Blow up

[Tree_UK]

Ive been flying a fair bit recently, mainly the 109E3 on the syn full realism server. I have had many victories in the 109 but they are all hard fought, unless you are lucky enough to get a pilot kill you have to do many passes on a Hurri or Spit to bring it down or force it to leave the fight. I have never blown a wing off, or seen a plane blow up. I have sat right behind a spit just under its tail on many occasions and then slowy raised my nose and blasted it at point blank range with canons and mg's only to see the spit pull a hrad turn and start to battle with me. I have tried all different ammo load outs to the same effect. To me it seems something is definately wrong with the DM model.

[Ze-Jamz]

Hmm I don't know mate, this I always a hard debate.

Likewise I have seen 109's take countless 303 rounds and still turn and move like a bat out of hell, it's also hard to remember your playing a diff game from what were all used too an the DM's are miles apart.

I've smoked alot of spit n hurri's and have become a bit of a master at flaming Wellingtons and blennies with the 109's cannon and MG's to be fair but then have taken a beaten from allied fighters and still nursed my plane home.

Has anything been mentioned in regards to the DM's by the Devs? I can't recall

[MoGas]

Ive been flying a fair bit recently, mainly the 109E3 on the syn full realism server. I have had many victories in the 109 but they are all hard fought, unless you are lucky enough to get a pilot kill you have to do many passes on a Hurri or Spit to bring it down or force it to leave the fight. I have never blown a wing off, or seen a plane blow up. I have sat right behind a spit just under its tail on many occasions and then slowy raised my nose and blasted it at point blank range with canons and mg's only to see the spit pull a hrad turn and start to battle with me. I have tried all different ammo load outs to the same effect. To me it seems something is definately wrong with the DM model.

I agree. The DM needs some work, and i guess the know about. I guess the drag of a damaged wing is still too low. It cant be that a Spit or whatever, is able to make a hard brake left or right, with holes in one wing left or right, and the aircraft dosent start to stall over the damaged wing, after you nailed him hard with a E3 for example. I believe it is undermodeled.

Also I never have seen such explosions llike on a BF-109 when the Spit or Hurrie makes good hits on the 109`s engine or whatever is hit.

I fly multieplayer only on the SYN dedicated server, and it seems, that the DM is on some parts what get hit like "wings", are undermodeled.....on the Spit and Hurrie`s.....as well as on the 109`s but even more...

Its my point of view on this issue.... :)

[Vengeanze]

Tree, you should take lesson from the guys in 109 that get headshots on me almost every time I fly online.:-P

[Phazon]

I haven't been able to find any major faults in the damage model testing it offline. The different ammo types behave like they should, armour-piercing is more likely to cause internal damage, incendiaries have a chance to spark fires and HE rounds blow large holes in the aircraft skin.

I would not be surprised however if online was a bit buggier in recording damage. It is an incredibly complex system and I would not be surprised if it still needs some tweaking particularly for the online multiplayer.

[TomcatViP]

Yeah,

Mo gimme me back that skull pieces of mine.

From the headless pilot

~S

[Blackdog_kt]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it honestly. We're just having to adjust to a new standard after years of being conditioned to aircraft with multi-cannon batteries using more effective ammunition and a simpler DM model where putting enough rounds of any kind into a wing root was almost guaranteed to cause a kill.

Maybe the aerodynamic degradation effect of having the aircraft skin damaged needs a bit of tweaking, but other than that i don't think seeing frequent explosions would be very realistic for the kind of ammunition and guns our aircraft in CoD use, even the cannons: unless it's a minen-shell, it explodes on contact with the skin of the enemy aircraft and not inside the airframe, which means most of the shrapnel and shockwave is going to waste in the surrounding air.

That doesn't mean we should expect catastrophic damage once we get a 109E-4 with the right ammunition either, because the MG-FFs are slow firing and the shells have a low muzzle velocity. To put it simply, even if every 3rd round is a minen-shell it's still possible to miss with it and only score hits with the APs or tracers which will have an effect similar to the current ammo for the most part.

Long story short, unless we see aircraft equipped with Hispanos and Mg151s it doesn't make much sense to go spectacular on the explosions. In fact the current weapons showcase the DM perfectly because they allow a longer fight where we can observe the progressive nature of things, with systems failing one after another due to a common dependency or seeing the gradual degradation of performance, etc.

Best such moment i ever had was in a QMB mission a few months ago, i scored some hits on a Spit with the Mg17s and he started streaming a bit of white smoke, most probably a coolant leak.

Something was definitely wrong for him though because as i was ready to roll back into him and dive down for the killing shot after my initial pass, i saw him starting to incur extra damage without me shooting at him. Another streak appeared, this time a thin black one which was probably oil, then after a split-second he started streaming thick black smoke.
Closing in i saw half his exhaust pipes belching flames, he caught fire and went into the drink.

I still think it was one of the most realistic kills i've ever seen to date in any flight sim: coolant leak causing a rapid temperature increase due to high power settings used, temp increase forcing a pressure increase which busted the oil pipes, oil and coolant leak combined led to engine overheating in short order, damage to individual cylinders and fire, either inside the engine or due to gasoline fumes from the a leaking fuel tank (it's located between engine and pilot) getting ignited by the high temperatures caused by the overheating engine.

It was a true cascade of systems failing one after the other with the poor AI guy getting swamped and having no choice but to bail which was a very common way to be shot down too, since not all kills happened due to outright catastrophic damage. A lot of times the aircraft would just become inoperable due to internal systems damage, even if the airframe and structure remained intact for the most part.

From an engineering standpoint it was the single most believable kill i've ever seen unfold before my eyes in a PC flight sim and the timing/pacing of it all made it look just like old gun camera film too.

There's a lot of things that need fixing, but in all honesty the DM in terms of compartments modeled and their interactions/dependencies is almost certainly not one of them.

[Tree_UK]

Hmm I don't know mate, this I always a hard debate.

Likewise I have seen 109's take countless 303 rounds and still turn and move like a bat out of hell, it's also hard to remember your playing a diff game from what were all used too an the DM's are miles apart.

I've smoked alot of spit n hurri's and have become a bit of a master at flaming Wellingtons and blennies with the 109's cannon and MG's to be fair but then have taken a beaten from allied fighters and still nursed my plane home.

Has anything been mentioned in regards to the DM's by the Devs? I can't recall

I agree mate 100%, its definatley a 2 way street.

[FFCW_Urizen]

I agree. The DM needs some work, and i guess the know about. I guess the drag of a damaged wing is still too low. It cant be that a Spit or whatever, is able to make a hard brake left or right, with holes in one wing left or right, and the aircraft dosent start to stall over the damaged wing, after you nailed him hard with a E3 for example. I believe it is undermodeled.

seems i am unfortunate, whenever my wing gets shred to pieces or receives a minor hole, i am no longer as maneuverable as with a nondamaged wing and being on or offline doesn´t make any difference, neither does the plane. i´ve experienced that on a hurri, spit or 109.
and yes, whichever wing is damaged, leads to a stall on that wing.

[drewpee]

Ive been flying a fair bit recently, mainly the 109E3 on the syn full realism server. I have had many victories in the 109 but they are all hard fought, unless you are lucky enough to get a pilot kill you have to do many passes on a Hurri or Spit to bring it down or force it to leave the fight. I have never blown a wing off, or seen a plane blow up. I have sat right behind a spit just under its tail on many occasions and then slowy raised my nose and blasted it at point blank range with canons and mg's only to see the spit pull a hrad turn and start to battle with me. I have tried all different ammo load outs to the same effect. To me it seems something is definately wrong with the DM model.


+1

It's hard work in the 109. In the past a good 2 second blast will at least disable its ability to be a fret. I hope it's a bad DM and will be fixed. If not I for one need to be more disciplined in my style of dogfighting and not get suckered into a turn fight.

[trumps]

Tree ol mate, you are flying the wrong 109! The E 1 is an absolute deamon, I have been flying it a fair bit on the SYN server and it absolutely shreds anything I come up against, though I must admit to primarily aiming for the pit area of my intended targets. It has a load of ammo, and with my convergence set at 150m does a fine job of ruining the Tommy's day!

Craig

[Tree_UK]

Yeah maybe your right, i like to get in close as well, currently my convergence is 150 canon and 200 mg's, i will try the E1 at 150 like you suggested.

[bw_wolverine]

I have to agree with Blackdog about the damage model.

I've still been able to cause some explosions (wings taken off, fuel blows up, etc) with my .303s, but they're much more rare which I feel is as it should be.

I've had situations where prolonged 'exposure' to enemy fire has resulted in a Spitfire full of holes, but otherwise still operable. This is usually when I'm getting shot up from directly 6 o'clock. My controls get damaged, but not often does my engine start to suffer unless they get a lucky shot. More often, my guns get damaged (after one particular enemy attack which peppered my wings, I had only one gun left operable out of 8!)

Not so if I'm attacked with some deflection. If bullets strike my nose, I've got problems (engine and fuel are all up there!).

Perhaps some of the aerodynamics aren't perfect when dealing with airframe damage, but I still think the damage is leagues ahead of 1946.

You get your guns lined up and your shots on target from as close a distance as you can and hope for the best. If you can get the shots specifically at a vulnerable spot (fuel tanks, engine, etc) all the better. If I can get an enemy plane smoking or otherwise visibly in difficulty, I usually don't waste any more bullets on him if I absolutely don't have to. Physics will do the rest for me and I'll have more bullets for the next guy ;)

[trumps]

Yeah maybe your right, i like to get in close as well, currently my convergence is 150 canon and 200 mg's, i will try the E1 at 150 like you suggested.

Last week on the syndicate sever I tallied up 62 kills over 3 sessions, with I would guess just over 50% being bombers. For the loss of abot 3 planes, one of which I was killed in when I collided with a wimpy. This was all in an E1 with it 4 mg's. The thing is a beast in my opinion, best plane in the game!

I am by no means an expert, I just try to always fly to the planes strengths, and am patient, it's just like a game of chess the way I see it, forcing the enemy to fly the way you want him to ;)

Craig

[TomcatViP]

+1

It's hard work in the 109. In the past a good 2 second blast will at least disable its ability to be a fret. I hope it's a bad DM and will be fixed. If not I for one need to be more disciplined in my style of dogfighting and not get suckered into a turn fight.

Obviously guys you are not the ones I met that took out my pilot head

[drewpee]

Damaging things like control surfaces from a 6 attack might not kill the pilot but it should disable the ability to turn fight. Things like shredding the oil cooler (easy target) should seize the engine in no time. Pumping the wings full of holes and a plane is no longer as aerodynamic. Ive managed to escape and fly home with the wing of my 109 on fire. If the damage model was correct any one of these things should mean it's time to ditch or bail.

[Stealth_Eagle]

Reading through this section is fairly interesting for me. I, personally, am not the best fighter pilot you will run into but I know how to lead and be able to blow off wings of FW 200 with my secret custom belting (surprisingly, it actually is historical to an extent). As for the 109 damage model, it is quite well modeled personally and in my Jabo attack run against the British radar, I lost maybe about 2 feet off my right wing. It felt like I was going to spin out but I somehow returned back to my base safe and sound (perhaps because I can take damage better than the AI). So that is what I think would happen in real life because a bit back, a skyraider landed safely with only 1/2 of its right wing lost in a colision with a P 51.

[Crumpp]

Pumping the wings full of holes

Does not do much to the airplane.

[TomcatViP]

Personally I think the DM is great. It's just that ppl need to get used too as it seems there is hundreds of different combination.

The only thing that''s cld be corrected is the way it's so easy to land back a crippled plane. I think we all agree about. But I think this being alrdy assessed by devs.

Of course the new ammo belts are problematic too regarding the PK rates

[drewpee]

Does not do much to the airplane.


Please explain how shredded wings doesn't do much?:confused:

[Crumpp]

full of holes

Is not "shredded"....

I said wings full of rifle caliber bullet holes will not do much just because of the holes in the skin.

Check out hail damaged aircraft.....

Here is one with substantial wing damage from a SFSAM

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/oo-dll/4.shtml

[trumps]

Of course the new ammo belts are problematic too regarding the PK rates

I can't see any problem with the amount of pilot kills, the way I see it is that thesedays due to the level of detail in the damage model and how much harder it is to get a kill through spray and pray people are being a lot more selective about where they aim, I know I am! Engines and cockpits are the sweetspot on all aircraft types, I know that a half second burst in that area will do more critical damage than 3 seconds blazing away from your 6. Ammo loadouts do make a difference, but then again if you put your plane infront of someone elses bullets all the time you must expect for it to be shot down, no matter what loadout they use ;)

Craig

[TomcatViP]

Hi Craig,

As I wrote I don't believe anyone is able to pinpoint the cockpit crossing your line of fire at 400kph at 200m

I hve shown that the odds that the pilot is to be killed in that situation can't be higher than 30% and that it would hve been very unlucky to be PK that way three time in a raw (<3%)

IMHO this could be very annoying for new pilot to face immediate death as soon as someone in a 109 turn is nose in his direction. Tht's my point. I am not representing PETA here campaigning for cat's furs !;-)

[drewpee]

Is not "shredded"....

I said wings full of rifle caliber bullet holes will not do much just because of the holes in the skin.

Check out hail damaged aircraft.....

Here is one with substantial wing damage from a SFSAM

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/oo-dll/4.shtml

Seem I've misunderstood your misunderstanding.;-)

What I have seen is wings with multiple gaping holes all over with damage to ailerons and flaps. So much damage that there would be little chance that control line would survive and the AC is still capable of dogfighting? Objects to aim for during an attack include oil coolers radiators rudder/elevators and ailerons. Hitting any of these will at least remove the ability to effectively maneuver at best unflyable.

[Jabo2009]

Ive been flying a fair bit recently, mainly the 109E3 on the syn full realism server. I have had many victories in the 109 but they are all hard fought, unless you are lucky enough to get a pilot kill you have to do many passes on a Hurri or Spit to bring it down or force it to leave the fight. I have never blown a wing off, or seen a plane blow up. I have sat right behind a spit just under its tail on many occasions and then slowy raised my nose and blasted it at point blank range with canons and mg's only to see the spit pull a hrad turn and start to battle with me. I have tried all different ammo load outs to the same effect. To me it seems something is definately wrong with the DM model.

I tested ammo as well and:

YES the DM really needs some work...dont get me wrong I dont want to cut a wing with just one cannon blast as we could occasionally do in IL-2 46 but the fact, that it's sometimes taking 3 or more attempts to shoot a target down (good hits on every single attemp for about 2-3 secs) isnt realistic IMO.

also tried differnent ammo on different planes...but some of the planes dont fall/explode whatever even when your putting endless lead into them...

havent seen a single in game blowup by the way...

hope 1C will do further work on this

[esmiol]

it is not the DM who need fix... but the ego of some people :)

before to say that DM is not good... learn to shoot guys! and use the script to check if you really touch a vital point of the ennemy plane.

[CaptainDoggles]

and use the script to check if you really touch a vital point of the ennemy plane.

Is there a way to do this online?

[David198502]

i agree that its really hard to break off wings with the current ammunition.it only happened a few times for me when i shot at spits or hurris.but when i shoot any kind of bombers, or even the defiant its really easy to saw one wing off.its only really hard with hurris and spits.
to make big fireballs out of planes is no problem at all.especially the hurris tend to explode,but also the spits.though they dont really explode, but become fireballs and after some seconds they just burn but still in one piece. i found the beobachtungs-bullets very helpful to set planes on fire.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

it is not the DM who need fix... but the ego of some people :)

before to say that DM is not good... learn to shoot guys! and use the script to check if you really touch a vital point of the ennemy plane.

Which script? I would be very much interested to get a debriefing about my shooting performance

[Norseman]

-try this one Gentlemen.
Cross country mission: Select a Spit or Hurrie. After takeoff, attack those fuel tanks by the field. Big explosions :)
Then, start up in a Bf109 or even a 110 an do the same action..

~s~ :)