UFO's and extra-terrestrial life

[Rattlehead]

I've always found this an interesting topic, and usually pretty much everyone seems to have an opinion on whether UFO's and extra-terrestrials exist or not.

Do UFO's exist? Did something alien really crash at Roswell? Did something strange really land at Rendelsham Forest? (Sp?) Have aliens colonised this planet before? Have they visited? Are abductions real? Did the US government reverse-engineer alien technology and incorporate it into experimental airctraft?

Or are aliens and extra-terrestrial life forms nothing more than our modern-day fairies and goblins? Figments of wild imaginations and paranoia?

Discusions please.

[patrat1]

of course ets exist. the universe is so friggin immense its pretty much a given that theres litterlly millions of civilizations out there.


the bad news is that einstiens probaly right about faster than light travel. which means in effect, that all those civilizations are forever effectivly isolated from one another. the well known fermi paradox seeems to back this line of reasoning.

[Sternjaeger II]

of course ets exist. the universe is so friggin immense its pretty much a given that theres litterlly millions of civilizations out there.


the bad news is that einstiens probaly right about faster than light travel. which means in effect, that all those civilizations are forever effectivly isolated from one another. the well known fermi paradox seeems to back this line of reasoning.

+1

Einstein's theory that we can't go faster than the speed of light in the conventional space as we have it now has apparently recently been confirmed by a Cambridge researcher, it's all about experimenting with new dimensions.

Maybe one day we will receive their radio waves, but either we haven't been able to decipher them again or they're still too far.

As for Unidentified Flying Object, yes, they exist for sure, let's not forget that they aren't necessarily related to alien life though.

[Rattlehead]

As for Unidentified Flying Object, yes, they exist for sure, let's not forget that they aren't necessarily related to alien life though.

Yeah, a distinction should be drawn between the two. A UFO doesn't neccessarily mean alien, just unidentified.

[TeeJay82]

well... we could not go through mountains until the tunnel was invented either right?

i bet there are more than 4 dimensions out there in space and one of em will have different rules for space time and matter...

subspace FTW!!

one day, im sure humanity will GTFO of this rock... unless we destroy ourselves due to greed before that happens :P

no smartass comments please :P im only a humble welder with my own oppinions :P

so if black holes can break the speed of light rule with gravity, so can we

[TheDawg]

I guy I grew up with- his dad was a B-52 jockey towards the end of the war- the first time a rocket propelled cannon platform came up thru their formation, took out a bomber and vanished, panic does NOT quite cover the hysteria that over took the entire groupe.
After debriefing none of the crews were allowed to talk about it, but they did, initially it was simply assumed the germans had some futuristic buck rogers rocketship type thing, maybe they had a base on the moon, the theorys were wild and speculative to say the least, but we were all doomed, lol.

UFO

[Skoshi Tiger]

It all depends. If we live in an infinite universe, then everything that is possible exists so the answer is yes BUT if we live in a finite universe then there is a possiblity that we are alone.

I think that the reason we haven't met haven't met any ET's is that they saw us first and have put us on their ignore list.

Cheers!

[TheDawg]

There is but one problem pondering the infinite.
We are finite creatures.
Therefore nearly incapable of understanding, let alone relating to the infinite.

[Mr Logic]

All belief systems are reliant on an absence of proof.

Without establishment of truth via all of the five human senses any thought construct can be deemed to be therefore untruth.

See Immanuel Kant's 'Critique of Pure Reason' for reference to the a priori continuance of a particle from second to second.

[CharveL]

The universe is demonstrably finite and expanding, for about 13 - 14 billion years.

Although we are finding an abundance of extra-solar planets, many of which reside in the potentially "habitable" zone, we are also learning that there is an increasingly daunting number of factors that must coincide to form life as we have defined it, and exponentially more still for it to evolve even to our point. Even then, with intelligence and technology do they even want to reach out to anyone else?

Black holes don't do anything that breaks the speed of light.

Our universe may be an expanding bubble amongst other bubble universes but even if we could travel to them we'd likely die instantly if physics principles vary even slightly to those defined in the birth of our own.

Perhaps in lieu of traveling faster than the speed of light (even approaching it slows time and increases mass) these "aliens" could bend space-time to get around but good luck with that. Possible, perhaps. Likely, not a chance.

Now, consider the past say, 10 years pretty much everyone and their grandmother has a cellphone with a camera in it. Consider the past 40-50 years since the UFO first became popularized and made us want to be believers. No definitive photos or video. I can understand it being rare but not one video of a craft landing in a field with a big-eyed lanky grey alien stepping out to take a two-stream piss on their way to some Tatooine canteen.

Conclusion: unless you are religiously attracted to the alien phenomenon by faith and ignore logic and statistical data, one has to conclude that alien visitation to this planet is very unlikely.

To each their own but some people with little money and sense, and a faith in things like destiny and fate, love to spend money on lottery tickets as well.

[Wolf_Rider]

Faster than light not possible?

Try this... imagine a train carriage hurtling along at the speed of light and you are just a passerby watching this.
At the rear of the carriage is a chap who throws a ball to another chap at the front of the carriage; that ball is travelling faster than the speed of light.
As an observer, within the carriage, it would appear that there is just one chap throwing a ball to another chap.

There "relativity" was born

A similar thing can be seen with a carousel and two people at opposite sides throwing a ball to each other. To a viewer on the Carousel, the ball appears to go straight, but, when viewed from above, the ball travels in a curve. (corioli effect)

The Fourth dimension is time and us 3 dimensional criters see the shadow of that as "inside/ outside" (but it is both at the same instant - no beginning, no end)

[Sternjaeger II]

Faster than light not possible?

Try this... imagine a train carriage hurtling along at the speed of light and you are just a passerby watching this.

yeah, imagine you're in the Batmobile with Wonderwoman.. that's pretty much the same grounds in terms of that theory's validity..

[ATAG_Dutch]

Do UFO's exist? - Yes but they aren't alien
Did something alien really crash at Roswell? - No
Did something strange really land at Rendelsham Forest? - Maybe but not alien
Have aliens colonised this planet before? - No
Have they visited? - No
Are abductions real? - No
Did the US government reverse-engineer alien technology and incorporate it into experimental airctraft? - No

Or are aliens and extra-terrestrial life forms nothing more than our modern-day fairies and goblins? - Yes
Figments of wild imaginations and paranoia? - Yes

What Charvel just said plus;

Out of the millions of species on this planet, homo sapiens is unable to communicate in an intelligible way with any but their own species. Some might even debate that point.

Yet we seem to think we can communicate with so called 'alien life forms'. SETI? Ridiculous waste of time, money and brainpower. What are the chances of anything out there being at exactly the right point in its technological development to receive and/or respond to any electromagnetic signal? Out of the billions of years since the formation of the universe, the Human race has had radio technology for what, 110 years? Just seems a bit naive to me. Come to that, what if all alien life is vegetable or viral? Or pink elephants?

If life comes about so easily, then why is our entire solar system devoid of life but for here? They also spend untold amounts of cash going back to Mars again and again in the search for evidence of the potential for life in the past, present or future. It isn't there.
Then the theorists turn to a warm ocean under the ice of Europa as being the next inline for a visit. Then to Titan as being a future life bearing moon with its alternative life-friendly chemistry.

It all boils down to people being unable to accept that this is it. This is all there is. Life's a bitch and then you die etc.

Fairies and goblins is bang on.

Having said that, my bookshelves are full of science fiction. I love it, but that's what it is, fiction.

Blimey, I think I just had a bit of a rant. Sorry chaps!:-D

[retrojet]

I guy I grew up with- his dad was a B-52 jockey towards the end of the war- the first time a rocket propelled cannon platform came up thru their formation, took out a bomber and vanished, panic does NOT quite cover the hysteria that over took the entire groupe.
After debriefing none of the crews were allowed to talk about it, but they did, initially it was simply assumed the germans had some futuristic buck rogers rocketship type thing, maybe they had a base on the moon, the theorys were wild and speculative to say the least, but we were all doomed, lol.

UFO

The B-52 would have been quite a surprise for the Germans, too!
:-D

[CharveL]

Faster than light not possible?

Try this... imagine a train carriage hurtling along at the speed of light and you are just a passerby watching this.
At the rear of the carriage is a chap who throws a ball to another chap at the front of the carriage; that ball is travelling faster than the speed of light.
As an observer, within the carriage, it would appear that there is just one chap throwing a ball to another chap.

There "relativity" was born

A similar thing can be seen with a carousel and two people at opposite sides throwing a ball to each other. To a viewer on the Carousel, the ball appears to go straight, but, when viewed from above, the ball travels in a curve. (corioli effect)

The Fourth dimension is time and us 3 dimensional criters see the shadow of that as "inside/ outside" (but it is both at the same instant - no beginning, no end)

Nope, sorry. Doesn't work like that. For one, as you approach the speed of light your mass becomes infinite. Time will adjust so that the speed of light is never exceeded.

If you are talking relative to another object, sure. a light beam going one way compared to a light beam traveling the other will add up to twice the speed of light but the point is neither in themselves will exceed it. You cannot throw the ball any faster than the speed of light in your example.

The experimental evidence for this is already out there.

[Sternjaeger II]

What Charvel just said plus;

Out of the millions of species on this planet, homo sapiens is unable to communicate in an intelligible way with any but their own species. Some might even debate that point.


erm, we can have forms of basic communication with other animals actually.


Yet we seem to think we can communicate with so called 'alien life forms'. SETI? Ridiculous waste of time, money and brainpower. What are the chances of anything out there being at exactly the right point in its technological development to receive and/or respond to any electromagnetic signal? Out of the billions of years since the formation of the universe, the Human race has had radio technology for what, 110 years? Just seems a bit naive to me. Come to that, what if all alien life is vegetable or viral? Or pink elephants?


lol that's a bit generic man! Considering that the faster way of transmitting data that we have at the moment in space is light and radio waves, I reckon it's worth a try. Our first radio waves are roughly 80 light years away from our planet as we speak, not much, but it's a start.


If life comes about so easily, then why is our entire solar system devoid of life but for here? They also spend untold amounts of cash going back to Mars again and again in the search for evidence of the potential for life in the past, present or future. It isn't there.
Then the theorists turn to a warm ocean under the ice of Europa as being the next inline for a visit. Then to Titan as being a future life bearing moon with its alternative life-friendly chemistry.

it's all fascinating speculation, they're not gonna go nowhere anytime soon. If by 2030 they really make it to mars I'd be well impressed, not for the achievement per se, but because I expect modern society to fail way before that date.

It all boils down to people being unable to accept that this is it. This is all there is. Life's a bitch and then you die etc.

Fairies and goblins is bang on.

Having said that, my bookshelves are full of science fiction. I love it, but that's what it is, fiction.


it's obvious that our society is not ready for space exploration, simply because we can't live in peace on this planet as it is. But it's within human nature to ask questions: 1000 years ago they couldn't explain what a lightning is, so it was "god", now we have different horizons. You can't just sit back and relax, I find the research they do very fascinating, and worth spending more money than wars for sure.


Blimey, I think I just had a bit of a rant. Sorry chaps!:-D

It's ok, it's friday, time to hit the pub me thinks! ;-)

[CharveL]

I disagree about human civilization destroying itself. That's an echo that reverberates through the generations past the sixties when it was hip to emote self-loathing. These subsequent generations also tend to be myopic, understandably just as any generation, without anything to compare their times with.

Humanity is far more resilient than we give ourselves credit for, and has progressed in too many positive ways that the doom-and-gloom crowd choose to ignore when forming their world views.

However, with that said, technology advancement has not only grown but accelerated over the past 100 years which makes society's response time too "laggy" to adjust and react quickly enough. Also, it will take some time to settle out as a pan-global society that largely polices itself, not out of moral or religious values (actually a negative force against stability as it's used inevitably for control by few individuals over the many) but out of economic practicality.

[TheDawg]

The B-52 would have been quite a surprise for the Germans, too!
:-D


lawl :grin:
See what happens when you listen to pop rock groups from Georgia while posting?

[TheDawg]

I disagree about human civilization destroying itself. .

two words

dee troit

[Wolf_Rider]

yeah, imagine you're in the Batmobile with Wonderwoman.. that's pretty much the same grounds in terms of that theory's validity..

Catwoman would get jealous though...

now to the point... when you can't plausably discredit the fact you resort to ridiculing it. Its an age old human trait, indicating a closed mind.
Ridicule it all you want, but you'll never change the fact that the ball has to travel faster than the carriage in order to travel from the rear to front along the carriage's line of travel.

[retrojet]

lawl :grin:
See what happens when you listen to pop rock groups from Georgia while posting?

PARDON!!! YOU'LL HAVE TO SPEAK UP!!!

:-D well, it reminded me of the film where a nuclear flat-top goes back in time to ww2 ...etc... etc... Can't remember the name, but you know...

[TheDawg]

Catwoman would get jealous though...

now to the point... when you can't plausably discredit the fact you resort to ridiculing it. Its an age old human trait, indicating a closed mind.
Ridicule it all you want, but you'll never change the fact that the ball has to travel faster than the carriage in order to travel from the rear to front along the carriage's line of travel.


Frankly I'm comfortable ridiculing things I dont understand. I'm white, middleclass and under educated... Probably something to do with it right there
Was self defecating humor in the rules section?

[TheDawg]

PARDON!!! YOU'LL HAVE TO SPEAK UP!!!

:-D well, it reminded me of the film where a nuclear flat-top goes back in time to ww2 ...etc... etc... Can't remember the name, but you know...


I can now blame you for not being able to remember.
they just promoted that on the tv channel...dammit...it was..ah..
splash the zeros...pffft.. I got nothing now...
edit: wait...nope..gone.. martin somebody was in it...

[ATAG_Dutch]

erm, we can have forms of basic communication with other animals actually.

'The language of the Universe is mathematics' - can't remember who I'm quoting, but have you ever tried to explain differential equations to a dolphin?

If so, what would you say was the dolphin's overall aptitude for calculus?;-)

But I agree with the pub part.:)

[Rattlehead]

Blimey, I think I just had a bit of a rant. Sorry chaps!:-D

It was a good rant though. :)

To be honest, I've always been a bit of a fence-sitter on this subject, which is why I thought I'd create the topic and see what others think.

Not to sound like a loony, but I saw a UFO (as in, unidentified) once, and it was a pretty amazing experience. Never seen anything like it, nor do I expect to ever again.

[bongodriver]

equal and opposite reaction, the throw of the ball will create just enough opposite force to slow the train enough so the balls travel is never faster than light.

[retrojet]

'The language of the Universe is mathematics' - can't remember who I'm quoting, but have you ever tried to explain differential equations to a dolphin?

If so, what would you say was the dolphin's overall aptitude for calculus?;-)

But I agree with the pub part.:)

My dog knows Sit! Stay! And wait! Especially when we're in the pub!
Now, if only my wife understood me :rolleyes:

[CharveL]

Catwoman would get jealous though...

now to the point... when you can't plausably discredit the fact you resort to ridiculing it. Its an age old human trait, indicating a closed mind.
Ridicule it all you want, but you'll never change the fact that the ball has to travel faster than the carriage in order to travel from the rear to front along the carriage's line of travel.

Respectfully, you speak of facts without actually determining them. It's a difficult concept to wrap your head around, I know it was for me too, but this concept you are using is hardly new, and Einstein himself postulated it in the early part of the century, and subsequently managed to explain it using his theory of special relativity.

At the time it wasn't possible to test this particular aspect (your example, not every aspect of his theories) experimentally but over the years it has.

If I'm going 50mph in a car and turn my headlights on, the beams still go the speed of light to the observer at the side of the road. The 4th dimension of time adjusts.

This will help explain it for you...

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/hillis/hillis_p2.html

[retrojet]

I can now blame you for not being able to remember.
they just promoted that on the tv channel...dammit...it was..ah..
splash the zeros...pffft.. I got nothing now...
edit: wait...nope..gone.. martin somebody was in it...

Final Countdown? No... That sounds lame...

Dang Dawg, does it matter, mate... Have another pint on me!

Happy Friday! :-D

[Sternjaeger II]

Catwoman would get jealous though...

now to the point... when you can't plausably discredit the fact you resort to ridiculing it. Its an age old human trait, indicating a closed mind.
Ridicule it all you want, but you'll never change the fact that the ball has to travel faster than the carriage in order to travel from the rear to front along the carriage's line of travel.

lol easy man, it was just a joke. The point is that your theory is flawed cos you can't recreate those conditions, and even if you did, it wouldn't work ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

'The language of the Universe is mathematics' - can't remember who I'm quoting, but have you ever tried to explain differential equations to a dolphin?

If so, what would you say was the dolphin's overall aptitude for calculus?;-)

But I agree with the pub part.:)

I remember reading that too and thinking "typical human presumption" ;)

mathematics is the language of nerds, it's just a form that we use to interpret what's around us, but it's a key of reading that we invented.

As for communication skills, the day you'll be able to use your sinuses as a sonar I'll agree with you ;)

..can I have a pint of Bombardier now please?!

[ATAG_Dutch]

..can I have a pint of Bombardier now please?!

Most certainly sir. I find it a little strong for my pallette I'm afraid.

It's a nice warm soapy pint of Theakston's Best Bitter for me I should say.

All this 'extra cold' nonsense. It's just not British.;-)

[retrojet]

... So we're out camping (as in tents) in the middle of the Black Rock Desert in Nevada.
It's pitch black for real, and all of a sudden the weirdest, strangest looking light starts soaring up on the horizon...

Missile test? Maybe, as it was unidentifiable, no one got abducted, but everyone in the group thought it was one of the most amazing experiences...

The world is amazing beyond belief when you consider that there's not even a flea living anywhere else outside of our atmosphere ( that we know of )

But, the thought of something being out there is just plain interesting...
It's the wonder of it all!

Anyway, if a civilization was capable of getting here, they would probably take one look at our mess and do a U-turn! Why waste their time! Unless they want to use and abuse us!.... Oh, that's right, they already are!!!
:-D

[Wolf_Rider]

At the time it wasn't possible to test this particular aspect (your example, not every aspect of his theories) experimentally but over the years it has.



It has been shown also, that in some cases, particles can and do TFL
(Quantum Tunnelling)




If I'm going 50mph in a car and turn my headlights on, the beams still go the speed of light to the observer at the side of the road. The 4th dimension of time adjusts.



light travels faster than the headlights producing it do, so it makes it hard to understand yourthing there

[CharveL]

It has been shown also, that in some cases, particles can and do TFL
(Tunnel Diode)




light travels faster than the headlights producing it do, so it makes it hard to understand yourthing there

Link for the Tunnel Diode effect please. If it's what I'm thinking of, there is no actual travelling FTL here but another effect I believe is called quantum tunneling.

The light from the headlights to an observer would not go any faster than the headlights themselves although to you (in the car) it may appear so. Time, in this sense is different for the observer than yourself.

Read the article or do your own googling and you will get a better explanation than from me. :)

[David Hayward]

equal and opposite reaction, the throw of the ball will create just enough opposite force to slow the train enough so the balls travel is never faster than light.

We have a winner!

[TheDawg]

What happens if the light source starts in say, America, then crosses into Canada, would that metric thing make something blow up?

[DayGlow]

What happens if the light source starts in say, America, then crosses into Canada, would that metric thing make something blow up?

Is the light properly regulated and received proper approval from the regulatory body that controls it's function?

[Wolf_Rider]

Apologies Sternjaeger, a bit sharp yes, but not directed totally to you. It was more a statement on the "consensus/ heretic" thing which has plagued the world since Adam was a boy.... the catwoman jealousy was in direct reply though ;)





Link for the Tunnel Diode effect please. If it's what I'm thinking of, there is no actual travelling FTL here but another effect I believe is called quantum tunneling.




yes, you are correct there (post amended and no more Coopers for me tonight :) )




The ight from the headlights to an observer would not go any faster than the headlights themselves although to you (in the car) it may appear so.



(I believe you mean 'L'ight - point taken ;) )

correct in that the headlights aren't travelling as fast as the light they are outputting and we agree (it seems) that the viewport of the observer does have effect on that which is observed



Time, in this sense is different for the observer than yourself.



the thing about time is; a (us) 3 dimensional person cannot understand the 4th dimension, any more than a 2 dimensional critter can understand the 3rd dimension.

I'll explain it this way: all we see/ understand of the 4th dimesnion is as a shadow of what that dimension is. eg draw a cube on a sheet of paper (2 dimensional x / y that paper is for this purpose). Now try to explain what height is (Z) to that which has no concept of "up" to explain what a cube is.




Read the article or do your own googling and you will get a better explanation than from me. :)



In the 5th dimension, gravity isn't valid





equal and opposite reaction, the throw of the ball will create just enough opposite force to slow the train enough so the balls travel is never faster than light.



EOR plays out in the shoulder and hips... even if some made it through, the ball still travels from the rear to the front of the carriage

try again :)

[David Hayward]

EOR plays out in the shoulder and hips...

Which transfer the force to the train... Bongo nailed it.

[flyingblind]

Wouldn't a car travelling at the speed of light and the light from its headlamps simply arrive at their destination at the same time?

[bongodriver]

Yep...just like the ball and train.

[Wolf_Rider]

Wouldn't a car travelling at the speed of light and the light from its headlamps simply arrive at their destination at the same time?



in considering that the car would have to get up to speed, after leaving Point A, and then slow down at the other end, before arriving at Point B... it could be safe to say no.

[DayGlow]

http://www.freewebs.com/calvin-hobbes-org/dadandtime.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/calvin-hobbes-org/dadandcalvinsrecordplayer.jpg

[louisv]

"Do UFO's exist? - Yes but they aren't alien
Did something alien really crash at Roswell? - No
Did something strange really land at Rendelsham Forest? - Maybe but not alien.
Have aliens colonized this planet before? - No
Have they visited? - No
Are abductions real? - No
Did the US government reverse-engineer alien technology and incorporate it into experimental aircraft? - No

Or are aliens and extra-terrestrial life forms nothing more than our modern-day fairies and goblins? - No
Figments of wild imaginations and paranoia? - No"

No, just plain Americans pilots sworn to secrecy about even the fact that they are pilots, living in Nevada an otherwise normal life, flying what they probably call an ASC (for Alternative Space Craft).

So what is the U.S. Air Force Space Command for...special shuttle payloads...and a few rockets...come on. The Pentagon shelved the SR-71, and never officially replaced it and the shuttle program is over. So what do they care, they have ASC's.

I had two honest to God UFO sightings (well 3 actually, but I id'ed one, so now its a IFO..., but interesting too), two different types:

1- April '98, just looking at the sky at sunrise, one, then two ruddy colored (but not shining, apparently just reflecting sunrise colors), just literally materialized in the area of Cassiopea (from my vantage point of course, the most brilliant stars were still visible), imagine an American penny seen at 3 or 4 meters and about the same color. The objects starting moving together towards the east, the first object was moving smoothly and accelerating, the second was madly bobbing all around the first, and the bobbiness augmented as the smooth moving object was accelerating...then they just faded out like they had faded in, moving quite fast at the end. That lasted for about 15 seconds

2- The night the Canadien hockey team won against Pittsburg, at the 2010 Stanley Cup quarter finals, I was at a local café with a friend and everybody walked outside to celebrate...I mean a substantial fraction of the population of Montreal. Just as I walk outside I notice a strange orange flickering light in the sky, immobile...just like a little campfire in the sky. So I asked my friend what he thought it was and of course he answered "a helicopter...duh". Well this was no chopper, not a sound, no navigation light to speak of, and this strange flickering as if it was a giant orange star low on the horizon, but it was high is the sky. Suddenly two more campfires joined in - in a nice smooth two-ship formation - and I ask my friend again, and its so funny, he said there was probably a helicopter school having a party because of the Canadien's win...:grin: And all that time, not a sound...Then two more joined in!!! In a nice two-ship formation like the other pair. So now we had 5 little campfires in the sky silently flickering in a slight circle formation. They stayed there a good while, maybe 15 minute IIRC. I found 3 YouTube videos about it the next day, but of course all you saw was a few dots of light...not convincing at all, you would have needed a very good telephoto lens to get a convincing image, which of course I did'nt have.:(.

But those guys thought they saw something weird too.

I reported both sightings to Mufon, they rejected the first one, because I reported it too long after the fact IIRC.

The third sighting is certainly military: at night, a low flying totally silent all black aircraft passed me at about 1500 feet. It was flying between two decks of low clouds, lit by the sodium glow of Montreal street lights, and there was a clearing on top of my house...I saw it almost from the side and below...No navigation lights (or cockpit lights for that matter), I didn't see any tail. Imagine an F117 but rounded like the B2. Pretty slick if you think about it, it would be stealthier than an F117 (newer B2 stealth technology) and you could use the F117 as decoys !!!

Now...it was totally silent. So that is a three tier stealth technology: Black so difficult to see for ground observers , Radar stealth of course and absolutely silent.

I may have revealed a few American state secrets here, but what the hell, the Chinese have everything already...

Louis

[Wolf_Rider]

"The geocentric model held sway into the early modern age, but was gradually replaced from the late 16th century onward by the heliocentric model of Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler. However, the transition between these two theories met much resistance, not only from the Catholic Church and its reluctance to accept a theory not placing God's creation at the center of the universe, but also from those who saw geocentrism as a fact that could not be subverted by a new, weakly justified theory."

- wiki

consensus/ heretic

[Robotic Pope]

in considering that the car would have to get up to speed, after leaving Point A, and then slow down at the other end, before arriving at Point B... it could be safe to say no.

That's beside the point. The fact is that the light from the car and the light from the car's headlights would reach the destination at the same time. But to the driver the light from the cars headlights would also be traveling away from the car at the speed of light, for the same reason that the person throwing the ball in the carrige can see the person they are throwing the ball to. So the time of the people traveling is slowed down to make this posible. The ball doesn't travel faster than light. It travels at the same speed as it does when thrown when the carrige is stationary.

[Wolf_Rider]

lol... its not beside the point and something which had to be taken into account. If there wasn't any slowing down, things could get ugly trying to disembark, eh?

If you really meant, 'whilst travelling at", you could be quite right about the headlights, but the ball travelling "It travels at the same speed as it does when thrown when the carrige is stationary." still applies in motion at any speed, depending on the observer's viewport :) Observed on the carriage, the ball would possibly be as you suggest, but, observed from outside (as a passerby) you get something different.

Dayglow's cartoon (frames 5, 6 and 7) explains "observer" and "viewport" rather well

[Robotic Pope]

lol... its not beside the point and something which had to be taken into account. If there wasn't any slowing down, things could get ugly trying to disembark, eh?

If you really meant, 'whilst travelling at", you could be quite right about the headlights, but the ball travelling "It travels at the same speed as it does when thrown when the carrige is stationary." still applies in motion at any speed, depending on the observer's viewport :) Observed on the carriage, the ball would possibly be as you suggest, but, observed from outside (as a passerby) you get something different.

haha yes ok, very messy..

About the thrown ball, I didn't explain it well. Of course if a stationary observer could see inside a carridge going past at light speed. He would see everthing almost completely frozen in time with the ball hovering in mid air between the two peaple. So at no point would the actual ball be going FTL.

[Wolf_Rider]

That would depend on if "time" played into it as claimed, bearing in mind that time is another dimension and can't be fully grasped by a 3rd dimension entity. Does it necessarily mean that if "time" stops or slows that motion must slow or stop as well?
Like this... you're at your favourite pastime and "wow, didn't time fly, I never realised it was so late" and another occasion such as a yukky job, "where time just seemed to drag".

Some witnesses have noted that they have seen UFO's make sharp 90degree turns at seemingly high speed - how would this be possible?

[David Hayward]

Some witnesses have noted that they have seen UFO's make sharp 90degree turns at seemingly high speed - how would this be possible?

Because the witness was stoned out of his/her mind?

[Robotic Pope]

Because the witness was stoned out of his/her mind?

lol maybe some. But I doubt that is the case for the many aircraft pilots that have witnessed the foo fighters.

[David Hayward]

lol maybe some. But I doubt that is the case for the many aircraft pilots that have witnessed the foo fighters.

Tired, sleeping or poor visibility.

[bongodriver]

or just wanted the attention.

[Rattlehead]

"

Now...it was totally silent. So that is a three tier stealth technology: Black so difficult to see for ground observers , Radar stealth of course and absolutely silent.

I may have revealed a few American state secrets here, but what the hell, the Chinese have everything already...

Louis

Hey Louis, thanks for sharing.

My experience (at night at 21:30, 11th April 2007*) was of a completely silent, boomerang type shape in the sky clearly visible flying between low-lying clouds. One key difference between my experience and yours was that the craft I saw was an off-white colour, about the same colour as clouds at night.
I only noticed it only by pure blind luck...had I not looked up at the sky at that specific moment and exact spot I would have missed it, but once I saw it, it was impossible to mistake the clearly boomerang shape. The shape was so clearly outlined against the night sky, and it was also easier to discern the shape as it basically flew right overhead.
The shape, combined with the complete lack of any sound of any sort, strongly reminded me of a manta ray gliding through the water, and I have to tell you it was a surreal experience for sure.
I watched it for about 20-30 seconds before it disappeared over the horizon.
It goes without saying that I have wondered many times what exactly it was I saw, and whatever it was, it certainly is nothing that exists officially.

*I remember the date and time so well because it was the day before my brother's birthday, and I had taken a stroll in the garden to get some fresh air just before the TV program Fight Quest was about to start.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Or the money for selling the story.

Patrick Moore and his ilk have watched the skies continually in visible light, radio, infra-red, gamma, microwaves etc for a career and have never reported an alien spacecraft.

The people who see them the most appear to be impoverished South American farmers, who in fact had simply fallen asleep in the sun and got sunburned on one side of their head.

And all of the tripe spinners since Erich Von Daniken and his kind are simply waxing fat on the gullibility of the poor sods who go in for all this 'backward engineered, Roswell, Aliens stole my baby' etc rubbish and they're rubbing their hands with glee all the way to the bank.

Ooh, it makes my blood boil.

Now I'm ranting again.

[Skoshi Tiger]

The universe is demonstrably finite and expanding, for about 13 - 14 billion years.

Although we are finding an abundance of extra-solar planets, many of which reside in the potentially "habitable" zone, we are also learning that there is an increasingly daunting number of factors that must coincide to form life as we have defined it, and exponentially more still for it to evolve even to our point. Even then, with intelligence and technology do they even want to reach out to anyone else?

Black holes don't do anything that breaks the speed of light.

Our universe may be an expanding bubble amongst other bubble universes but even if we could travel to them we'd likely die instantly if physics principles vary even slightly to those defined in the birth of our own.

Perhaps in lieu of traveling faster than the speed of light (even approaching it slows time and increases mass) these "aliens" could bend space-time to get around but good luck with that. Possible, perhaps. Likely, not a chance.

Now, consider the past say, 10 years pretty much everyone and their grandmother has a cellphone with a camera in it. Consider the past 40-50 years since the UFO first became popularized and made us want to be believers. No definitive photos or video. I can understand it being rare but not one video of a craft landing in a field with a big-eyed lanky grey alien stepping out to take a two-stream piss on their way to some Tatooine canteen.

Conclusion: unless you are religiously attracted to the alien phenomenon by faith and ignore logic and statistical data, one has to conclude that alien visitation to this planet is very unlikely.

To each their own but some people with little money and sense, and a faith in things like destiny and fate, love to spend money on lottery tickets as well.

Do you realise that in an infinite universe there is another CharveL identical to you in every resepect down to the spin of the atoms that just posted the complete opposite? ;)


Cheers!

[ATAG_Dutch]

Do you realise that in an infinite universe there is another CharveL identical to you in every resepect down to the spin of the atoms that just posted the complete opposite? ;)

Sorry mate, but it's quarks that have spin.;-)

[CharveL]

Do you realise that in an infinite universe there is another CharveL identical to you in every resepect down to the spin of the atoms that just posted the complete opposite? ;)


Cheers!

Luckily we do not live in an infinite universe then.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Sorry mate, but it's quarks that have spin.;-)

I was obviously refering to the internal constiuant parts not the atom as a whole. Just as you would refer to an engine spinning clockwise or anti clockwise.

Luckily we do not live in an infinite universe then.

Your copy didn't say that either!

Oh! And an exact copy of tree just posted that he loved COD and won a 100 page debate by posting a page long essay that finally proved beyong a measure of a doubt that Cliffs of Dover is the BEST WWII Combat Flight sim ever produced in the Multiverse.

Peace and happyness infused all the members of the community and an infinately long period of bliss enveloped the forum!

Cheers! :)

[unreasonable]

Do you realise that in an infinite universe there is another CharveL identical to you in every resepect down to the spin of the atoms that just posted the complete opposite? ;)


Cheers!

This is a fallacy, albeit an easy one to commit, especially when combined with a flawed understanding of probabilities as objective as opposed to subjective qualities.

Even if the universe were infinite it does not follow logically that every possible combination of events must exist. There are many examples of infinities where every term in them is identical or a repeating sequence - eg the fraction one third expressed in decimals = 0.333333333..., the coupon on a perpetual FRN.

[louisv]

Or the money for selling the story.

Patrick Moore and his ilk have watched the skies continually in visible light, radio, infra-red, gamma, microwaves etc for a career and have never reported an alien spacecraft.

The people who see them the most appear to be impoverished South American farmers, who in fact had simply fallen asleep in the sun and got sunburned on one side of their head.

And all of the tripe spinners since Erich Von Daniken and his kind are simply waxing fat on the gullibility of the poor sods who go in for all this 'backward engineered, Roswell, Aliens stole my baby' etc rubbish and they're rubbing their hands with glee all the way to the bank.

Ooh, it makes my blood boil.

Now I'm ranting again.

I'm with you with Erich Von Daniken, but I'm affraid you are throwing the baby with the bathwater. Its not because there are ***holes like Von Daniken, that nothing will ever happen.

Also nobody here is saying the pilots are ETs. Not every word on UFOs comes from ***holes or cretins. A lot comes from retired airline pilots, who can now speak as their job is not at stake.

As a former physics student, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of physicists and astronomers are convinced that in this universe, we are not alone.

But none of them believe that ETs ever came here. And I am one of them. The distances and the time scale are just too great. See the Fermi paradox. And to think ETs are from another dimension is even worse, "Where are the tourists":)

But technology marches on. And never revising you opinion is both dangerous and a sign of old age.

Sincerely,

Louis.

PS: The universe is made of two types of particles, bosons and fermions, what distinguishes one from the other is that bosons have integral spin (1 or -1) and fermions have fractionnal spin (-1/2 and 1/2). An example of boson is a photon, and an example of fermion is an electron. But ALL particles, and even groups of particles, like a nucleus made of many protons and neutrons, are one or the other. To find if a group of particles is a fermion or a boson, you add all the spins, if it ends up integral (whole number), congratulation, its a boson. As for quarks, which are sub-particles, they have lot more than spin, they also have "charm", "color", etc...It is very important to know if a particle is one or the other as these particles don't follow quite the same rules, for instance fermions (ex an electron) cannot be more than one of same spin in a single orbital, its called the Fermi exclusion rule. But bosons can congragate without problems. This allows for very sophisticated materials research.

Oh and you will never see a UFO in a telescope anymore than you will see a beautiful girl in a microscope, it doesn't cover a lot of angle...also many astronomers don't know the constellations, unless they were amateurs. I was surprised by that at first but they really don't need to. My point here is that most of them don't watch the sky much. They ask the tech to slew the scope and study the pictures ans spectra and what have you but rarelly watch the sky in its entirety. Mr Moore is a great guy, but if he spoke of UFOs positively, he would be discredited.

[Skoshi Tiger]

This is a fallacy, albeit an easy one to commit, especially when combined with a flawed understanding of probabilities as objective as opposed to subjective qualities.

Even if the universe were infinite it does not follow logically that every possible combination of events must exist. There are many examples of infinities where every term in them is identical or a repeating sequence - eg the fraction one third expressed in decimals = 0.333333333..., the coupon on a perpetual FRN.

No, your statement is an argument that the universe is finite. If the universe is truely infinte then every possiblity no matter how small must be otherwise it would be impossible and not part of the equation.

In an infinte universe an exact copy of you is (or will or has been) trying to convince a copy of me that the universe is infinite and I've just told you that your logic is flawed. Even if there is a 1 in infinity chance of it happening then it will.

Of course some people say that inifinity is just an idea that mathematicians made up just because they needed a very large number that was bigger than anything else to make maths easy for them to understand, in which case I could keep on telling you that in infinite universe an infinite number of identical copies of myself were putting their fingers in their ears and shouting 'I can't hear you!' from now until the universe ends and it wouldn't really matter to anyone in the long run.

Entropy will get us all in the end! Most likely I get bored before then!

Cheers!

[unreasonable]

No, your statement is an argument that the universe is finite. If the universe is truely infinte then every possiblity no matter how small must be otherwise it would be impossible and not part of the equation.

In an infinte universe an exact copy of you is (or will or has been) trying to convince a copy of me that the universe is infinite and I've just told you that your logic is flawed. Even if there is a 1 in infinity chance of it happening then it will.


Put it another way, your argument is the same as saying that if A is possible, then A must be true. But this is obviously nonsense - possible existence does not mean the same as necessary existence. Possible existence implies the possibility of non-existence. So given that you have derived a contradiction, you either have a false premise or have made a false step of logic (or both!)

We find the mistake easily: if you take some estimated finite probability of, say, life on another planet, or clones of us having this argument on another planet, and multiply by infinity, the answer is not one, but infinity. And an infinite probability has no meaning - a probability cannot exceed 1.

You can only get 1 in your argument by assuming that the probability is 1/infinity to get the equation 1/infinity X infinity/1 = 1 which is trivial.

If you want to have a universe where all sorts of bizarre things are happening you would be better of believing that the universe is not infinite, but very very large, since you can then multiply your prior probability by a large number and then at least get a meaninful answer.

If you like thinking about these sorts of things you might consider reading up about the Bayesian concept of probability, which focuses on probability as the subjective assessment of available evidence, rather than the objectivist concept you appear to use.

[Wolf_Rider]

If the universe is truely infinte then every possiblity no matter how small must be otherwise it would be impossible and not part of the equation.


Cheers!

That's true... and the basis of parallel universes, with the switch (creator) being "choice".

Arrive at a 4way intersection, with which there are three (baisc) directions to move forward in... straight/ left or right, at this point there is a choice as to which direction to take and at that instant the outcome of the three possiblities exist equally (there are a few more options but we'll use the three basic ones for simplcity). The choice is made to turn right, which means the left possibility and the straight ahead possibilty fade off and the turn right option takes the focus (there's no pause while the tape loads for the turn right choice) but at the same time, the other two possiblities still continue.

There is a you which has turned right which is the focus, as well there is also a you which turned left - focus diminished, faded... and there is also a you which has continued on the straight ahead, albeit with the focus diminished, faded but with that all three exist.

[ATAG_Dutch]

And never revising your opinion is both dangerous and a sign of old age.

I completely agree, which is why I went from being one of the people who affirm that probability points to the existence of life elsewhere, to one of the people who affirm that the conditions and components necessary to accidentally lead to DNA or a similar complex chain are as unlikely as the universe is vast. ;-)

[Skoshi Tiger]

Put it another way, your argument is the same as saying that if A is possible, then A must be true.



If it doesn't then we are in a finite universe as Charvel has stated, not an infinite one.

What I would like to know is if infinity doesn't exist why would you as a mathematician multiply something by it?


If you want ....If you like
You are funny! Where in any of my posts have I stated that I want or I would like or I believe I live in an infinite universe? (I'll leave that up to one of my or your selves! ;) )

We can only know what we can observe; I doubt that neither you nor I will live long enough to find out the answer.

There are men called scientist that are much more intelligent than either me or yourselves that think about how the universe is made. Some of these BIG thinkers are as we type having the same debate, neither group will determine the answer, neither will we with any certainty!

Cheers!

[ATAG_Dutch]

Not every word on UFOs comes from ***holes or cretins. A lot comes from retired airline pilots, who can now speak as their job is not at stake.

They can also speak due to the lure of the mighty dollar. Retired airline pilots also have debts and bills to pay. If any of them really are retired airline pilots that is.

Using retired airline pilots is simply trying to lend an air of professional credibility to the arguments and is swallowed wholesale by the same gullible people I was referring to.

[raaaid]

the world was created last thursday by the alien :)

[von Pilsner]

I completely agree, which is why I went from being one of the people who affirm that probability points to the existence of life elsewhere, to one of the people who affirm that the conditions and components necessary to accidentally lead to DNA or a similar complex chain are as unlikely as the universe is vast. ;-)

And yet here we are living in a vast universe, It seems earth-centrist (had to make up a word) to believe we are the only planet with life in the whole of the universe. (Not taking a shot at you, but saying that it's so terribly unlikely that it can not happen when we only have 1 reliable data point [it happened at least once] it's difficult to follow the reasoning).

[raaaid]

earth is the only inhabitable planet of the universe

but by different species in different time lines

that methorite was a genocide of the hot green women(yes martians are green)

then theres the machines, pure love

the discusting cyborgs, the borg from fiction

the homo sapiens ruling this time line

the neanderthal

and finally in sometimlines the homo angelis whom is binaural contrary to us simple mononeurals :), a globally enlightened humanity

so guess what a war is going on and tghe truth kepts secret

the cyborgs can live million years as the machines, the rest of us dont fear death nad just live 100 years, unless you trun a borg yourself

you just have to insert a chip in your brain, theyre around hollywood knows:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WRfzPDOFQsI/S0cqnUfsSoI/AAAAAAAAAkI/IFwjec-TcAg/s320/total_recall_12.jpg

[CharveL]

When one takes into account the number of stars in a galaxy, the number of galaxies in a local group, the number of local groups in a larger group, and then realize that this is a pinprick in the scale of the the universe then it becomes very difficult to believe it is unlikely for life to exist elsewhere.

Given these scales it seems likely there is even intelligent, social, communicative civilizations out there.

Unfortunately, for all intents and purposes anything out beyond a few hundred light years is irrelevant (mostly) because there is no way to interact in a practical way given the laws of physics, so that doesn't leave much to focus on.

Being the greatest question for humanity it's worthwhile looking for extra terrestrial life in whatever form it may take though.

There is always the possibility that there is some way to...circumvent...the currently understood laws of physics that some tourist alien race has discovered but that's too much of a long shot by logical reasoning, although it can't be completely discounted. Instead I think the "UFO" phenomenon is fascinating insofar as it shows a larger social dynamic (even if there really are a few "real" sightings, whatever that entails, amongst them).

The thing is to not only keep an open mind to the chance that a low probability option may turn out to be reality, but more so to keep an open mind that just because you can't explain an experience, despite what you know, does not mean that you are interpreting it right.

[Wolf_Rider]

the theories involving " the law of physics" are subject to questioning though


asked earlier: some witnesses have stated they've seen UFO's perform sharp 90 degrees turns at high speed, or zip off at extremely high speed... how would this be possible?

[bongodriver]

the theories involving " the law of physics" are subject to questioning though


asked earlier: some witnesses have stated they've seen UFO's perform sharp 90 degrees turns at high speed, or zip off at extremely high speed... how would this be possible?

they said it because it is a more unexplainable description of the behaviour of the 'alleged' sightings, it's hardly going to sound as interesting if they described them as moving just like aircraft, like saying you saw a ghost and describing it as just like some guy wearing an old bedsheet with eye holes.....

[raaaid]

once i saw a light aproacching from the sea while at the beach at night at low height coming towards me , it disappeared right above me during half second i lokk down

next day i peed 40 times and was all heat up in an supreme mood

the previous day to this i had managed to see withthe peripheral view as well as with central, after the event it stopped

did they give me antipromicine?

edit:

the aliens are doing something funny:

1st we are mononeural we just have psudosteroscopy

if tv showed perfect 3d you would think it flat

i know tv is really 3d, the famous crystal ball

ive manages to see tv in 3d and i can tell the paralax of my eyes change when objects change distance

and ive managed to see normal tv in 3d

the aliens have some sick sense of humour and have a blast laughing at us

in fact id say im the blind in the land of oneyeds

[CharveL]

the aliens have some sick sense of humour and have a blast laughing at us


After attempting to discern logic from this post I'm sure they're not the only ones.

[raaaid]

oh im not telling lies nor trying to laugh other if you laugh

i cant tell these in rl its nice i can her with no trouble

[SlipBall]

Seeing how every life form we know of EATS something else, do we really want to ever meet aliens...just a thought:grin:

[ACE-OF-ACES]

what is so extra about extra terrestrial?

[raaaid]

wow thats a very good one

[patrat1]

[QUOTE=Wolf_Rider;320337]the theories involving " the law of physics" are subject to questioning though


QUOTE]



this is true. but even if faster than light travel is possible, civilizations could still be effectively isolated by the shear number of planetary systems out there.

in other words even if an advanced civilization has faster than light travel, the odds would still be extremely long against them stumbling upon our little blue world.

[NedLynch]

Other dimensions are certainly a critical part in traveling to further reaches of the universe.
The thing is we are 3-dimensional beings with time as the 4th dimension sort of tacked on and taken for an unchangeable constant. Introducing other dimensions is something that we will probably not be able to comprehend.

For example, take a 2-dimensional critter, maybe and ant, and put it on a ball.
It will run and run and never ever be able to understand that it is running on a ball, a 3-dimensional object.

Something that puzzles me is also, if the universe is finite one should be able theoretically to reach it's end and to look at it from the outside. But what is on the outside, another finite universe, infinite space, nothing? How, as a 3-dimensional, spacewise, being can you wrap your head around the concept of a finite or infinite universe?

[SlipBall]

I think that the ant would run down to the base of the ball, once on the table he would make a bee line for your sandwich. :grin:

[adonys]

You guys should read Zacharia Sitchin's theory (there's a series of books about it) and read about the Phobos incident..

Then we can talk about UFO's :)

[Skoshi Tiger]

Seeing how every life form we know of EATS something else, do we really want to ever meet aliens...just a thought:grin:

That really depends upon

A) do they have big teeth?
and
B) What do they taste like?

Cheers

[NedLynch]

I think that the ant would run down to the base of the ball, once on the table he would make a bee line for your sandwich. :grin:

However it cannot comprehend the dimensions of the sandwich since it's a 3-dimensional sandwich and upon approaching the sandwich anyway my 3-dimensional hand would turn the 2-dimensional ant into a 1-dimensional ant......uhhh yeah, stone cold killer here :rolleyes:

[unreasonable]

If it doesn't then we are in a finite universe as Charvel has stated, not an infinite one.

What I would like to know is if infinity doesn't exist why would you as a mathematician multiply something by it?


You are funny! Where in any of my posts have I stated that I want or I would like or I believe I live in an infinite universe? (I'll leave that up to one of my or your selves! ;) )

We can only know what we can observe; I doubt that neither you nor I will live long enough to find out the answer.

There are men called scientist that are much more intelligent than either me or yourselves that think about how the universe is made. Some of these BIG thinkers are as we type having the same debate, neither group will determine the answer, neither will we with any certainty!

Cheers!

Actually I agree with what you say about observation - I am simply pointing out that an infinite universe does NOT imply that every possibility is actualised. This just incorrect logic and mathematics.

(Which I think I might be able to demonstrate in another way which avoids having to multiply be infinity....

Suppose that we agree that, if we go to any other single solar system, the probability of finding "unreasonable" and "Skoshi Toger" debating the universe is less than 1.00 - lets say it is 0.10 ;-)

Then we go to the first solar system we come to and look. The probability of NOT finding the debaters is 0.90 so let us assume we do not find them.

We go to the next planet - the probability is again 0.90

So from the beginning the probability of NOT finding the debaters on any planet of the first two is 0.90 x 0.90 = 0.81

We can continue this process infinitely - 0.90x0.90x0.90 etc

The point is that while the product approaches zero, it never actually reaches zero. So we can never be 100% certain that we will find the debaters. So the argument that an infinite universe must necessarily contain every possibility fails.)

As for the BIG THINKERS - I went to university with many of these scientists (in fact I started out as one myself) and I can assure you that hardly any of them are much more intelligent than you or I, and even the best of them are just as prone to poor reasoning and category mistakes as anyone else when they step away from their narrow fields of enquiry. Stephen Hawking for instance is a famously lousy philospher despite having a brain the size of a planet. He is wasted on physics - we should kidnap him and put him to work on CloD's AI!

[Wolf_Rider]

All you've done there is explain logic as...

At this moment:
Are you at the front door? - no
Are you in the kitchen? - no
If you aren't in the kitchen or at the front door, you must be somewhere else(?) - yes
If you are somewhere else, you cannot be at your computer reading this.


there is, as you offer, a 0.1 chance of finding and an equal 0.9 chance of not finding... in that moment, you have two posbilities... there in, there is a universe in which you do find and equally existant is a universe in which you do not find, and that is just for the planet you chose to look on first, in the solar system you chose to look in first = a multitude of parallel universes just involvolving; will I find?

[SlipBall]

That really depends upon

A) do they have big teeth?
and
B) What do they taste like?

Cheers


That is just so true!...even Stephen Hawking agrees to stay hidden because humans can be great on the plasma grill:grin:

[unreasonable]

All you've done there is explain logic as...

At this moment:
Are you at the front door? - no
Are you in the kitchen? - no
If you aren't in the kitchen or at the front door, you must be somewhere else(?) - yes
If you are somewhere else, you cannot be at your computer reading this.


there is, as you offer, a 0.1 chance of finding and an equal 0.9 chance of not finding... in that moment, you have two posbilities... there in, there is a universe in which you do find and equally existant is a universe in which you do not find, and that is just for the planet you chose to look on first, in the solar system you chose to look in first = a multitude of parallel universes just involvolving; will I find?

Now this is mixing up multiple possible observations of a single actual universe (finite or not) with the actual possibility of observing multiple universes :confused:

The mistake here is your phrase "equally existent". The possibilities only exist as logical objects, they are not actual. The actual outcome is there whether or not we look, the looking just finds out what is already there. It is just a fluke of language that we can use the word "exists" about logical objects and physical objects, it really does not mean the same thing in the two cases.

This is for classical objects like flight simmers, BTW

[Wolf_Rider]

no... all possiblities from a choice exist equally at the same moment up until the choice is made to proceed along one branch... at which point that branch taken becomes the focus and the other possibilites fall into disfocus - yet they still exist. (the same as the other 2 forward paths extending from a 4 way intersection still exist, with only one forward, the third, path being travelled on)
Its not mixing up the possibilites of a single univers... the "single universe", is the one which is in "focus" - "logic" has nothing to do with it, as there is nothing logical about choice. At the moment of a choice, all possibilities extending from that choice exist equally.

[unreasonable]

No, no, no no...;) I am sounding like "David Hayward"!

What you are saying implies that you think you exist in some solopsistic world in which your choices define not only your own universe but that of everyone else.

I know some people do actually believe this sort of stuff, even after medication, but it does make discussing reality with other sentient beings a little difficult.

[Wolf_Rider]

now there's no need to be like that.....
you might like to revisit your use of solipsism as well ;)



don't confuse the probability of a spinning coin coming up heads or tails, with the possibility of winning or losing at the landing of it, but while the coin is spinning - both winning or losing exist equally

[bongodriver]

Exactly....nothing exists until the timeline reaches it......once a choice is made or an action taken or an event happens all other possibilities also cease to exist, I do not exist in an alternate universe taking a dump right now just because I decided to go to the bathroom instead of returning to the computer.

[Wolf_Rider]

basically, except one choice leads to another choice and so on (lust like one traffic intersection leads to another one, etc)... but the other possibilities do still exist (in parallel) to the possibility you elected to go with... so while you chose to go take a dump on the way back, in parallel, you also returned to your computer.

[bongodriver]

Only theoretically I would argue, but I don't buy the paralell theory.....too much infinity for my liking, it would mean every particle that has ever existed since the creation event has created an infinite number of existences which in turn create more of the same in each new event.....seems somehow ineficcient and uncharacteristic of a finely ballanced set of rules that I believe the universe runs on.

[unreasonable]

basically, except one choice leads to another choice and so on (lust like one traffic intersection leads to another one, etc)... but the other possibilities do still exist (in parallel) to the possibility you elected to go with... so while you chose to go take a dump on the way back, in parallel, you also returned to your computer.

Yes, right about the spelling, if nothing else. I blame a late night and too much booze and rugby, although it could not just be that I am an ignorant slob. The Wallabies were disappointing, though I am amazed that the All Blacks managed to win twice in one day.

" but the other possibilities do still exist (in parallel)" Well they exist as logical (or mathematical) objects (in our universe) indeed, but where is the evidence that they "exist" anywhere else? There is'nt any. This illustrates the danger of taking mathematical models and trying to create normal language versions - the words have so much baggage that it is easy to make inferences that mislead even the scientists who are supposed to know better - often especially the scientists, most of whom seem not to understand the difference between a logical object and a physical object.

[Wolf_Rider]

parallel universes exist in parallel to this universe, not as mathematical objects in this universe though

[bongodriver]

parallel universes exist in parallel to this universe, not as mathematical objects in this universe though

there would have to be an infinite number of universes for every particle that ever existed.......makes no sense.

[ZaltysZ]

Faster than light not possible?

Try this... imagine a train carriage hurtling along at the speed of light and you are just a passerby watching this.
At the rear of the carriage is a chap who throws a ball to another chap at the front of the carriage; that ball is travelling faster than the speed of light.
As an observer, within the carriage, it would appear that there is just one chap throwing a ball to another chap.


According to classical physics, velocities will sum up and you will get more than speed of light. However, according to theory of special relativity, only small velocities can be summed in simply way. Higher velocities must be summed using special formula: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/0/3/2035aab1ba5af2e1ff296512b6a57779.png. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity-addition_formula

[Wolf_Rider]

not even Einstein could conceive an effective method of defining a single object's position and velocity at the same moment... even with his theory of relativity

the object's course and velocity could be defined over a range of moments or it's position for any given moment, but not velocity and position at the same moment. ("moment", of course being a snapshot)

[unreasonable]

parallel universes exist in parallel to this universe, not as mathematical objects in this universe though

Untestable empirically.
Not provable mathematically or logically.
Might be a useful philosophical or mathematical tool in some respects, but then so are counterfactuals, which are also untrue.
Confuses the civilians.

All in all it would be better if you left the word "exists" to its normal use (you know, for things that actually do exist like flight-simmers, kittens and the idea of possible parallel universes) and instead used the world "grolphs".

Then you could say "parallel universes grolph in parallel to this universe, not as mathematical objects in this universe though" ;)

[Hatch]

not even Einstein could conceive an effective method of defining a single object's position and velocity at the same moment... even with his theory of relativity

the object's course and velocity could be defined over a range of moments or it's position for any given moment, but not velocity and position at the same moment. ("moment", of course being a snapshot)

Love these discussions.

So is Heisenberg next?

[Wolf_Rider]

perhaps ;)

err, when all these theories were thought up and calculations made(bearing in mind that earlier rock solid calculations and theories have been modified according to new facts), did any of them take eveything into account?

something asked before: some witnesses have stated that the UFO/s they saw took off at immense (seemingly impossible) speed and other made sharp 90 degree turns at high speed. how could this be?

[patrat1]

[QUOTE=NedLynch;320593] Something that puzzles me is also, if the universe is finite one should be able theoretically to reach it's end and to look at it from the outside. But what is on the outside, another finite universe, infinite space, nothing? QUOTE]

if the universe is finite then there is no outside.

in other words, there is no exsistance outside of the universe, because there is no outside.

[bongodriver]

[QUOTE=NedLynch;320593] Something that puzzles me is also, if the universe is finite one should be able theoretically to reach it's end and to look at it from the outside. But what is on the outside, another finite universe, infinite space, nothing? QUOTE]

if the universe is finite then there is no outside.

in other words, there is no exsistance outside of the universe, because there is no outside.

in theory evrything that exists is filled with the 'void' beyond the universe....all the space between atoms is just empty nothing.

[Hatch]

Well nothing in theory land is ever rock solid as far as i'm concerned.
It's just the way we try to discribe reality

As in maths the problems begin when we try to interpret things.
Or should I say "fun".

[raaaid]

the old way to negate free will was determinism

but then they realized it didnt impli no free will but that even things ahve free will

failing they invented the many world theories

if you take all choices you take none you have no free will

the true is the universe is deterministic as matrix explains you take choices outised time and then live it to know why you took that choice :)

[CharveL]

[QUOTE=patrat1;320872]

in theory evrything that exists is filled with the 'void' beyond the universe....all the space between atoms is just empty nothing.

Actually there is no "empty" space, anywhere. Even the darkest intergalactic voids are filled with passing neutrinos and momentary particle/anti-particle pairs that appear briefly to cancel each other out.

The only thing that "travels" faster than the speed of light is the expansion of the universe itself witch is causing the space & time between everything and everything else to expand like raisins on a rising loaf of bread.

Ironically, recent calculations from WMAP observations show the universe to be flat within about 15% accuracy.

Chew on some of that. :-P

[Wolf_Rider]

Yes, the Earth was flat at one stage too, as well it was "provable" that the sun (geo-centrics) revolved around the Earth... It is only logical that if the sun, moon, planets and stars are seen to be moving and we are not, it must be because they are moving... here! I ask you (they said at the time) is the Earth moving? no (they replied) we cannot see that the Earth is moving... good, it was offered, it proves without a doubt that the Earth is the centre of all the heavens.


yeah right :rolleyes:


Which brings me back to my question of; some witnesses saw UFo's zip off at high speed and others said they performed sharp 90 degree turns at high speed.

Why is it that we on Earth move with the Earth, and aren't flung off or find moving against her rotation difficult, with gyroscopic events such as the corioli effect being apparent?

Could it be, that gravity and magnetic field act as a kind of integrity field, making all behave as one?
The corioli effect of throwing a ball between two people on opposites of a playground carousel apply whichever way the carousel is spinning.
Do UFO's run a something similar field, thus enabling them to operate as a contained unit in which ship and occupants move as one??

[David Hayward]

Do UFO's run a something similar field, thus enabling them to operate as a contained unit in which ship and occupants move as one??

It's probably the same field which allowed the Starship Enterprise to accelerate to the speed of light without any apparent affect on the occupants.

[SlipBall]

It's probably the same field which allowed the Starship Enterprise to accelerate to the speed of light without any apparent affect on the occupants.



That's not actually true, there was a profound increase in "make up" calls:grin:

[Oldschool61]

Witness testimoney as well as photographic evidence indicates that in all likelyhood ET's are here. There is more proof of ET than OF Jesus and people actually think he was real and we have ZERO proof ofhis exsistance.
Check out these videos with credible military personnel from private to General talking about there UFO/ET experiances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmw_oNIXsGs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMSHYqUuYKI&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UJ2Z3XvEdI&feature=related

[SlipBall]

Witness testimoney as well as photographic evidence indicates that in all likelyhood ET's are here. There is more proof of ET than OF Jesus and people actually think he was real and we have ZERO proof ofhis exsistance.
Check out these videos with credible military personnel from private to General talking about there UFO/ET experiances.



Cow mutilations and crop circles is proof enough!:grin:

[Sternjaeger II]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1MuT_KSOo4

[JimmyBlonde]

UFOs',

Yes, I think that they are at least possible. I've seen one or two things in the sky that defied explanation. We live in a big universe filled lots of stuff about which we have very little knowledge.

Roswell,

No, I'm certain it is a myth but equally certain that the official explanation is a lie.

It was a balloon being tested for high altitude electronic snooping which contained chimps. The balloon capsule failed (or was deliberately compromised) at high altitude and depressurized. The 'alien' misconception comes from the reflective, foil-like material used in it's construction and the effects of depressurization on it's crew. (swollen, distended heads etc.)

The cover-up was simply Cold War SOP.

[Oldschool61]

UFOs',

Yes, I think that they are at least possible. I've seen one or two things in the sky that defied explanation. We live in a big universe filled lots of stuff about which we have very little knowledge.

Roswell,

No, I'm certain it is a myth but equally certain that the official explanation is a lie.

It was a balloon being tested for high altitude electronic snooping which contained chimps. The balloon capsule failed (or was deliberately compromised) at high altitude and depressurized. The 'alien' misconception comes from the reflective, foil-like material used in it's construction and the effects of depressurization on it's crew. (swollen, distended heads etc.)

The cover-up was simply Cold War SOP.

How do you explain the Army report of a flying disc?? What about all the military personnel involved that have come forward in recent years that were there and confefssed to what actually happened (ufo etc). What good is a death bed confession if your dead??

[JimmyBlonde]

Quite simply the public infatuation with 'discs' provided a convenient red herring.

Also, the craft would have been spherical, a spherical object falling from 40,000 ft would look rather disc like after impact.

[patrat1]

in theory evrything that exists is filled with the 'void' beyond the universe....all the space between atoms is just empty nothing.

the way i understand it, there is no void beyond the universe.

because there is no beyond, outside of the universe. like i said, there is no outside.

at least thats my understanding of it.

[Oldschool61]

the way i understand it, there is no void beyond the universe.

because there is no beyond, outside of the universe. like i said, there is no outside.

at least thats my understanding of it.

Isnt thisthread about UFO's?? What does the size or speed of the universe have to do with UFO's??? Start a new thread on the origins of the universe already!!

[Rattlehead]

Witness testimoney as well as photographic evidence indicates that in all likelyhood ET's are here. There is more proof of ET than OF Jesus and people actually think he was real and we have ZERO proof ofhis exsistance.
Check out these videos with credible military personnel from private to General talking about there UFO/ET experiances.



I read the book (The Disclosure Project) and I must say there are a heck of a lot of interesting accounts by people with excellent credentials. Fascinating read.

[Lixma]

I read the book (The Disclosure Project) and I must say there are a heck of a lot of interesting accounts by people with excellent credentials. Fascinating read.

Credentials, schmedentials.

Over half a century of testimony of people seeing lights in the skies.

Over half a century of chancers claiming to have worked at this secret base or that.

Over half a century of friends of cousins of grandfathers crawling out of the woodwork to claim they held in their hands some weird metallic material on a ranch in New Mexico.

Over half a century of special people and their 'support groups' drearily interpreting their nightmares as alien abductions.

Over half a century of reports of 'craft' travelling this way and that at hypersonic speed through the atmosphere.

Over half a century of hundreds of flying saucers crashing into every acre of land that ever heard of a 'Grey'.

Over a decade of practically everyone in North America and Europe having a camera-phone or cam-corder.

And yet....and yet....

Not one single nut.

Not one single bolt.

Not one sliver of tangible evidence that any of this fantasy has any basis in reality whatsoever.


BTW: Google Dr.Steven Greer + 'Vectoring In' if you want a good laugh. Alex Heard gives a good account of him in Apocalypse Pretty Soon....he's a nutcase. He's the Richard C. Hoagland for the UFO community.

[Oldschool61]

Credentials, schmedentials.

Over half a century of testimony of people seeing lights in the skies.

Over half a century of chancers claiming to have worked at this secret base or that.

Over half a century of friends of cousins of grandfathers crawling out of the woodwork to claim they held in their hands some weird metallic material on a ranch in New Mexico.

Over half a century of special people and their 'support groups' drearily interpreting their nightmares as alien abductions.

Over half a century of reports of 'craft' travelling this way and that at hypersonic speed through the atmosphere.

Over half a century of hundreds of flying saucers crashing into every acre of land that ever heard of a 'Grey'.

Over a decade of practically everyone in North America and Europe having a camera-phone or cam-corder.

And yet....and yet....

Not one single nut.

Not one single bolt.

Not one sliver of tangible evidence that any of this fantasy has any basis in reality whatsoever.


BTW: Google Dr.Steven Greer + 'Vectoring In' if you want a good laugh. Alex Heard gives a good account of him in Apocalypse Pretty Soon....he's a nutcase. He's the Richard C. Hoagland for the UFO community.

Let me guess ...you think jesus is real though right with 2000 years of no evidence ha ha

[Lixma]

Umm....no.

[CharveL]

Let me guess ...you think jesus is real though right with 2000 years of no evidence ha ha

Actually, there is more evidence that Jesus (the man) existed, than for UFO's, which is far more than "zero". Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet there is none. NONE. All we are left with is a social phenomenon that is far more interesting in itself than a bunch of contradictory evidence about whether we get visited by aliens.

Even with that said, one can't logically discount the possibility any more than leprechaun invasions of Ireland, so I'll reserve total judgement until someone hands me a space-nut or bolt.

I think Jesus did exist, but whether the son of God, well...that's getting into religious discussion which I've no interest in, and would, incidentally, likely get this thread locked. ;)

[Oldschool61]

Actually, there is more evidence that Jesus (the man) existed, than for UFO's, which is far more than "zero". Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet there is none. NONE. All we are left with is a social phenomenon that is far more interesting in itself than a bunch of contradictory evidence about whether we get visited by aliens.

Even with that said, one can't logically discount the possibility any more than leprechaun invasions of Ireland, so I'll reserve total judgement until someone hands me a space-nut or bolt.

I think Jesus did exist, but whether the son of God, well...that's getting into religious discussion which I've no interest in, and would, incidentally, likely get this thread locked. ;)

Not one eyewitness account NOT ONE. Where you come saying there is more proof for jesus than ufos' is incredible. what proof..the bible is not proof its a book of theology aka story book with nothing in history to corroborate it.

[Rattlehead]

than for UFO's, which is far more than "zero". Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet there is none. NONE.

Not neccessarily.

The problems with evidence is that if for example Joe Soap alleges he saw or experienced something, he will either be labeled a crackpot or discredited. If someone in a position of importance sees or experiences something, he most likely will shut up about it. If not, he too would most likely be labeled a crackpot or dicredited. It's usually one or the other.

Hypothetical situation:

Some 'strange' craft crashes in my field. What do I do?
Well, most likely I would phone the local police station. They get to the scene and realise immediately that this is something that requires a higher authority. In comes the army/FBI.
Whatever evidence there is, will be confiscated right away in the interests of national security.

But let's say I don't phone the cops. I phone the local newspaper, or the local rag magazine. They come out, realise it's a huge story (potentially) and run a feature, claiming all sorts of wierd and wonderful things. There I stand with some strange piece of metal in a photo on the front page, claiming that it came from a UFO. I claim I have a truck load of the stuff back on my farm.

Depending on the credibility of the paper, it could go from a local joke into something more serious, and if so, I think I'd get a visit from a government agent before too long, if taken seriously.
Then what?

Maybe I send some pieces to a laboratory to be tested before notifying anyone. Maybe the test come back as 'unknown substance.' Would the lab phone me and tell me that, phone the local newspaper and ask them to run a story, or would they realise that they're dealing with something that needs to be reported to a higher authority like the military or a government agency? I'm guessing the latter?

No matter which way it goes, if something genuinely unexplained happened, then sooner or later (but most likely sooner) the military and government steps in, and they have all the resources under the sun to provide a counter-argument or provide counter-evidence to whatever people say. They have the authority to confiscate anything in anyone's possession in the interests of national security.

That to me is the problem with evidence in these cases.

But can we ignore the evidence of air, land and naval radar operators that have simultaneously tracked craft doing things and travelling speeds well beyond the envelope of any known aircraft? Why doesn't that count as evidence?
Is every single sighting (even by experienced pilots etc.) one of mistaken identity, tiredness or confusion?

Let's put it another way: no evidence of top secret black projects exist either. Not officially. Not one nut, one bolt. No evidence.
But we know they exist.

[Rattlehead]

Not one eyewitness account NOT ONE. Where you come saying there is more proof for jesus than ufos' is incredible. what proof..the bible is not proof its a book of theology aka story book with nothing in history to corroborate it.

Relax with the religious talk, mate. It's off-limits. :)

[Lixma]

Let's put it another way: no evidence of top secret black projects exist either. Not officially. Not one nut, one bolt. No evidence.
But we know they exist.

False analogy.

We know 'black projects' exist because we do have evidence for them. I can visit the museum and walk around a U2, an SR-71 or a F-117. No doubt in 25 years i'll be able to examine whatever the Skunk Works is working on today.

On the other hand in over 50 years of breathless testimony no-one as yet has been able to prove the existence of even an Extra Terrestrial 'post-it' note, let alone space-ship.

And best of all are the government agencies. They have been magnificent, haven't they? Who knew they could keep such a secret under wraps for so long. Bravo.

Relax with the religious talk, mate. It's off-limits.

This ET stuff actually is religious talk. Just look at the similarities....

UFO-Land has its own prophets to warn us of impending catastrophes. It has its own culturally specific witnesses, revered artefacts that get sent to some 'laboratory in Russia', dark forces pulling the strings in the background. Seems a hell of a lot of hard work to core out a cow's anus if you ask me.

[bongodriver]

But can we ignore the evidence of air, land and naval radar operators that have simultaneously tracked craft doing things and travelling speeds well beyond the envelope of any known aircraft? Why doesn't that count as evidence?
Is every single sighting (even by experienced pilots etc.) one of mistaken identity, tiredness or confusion?

radar traces are routinely recorded and can be saved in case of any significant event, why has no controller ever pulled the tapes on a claimed sighting? pilots are just people, we don't all think alike like robots, we are all as individual as the next person, so it is reasonable to assume 'some' pilots are inclined to believe in UFO's and magic fairies and will use their apparent social standing to prop up the credibility of their alleged sightings.

I for one don't believe the goverments of the world are capable of concealing any existence of ET's, if they really are visiting us then they are beyond the jurisdiction of our authorities, secret bases and installations are for nothing more than secret earthly research and development.

[Rattlehead]

Arguments noted guys.

All I'm saying is that personally I choose to keep an open mind on the subject. That's all.
Hey, maybe 99.9% of what constitutes 'evidence' of UFO's existing is false and fake. But even if 0.1% seems to be genuine, then that to me is interesting.

Bongo - Apparently (and I say this with great caution) tapes have been pulled. Thing is, who gets to review them and decide if it's genuine or not?

[Rattlehead]

False analogy.

We know 'black projects' exist because we do have evidence for them. I can visit the museum and walk around a U2, an SR-71 or a F-117. No doubt in 25 years i'll be able to examine whatever the Skunk Works is working on today.

On the other hand in over 50 years of breathless testimony no-one as yet has been able to prove the existence of even an Extra Terrestrial 'post-it' note, let alone space-ship.

And best of all are the government agencies. They have been magnificent, haven't they? Who knew they could keep such a secret under wraps for so long. Bravo.



Lixma, my point was that yes, we know black projects exist because we have been allowed to know. The SR-71 and other aircraft was eventually disclosed.
But how many years was that plane in development, being worked on ,tested, flown etc. before anyone outside of those that needed to know, knew a thing? And the same applies to any other plane that has come before or since as well. (Or any other piece of top-secret hardware for that matter.)

Who is the person or body that is running the inside scoop on the projects and revealing them to the public?

[Oldschool61]

Relax with the religious talk, mate. It's off-limits. :)

Nothing is off limits even mythology

[CharveL]

Not one eyewitness account NOT ONE. Where you come saying there is more proof for jesus than ufos' is incredible. what proof..the bible is not proof its a book of theology aka story book with nothing in history to corroborate it.

Calm down my friend, really. I'm not here to convert you from your UFO religion! I say "religion" because it seems you have the same sort of myopic zeal that some religious people have when their views are challenged by rational debate.

I just find it highly unlikely given what passes for "evidence" that ET has visited us, raped our cows and left sci-fi looking crop circles and aerobatics to enthrall us. Doesn't mean I'm right but let's just say I would take that bet any day of the week at good odds. Hell, in a way I wish I was wrong and some evidence would come forward since that would be the biggest scientific discovery of all time! Unfortunately, for all those years I wanted to believe, there just wasn't anything compelling enough - beyond some cool stories by sincere people - to lend any credence to the phenomenon.

Rattlesnake has the right outlook and makes a personal decision to believe there's something to the UFO phenomenon despite the unlikelyhood.

There's plenty of non-religious, yes circumstantial and sometimes circumspect, evidence of the existence of Jesus. His early Christianity wasn't even the most popular among the collection of prophets roaming around at the time, just that it was a useful tool for a certain future Roman emperor named Constantine...but that's another story.

Anyway, try not to take rational discussion personally and have an open mind to the possibility that everything you have wanted to believe may or may not be happening in the real world, and I will do the same!

[CharveL]

Nothing is off limits even mythology

Another assumption that can be shown as mistaken. ;)

5. Political and religious discussions are prohibited.


http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25163

[Lixma]

Lixma, my point was that yes, we know black projects exist because we have been allowed to know. The SR-71 and other aircraft was eventually disclosed.

The difference is that these aircraft/projects are conceived and controlled from day one by the government. They know exactly where these aircraft are and where they will be at any given moment. They have the luxury of dedicated, strictly off-limits test ranges in which to fly these aircraft and when they do venture out into public airspace the controllers know exactly the expected flight path. So if anything goes wrong there is an established infra-structure that will kick in to recover the aircraft ASAP. But all this is still at the mercy of the Real World. The U2 was as top secret as they come - and yet it went from first flight to being very publicly shot down in the space of just 5 years. Secrecy is almost impossible to maintain and easily lost.

Compare that to the ET situation. Allegedly, extra terrestrial craft are zooming about all over the globe. Presumably our governments have no say in where or when they fly. So if a saucer comes down (and is discovered) it will be the locals, the emergency services, the press and the police that come into contact with the wreckage/bodies long before the black helicopters even spool up their engines. The government will be the last ones to know and the last ones to react. But by that time it would have gotten out. And even if 'they' managed to put a lid on that particular crash there's always the next one. And the next one.

There is no government on Earth that could successfully keep the existence of regular visits/crashes by extra terrestrials under wraps. Goverments cannot control what they have no control over.

Sorry for getting all aphoristic at the end there.

[Rattlehead]

I just find it highly unlikely given what passes for "evidence" that ET has visited us, raped our cows


:lol::lol: I actually burst out laughing at that one.
If we start seeing cows with big onion heads and big dark scary eyes does that end the argument? :-P

[Oldschool61]

Another assumption that can be shown as mistaken. ;)

5. Political and religious discussions are prohibited.


http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25163

IM not discussing it. Im stating FACTS which are not up for discussion!

[patrat1]

Isnt thisthread about UFO's?? What does the size or speed of the universe have to do with UFO's??? Start a new thread on the origins of the universe already!!

actually the size and speed of the universe do have to do with the chances of there being alien civilizations out there. most people consider ufos to come from alien civilazations if im not mistaken.

but your right, we are getting off topic with discussing whether theres an outside or not to the universe. so i'll desist in discussing it further.

[Cataplasma]

This is a cg reproduction about what I saw in Italy in 2009. I don't know what it is but I remember that was quite scary...

[ruggbutt]

5. Political and religious discussions are prohibited.


http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25163
You were the kid that snitched off the other kids in school, huh?

[ATAG_Dutch]

Not every word on UFOs comes from ***holes or cretins. A lot comes from retired airline pilots, who can now speak as their job is not at stake.

They can also speak due to the lure of the mighty dollar. Retired airline pilots also have debts and bills to pay. If any of them really are retired airline pilots that is.

Using retired airline pilots is simply trying to lend an air of professional credibility to the arguments and is swallowed wholesale by the same gullible people I was referring to.

Credentials, schmedentials.

Over half a century of testimony of people seeing lights in the skies.

Over half a century of chancers claiming to have worked at this secret base or that.

Over half a century of friends of cousins of grandfathers crawling out of the woodwork to claim they held in their hands some weird metallic material on a ranch in New Mexico.

Over half a century of special people and their 'support groups' drearily interpreting their nightmares as alien abductions.

Over half a century of reports of 'craft' travelling this way and that at hypersonic speed through the atmosphere.

Over half a century of hundreds of flying saucers crashing into every acre of land that ever heard of a 'Grey'.

Over a decade of practically everyone in North America and Europe having a camera-phone or cam-corder.

And yet....and yet....

Not one single nut.

Not one single bolt.

Not one sliver of tangible evidence that any of this fantasy has any basis in reality whatsoever.

Juat a lot of film showing F-117's at night. Yes, they still show them as evidence of 'alien spacecraft'. Together with some borderline schizophrenics talking about abductions. Give me a break.

And Jesus was just a good socialist attempting to work under the yoke of a military dictatorship.

Karl Marx - Equal distribution of wealth, JC- 5 loaves and three fishes. Or is it 3 loaves and 5 fishes? Turn over the tables of the moneylenders anyone? 'No, no crucify him'. Good socialist. Not a deity.

[Wolf_Rider]

Isnt thisthread about UFO's?? What does the size or speed of the universe have to do with UFO's??? Start a new thread on the origins of the universe already!!

well... it all sorta, kinda, ties in together

[CharveL]

When the whole credibility thing comes up I can't help but think of the airline pilots who were reporting over comms about this UFO until they started to come in to land and realized against the treeline it was a piece of wheat stuck to their window.

Or that cop that chased Venus down winding roads for half a state not realizing it was him that was moving not his foo fighter. :-P

[hiro]

there is a possibility of UFO's . . . I think there is. Do i believe those alien shows?

Nope. Not since the alien autopsy hoax and the pictures of triangular shaped aircraft that looks like have blue.

Or the one with the cylindrical shaped rocket that burned and gave radiation burns to the witnesses (US govt testing of nuclear jet engines . . .) and how brilliant and awesome coloring the exhaust was . . .


astronomers are discovering more solar systems with a sun with a planet in the habitable "ring"* for earth based life.

*orbit / zone / distance from sun to sustain life without frying or freezing it


But alien life may have a different set of natural boundaries and laws set up for it and may not require the same habitable ring


At the same time sun dancing making lights on off your canopy can explain
that bend the laws of aerodynamics as human aerospace vehicles are capable



And why do you have to bring religion into this. The Christians have 1 UP in this area because TONS of credible witness to weird things, like WW 2 nuking and the only building left at ground zero was German Christian missionary home or how they have tons of saints where their bodies are uncorrupted for hundreds of years.



Human understanding only gets us so far. We don't know everything, nor will we ever be.

That's why its in the human spirit to question, to ask, to seek. And sometimes some shortchange by finding the quick answer or making up truth.

[Troll2k]

http://www.space.com/12475-ufo-ocean-floor.html

[Oldschool61]

And why do you have to bring religion into this. The Christians have 1 UP in this area because TONS of credible witness to weird things, like WW 2 nuking and the only building left at ground zero was German Christian missionary home or how they have tons of saints where their bodies are uncorrupted for hundreds of years.



Well since you asked, because people believe in there mythological person despite no evidence yet make fun of UFO's when there are hundreds of credible witness's.
And contrary to your claims of evidence there is none despite your wishfull thinking. I have been researching mythological deities for several years and everyone has ended up being false or just another myth.

We nuked Germany in WW2? I thought that was Japan. Witness to something rare is not proof of anything. Saints are normal people.
If that is your standard for evidence than by your definition UFO's are 100% real.

[SEE]

UFO's, ET life and the mysteries of the universe are fascinating topics. When I look up in the middle of the night I am looking back in time. How far back in time depends on the distance of the star or galaxy.

It may well be that what I am looking at no longer exists or something that does exist in my present time period has yet to appear. Life may well have established itself but what I and observatories see is the historical past not the present.

I saw a documentary on SETI and the search criteria is extremely narrow in terms of the Radio Frequency that is being searched for. SETI may never actually reveal or find evidence as it is has to work with assumptions.

Me, I keep an open mind. Charles C Clarke said something along the lines that the implications for mankind were equally imense if we were not alone or discovered that we were alone!

My only encounter with UFO's was during the weekend at 1-30 am.................on the Syndicate server!

[CharveL]

http://www.space.com/12475-ufo-ocean-floor.html

omg, something round in the ocean?

Well, I take everything I said back now!

[Xilon_x]

U.F.O. exist in the planet earth from over 1000 years past ago.
TODAY U.S.A. U.K. FRANCE RUSSIA ENGLAND GERMANY ITALY(VATICAN) have this secret.
OBAMA have this secret in the blue book.
ANTARTIDE is THE KEY OF ALL SECRETS yes in ANTARDITE EXIST SECRET BASE FOR STUDY NEW TECNOLGY AND NEW FORM EXTRATERRIASTRIAL LIFE.
BASE IN ATRDITE ITALY FRANCE U.S.A. U.K. RUSSIA GERMANY ecc.ec.

[Ali Fish]

what about the mess that is the disclosure project ?

[CharveL]

Well since you asked, because people believe in there mythological person despite no evidence yet make fun of UFO's when there are hundreds of credible witness's.
And contrary to your claims of evidence there is none despite your wishfull thinking. I have been researching mythological deities for several years and everyone has ended up being false or just another myth.

We nuked Germany in WW2? I thought that was Japan. Witness to something rare is not proof of anything. Saints are normal people.
If that is your standard for evidence than by your definition UFO's are 100% real.

I really hate to harp on you Oldschool61, and respect your apparent strong faith in aliens, but when you come up with glaring logical fallacies all in one paragraph it's difficult to ignore.

You may want to hit the books a bit harder as there happens to be quite a few historically documented witnesses of the man "Jesus" and his cult than just the bible. Personally, I don't think he was the "son of God" but it doesn't mean he didn't exist.

But anyway, I find it amusing how you managed to miss that in your extensive "research" and yet are so willing to label UFO witnesses as credible and somehow make the leap of logic that alien visitations are more "true" because of this.

Be honest with yourself. You choose to believe in cow-punching, sky-dancing visitors from space simply on faith because of a preponderance of circumstantial second-hand stories by people you don't know, yet somehow are credible because of a badge or pilot's license.

The incredible irony here is that you are so quick to dismiss the experience of millions of people, from all walks of life including pilots and police, that claim personal experience of their God, yet will take perhaps thousands of UFO alien claims as somehow overwhelming evidence.

I'm fine with the fact you believe in alien flying saucers but from my perspective, and the standard of logical reasoning, it's just as likely there is a bearded man up there arbitrarily judging us as there are grey aliens with big eyes doing the same.

[Lixma]

what about the mess that is the disclosure project ?

The Disclosure Project is just another strain of modern apocalypticism. It's the same phenomena seen in religious faiths, conspiracy communities (9/11, JFK, Illuminati etc), 2012 Mayan prophecies and extreme political movements.

'Disclosure' is the UFO community's equivalent of the 'unbinding of seals'; a time when all will be revealed, governments come clean, the scales will fall from our eyes, and the believers will be vindicated. And all this is going to happen any second now so be prepared! But in the meantime please consider buying our latest DVD or attending our convention where we reveal even more evidence of this nefarious cover up.

I mentioned him earlier but it's worth Googling Dr. Steven Greer. Among other lunacies attributable to him he used to go out into fields with a pair of flash-lights and wave them about. He was doing this, he claimed, in order to 'vector in' ET craft. Yes, it is as dumb as it sounds.

[Ali Fish]

The Disclosure Project is just another strain of modern apocalypticism. It's the same phenomena seen in religious faiths, conspiracy communities (9/11, JFK, Illuminati etc), 2012 Mayan prophecies and extreme political movements.

'Disclosure' is the UFO community's equivalent of the 'unbinding of seals'; a time when all will be revealed, governments come clean, the scales will fall from our eyes, and the believers will be vindicated. And all this is going to happen any second now so be prepared! But in the meantime please consider buying our latest DVD or attending our convention where we reveal even more evidence of this nefarious cover up.

I mentioned him earlier but it's worth Googling Dr. Steven Greer. Among other lunacies attributable to him he used to go out into fields with a pair of flash-lights and wave them about. He was doing this, he claimed, in order to 'vector in' ET craft. Yes, it is as dumb as it sounds.

hehe indeed it is the best of bullpoo. What is the name of that mountain that folks sit under watching the lights ? ive seen a british program following the same nonsense, well it did feature danny dyer.

i remeber a long interview with clifford stone LOL it wasn't bad untill he announced he was prone to having invisable friends as a child LOL \o/

edit: heres the vid part 3, i cant bring myself to watch it again but its in 1 of the several parts.(part4@08:50) "he played with other children that nobody else could see, and for him that was normal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-rn3olxvhE

Another fabulous cliche i love with all this is the "special effects video editor captures alien spacecraft on video" LOL \o/ \o/ \o/

[Lixma]

By Jove! We're talking serious woo with this Clifford Stone chap.

Underground bases, wormholes, 57 different species of aliens including reptilians, an alien chum called Corona....it never ends.

When I worked at Montauk, I encountered an occasional alien species known as a Reptilian. They seemed to pop in and out of physical reality. The Reptilians primarily use the lower astral realms as their reference point, or point of entry, into physical reality.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_typologies.htm

But, hey.....he was a Sergeant in the U.S. Army so it's probably true.

I, for one, welcome our new DRAGONWORM overlords.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_races00.htm

[Lixma]

Oh, some of these are just too good!

Excerpts from the helpful index of Alien species....

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_races00.htm

AMOEBA-LIKE CREATURES
Over polar regions of the earth. No name that I can find. These have shown up periodically over the last ten years. NASA is working on this. Every time they've been detected, all kinds of strange illnesses break out. They don't how they can stay alive and be in outer space.

DWARFS
Diminutive humans who have allegedly been encountered in or near caverns in various parts of the world, including northern California and the south-eastern Arizona / south-western New Mexico region and in some in connection to UFO's, although most reported 'dwarf' sightings in connection to UFO's are actually sightings of the saurian 'greys'. These should not be confused with the small 'elementals' or 'nature spirits' which some believe are ethereal in nature yet have the ability to appear in solid or semi-solid form at times.

The Dwarf races are allegedly just as human as surface peoples but average between 3 to 4 ft. in height, although at times they have been seen as small as two feet. As with the 'giants' or 'Els' this diminutivity may have resulted in a genetic anomaly which ran it's course due to the separation of their race(s) from the International 'gene pool'. They allegedly live in subterranean systems to a large extent as a 'protective' measure. And as we've said, some allegedly possess 'aerial disk' technology and interplanetary travel capabilities.

JAWAS
Another group of extraterrestrials has been termed the ’Jawas’, after their resemblance to the creatures in the film, Star Wars. This groups is distinguished by their clothing. They wearhoods and robes, are generally short, 3-4 1/2 ft. tall and their faces are concealed by the shadows thrown by their hoods. There has been reports that this species has glowing eyes.

PHILADELPHIA PROJECT ALIENS
I refer to them as this because I wasn’t given a name for this type of alien. They were detected as one of their ships got caught up and sucked in with the Eldrich, which ended up 40 years , August 12, 1983, later at Montauk. They were about 6 foot 5 inches tall. They were essentially human in appearance. They had dark leathery skin. They had no hair. Where they came from is not for sure.

ZOMBIES
Humans with alien brain implants programmed to help overthrow Mankind in the NEAR FUTURE.

So there!

[Oldschool61]

You may want to hit the books a bit harder as there happens to be quite a few historically documented witnesses of the man "Jesus" and his cult than just the bible. Personally, I don't think he was the "son of God" but it doesn't mean he didn't exist.

.

Actually your mistaken about the historical evidence "documented witnesses" thats funny becasuse there are none. Debunking mythical christian deities has become my pastime since I dropped out of being a catholic sheeple. If one spends time with an open mind and see's the big picture with all the bad thinks religion has caused "hitler comes to mind" the more one see's that its all ancient mythology. There are several deities that have the nearly the same stories as Hesus. Horus , Mythra etc.. all born of a virgin, raised someone from dead etc hundreds of years earlier and same magical doings yet not one eyewitness.

[unreasonable]

I really hate to harp on you Oldschool61, and respect your apparent strong faith in aliens, but when you come up with glaring logical fallacies all in one paragraph it's difficult to ignore.

Edited for brevity..

I'm fine with the fact you believe in alien flying saucers but from my perspective, and the standard of logical reasoning, it's just as likely there is a bearded man up there arbitrarily judging us as there are grey aliens with big eyes doing the same.

Surely you do not mean this (if I am right in thinking that by "bearded man" you mean a conventional patriarchal deity)?

The existence of grey aliens with big eyes is an empirical issue - you assert (and I would agree) that there is no credible evidence for their existence. But without an assumption that life only evolved once in the universe there is surely a tiny possiblity that they are indeed there, watching and judging from behind their stealth fields, descending occasionally to probe the fundament of an unwary midwesterner.

By contrast, the existence or otherwise of a patriarchal deity is not an empirical matter of uncertain status. So probability does not come into it.

(Disclaimer: this comment should not be taken to be part of a religious discussion. It is a comment about what a religious discussion is).

So how can they be "equally likely"?

On another note it is surprising how long governments used to be able to keep secrets - take the Polish/UK cracking of the German Ultra code in WW2. Hundreds of people knew something about this and many a great deal, yet the general public and even professional military historians had no idea until sometime in the seventies, IIRC, when the records were released. In those days, when some elderly officer in a regimental tie sat you down and told you that you could never discuss your work even with your family, you did what you were told. Not sure how that would work now....

[CharveL]

Actually your mistaken about the historical evidence "documented witnesses" thats funny becasuse there are none. Debunking mythical christian deities has become my pastime since I dropped out of being a catholic sheeple. If one spends time with an open mind and see's the big picture with all the bad thinks religion has caused "hitler comes to mind" the more one see's that its all ancient mythology. There are several deities that have the nearly the same stories as Hesus. Horus , Mythra etc.. all born of a virgin, raised someone from dead etc hundreds of years earlier and same magical doings yet not one eyewitness.

Sounds like you're arguing with a strawman. I would agree, personally, that religion is a construct of man in order to influence or control other people much like the bulk of alien mythology. Strange that you do not see the correlation there.

I'm just saying there are "witnesses" for Jesus the man not trying to imply that this would necessitate him being the son of a God. How many times do I have to say this?

Lastly, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone these days that believe in the mythical deities you mention so I doubt it's much of a life-calling to debunk them. I merely point out the irony in your alien religion (you believe in them out of faith not evidence since, well...there isn't any).

Other than that, I agree with you. ;-)

[CharveL]

Surely you do not mean this (if I am right in thinking that by "bearded man" you mean a conventional patriarchal deity)?

The existence of grey aliens with big eyes is an empirical issue - you assert (and I would agree) that there is no credible evidence for their existence. But without an assumption that life only evolved once in the universe there is surely a tiny possiblity that they are indeed there, watching and judging from behind their stealth fields, descending occasionally to probe the fundament of an unwary midwesterner.

Sure there is. It's also remotely possible that Luthier is one of them and has to travel a couple hundred lightyears back to the office on Rigel, hence his understandable lack of communication. ;)

Seriously though, I don't look at it as impossible but simply very unlikely given the circumstances. Seems far more likely to me that it's a social and psychological phenomenon.


By contrast, the existence or otherwise of a patriarchal deity is not an empirical matter of uncertain status. So probability does not come into it.

(Disclaimer: this comment should not be taken to be part of a religious discussion. It is a comment about what a religious discussion is).

So how can they be "equally likely"?

Because both religions have multitudes of faith-based believers with no evidence beyond internal or second-hand experience. Hell, isn't the notion of God essentially an "alien" being by definition? So just different flavours of the same ice cream.

On another note it is surprising how long governments used to be able to keep secrets - take the Polish/UK cracking of the German Ultra code in WW2. Hundreds of people knew something about this and many a great deal, yet the general public and even professional military historians had no idea until sometime in the seventies, IIRC, when the records were released. In those days, when some elderly officer in a regimental tie sat you down and told you that you could never discuss your work even with your family, you did what you were told. Not sure how that would work now....

Sure, that makes sense and again it isn't impossible to hold a secret but like Lixma says, we're talking over 50 years here, multiple governments that can't agree on anything else, and one or multiple alien species visiting our planet wherever the hell they feel like it. I say, do the math.

People seem to have a need for the more dramatic story over the mundane, and answers for the cold finality of life and death. The UFO phenomenon seems to me to be a pseudo-scientific fill-in for the hole left behind from the decline of religion.

Until I get that alien paperclip or bumper sticker to run through some real scientific testing then I'll remain a skeptic with an open mind. After 30+ years of interest and fascination with the UFO phenomenon lets just say that it's had a more than reasonable chance to come up with something beyond some spooky documentaries and fuzzy pics to pass muster.

[Lixma]

Just a quick post on the complete charlatanism of Dr. Steven Greer. Head of the Disclosure Project. Numero Uno of the "ETs are visiting us" community.

First take a look at this forum post titled "The latest from Steven Greer".

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14076&highlight=Greer+Latest

Some choice highlights....

luv Steven Greer. Thank you so much for posting this. I think the big issue is how to survive the solar storm in 2012 and bring new energy into the world so we can get beyond the current slave matrix.

Yeah, the United Nations are working on that i've every confidence.

In the meantime people are getting impatient....

I just hope the disclosure is going to happen soon because I am so tired of waiting...

I'm tired of being tired. I hope the show gets started soon, cause I'm running out of steam

You're going to be waiting a while longer i'm afraid. Anyone who has visited the Rapture Ready forums will see the same depressing sights. "How long oh Lord must we wait?".

Luckily for all concerned Dr. Greer has a whole raft of initiatives to keep your wallet slim while we wait for the inevitable revelations.

I was looking at the CSETI website today for the programs. Dr. Greer is teaching quite a few sessions over the coming months in the US. Expensive though. Its $995US for a weeks training plus accomodation & food, plus transportation. I would love to attend a training session, but too expenisve for me. I better start buying lottery tickets. Without the knowledge, we are probably not going to have much luck.

Training for what?, you may ask. Training yourself to contact ETs no less!

Here's a 2 week trip to Stonehenge (natch) where you can sit around pretending your in contact with aliens. And it's only $3840!

http://www.cseti.org/england2011.shtml

But if you can't afford that there's always an alternative. How about an iPhone app? Yes indeed, the perfect gift for the ET contactee on the move.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6161/tardis.jpg


Here's a picture of the cretin....

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7140/twat.gif

Remember kids, if you think this man is in any way credible - you are an idiot.

:cool:

[Oldschool61]

I'm just saying there are "witnesses" for Jesus the man

;-)

There are no historical writings or records from primary or contemporary witnesses in the first half of the first century that mention the Jesus of christianity. Philo of Alexandria is the best know historian that lived during the time of the alleged jesus. Yet not once does he ever mention anyone close to jesus. He never even mentions the town of Nazareth which is alleged to be where jesus is from. Not one historian prior to the 3rd century ever mentions a historical town of nazareth. The town didnt exist in historical record until the 3rd century. So how could jesus be born in a city that didnt exist? Josephus never even mentions it.

[CharveL]

Actually I give the guy props. He found himself a niche job that pays very well and made himself a rockstar amongst his following.

Of course, much like Scientology or anyone in the Psychic field, there's nothing to what he's teaching but he knows that quite well and is more than willing to help fools part with their money willingly.

I'm thinking of setting up a tertiary business to siphon some of that easy money off, hook myself with some credentials, and making an assload of money. The beauty of the internet is that it makes a pretty good freak-funnel. Anyone want in on this?

[Oldschool61]

Actually I give the guy props. He found himself a niche job that pays very well and made himself a rockstar amongst his following.

Of course, much like Scientology or anyone in the Psychic field, there's nothing to what he's teaching but he knows that quite well and is more than willing to help fools part with their money willingly.

I'm thinking of setting up a tertiary business to siphon some of that easy money off, hook myself with some credentials, and making an assload of money. The beauty of the internet is that it makes a pretty good freak-funnel. Anyone want in on this?

Start your own church!! Tax free and you dont have to prove anything.
You sell an invisable product, couldnt be easier!!

[CharveL]

Hmm, I suck at sermons. And the competition seems a bit daunting out there in that field.

I admit it will be hard to pull off the whole nerd look but at least I don't need to wear a 3 piece suit, just an official golf shirt (avail. soon for $39.95 in green only).

Pseudo-science FTMFW! :cool:

[ATAG_Dutch]

Isn't that Greer bloke the same one who said he worked at Roswell helping to back engineer alien spacecraft, and the fact that there were no records of this in existence was a CIA coverup?

The one who has a number of fraud convictions that were also fabricated by the CIA?
The one who's still earning millions giving 'lectures on his experiences'.

Or is that another money hungry moral free cretin?

[Lixma]

Isn't that Greer bloke the same one who said he worked at Roswell helping to back engineer alien spacecraft, and the fact that there were no records of this in existence was a CIA coverup?

The one who has a number of fraud convictions that were also fabricated by the CIA?
The one who's still earning millions giving 'lectures on his experiences'.

Or is that another money hungry moral free cretin?

I believe you're thinking of one Bob Lazar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2172/boblazar.gif

[ATAG_Dutch]

That's the gentleman in question. Thanks mate!

[CharveL]

Hey the simpletons need someone to throw their money at and I'm much better looking than these guys!

[Rattlehead]

I must admit that Steven Greer sounds like a nut. I read that one book of his (Disclosure Project) and much in it sounded plausible, but I had no idea of his other claims.

[Skoshi Tiger]

After 30+ years of interest and fascination with the UFO phenomenon lets just say that it's had a more than reasonable chance to come up with something beyond some spooky documentaries and fuzzy pics to pass muster.

They have pictures of Fuzzies? This is amazing! Where do I get my ticket to Zarathustra????

http://www.manybooks.net/titles/piperh1813718137.html

[III/JG11_Simmox]

hard to argue with someone like mercury astronaut gordon cooper and apollo edgar mitchell,even armstrong said they are real.
their comments are pretty hard to ignore and the fact they got alot closer than any of us

history shows us that anything the governments tell you is generally the opposite

two good ones to watch on Utube

greatest story ever denied
and
out of the blue

well worth the effort to watch them

Salute

[ruggbutt]

I was abducted by aliens when I was 11. They anally probed me. I didn't like it























At first. :grin:

[CharveL]

I must admit that Steven Greer sounds like a nut. I read that one book of his (Disclosure Project) and much in it sounded plausible, but I had no idea of his other claims.

The biggest lies are perpetuated by carefully sewing little grains of truth. For a person who wants to believe something, the little truth is enough to legitimize the grand lie.

I believe the only way to free ourselves from manipulation be it little white lies from a friend we like, corporate fanboism/anti-fanboism, or grander scale manipulations like 9/11 conspirasists or Astrology; is to subject everything you take in to the cold, harsh light of logic, to the best of our ability. Even then, our subconscious bias will nudge us into directions we wish to believe but the more vigilant and open minded we are the less chance we have to become a tool for someone else's agenda.

[ATAG_Dutch]

''I was abducted by aliens when I was 11. They anally probed me. I didn't like it. At first :D''


In the UK, this is referred to as 'The National Health Service'. ;)

[unreasonable]

''I was abducted by aliens when I was 11. They anally probed me. I didn't like it. At first :D''


In the UK, this is referred to as 'The National Health Service'. ;)

Or "public school". ;-)

[Herbs107]

According to a friend of mine the aliens have a base on the dark side of the moon, and also the moon is hollow because the little green critters are mining it. He also went on to tell me that when one of the Apollo capsules passed behind the moon(dont know which one) one of the astronauts said to NASA "There is a Santa Claus". This my friend told me meant that they could see the alien factories. He also told me there is a NASA recording of Neil Armstrong saying that they were been watched as they took a moon walk. On a side note this person isnt my friend anymore!!

[unreasonable]

So we are mostly agreed that the "little green men" advocates are wrong and either frauds or sincere but in the grip of a quasi-religious world view: but are they not harmless?

Given the extraordinary sorts of beliefs that flourish in the world (carefully not identifying the main culprits for fear of retribution - they get SO ANGRY when their precious beliefs are held up to ridicule, or even inspection), I would have thought that the UFOlogists are among the least harmful of cranks.

Perhaps they should be encouraged: after all they are highly unlikely to be converted to sceptical empiricism if dissuaded of their beliefs, more likely to plunge into something more irrational and dangerous that satisfies their probing cravings.

[SlipBall]

Today Wednesday we will hear of many UFO site ings :grin:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/HypersonicPlane.jpg

[Oldschool61]

hard to argue with someone like mercury astronaut gordon cooper and apollo edgar mitchell,even armstrong said they are real.
their comments are pretty hard to ignore and the fact they got alot closer than any of us

history shows us that anything the governments tell you is generally the opposite

two good ones to watch on Utube

greatest story ever denied
and
out of the blue

well worth the effort to watch them

Salute


Here is out of the blue it has Col. Gordon Cooper and Dr Edgar Mitchell,
but what do these retards know they are just astronuts right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBRX2OwnfY8

[CharveL]

Here is out of the blue it has Col. Gordon Cooper and Dr Edgar Mitchell,
but what do these retards know they are just astronuts right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBRX2OwnfY8

Now you're starting to get it, although I wouldn't go so far as to call them retards. But being highly respected astronauts does kinda make them experts on everything else of course. :roll: Even still, what I saw was them speculating on the chances for life in the galaxy, same as I believe, not that they are here to save the enlightened few from the tyranny of co-workers that call you a nerd under their breath at the water cooler. I didn't watch long enough to see if they had UFO stories like the one that fooled John Glenn(?). I'll bet that was embarrasing!:grin:

I could only stomach about the first 5 minutes of this "documentary" what with the spooky space theme music, Ken Burns effect on still photos of gaseous nebulae, and the quick interview blurbs. C'mon people haven't you seen the same kind of "documentary" techniques for retarded ideas like Nostradamus and killer bees overtaking the world?

Much like the global warming models, the Drake equation is at best a very shallow attempt at quantifying the likelihood of intelligent life on other planets in our galaxy. Unfortunately, it is already being revised based on new things we're learning about extra solar planetary systems that factor in more dynamics that Drake never considered. But even still I have to say with the multitude of stars in our galaxy it seems likely there's life, even intelligent life out there! There I said it.

However, unless you like to believe in magic wands or leprechauns just because they sound pretty cool, we have nothing to indicate there's any practical means of travel at or beyond the speed of light. Sure maybe we just don't know enough yet but there isn't anything that even suggests the possibility of maybe transporting a particle let alone a living being safely, so that means you choose to believe in magic, just...because.

So given that universal limitation that puts any star beyond let's say 50 light years away at the point of being impractical for visitation. Not so many stars now huh? It's ok to consider the possibility that an advanced alien race found some way around it, or maybe they live indefinitely and can spend lots of time on a space ship, or whatever, but at the point you make the leap of logic to say "yes, there are aliens here" you might as well just decide to believe in the neighbourhood garden gnomes stealing one sock out of your drawer every wash cycle.

If you've been around in life long enough and paid attention you'd realize that all those spooky documentaries about the coming ice age, the Y2K disaster and the coming 2012 apocalypse are simply "what if" entertainment pieces thrown together by a production team looking to get the most "ooohs" and "ahhhhs" out of you to keep your attention long enough to watch the ads.

[Lixma]

Here is out of the blue it has Col. Gordon Cooper and Dr Edgar Mitchell,
but what do these retards know they are just astronuts right?

Yeah, astronauts really are the authority on UFOs.(?)

Ed Mitchell? He expressly says in the video you posted his only evidence of ETs was that he'd spoken to a couple of un-named* sources. 'Out of the Blue' has all the credibility of 'Loose Change'.

If that's your standard of evidence then you really ought to listen to Coast to Coast AM. On there you can nightly hear people claiming to be in contact with Nasa insiders, or FBI whistleblowers, or ex-CIA operatives, or 'Ascended Masters, the Greys...etc.

* surprise surprise.

[Wolf_Rider]

One of the best means of "protecting" a situation, is to give factual information to discredited nutter outlets and false information to credible outlets....

[Lixma]

So, I visited Youtube and typed in 'UFO con....'.

I selected a video that mentioned Ed Mitchell. In it he goes on about how we should join this 'galactic community' or some such....it's the standard spiel*.

If you're a masochist, here it is....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu_7hd5B-dc&feature=fvsr

But the true gems are to be found in the comments. A selection...

aliens must look at us as greedy,wastefull parasites,who will let millions starve and freeze to death,as long as we have the best cars,nicest house etc.i really wonder if we are worth saving.

From what i observed in this video since Apollo mission, they perfected and mastered the technique of invisibility and cloaking that we are still blind and still working for it for more than hundred of years.

one ufo report suggested it created such a bad boom it may of rendered an entire town unconcious in their sleep and when they awoke they wouldn't even realize and likely thought it was just a dream. these machines do things to people when they are asleep. i have seen mini black discs in my bedroom when semi awake and i was not dreaming. it teleported in my bedroom and went across the cieling. now i realize just how these things can toy with our minds and make us think we r cracking up

Has any1 thought of the possibility that Mitchell is trying to discredit the whole movement, hes constantly saying that he has seen nothing, but that he has heard others speaking of it, and he has been on the moon, saw no structures at all, and that the backside of the moon has no base, he doesn't sound like an insider at all. It might be just me but i am very suspicious about him.

Maybe aliens are the ones directing our governments social mandate?

Quality stuff.

* Let me say i've all the time in the world for pioneering astronauts. I used to be quite the M/G/Apollo buff. But that doesn't mean they get a free pass when they venture into woo-woo territory.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Let me say i've all the time in the world for pioneering astronauts. I used to be quite the M/G/Apollo buff. But that doesn't mean they get a free pass when they venture into woo-woo territory.

Indeed. The Apollo astronauts themselves all found life a bit difficult after the moon. Who wouldn't? I'd imagine once you've been there, done that, all else seems trivial.

There's a good read by Andrew Smith called 'Moondust'. It's a simple book where Smith - in around 1999/2000 - interviews the men who went to the moon .

It's quite a sad tale of alcoholism, mental breakdown, divorce, finding God and/or religious cults, and talented but obsessive behaviour such as Al Bean painting great pictures, but only of men on the moon. Worth a look.

Real space travel, astronomy and astrophysics are all interests of mine (when I can grasp the astrophysics bit), similarly science fiction can be great literature and great cinema.

Conspiracy theories/theorists and saying whatever it takes to earn either a few quid or a fortune I don't have time for, particularly when they prey on the easily led, which makes them dangerous in my opinion.

[CharveL]

Indeed. The Apollo astronauts themselves all found life a bit difficult after the moon. Who wouldn't? I'd imagine once you've been there, done that, all else seems trivial.

There's a good read by Andrew Smith called 'Moondust'. It's a simple book where Smith interviews the men who went to the moon in around 1999/2000.

It's quite a sad tale of alcoholism, mental breakdown, divorce, finding God and/or religious cults, and talented but obsessive behaviour such as Al Bean painting great pictures, but only of men on the moon. Worth a look.

Real space travel, astronomy and astrophysics are all interests of mine (when I can grasp the astrophysics bit), similarly science fiction can be great literature and great cinema.

Conspiracy theories/theorists and saying whatever it takes to earn a fortune I don't have time for, particularly when they prey on the easily led, which makes them dangerous to my mind.

Good post.

[Oldschool61]

Yeah, astronauts really are the authority on UFOs.(?)

Ed Mitchell? He expressly says in the video you posted his only evidence of ETs was that he'd spoken to a couple of un-named* sources. 'Out of the Blue' has all the credibility of 'Loose Change'.

If that's your standard of evidence then you really ought to listen to Coast to Coast AM. On there you can nightly hear people claiming to be in contact with Nasa insiders, or FBI whistleblowers, or ex-CIA operatives, or 'Ascended Masters, the Greys...etc.

* surprise surprise.

Thats more evidence than there is for God or jesus.

[louisv]

...He also went on to tell me that when one of the Apollo capsules passed behind the moon(dont know which one) one of the astronauts said to NASA "There is a Santa Claus"....

That much is true...Apollo 8 went behind the moon on Christmas eve (first time humans behind a celestial body) and when they emerged, commander Frank Borman read a passage from the Bible and also said they had seen Santa Claus...Like they do on the news sometimes, you know when they say they've seen Santa Claus on the radar on Christmas day (in North America anyway) It was a nice moment...but nothing to do with UFOs :-P

Louis

[Lixma]

Thats more evidence than there is for God or jesus.

Your point being?

[Oldschool61]

Your point being?

Billions of people believe in something that has absolutley no historical ,scientific or eyewitness evidence. So based on that criteria UFO witnesses are just as credible.

[Lixma]

There's a good read by Andrew Smith called 'Moondust'. It's a simple book where Smith - in around 1999/2000 - interviews the men who went to the moon .

Yep, read it. I enjoyed the part when the author expressed his anxiety about interviewing Gene Cernan, hoping he wouldn't be subject to Cernan's familiar 'after-dinner', 'flowery' descriptions of 17. Sure enough within seconds of asking Gene about his experience the author is treated to exactly that.

Only it dawns on Smith that no matter how corny or hackneyed it may sound to familiar ears, Gene Cernan is nevertheless the only one out of just 12 people on Earth who has made a concerted attempt to communicate the human feelings involved in walking upon another world to the public. That's a hell of a task.

Glad you brought it up, i'll have to dig it out if I still have it.

[Lixma]

Billions of people believe in something that has absolutley no historical ,scientific or eyewitness evidence. So based on that criteria UFO witnesses are just as credible.

I agree.

I think Oldschool's beginning to see the light, chaps! We nearly have him in our clutches!!

:cool:

[Oldschool61]

I agree.

I think Oldschool's beginning to see the light, chaps! We nearly have him in our clutches!!

:cool:

Oh your a freethinker too.

[Wandalen]

Interesting topic:) Think it's very entertaining to look at all the weird youtube videos. But this is just some of the most believable I've seen, especially when it comes from such a person of such caliber.
But still a little hard and believe in :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBhME9RCjc&feature=related

[Lixma]

People should hear what is being said rather than just listening to who is saying it.

In that video Cooper describes seeing extra terrestrial craft while flying in Europe during the war. Assuming these things are physical real (which, given the description of them making impossible manoeuvres it seems unlikely) then how on Earth does he know they are extra terrestrial in origin? Answer: he doesn't. He hasn't a clue what he saw....but a lot of people really want it to have been extra terrestrials; including, it seems, Cooper.

Note also his account of the saucer photograph. A couple of guys under his supervision claim to have taken a picture of a flying saucer that helpfully landed in front of them and then flew off again. Cooper then, after establishing the proper procedure for these things, instructs the cameramen to send the negatives off to God knows where. End of story. Call Spielberg!

[Oldschool61]

[QUOTE=Lixma;322278]People should hear what is being said rather than just listening to who is saying it.

![/QUOTE

Ok now follow me closly so you dont get confused....ok here goes...he was a fighter pilot who is a trained observer. He know what type of craft humans fly and what there capabilities are. When you see something that has no wings or signs of propulsion and can fly circles around anything you have then its a pretty good chance its not of this planet. Typically airforce pilots are flying the most advanced crafts humans can make.

[Rattlehead]

One of the best means of "protecting" a situation, is to give factual information to discredited nutter outlets and false information to credible outlets....

Very true.

[Rattlehead]

People should hear what is being said rather than just listening to who is saying it.

In that video Cooper describes seeing extra terrestrial craft while flying in Europe during the war. Assuming these things are physical real (which, given the description of them making impossible manoeuvres it seems unlikely) then how on Earth does he know they are extra terrestrial in origin? Answer: he doesn't. He hasn't a clue what he saw....but a lot of people really want it to have been extra terrestrials; including, it seems, Cooper.



What makes you state that Cooper wanted what he saw to be of extra-terrestrial origin? You're reaching here I feel.
I think it's a perfectly valid assumption considering the performance of these aircraft relative to his own, which were supposedly cutting edge for the time.
What was he supposed to think?

Unfortunately it's a common trend to immediately set about discrediting witnesses of UFO events. Yes, pilots and astronauts are ultimately just human beings like the rest of us, but at the same time they I feel are a lot less likely to blurt out 'I saw a UFO' than Joe Soap, given their relative expertise of identifying aircraft and their reputations as professionals.

The whole UFO phenomenon has become very sensationalist over the years, and I do think it's pertinent to be on the lookout for the exaggerated, sensationalist aspect of the subject and guard against it, but at the same time it's easy to fall into the mindset that everyone has an agenda or that every single sighting or encounter with UFO phenomena does not merit scrutiny.

[Lixma]

Oldschool, this reply to Rattlehead will serve ably, I think, as a reply to you.

What makes you state that Cooper wanted what he saw to be of extra-terrestrial origin? You're reaching here I feel.
I took it from the fact that in the video he called these unknown objects extra terrestrial before he'd even described their characteristics.

Although it is funny. You've just watched a man claim he saw alien spaceships and you think i'm reaching! :-P

I think it's a perfectly valid assumption considering the performance of these aircraft relative to his own, which were supposedly cutting edge for the time. What was he supposed to think?

The 'assumption' (actually a conclusion) could not be less valid if it tried. It's a text-book case of the argument from ignorance: "I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be from outer space.".

Let's couch that in different terms to better see the error.

"I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be from another dimension."

"I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be demonic apparitions."

"I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be witches in flight."

There is no evidence at all that whatever Cooper saw is in any way extra terrestrial. None. Weird, yes. Worthy of further investigation? Sure. But to arrive at the conclusion of ETs is just a leap in the dark.

Unfortunately it's a common trend to immediately set about discrediting witnesses of UFO events.

Don't mistake using sceptical tools as 'discrediting'. Examining logically a person's testimony is not the same as discrediting the source.

Yes, pilots and astronauts are ultimately just human beings like the rest of us, but at the same time they I feel are a lot less likely to blurt out 'I saw a UFO' than Joe Soap, given their relative expertise of identifying aircraft and their reputations as professionals.

It's not the announcement of seeing UFOs that's the problem. It's their completely un-supported identification as ETs, angels, demons or fairies that causes trouble.

The whole UFO phenomenon has become very sensationalist over the years, and I do think it's pertinent to be on the lookout for the exaggerated, sensationalist aspect of the subject and guard against it, but at the same time it's easy to fall into the mindset that everyone has an agenda or that every single sighting or encounter with UFO phenomena does not merit scrutiny.

Couldn't agree more.

I've seen a UFO. An unspectacular but utterly baffling 10 seconds of my life. I'm not sceptical of UFOs. I'm sceptical of the claims about UFOs.

[Lixma]

Just a quick follow up. The Wiki page on Foo Fighters has an interesting reference at the bottom. It's mentions a study by the United States Navy Bureau of Medicine called Project X-148-AV-4-3.

During April 1945, the US Navy began to experiment on visual illusions as experienced by night time aviators......This project pioneered the study of aviators' vertigo and was initiated because a wide variety of anomalous events were being reported by night time aviators.

The head of the study, Dr. Edgar Vinacke leaves us this interesting quote...

Pilots do not have sufficient information about phenomena of disorientation, and, as a corollary, are given considerable disorganized, incomplete, and inaccurate information. They are largely dependent upon their own experience, which must supplement and interpret the traditions about 'vertigo' which are passed on to them. When a concept thus grows out of anecdotes cemented together with practical necessity, it is bound to acquire elements of mystery. So far as 'vertigo' is concerned, no one really knows more than a small part of the facts, but a great deal of the peril. Since aviators are not skilled observers of human behavior, they usually have only the vaguest understanding of their own feelings. Like other naive persons, therefore, they have simply adopted a term to cover a multitude of otherwise inexplicable events.

(my emphasis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter

Am I suggesting that vertigo is therefore the cause of all these sightings? No. And to even suggest the possibility that Gordo Cooper of all people may have suffered from vertigo is no doubt considered by some to be a slight upon his name.

Nevertheless, it demonstrates that pilots (trained observers or otherwise) are every bit as susceptible to disorientation as the rest of us mortals. And given our knowledge of these effects it really should temper our desire to cry ET when other, more mundane (and much more serious) factors are at play.

[CharveL]

Lixma, kudos to you for applying critical reasoning and logic to this subject. It really should be taught in schools from an early age.

Also props to Oldschool, Luisv, Rattlehead and Dutch for entering the debate with an open mind and calm demeanor. Too often, otherwise good natured debates of this sort get heated when one's long-held beliefs are challenged and I think that's a measure of intelligence, whatever any of us gets out of this by the time it gets locked down. ;)

[Lixma]

I'm part of the Illuminati's disinformation bureau.

It's a living.

:cool:

[Rattlehead]

.

Although it is funny. You've just watched a man claim he saw alien spaceships and you think i'm reaching! :-P



Lol, I guess you have a point there. :)

[CharveL]

I'm part of the Illuminati's disinformation bureau.

It's a living.

:cool:

Lucky you. I'm still at initiate status and not even allowed to stand behind the curtain or perform level 2 anal probes.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I remember an occasion when I was riding a very slow motorcycle down a very dark and winding country 'A' road. (It was the A57- Snake Pass between Sheffield and Glossop for the Brits here). I was pretty tired at the time.

I came around a corner and had to slam on the brakes because a deer had run across the road in front of me.

It shook me up a bit because the deer instantly disappeared. For the rest of the journey I was seeing deer in every reflection from the walls and bushes.

Trouble is, there aren't any deer in that area to my knowledge, so I put it down to tiredness, imagination and the lonely feeling of being on my own on a dark and winding country road.

No doubt other people would have seen something that proved that aliens were already amongst us. ;)

[CharveL]

I remember an occasion when I was riding a very slow motorcycle down a very dark and winding country 'A' road. (It was the A57- Snake Pass between Sheffield and Glossop for the Brits here). I was pretty tired at the time.

I came around a corner and had to slam on the brakes because a deer had run across the road in front of me.

It shook me up a bit because the deer instantly disappeared. For the rest of the journey I was seeing deer in every reflection from the walls and bushes.

Trouble is, there aren't any deer in that area to my knowledge, so I put it down to tiredness, imagination and the lonely feeling of being on my own on a dark and winding country road.

No doubt other people would have seen something that proved that aliens were already amongst us. ;)

I think it would be safe to say that it really was an alien deer.

You know, since they are generally not around those parts. ;-)

[ATAG_Dutch]

I think it would be safe to say that it really was an alien deer.

You know, since they are generally not around those parts. ;-)

Ahhh, thanks. Yep that would explain it perfectly, cheers.

Do you know where I can find Bob Lazar's e-mail address? Thanks.;-)

[Oldschool61]

Just a quick follow up. The Wiki page on Foo Fighters has an interesting reference at the bottom. It's mentions a study by the United States Navy Bureau of Medicine called Project X-148-AV-4-3.



The head of the study, Dr. Edgar Vinacke leaves us this interesting quote...



(my emphasis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter

Am I suggesting that vertigo is therefore the cause of all these sightings? No. And to even suggest the possibility that Gordo Cooper of all people may have suffered from vertigo is no doubt considered by some to be a slight upon his name.

Nevertheless, it demonstrates that pilots (trained observers or otherwise) are every bit as susceptible to disorientation as the rest of us mortals. And given our knowledge of these effects it really should temper our desire to cry ET when other, more mundane (and much more serious) factors are at play.

Lixma since nothing is real to you I was wondering what your beliefs are when it comes to supernatural beings like say god or the jesus of christianity. Do you think god exists? If so why and what evidence do you have to support your claim??
Do you think jesus was real? If so what evidence or proof do you have to support that?
If you dont take actual eyewitness testimony at face value than certainly you must be an atheist because there is no proof of god or jesus..(mohammed was real but just another goat herder who liked little girls)

[unreasonable]

O-oh.

Initiate countdown to locking procedure, 10, 9, 8...

[Lixma]

Lixma since nothing is real to you I was wondering what your beliefs are when it comes to supernatural beings like say god or the jesus of christianity.

"Nothing is real to me?". I don't in all honesty know how you arrived there. But anyway....

Do you think god exists? If so why and what evidence do you have to support your claim??

I hold no belief either way in the existence of a god. There might be one, there might not. As to the peculiar varieties of god - Zeus, Yaweh, Odin, Xenu...these gods I do not believe exist.

Amongst other things I see them as culturally specific projections; just as a pack of wolves would endow their god with a perfect nose, so too our own people endow their gods with perfect reflections of their own favoured attributes.

Do you think jesus was real?

I've no idea whether he was or not. I don't believe he was in any way divine, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that there indeed was a real flesh and blood man called Jesus who caused a bit of a stir way back when.

Give it another 2000 years and you will be amazed at who people believe is divine. Probably L. Ron Hubbard or Lady Gaga.

[Wolf_Rider]

Stop baiting for religous or political discussion and stop taking the bait in responding

[Oldschool61]

"Nothing is real to me?". I don't in all honesty know how you arrived there. But anyway....



I hold no belief either way in the existence of a god. There might be one, there might not. As to the peculiar varieties of god - Zeus, Yaweh, Odin, Xenu...these gods I do not believe exist.

Amongst other things I see them as culturally specific projections; just as a pack of wolves would endow their god with a perfect nose, so too our own people endow their gods with perfect reflections of their own favoured attributes.



I've no idea whether he was or not. I don't believe he was in any way divine, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that there indeed was a real flesh and blood man called Jesus who caused a bit of a stir way back when.

Give it another 2000 years and you will be amazed at who people believe is divine. Probably L. Ron Hubbard or Lady Gaga.

OK good I wasnt sure if you were being honest in your skeptisism (sp).
From what I get your most likely an agnostic like myself. I however give eye witness testimony from credible people more weight than you. Especially when there are multiple witnesses to same sighting. Not everyone is crazy or out to make a buck. And lots of theoretical physicists believe now that its likely possible to travel light years away by bending space and time, we are just to primitive to figure it out now.

[Lixma]

I however give eye witness testimony from credible people more weight than you. Especially when there are multiple witnesses to same sighting.

Okay, I'm taking a risk here but i'm going to bring up a religious event witnessed by thousands of people. Now, this has nothing to do with religion so don't go off on one. It concerns the nature and reliability of eye witness testimony.

The day the sun went mental*....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

I will wager that you and I don't believe for a second that on the 13 October 1917 the sun actually....

....appeared as an opaque, spinning disc in the sky.

And yet presumably there were quite a few people in that huge crowd who would easily qualify under your standard of 'credibility'. Still, you will be inclined, as would I, to explain the event in naturalistic terms. Perhaps as a mass delusion, an optical illusion or an instance of people seeing what they expected to see...etc. I very much doubt you will entertain the thought that perhaps God really did make the sun dance for the faithful on that day.

However, when it comes to UFOs all this seemingly goes out of the window. Why is that? Why, in the case of religious visions (of which there are many) would you immediately look for a natural, down to earth explanation; but when it comes to testimony concerning un-identified flying objects you have your heart set, it appears, on advocating probably the most out-landish explanation imaginable!

Not everyone is crazy or out to make a buck.

True. But the fact is that UFOlogy is filled to the gills with crackpots and charlatans. For anyone who is truly trying to get a handle on the phenomena they have my respect and sympathies.

And lots of theoretical physicists believe now that its likely possible to travel light years away by bending space and time...

Don't confuse possibility with either probability or evidential support. The fact that wormholes may be theoretically possible in no way constitutes supporting evidence that aliens are using them to get here.

....we are just to primitive to figure it out now.

This notion of 'primitive' brings up a point I don't recall reading in this thread so far. Have you noticed how the alleged space-craft have evolved over the years? We've gone from the 1950's hub-cap style flying saucers to modern day stealthy 'black triangles'. When I was growing up in the 80's the common description for UFOs was as a 'cigar-shaped craft'. Similarly the descriptions of extra-terrestrials given by 'contactees' have undergone an obvious evolution.

How to explain this? One way to explain this is to take the testimony at face value and begin categorising all the various ETs and their ships into 'races' or 'species'. A somewhat more realistic approach is to explain this variety as the projections of culture upon a confusing and at times frightening phenomena.



* El dia el Loco Sol (or something like that...:grin:)

[Oldschool61]

Okay, I'm taking a risk here but i'm going to bring up a religious event witnessed by thousands of people. Now, this has nothing to do with religion so don't go off on one. It concerns the nature and reliability of eye witness testimony.

The day the sun went mental*....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

I will wager that you and I don't believe for a second that on the 13 October 1917 the sun actually....





* El dia el Loco Sol (or something like that...:grin:)

he magic sun is prettty easily explained with science. First problem is all the people there were there to see something so write there they are tainted. read the skeptics and scientific explanation...

"Stuart Campbell, writing for the 1989 edition of Journal of Meteorology, postulated that a cloud of stratospheric dust changed the appearance of the sun on 13 October, making it easy to look at, and causing it to appear yellow, blue, and violet. In support of his postulation, Mr. Campbell reports that a blue and reddened sun was reported in China as documented in 1983. Mr. Campbell's article does not attempt to provide evidence that might explain the reported zigzagging of the sun towards the earth[29].

Joe Nickell, a skeptic and investigator of paranormal phenomena, claims that the position of the phenomenon, as described by the various witnesses, is at the wrong azimuth and elevation to have been the sun[30]. He suggests the cause may have been a sundog. Sometimes referred to as a parhelion or "mock sun", a sundog is a relatively common atmospheric optical phenomenon associated with the reflection/refraction of sunlight by the numerous small ice crystals that make up cirrus or cirrostratus clouds. A sundog is, however, a stationary phenomenon, and would not explain the reported appearance of the "dancing sun". Nickell suggests an explanation for this and other similar phenomena may lie in temporary retinal distortion, caused by staring at the intense light and/or by the effect of darting the eyes to and fro so as to avoid completely fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage and movement)."

[Lixma]

You've missed the point.

[Oldschool61]

You've missed the point.

I get it notice I said the crowd was there looking for something to happen, that alone discredits most if not all that people saw as they were delusional before they went. Just wanted to add the rational scientific explanation for this "miracle". Hell Chris Angel performs bigger miracles than this!!

[Lixma]

Nope, you still missed the point.

:-P

We agree there are perfectly natural explanations available to us to help explain these various religious phenomena, yes?

OK.

And we agree that even if we currently do not have a rigorous scientific explanation of these phenomena there is no justification for invoking the supernatural to help explain them. Yes?

OK.

So why, then, when it comes to the subject of UFOs are you eager to discard these natural explanations in favour of the most fantastic explanation? i.e. Aliens from Outer Space.

Try this out. Here's an archetypical UFO encounter I just made up. We'll let Bob describe his experience....

I was flying my P-51 at 22,000 feet at 8:40am over Toulouse, France 1944. All of a sudden I saw three silvery objects at co-altitude, at my two o'clock, roughly a mile away. They seemed to be in formation. They stayed that way for perhaps a minute or so and so I decided to get closer and investigate. However as soon as I moved to intercept the three objects shot off at an incredible speed and I didn't see them again.

How to explain this? Well there are very many possible natural explanations for what happened. Tiredness, anxiety, vertigo, canopy reflections, hallucinations, birds, atmospheric effects, oxygen starvation, other aircraft.

But let us imagine that none of these explanations hold water, and we find that we simply do not have any explanation at all for what Bob saw. Our conclusion is therefore : "We don't know". Not "Aliens"

[Wolf_Rider]

How to explain this? Well there are very many possible natural explanations for what happened. Tiredness, anxiety, vertigo, canopy reflections, hallucinations, birds, atmospheric effects, oxygen starvation, other aircraft.

But let us imagine that none of these explanations hold water, and we find that we simply do not have any explanation at all for what Bob saw. Our conclusion is therefore : "We don't know". Not "Aliens"



if none hold water, then yes, the "We don't know" holds true and captures the tag: Unidentified Flying Object... and "not of this world" is a natural extrapolation.

Crikey some of the artifacts dug up from some archeological sites have distinct shape to modern aircraft... but these are thousands of years old.
wall drawings... same thing - fantastically shaped beings, and some of which have uncanny similarity to modern experiments with plasma - others? who knows.
The Muhahubtra (sp) with its references to flying machines


so, go figure


Oh, and "bending space"... faster than light travel

[Lixma]

"not of this world" is a natural extrapolation.

It's only a valid extrapolation if you have some actual evidence to demonstrate that something is not of this world. Meteorites* are 'not of this world'; but we can collect them, hold them in our hands and scrutinise them to see whether the hypothesis that they are 'not of this world' holds any water.

The same cannot be said of UFOs. Over half a century of testimony and there is still not one ATOM of tangible proof to suggest that this phenomena is 'not of this world'.

Crikey some of the artifacts dug up from some archeological sites have distinct shape to modern aircraft... but these are thousands of years old.

so, go figure

Von Daniken alert!!!! All hands on deck!!! "Put down that book and never open it again!"

Countdown to Face on Mars!

:-P

Oh, and "bending space"... faster than light travel

:confused:


* long considered super-natural events.

[Oldschool61]

The same cannot be said of UFOs. Over half a century of testimony and there is still not one ATOM of tangible proof to suggest that this phenomena is 'not of this world'.



Von Daniken alert!!!! All hands on deck!!! "Put down that book and never open it again!"

Countdown to Face on Mars!

:-P



:confused:


* long considered super-natural events.

Actually you have photographic evidence as well as radar so its not completely a blind faith thing like religion. Your method of saying one individual saw swamp gas holds only when its one individual. What about mass sightings like the phoenix lights or the UFO's over Washington DC in 1952.

[Lixma]

Actually you have photographic evidence as well as radar so its not completely a blind faith thing like religion.

Yes we have photographs. Yes we have radar blips.

Great, but now you need to explain how you get from these photographs, blips and sightings to 'extra terrestrials'.

What about mass sightings like the phoenix lights or the UFO's over Washington DC in 1952.

What about them?

Watch where we go wrong here.....

Phoenix lights (unidentified lights in the sky) = Extra terrestrials.

UFOs over Washington (unidentified objects in sky) = Extra terrestrials.

See the yawning gap in the reasoning there? We've made a completely un-warranted leap from something being unidentified to being 'extra terrestrial'.

Before claiming something is extra terrestrial you need to point to evidence of it being extra terrestrial and not just difficult to explain.

[Oldschool61]

Yes we have photographs. Yes we have radar blips.

Great, but now you need to explain how you get from these photographs, blips and sightings to 'extra terrestrials'.



What about them?

Watch where we go wrong here.....

Phoenix lights (unidentified lights in the sky) = Extra terrestrials.

UFOs over Washington (unidentified objects in sky) = Extra terrestrials.

See the yawning gap in the reasoning there? We've made a completely un-warranted leap from something being unidentified to being 'extra terrestrial'.

Before claiming something is extra terrestrial you need to point to evidence of it being extra terrestrial and not just difficult to explain.

Its called process of elimination.

Is it a plane? No

Is it a bird? No

Does it look like anything man made? No

What else could it be?? Flying fish?
Do flying fish fly faster than our best fighter planes?
Do they have the ability to do manuevers that no know earth bound craft can perform??

try a process of elimination UFO doesnt mean ET but it caould well be. Do you really think we are alone in the universe?? There could be civilizations a million years more advanced then us. Look how far our primative species has progressed in the last 150 years. We have gone from horse and buggy to traveling into outer space in 150 years. what do you think we will be able to do in 100,000 years or a million years?

[Lixma]

Its called process of elimination.

Is it a plane? No

Is it a bird? No

Does it look like anything man made? No

What else could it be??

"We don't know" is the answer. But we could hypothesize....

Flying fish?
Do flying fish fly faster than our best fighter planes?


No they don't. So we can eliminate flying fish. Do you know why we can eliminate flying fish from our investigation? It's because we are familiar with flying fish; their characteristics and capabilities, that we can safely conclude that UFOs are unlikely to be flying fish.

Do they have the ability to do manuevers that no know earth bound craft can perform??

One question....Do Alien space ships have the ability to do these things? If so, please tell me how do you know this? Where did this information come from? How do you, or anyone, know what an Alien space ship is (or is not) capable of?

If you want to use a process of elimination then at the very least you need to have a basic understanding of the things you are offering up as candidates. We can eliminate flying fish because we have knowledge of them. But we cannot ever eliminate ETs from our inquiry because we don't know a single fact about them.

There could be civilizations a million years more advanced then us. Look how far our primative species has progressed in the last 150 years. We have gone from horse and buggy to traveling into outer space in 150 years. what do you think we will be able to do in 100,000 years or a million years?

Yes, yes and yes to all these things!

But the mere possibility does not constitute evidence. It's possible i'm talking to you from the middle of an asteroid, smoking cancer-free Marlboros while playing the harp....all this is possible. But it does not contstitute evidence that I am in fact doing all those things.

[Oldschool61]

"
But we cannot ever eliminate ETs from our inquiry because we don't know a single fact about them.




.

Point I was trying to make almost. IF you rule out all other know earthly possibilities and all your left with is ET than what does that possibly mean??

[ruggbutt]

I have video of aliens and their space craft. The shadow government told me if I ever released them they'd "disappear" me.

[Lixma]

I have video of aliens and their space craft. The shadow government told me if I ever released them they'd "disappear" me.

Let me see.....yes, according to our records you are about due for a probing. We also offer 2 hours of missing time which can be taken at your discretion; perhaps during a dull business meeting. If we need to core out your anus we will of course arrange some rudimentary after-care but as we're fully booked up with cattle for the time being I wouldn't start worrying just yet.

[CharveL]

Let me see.....yes, according to our records you are about due for a probing. We also offer 2 hours of missing time which can be taken at your discretion; perhaps during a dull business meeting. If we need to core out your anus we will of course arrange some rudimentary after-care but as we're fully booked up with cattle for the time being I wouldn't start worrying just yet.

Please refer to the addendum which also recommends bringing a shaving kit for this one's probing. You don't want to get held up for the "Black Helicopter Stealth Techniques" workshop.

[Skoshi Tiger]

You do realize that the push for universal bowl cancer testing is just an alien plot thought up because their probing teams have been photographed too many times.

Just face it, your average doctor is highly intelligent (in the top 1% of University entrants), you study for 5 years, spend two years in your internship, Another 5 specializing, only to poke things up other peoples bums? Frankly I find it easier to believe in Aliens!



(Hope any doctors present have senses of humor!)

[Wolf_Rider]

It's only a valid extrapolation if you have some actual evidence to demonstrate that something is not of this world. Meteorites* are 'not of this world'; but we can collect them, hold them in our hands and scrutinise them to see whether the hypothesis that they are 'not of this world' holds any water.


well, you have to go back to your previous points of -




How to explain this? Well there are very many possible natural explanations for what happened. Tiredness, anxiety, vertigo, canopy reflections, hallucinations, birds, atmospheric effects, oxygen starvation, other aircraft.

But let us imagine that none of these explanations hold water, and we find that we simply do not have any explanation at all for what Bob saw. Our conclusion is therefore : "We don't know". Not "Aliens"




not holding water and to use the "logic" that everybody else is fond using, what does that leave? remember... if you have ruled out known possibilities and are left with an unknown; any unknown possibility can't be ruled out

[Lixma]

remember... if you have ruled out known possibilities and are left with an unknown; any unknown possibility can't be ruled out
Sorry, can you elaborate or rephrase that, WR? I'm not sure what you mean.

[Lixma]

Couldn't resist this one.

Here's an enterprising chap who's tired of UFOs not being taken seriously so he's calling in the big guns....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l4Az1wn024&feature=related

And he's pretty talented himself!

Prophet Yahweh has been blessed to resurrect the lost, ancient art of summoning UFOs and actual spaceships on command.

"Hold on, let me put it on standby, brother..." :-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXuEwOckwsA&feature=related

:cool:

[Wolf_Rider]

Sorry, can you elaborate or rephrase that, WR? I'm not sure what you mean.



Could you be a bit clearer? I don't follow what you're asking

[CharveL]

well, you have to go back to your previous points of -




not holding water and to use the "logic" that everybody else is fond using, what does that leave? remember... if you have ruled out known possibilities and are left with an unknown; any unknown possibility can't be ruled out

Ok, sure but why not flying demons instead of aliens that break the most fundamental law of the universe to get here? Or maybe interdimensional ghost souls frantically burning ectoplasm in their search for heaven?

[Cataplasma]

A new collection of original documents about ufos :cool:

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos

[Wolf_Rider]

if that's what you think, Charvel... that's fine ;-)

[Oldschool61]

Ok, sure but why not flying demons instead of aliens that break the most fundamental law of the universe to get here? Or maybe interdimensional ghost souls frantically burning ectoplasm in their search for heaven?

Because demons and goasts arent real

[Wolf_Rider]

depends on in what context though, Oldschool

[Oldschool61]

depends on in what context though, Oldschool

yeah in sci fi movies they are real but not in real life.

[Wolf_Rider]

mmm dunno Oldschool... haunted by the ghosts of past memories, perhaps?

[CharveL]

Because demons and goasts arent real

But there are thousands of credible eye witnesses that swear they saw them. People who would know the difference between corporeal matter and not. And sightings didn't just magically start around 50 years ago.

How are they any less real or any different than aliens from outer space?

Is it the illusion of technological underpinnings that make sky phenomenon more appealing in the modern age than ghosts?

[Oldschool61]

But there are thousands of credible eye witnesses that swear they saw them. People who would know the difference between corporeal matter and not. And sightings didn't just magically start around 50 years ago.

How are they any less real or any different than aliens from outer space?

Is it the illusion of technological underpinnings that make sky phenomenon more appealing in the modern age than ghosts?

show the photographic evidence the mass sightings the scientific evidence.

Its called hallucinations.

Thats the same as saying there is an all powerful space god. where is proof

[CharveL]

show the photographic evidence the mass sightings the scientific evidence.

Its called hallucinations.

Thats the same as saying there is an all powerful space god. where is proof

Sure, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. ;)

[Wolf_Rider]

Q exists :grin:

[Oldschool61]

Sure, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. ;)

There is tons of photographic evidence for UFO's as well as radar reports.

OK your turn show me pictures of ghosts and the all powerful OZ

[CharveL]

There is tons of photographic evidence for UFO's as well as radar reports.

OK your turn show me pictures of ghosts and the all powerful OZ

LOL!

Show me just one please. Out of the "tons" just pic one clear and unambiguous picture of an alien spacecraft.

I must admit, you have as much faith in your alien religion as I've ever seen in a religious person. It works out well though because faith doesn't require evidence, proof, or logic just a choice to believe.

[Oldschool61]

LOL!

Show me just one please. Out of the "tons" just pic one clear and unambiguous picture of an alien spacecraft.

I must admit, you have as much faith in your alien religion as I've ever seen in a religious person. It works out well though because faith doesn't require evidence, proof, or logic just a choice to believe.

Its your turn to show your scientific proof.

I never said that I thought UFO's were 100% real I have been saying that its more likely than not.

Still waiting on your proof of the all powerful OZ

[Oldschool61]

Its your turn to show your scientific proof.

I never said that I thought UFO's were 100% real I have been saying that its more likely than not.

Still waiting on your proof of the all powerful OZ

Still waiting Charvel.....

[ATAG_Dutch]

Still waiting Charvel.....

Think he's waiting for the evidence of the alien occupied extra terrestrial spacecraft mate.;)

[CharveL]

I'm looking forward mostly to the radar evidence, I mean, you can't fool that!

But the Proof Pictures with a side order of Credible Witness™ should make for some yummy bbq so I can't decide what to anticipate more.

[Oldschool61]

I'm looking forward mostly to the radar evidence, I mean, you can't fool that!

But the Proof Pictures with a side order of Credible Witness™ should make for some yummy bbq so I can't decide what to anticipate more.

I'm waiting for his evidence for his invisible friend you know the one they call jesus, that has less evidence than UFO's.