Sniper MGFF

[TomcatViP]

I have been PKed by 109 on 3 occasions both online and offline with the same scenario :

I am flying my beloved hurri
Banking and turning hard toward an attacking 109 to give him angle
Distance > 200m
First shot head blown off

I know that first versions of IL2 had some prob too with the PK occurrence. Are we facing the same problem ?

From the headless pilot

Thx

[Masi67]

You are kiddin right:) Or do you mean that you should survive after lucky hit to head from 20mm? :)


I have been PKed by 109 on 3 occasions both online and offline with the same scenario :

I am flying my beloved hurri
Banking and turning hard toward an attacking 109 to give him angle
Distance > 200m
First shot head blown off

I know that first versions of IL2 had some prob too with the PK occurrence. Are we facing the same problem ?

From the headless pilot

Thx

[Ze-Jamz]

I have been PKed by 109 on 3 occasions both online and offline with the same scenario :

I am flying my beloved hurri
Banking and turning hard toward an attacking 109 to give him angle
Distance > 200m
First shot head blown off

I know that first versions of IL2 had some prob too with the PK occurrence. Are we facing the same problem ?

From the headless pilot

Thx

I dont think you have anything to worry about mate

[TomcatViP]

Thx for your answer guys but I repeat : first shot -> head blown off.

it's not abt being hit and pkd it's abt being Pkd then being Hit in a rather difficult firing solution (vertical spiral).

I know that I hve large ankles :rolleyes: but I am far from having a brain as large as the wing span of a hurri (at least before being crushed).

[CaptainDoggles]

Ever since I started loading with armor-piercing (SmK, H) ammo I've noticed the rate of pilot-killing shots has gone way up in my sorties.

[Phazon]

Ever since I started loading with armor-piercing (SmK, H) ammo I've noticed the rate of pilot-killing shots has gone way up in my sorties.

Which brings me to my question - is it right for everyone to be able to load up the best ammunition available even though it was available in questionable quantities? It tends to skew the effectiveness of the planes somewhat past their historical levels, as people care more about getting the kill than they do sticking to historical loadouts. :P

[CaptainDoggles]

Which brings me to my question - is it right for everyone to be able to load up the best ammunition available even though it was available in questionable quantities? It tends to skew the effectiveness of the planes somewhat past their historical levels, as people care more about getting the kill than they do sticking to historical loadouts. :P

I think honestly that if you feel the other guy's ammo is making the difference, you need to re-evaluate your flying. I never said my overall victory rate has increased, only that the percentage of pilot kills is higher. Bouncing an unaware enemy or getting good position is always going to trump having ammo that someone considers to be "uber".

Besides, it's a trade-off. AP rounds are great for canopy and engine cowling, but awful for blowing off wings. There are other, better suited rounds for that sort of work.

[Phazon]

There is a massive difference in the effectiveness of the weapons on an aircraft depending on the ammunition used. Sure pilot marksmanship accounts for something but you cannot say there is no appreciable difference between the standard rounds and specially manufactured ammunition such as the SmK H which uses tungsten carbide (not exactly a common material) and the De Wilde round which if actually available was only loaded in a single gun.

I only use SmK H rounds because its superior to the standard SmK round. I have 4 of the browning MGs loaded with De Wilde rounds because its much more effective than the standard incendiary/tracer round and I never use the standard .303 round because its pointless to use over an AP round.

It would be ideal if the game had an optional ammunition limiter which stopped you from abusing special ammunition types that historically weren't common at all. At least to keep the historical lot happy. :)

[drewpee]

I like to fly the 109 and and use the vertical plane against Hurrys and Spitts turning fight. I often spend to much time in the fight and loose E. The fight mostly ending with me stalling out. But when I get it rite it's magic. Cutting across a turn fighters path racking his unprotected top side. I reckon a lot of pilots would get frustrated dieing that way, after all the spit is faster and turns better. Imagine yanking back on your stick expecting the hun to do the same only to find the cheeky blighter is cutting across your turn with a tonne of whack, trying a high angle shot.:-D

[Ze-Jamz]

I like to fly the 109 and and use the vertical plane against Hurrys and Spitts turning fight. I often spend to much time in the fight and loose E. The fight mostly ending with me stalling out. But when I get it rite it's magic. Cutting across a turn fighters path racking his unprotected top side. I reckon a lot of pilots would get frustrated dieing that way, after all the spit is faster and turns better. Imagine yanking back on your stick expecting the hun to do the same only to find the cheeky blighter is cutting across your turn with a tonne of whack, trying a high angle shot.:-D

Amen to that brother :)

[Varrattu]

I have been PKed by 109 on 3 occasions both online and offline with the same scenario :

I am flying my beloved hurri
Banking and turning hard toward an attacking 109 to give him angle
Distance > 200m
First shot head blown off

I know that first versions of IL2 had some prob too with the PK occurrence. Are we facing the same problem ?

From the headless pilot

Thx

Hi TomcatViP,

possibly the easiest way to find an answer is:

Take a 109 and attack a hurri. When the hurri banks and turns to give you angle shoot at him. If you manage similar head shots you are right.

Happy hunting

Varrattu

[TomcatViP]

Hi Varra,

I do it a lot when flying 109 loaded with standard ammo and don't get so much Pk. In fact I have to actually target the cockpit to get a Pk what needs me to get really close. In a merge situation at that range and with angles I doubt this being intentional ;)

As Doggle and others said the nbr of Pk seems to hve skyrocketed with the new ammo. I am not contesting other abilities.

I don't know how bullets hits in game regarding to target's aspect ratio but although wars kills a lot it might need a slight tuning here.

~S!

[Attila]

I think it´s a kind of tactics! In 1946 i was always shooting on wings, here in COD it´s useless to shot on wings! i changed my tactics here and most the time i am aiming on the engine or cockpit! thats a good way to kill the engine or maybe the pilot!:cool:

[TomcatViP]

In a merge situation at that range and with angles I doubt this being intentional ;)

it's not abt being hit and pkd it's abt being Pkd then being Hit in a rather difficult firing solution (vertical spiral).


~S!

pls read the above :cool:

[jojovtx]

In my 110 I have mainly AP ammo loaded. My 4xlmg are belted AP,AP,I,AP,I,T or some variant thereof. My 2xMGFF are belted AP, AP, AP-I, AP-I, HE. I have bounced many a hurry from their low six and with all that AP, concentrated in the nose to converge at 200m, will just plow through any armor plating or aircraft components. AP is simply the most effective way to down aircraft by obliterating the crew. Heartless I know yet very effective and in my 110 I haven't much time to play before the odds are quickly stacked against me.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Thx for your answer guys but I repeat : first shot -> head blown off.



Would your head actually get blown off by a 20mm round?

I mean if the round hit the canopy wouldn't it detonate and fill the cockpit with shards of high velocity plexiglass and shell fragments which would just shred anything in it's path?

Or if if actually hit your head would the round detonate or would the round just pass through it at 2000-odd fps? How sensitive are the fuses on the 20mm rounds?

I supose if there was a slight delay the round would arm on hitting the canopy and next few milliseconds would be sure to ruin your day!

Cheers!

[Varrattu]

Okay, accuracy of the aircraft weapons is paramount. To that end this involves modeling every round, ensuring accurate trajectories, using accurate ammo sequencing (belting), and providing an accurate collision detection and terminal ballistics system... ...

I think we have to ask ourselves how real do we want the game to be. Most people who play this game seriously would say as real as possible. I think the BF109 is extreme realistic!

Most people who have prior iL2 experience would also say that in certain situations not the the game is the problem, but the pilot. Depending the accuracy of deflection shooting, about 30 MG17 S.m.K.h.armor piercing projectiles per second are more than enough for a PK, even in Cliffs of Dover. Under certain condition, S.m.K.h./AP rounds punch clear through the aircraft, hopefully through something critical, at best a pilot kill.

Information concerning the real life ammunition of Luftwaffe you find here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/60048823/Munitionsvorschrift-Fur-Fliegerbordwaffen-Germany-1942#

Regards Varrattu

(Do please excuse the grammatical errors, English is not my mother tongue.)

[TomcatViP]

...I think the BF109 is extreme realistic!



OOOooh yes it is and we all love that !

Each time I am boarding one in CoD I want to say my grace





about 30 MG17 S.m.K.h.armor piercing projectiles per second are more than enough for a PK



Hummm let's do the maths ;-)

400kph = 111m/s

bw each round (at 30rd/s) my hurri cross 3 m of your line of signt at a 200m distance.

My head (well some days whan I am bragging abt myself) hve a 30cm diameter. 3 m = 300cm vs 30cm -> 10% chance to be hit in the head in such situation ;-)

if you take into account the explosive charge with a radius of human kill of 1m (with no armoured glasses and no rear armoured plate) -> 30% chance



Information concerning the real life ammunition of Luftwaffe you find here:




thx



(Do please excuse the grammatical errors, English is not my mother tongue.)



many of us are what would be an English teacher worst nightmare :rolleyes:

[CaptainDoggles]

Folks it's best not to get too caught up in this. Ammo is a trade-off. You can blow wings off of fighters without any cannons if you use the beobachtung rounds but they're rubbish for penetrating canopies and engines.

Ultimately it's the pilot that makes the difference. If you're dying a lot it's because you are using unsuitable tactics when you engage, or are being caught at a disadvantage.

Stop going for head-ons, start checking 6. Stop lone-wolfing it, start bringing a wingman.

[Redroach]

Umm is this topic, all 3 pages, really about a single lucky shot? I mean, have you been able to reproduce this in any way?
I don't care if it was in a 'vertical downward spiral' or shortly before the jump to light speed. A lucky shot is a lucky shot.

[TomcatViP]

3 time in less than an hour ;-)

PK at first shot while maneuvring

[TomcatViP]

The "omg, they need to play the way I want them to lot" needs a limiter to stop

I don't think a 100% of chance to be PK in the conditions I described is anything about realisms.

[CaptainDoggles]

I don't think a 100% of chance to be PK in the conditions I described is anything about realisms.

How many times have you repeated it under the exact same conditions?

If it's anything less than 500 you can take your percentages and throw them out the window.

100% chance of PK? :rolleyes:

[JG4_Helofly]

How many times have you repeated it under the exact same conditions?

If it's anything less than 500 you can take your percentages and throw them out the window.

100% chance of PK? :rolleyes:

+1

[TomcatViP]

Dear Doggles,

If I show that a ceiling estimation of the chance to be Pk is 30% with absurd reasoning (I estimated that the enmy plane could each time hit the fuselage at 200m without taking into account the much larger surface of the wings) and explain that it has happen 3 time in less than an hour (this means simultaneously - I don't dye that much - in fact my death rate has skyrocketed since the introduction of the new ammo) there is something wrong.

reminder :
3 time at 30% chance means that I should have 0.3x0.3x0.3 = 0.027 = 2.7% chances to get killed that way 3 time in a row :rolleyes:

Regards,

TcViP

Regarding the 500 times trial pls do the test with a coin toss. You'll see rapidly (at 5 to 10 try) that the chance even itself pretty rapidly around ... 50% ! Upon to you to tests it 490 times more :rolleyes:

[TomcatViP]

Don't tell me that you can target the cockpit of a hurri that cross your line of sight at 200m flying 400kph right at 90°

.... or I will call you a Texan ;-)

Do you see that fly atop the ridge right across the valley ?

[CaptainDoggles]

in fact my death rate has skyrocketed since the introduction of the new ammo) there is something wrong.What introduction of new ammo? The armor-piercing rounds have been in the game since it was released. Are you saying your death rate has skyrocketed since you purchased the game?

Regarding the 500 times trial pls do the test with a coin toss. You'll see rapidly (at 5 to 10 try) that the chance even itself pretty rapidly around ... 50% ! Upon to you to tests it 490 times more :rolleyes:Coin tosses are completely unrelated to the percent chance of a bullet killing a pilot. Nice strawman argument.

[TomcatViP]

With only 3 as your sample size, flip the coin 3x and see your results, now do this 10x (for 30 flips) and see what your results are.

And yes, I can hit a cockpit of someone 200m in front of me, if my plane is going straight, and you are curving your plane into mine giving me a flat profile! That's not a challenging shot. I'll probably also hit lots of engine, and fuselage, but would bet I've got plenty of bullets hitting the cockpit also.

It's not always the angle on bow of deflection that makes it hard, its the change in angle. Also, keep in mind, these cockpits are TINY, not like the huge American cockpits later in the war. Almost any hit on the cockpit should hit pilot.


Ahh there you are right. You score hits and some of them got in the pilot head.

The prob I see for now is that each time there is a hit the first bullet goes right in the pilot's head. Tht's not quite realistic.

@CheeseHawk : I suspect the so-called mine shed ammo

[Blackdog_kt]

Minen-shells are in the sim but not used by any of the fighters yet.

[Varrattu]

Hummm let's do the maths ;-)

400kph = 111m/s



Hi tomca,

I'm sure you you're gonna love this:



How do bullets fly?

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm#Figures



Regards

Varrattu

[VO101_Tom]

Is not attached to the topic tightly, but according to me this would like... :cool:
http://youtu.be/QfDoQwIAaXg

[TomcatViP]

Thx very much guys for the excellent links.
:-D

[justme262]

Well, I think there has to be disadvantages to each ammunition type, although I haven't really found them yet. I would tend to think that production on the less effective types continued for some reason, as it couldn't be that much harder to make a dedicated production line for one "uber-ammo" than have different lines for each.

I think the only "advantage" to normal ball ammo was only that it was cheap and available. There was no performance advantage. The armor piercing and incendiary ammo used more expensive materials and was not available in large enough numbers to be used exclusively. So I think it would be unhistorical and an unfair advantage to load up all armor piercing incendiary rounds.

[TomcatViP]

JA that is my point ! :-D

we need a fixed % as a limit.

Pls note that I am a 109 driver too (50/50 109 & Hurri)

[TomcatViP]

He he I am not saying that I do not want to dye but only that the rate of Pk seems way out of proportion.

I am not finger pointing any category of player that can aim better than myself. Pls be sure of that. :)

However it could be interesting to link the number of sniper ammo available in any belt like the AP round to the effective kill ratio of the player (until pilot death) to emulate the foggy vision the Luftwaffe had of a democracy.

~S!

[CaptainDoggles]

I think the only "advantage" to normal ball ammo was only that it was cheap and available. There was no performance advantage. The armor piercing and incendiary ammo used more expensive materials and was not available in large enough numbers to be used exclusively. So I think it would be unhistorical and an unfair advantage to load up all armor piercing incendiary rounds.

Non-armor-piercing ammo puts a more ragged hole in anything it can penetrate. So for "soft" parts of the aircraft (thin metal skin, wooden stuff, fabric control surfaces etc.) the AP rounds leave a nice clean hole whereas the non-AP rounds tend to shred it a little better.

If you've got cannons the point might be moot.

[CaptainDoggles]

the rate of Pk seems way out of proportion

It's out of proportion in comparison to what data?

[CaptainDoggles]

I dunno about who has better aim, or if one belt is so much more viable than any other. My 109 belt currently is:

...I found that if I put the observer and/or tracer rounds at the beginning of the belt for one gun and the end of the belt for another gun it makes it a little easier to aim. Try it out. Instead of two simultaneous tracers you have them alternating out of each gun.

With the observer rounds it probably won't make as much of a difference but it might make observer strikes more evenly distributed. :cool:

Flying tactically will solve any advantages someone might have with their ammo. Staying out from in front of their guns is a bigger deal to me than what they load their guns with! ;)This was the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread.

[CaptainDoggles]

http://cdn.thenextweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hi.jpg

[TomcatViP]

It's out of proportion in comparison to what data?

Have you read me so far ?:confused:

pls take a look of the above. (3pk in less than an hour (100% odds vs 3% as"calculated") each time the first bullet flew right in the head (what I call Pk then hit)

Damn do I need an automate to write further in this thread ? ;-) (see the new Tc&Vip bellow)

[drewpee]

Have you read me so far ?:confused:

pls take a look of the above. (3pk in less than an hour (100% odds vs 3% as"calculated") each time the first bullet flew right in the head (what I call Pk then hit)

Damn do I need an automate to write further in this thread ? ;-)

Soooo you got shot in the head rite?;-)

[TomcatViP]

Soooo you got shot in the head rite?;-)

Yeah . do you think this has any effect on my vision of things ... :-P;-)

Where is Raiiid ? We need his advice here ;-)

[CaptainDoggles]

Have you read me so far ?:confused:

pls take a look of the above. (3pk in less than an hour (100% odds vs 3% as"calculated") each time the first bullet flew right in the head (what I call Pk then hit)

Damn do I need an automate to write further in this thread ? ;-) (see the new Tc&Vip bellow)

Either you don't understand the concepts of probability and odds, or you are being misleading.

Getting 3 PKs in an hour does not magically make it "100% odds of getting a PK".

[Varrattu]

I agree with TomcatViP, it is impossible to kill a pilot three times in one hour! One head shot was actually enough to kill a pilot for his whole life. :(

Happy hunting

Varrattu

[drewpee]

OK I must admit one nite on the Repka islands of doom server wile flying a 109, I was flying in the vertical and recking havoc on the fellers flying Spits and Hurrys. That was until some traitor in a 109 with RAF markings PK'd me 3 times in a row. The thing is every time I didn't think ether of use had a guns solution. I did manage to bring him down and IMA my flight skills were superior to his.
Any how I just put it down to luck or maybe a lag issue but must admit I thought at the time maybe he had some sort of cheat enabled. It was only the one time and I haven't had a run of PKs since. If it is a cheat it's not wide spread.

[TomcatViP]

Either you don't understand the concepts of probability and odds, or you are being misleading.

Getting 3 PKs in an hour does not magically make it "100% odds of getting a PK".

Really ? 3 out of 3 does not makes 100% here ?

Damn do I hve to dig out my old Ti57 for that :|

(just to make some fun out of this thread)

[TomcatViP]

Sry Haw but it has been a full 10 days since I last played CoD. Server was Exclusively the Syndicate.

Hopefully I think I will be able to log some flight in the next days. I will try to reproduce the experience. If you or anyone see me flying lazily in front of their visor : for the sake of sciences KILL ME !

[TomcatViP]

Ok. I hve been shot at on a couple of occcasion since 1.03 beta patch in my hurri by 109s.

I did not get any PK even affer an extensive shooting from my 6 low.

My guess is that things hve been tuned down.

Pls do report here if you get PKed

~S!

[Ze-Jamz]

I've gotten PK'd, mostly by the damn bombers. All in all, haven't noticed any change in % of times my pilot's been killed or wounded though. I think they have increased the pilot skill of the AI bombers on ATAG though.

Yes they have, although from experience it looks like certain maps have different skill levels..seems that way anyway

[TomcatViP]

it's better now IMOHO