AI/FM behavior...er...erratic...???

[jamesdietz]

Not sure if this is the proper place to discuss..Look I really like this sim & I'm sure I will even more when I can get FPS up from the cellar...but has anyone addressed the behavior of the AI guys?Its just bizarre! I've seen Stukas chasing Spitfires, Sunderland ( other "Heavies ) doing slow rolls & maybe a loop or two( & not as one would suspect pulling their wings off...),formations of bombers doing maneuvers wing tip to wing tip like Starlings...other times break for the 4 corners of the compass....Dogfights that are a mess of missed opportunities.My own guys completely ignoring the enemy that is close by or simply leaving the field of battle without seemingly firing a shot...if I could control my ship & my shooting better ( higher FPS would help...) I could have a field day blasting 109s returning home oblivious that I am right behind them blasting away!!!It is so remimisent of the miserable AI behavior of Battle of Britain II released 5 or so years ago.Have the developers said anything about any of this?
Just to sooth my nerves I go back to Il-2 for absolutely wonderful AI guys...am I just spoiled or what?

[Blackdog_kt]

According to one of the previous development updates they have placed a dedicated AI guy in the team, he's the one currently redoing the radio commands menu. AI improvements will be his next project once all the radio commands are working.

As for bombers exhibiting fighter-like behaviour, if you are flying missions from the QMB it depends on the group they belong to. If the stock mission pits you against Spitfires and you change them to Sunderlands, they keep the AI properties of the original mission (seems like the QMB is a "change some parameters of the stock mission" type of overlay and only the type of aircraft changes, but the rest of the group's properties don't) and that's why they react crazy.

On the other hand, some of the RAF bombers and even heavies (Sunderland included, if you've read that well known combat report of the fight between a Sunderland and a flight of Ju88s) were not too shabby in terms of maneuverability and there were standardized evasive maneuvers for the pilots to follow that don't exactly correspond to the long-standing simmer's convention of "bombers always fly straight and level".

The most "famous" one was the so called corkscrew which, if i'm not mistaken is like spiral diving the bomber :eek:

This was a direct consequence of the different doctrine employed by RAF bomber command, where most of the time the bombers would fly at night and thus not in formation (to minimize risk of collisions), so they had to rely on maneuvering to throw off attackers because they lacked the formation's mutually protective gunner coverage. This would be the same for solo operating aircraft like long range flying boats patrolling for U-boats and so on.

[TomcatViP]

The Corkscrew maneuver was studied by the bomber command (BC)after extensive search for an evasive move against fighters closing in 6;

The idea was to let the enemy fighter hanging sufficiently in the bomber 6 the time the tail gunner with his powerful gun turret (4x0.303 as standardized on BC bombers) shot him down without sustaining heavy returning fire.

It consisted simply of the combinaison of a tail slide plus alternative push over and pull up.
The idea of the slide was to complicated the firing solution for the enemy fighter. The slight dive was to accelerate faster than what the light enemy airplane cld do giving enough time for the gunner (decreasing the speed dif = building time).
As bombers were to keep heading and alt for respectively navigation and deconflicting flight path purpose, it was recommended to alternate the slide on one side and then on the other and the push over was to be immediatly followed by a slight pull up. Hence the bomber could fight an opponent and stay on heading and flight plan;

View from behind the bomber trajectory would describe a spiral around its velocity vector hence the name corkscrew.

It seems simple but it worked and I can tell you that it still does work in a simulator. I hve practiced it for years with relative success.

It works fairly well when two manned bomber flying side by side start to corkscrew in opposite direction : the leader slide above and the wingman dive and slide on the opposite wing of his leader; And so on;

I recommend it if you fly a pair of Stuka with that single machine gun needing more time to score some damage.

You might even remember hving a hard time with Tom and me doing so in IL2 against you in your spit ;)

I know that you might hve a hard time believing it but this maneuver was enough to put some heavy plane out of their flying envelope. For example on twin rudder bomber if the rudder was over dimensionned regarding the fixed vertical surface, the pertubed airflow in the slide (washout with an oblique angle from the main plane axis) was strong enough to prevent the rudder to hve sufficient force to push the plane back on its velocity vector. It was said that quite a lot of bombers were lost that way (maybe hundreds but not thousands). if you add the fairly low number of flying hours from new pilots in the op type you understand that the corkscrew could prove hard to handle for young pilots as for young fighters pilots fighting to keep their target steady behind their visor.

~S

[Al Schlageter]

A tail slide in a heavy bomber. hahahahahahahaha

[Blackdog_kt]

A tail slide in a heavy bomber. hahahahahahahaha

I think he means a side-slip/skid with a bit of vertical component thrown in, not the modern day aerobatic tail-slide maneuver where a high powered stunt plane pulls vertical, applies elevator as it stalls and noses over while moving backwards.



The Corkscrew maneuver was studied by the bomber command (BC)after extensive search for an evasive move against fighters closing in 6;

The idea was to let the enemy fighter hanging sufficiently in the bomber 6 the time the tail gunner with his powerful gun turret (4x0.303 as standardized on BC bombers) shot him down without sustaining heavy returning fire.

It consisted simply of the combinaison of a tail slide plus alternative push over and pull up.
The idea of the slide was to complicated the firing solution for the enemy fighter. The slight dive was to accelerate faster than what the light enemy airplane cld do giving enough time for the gunner (decreasing the speed dif = building time).
As bombers were to keep heading and alt for respectively navigation and deconflicting flight path purpose, it was recommended to alternate the slide on one side and then on the other and the push over was to be immediatly followed by a slight pull up. Hence the bomber could fight an opponent and stay on heading and flight plan;

View from behind the bomber trajectory would describe a spiral around its velocity vector hence the name corkscrew.

It seems simple but it worked and I can tell you that it still does work in a simulator. I hve practiced it for years with relative success.

It works fairly well when two manned bomber flying side by side start to corkscrew in opposite direction : the leader slide above and the wingman dive and slide on the opposite wing of his leader; And so on;

I recommend it if you fly a pair of Stuka with that single machine gun needing more time to score some damage.

You might even remember hving a hard time with Tom and me doing so in IL2 against you in your spit ;)

I know that you might hve a hard time believing it but this maneuver was enough to put some heavy plane out of their flying envelope. For example on twin rudder bomber if the rudder was over dimensionned regarding the fixed vertical surface, the pertubed airflow in the slide (washout with an oblique angle from the main plane axis) was strong enough to prevent the rudder to hve sufficient force to push the plane back on its velocity vector. It was said that quite a lot of bombers were lost that way (maybe hundreds but not thousands). if you add the fairly low number of flying hours from new pilots in the op type you understand that the corkscrew could prove hard to handle for young pilots as for young fighters pilots fighting to keep their target steady behind their visor.

~S

Wow, thanks for the detailed explanation ;)

What you describe is exactly what many of the AI controlled bombers in IL2 used to do when i attacked them and pressed my attack to point blank range: they would just pull up and kick full rudder to one side and by the time i had chopped throttle or adjusted my aim the rest of the formation would be peppering me with a hail of gunfire. :grin:

[TomcatViP]

Yes of course not a tail slide. Thx BlkDg for the rectification.

[jamesdietz]

Corkscrewing was a very effective mid to late war R.A.F. tactic to that Lancaster & Halifax Bombers ( with plenty of power,)throw off the pursuit & aim of German nightfighters,but its doubtful whether it was used by German bombers this early in the war ,exception perhaps Stukas.Day bombers real salvation lay in holding tight formations & trying to surround their area with defensive fire.When British bombers launched day raids in the early part of the war,1939-1941) their losses were signifiganr because they were sent out on small groups & generally didn't have tight formation control- they got mauled by German day fighters.American formations of B-17s really tightened things up by early1943.I briefly flew a B-25 & you have to believe me , even empty it handled like a garbage truck...it loved flying straight & level & objected to being thrown about,nevermind a roll or a loop.
Behavior here( except when someone like me changes bombers for fighters in mission planning...) is still over the top in most areas as mentioned above.I'm delighted someone will be having a second look.I'm absolutely sold on the sim but there are so many areas to tweal it...
(BTW- The bombers seem to be progammed to mimic the Il-2 aircraft manuevers found in Il-2...very similar.Before Mods the behavior in Il-2 aircraft was very very predictable.

[White Owl]

I've spent too many hours trying to figure out how to get the desired behavior out of the AI, and don't think I'm any closer than when I started.

For a time, I thought the FM-defying impossible roll rates were a result of the tactics skill, but recent experimentation has showed the ninja rolling gets stuck to a particular AI pilot and will not change no matter what you do with the skill settings. One Hurricane out of a flight of six in this mission is a ninja roller. If I change all the skill settings to the lowest notch, he will become blind, cowardly, and spray all his bullets 20 yards away from the faintest hope of hitting anything... but he remains a crazy wing-wagging corkscrewing ninja roller.

Here's something crazy. If I save the mission under a different name, a different Hurricane within the same flight of six becomes a ninja roller!

For now I'm giving up on trying to figure that out. I'll just have to be content with proving the crazy roll rates are not tied to AI skill settings. Maybe one of you will read this and be spared the same headache, so that'll be good, I guess.

Now I want to know what causes entire flights of AI fighter to fly right past each other within spitting distance, and not engage. I've tried "free hunt", I've tried "engage fighters", "escort", "cover"... but they all just keep cruising. I'm trying to make a basic airfield attack mission, and my British defenders takeoff okay but simply refuse to engage.

[TheGrunch]

It's nothing complicated, simply that the AI have instantaneous control response. They don't have any kind of control surface inertia or gradual deflection of control surfaces or anything like that, they simply snap to the desired control deflection immediately, same as in Il-2. It gives them an instantanous roll rate like an F-16.

[Phazon]

It's nothing complicated, simply that the AI have instantaneous control response. They don't have any kind of control surface inertia or gradual deflection of control surfaces or anything like that, they simply snap to the desired control deflection immediately, same as in Il-2. It gives them an instantanous roll rate like an F-16.

Yup this. They don't fly as if they are using the joystick but more as if they are using a keyboard.

Anyone can replicate this behaviour by pressing on the arrow keys on the keyboard and see how you can make the ailerons or elevators instantly deflect to their maxium range without travel time.

[Al Schlageter]

TomcatViP

Corkscrew maneuver

How to:

1. The pilot (originally cruising at 200-225 mph) opens his throttle and banks at 45 degrees to make a diving turn to port (because the enemy aircraft is on the port reverse the maneuver if enemy is on starboard.); descending through 1,000 ft in six seconds, the bomber reaches a speed of nearly 300 mph. After the 1,000 ft descent, the pilot pulls the aircraft into a climb, still turning to port.

3. He reverse the turn, halfway through the climb which has caused his speed to fall sharply, possibly forcing the attacking night fighter to overshoot.

4. Regaining his original altitude, with speed down to 185 mph and still in the starboard turn, the pilot pushes the aircraft down into another dive.

5. Picking up speed in the dive, he descends through 500 ft before reversing the direction of the turn.

6. If the fighter is still on his tail, he stand by to repeat the maneuver. The physical effort required by the pilot has been compared with that of an oarsman pulling hard in a boat race.

http://www.429sqn.ca/

[TomcatViP]

45 deg of bank for a pull up .. That's for sure a lot of G for a bomber (and strains for the pilot)... At night it would hve been easy to be disoriented with the speed dangerously high.

Seems you've got a variant here. Nice to hve a related pic.

But is that 100lb or not ? That is the question :rolleyes:

~S!

[badfinger]

I remember reading about one of the ace German night fighter pilots shooting down a bomber while flying in formation while the bomber was doing the corkscrew. He was underneath the bomber and shot him down using the Jazz music cannon while they were both in a +90 degree bank. So, he was shooting down!

binky9

[Biggs [CV]]

Seems like the 109 and 110 AI is a bit off. When I get behind them they roll and dive like madmen. They do this at a rate that no real pilot could regain control of their aircraft.