't matter, don't change a thing but at least they said something right? :-P

[Meusli]

Bit more info regarding this on Rock Paper Shotgun, not much but another piece of the jigsaw. Scroll down to near the bottom of the article.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/09/02/the-flare-path-severely-overloaded/

[senseispcc]

[QUOTE=winny;327842].

I got the feeling from some of his posts that he was trying to drag the sim into the 21st century, he knows what the people here want more than anyone.

[QUOTE]

This is the 21st century no? 2011.

[SadoMarxist]

Since I'm not at all well versed in economic mechanisms regarding investments, I hope someone can tell me which of the two following statements is closer to the truth:

a) If a person purchases a copy of ClOD Oleg gets a share of the income because he worked on this project very long .

b) If a person purchases a copy of ClOD Oleg gets nothing because he left the team for whichever reason before the product was released to the market.

Regarding the discussion related to the imperfect state of ClOD, once the engine is fixed properly it would certainly be a plus to have Oleg back on the team. From what I understand, the FM works but doesn't really meet the performance of the modeled aircraft. No amount of programing wizardry will help someone to get the performance just right without Oleg on board. For that matter, even hiring another aeronautical engineer will take too long to get things right because such a person wouldn't have Oleg's expertise in the field and would take a really long time to get up to speed. Why o why can't people understand that it is bad karma to offend a flight sim creating deity?

BTW, I'm sure that new appreciation is born for the famous "Oleg trees" now that the fancy schmancy looking trees are taking too much processing power for the collisions to be detected.

[Chivas]

Its hard to say....if Oleg still owns Maddox Games and has hired Luthier for the day to day operations....or Oleg sold Maddox Games, to IC.

[SadoMarxist]

Sorry, for this late feedback, I actually didn't have much to write about :)

Anyways, bought the game and figured I'd regret it when I install it. I didn't install it in a while for this reason and, when I finally did, it turned out to be better than I expected. Long story short, with the patch available through Steam and on a less than stellar machine it runs at an average of 30 FPS over the channel, less then that over cities. The price for this performance is paid in eyecandy offcourse. Flight models appear correct in their essence, can't say if the stationary performance values are met at this time. I still wish Oleg could come back on board. Thanks for the insight.

Its hard to say....if Oleg still owns Maddox Games and has hired Luthier for the day to day operations....or Oleg sold Maddox Games, to IC.