German Flak Organization

[HenFre]

Organisation of a german 8,8 cm Flak Battery:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PPd1yGk5BtQ/ThGtPvK6fWI/AAAAAAAAAXA/Pd5KqZt6r28/s1280/8%25252C8%252520cm%252520FlakBatterie_001.jpg

Some more info:

Technisches Handbuch
http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/tme9369agerman88mmgun.pdf

Aufstellung der Batterie
http://www.luftschutz-bunker.de/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=52

Gliederung Heeres Flakbatterie 8,8 cm
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn17111nov43.htm

Flakschutz Raum Bremen (mit Aufbau der Batterie)
http://www.relikte.com/brm_flak/index.htm

Could we get a thread going with relevant organisations of different units from both sides of the conflict?

Regards

Henrik

[SNAFU]

Unfortunately I cannot contribute here, but I say Thank you, very helpful indeed. I am always looking for information like these. :)

[HenFre]

@SNAFU: No problem :) And here is another one:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JT9T1i46Foo/ThYq4nzXDgI/AAAAAAAAAXs/U-sn72iN-jQ/s1280/2%252520cm%252520Flakbatterie_002.jpg

Some more info:

Gliederung 2 cm Flakbatterie:
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn2201lw1aug40.html

Regards

Henrik

[JG26_EZ]

Searching for how they might set up flak positions, I DID come across this, which I found interesting.. (but not what I'm looking for)

Here's a quote, and a link to the page I retrieved the pic from.
"Contrary to what may be a popular belief, heavy, long-range anti-aircraft guns could not track moving aerial targets on their own. The German practice was to have four guns controlled by an optical device called Kommandogerät, or control device. In this case, the Kommandogerät 40 combined a 4m Em (R) 40 rangefinder with an electro-mechanical ballistic computing device. This unit required an outside power source, so a Motorgenerator was connected to a Betriebßchaltkasten, mounted on top of a Sammlergestell; a power transmission line ran from this unit to the KDO40. A data transmission line, the Übertragungsleitung 37, ran from the KDO40 to a Verteilerkasten, which in turn, sent hard-wired data to the four guns in a typical FlaK-Batterie. This is why a heavy FlaK gun had cable reels fitted to its transport limber units."

-http://www.network54.com/Forum/477322/message/1328485138/Kit,+Bronco+CB35103,+German+Telemeter+KDO+Mod.40+w-Sd.Ah.52
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/8_8_cm_flak_411.jpg

______________________


So, while we wait for some feedback.. Does this look somewhat believable?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00011.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00015.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00016.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/JG26_EZ/COD/2012-02-21_00009.jpg

[Osprey]

Fantastic mission building! I like a good piece of eye-candy.

Can you wrap this up into an object which we can deploy into maps?

Anything similar for the Allies?

[5./JG27.Farber]

Yes, FLAK is in the new book I got.

Let me see if I can get it scanned soon.

[6S.Manu]

Interesting!

I was searching for this since we were creating a mission on Invasion 44 with an allied attack against flak trenches.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Some quick sketches for you.


Pre WW2 and 39/40

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/3940.jpg


1941 ~ 1942

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/end1941.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/end1941two.jpg



I need to read the whole article in full but thats the jist. The number of guns goes up during the war for each Batterie. Just pulled it out of the Luftwaffe handbook.

Basically you got it right, four in a square, command in the centre, with the option to run the predictor right out to one side.

[6S.Manu]

Thks Farber! Very Usefull!

[5./JG27.Farber]

Later in the war when it goes to 7 guns per Batterie the seventh goes in the middle. When an eigth is added they formed a ring.

O and each batterie had two 2cm AA... It doesn't show where they go though :(
Perhaps this is dependent on terrain.

[JG26_EZ]

Precisely what I was looking for Farber.. Thanks Alot!

I found the link below, after your post.. Which means I may have posted this in the wrong section.. But with a title like "organization" (way back on the 13th page of the FMB section), it's not so easy to spot :). Maybe we can end up getting this merged with the thread/link below.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=24314

The thread is quite informative as to which, and how many units per battery, but doesn't have the info that's been added here.

All of this is helping me (and I'm sure others) out a bunch.
Thanks again all.

PS. Osprey.. Thanks. I'll post the two batteries I have in one object file that I did, but note that I had to lower certain 88's and ammunition eye candy, differently because they were on a bit of a hill. Not sure how well that will work elsewhere, but you can give it a shot. http://www.mediafire.com/?p1214ug47j4jsoh Perhaps you can line it up with the spot just next to Dieppe that I had it at heh. And no allied clusters of objects for you yet.. patience ;)

[5./JG27.Farber]

Np, my experience with the trenches and object height is that the latter does not work and the former is somewhat dependant on terrain features and which sections are connected to what - even on a flat. They look fine in the editor but try them in multiplayer first.

Happy to help! :-P

S!

[csThor]

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/3940.jpg

It was standard to put the rangefinder (which was part of the Kommandogerät 36 or 40 predictor) a little aside the battery to prevent incorrect measurements due to the vibration induced by four heavy guns shooting.
In game we only have the Em4mR40 Entfernungsmesser and the auxiliary Kommandohilfsgerät 35 (both just eyecandy) while in reality the latter would only take action if the Kommandogerät 36/40 was not working while the range finder (as said above) was part of the Kommandogerät 36/40.

BTW until 1942 only the Luftwaffe operated the 88mm Flak guns while the Army had to make do with light or medium AAA guns such as the 20mm Flak 30 / Flak 38 or the 37mm Flak 36.

[csThor]

Attached to this post is a small document on the composition of german artillery units and their equipment I had been working on during my christmas vacation. It's not as fleshed out as I wanted, but real life interference has stopped work on it.

I hope that helps a bit. :)

[HenFre]

JG26_EZ Nice find Farber. The only things that I disagree with is that the commandpost II is in the middle of the firing position and not commmandpost I. Commandpost I is located a few hundred meters outside the firing position. Below is a goggle translation of the most important information from the following link:

http://www.relikte.com/brm_flak/index.htm

"The schematic structure of a heavy anti-aircraft battery 8.8 cm in the early days of the war:

Command Post I: It is located a few hundred meters offset from the firing position and includes the predictor (KdoGer 36) with the Meßtrupp I, the battery commander and the Meßoffizier.
Command Post II: It is the Meßtrupp II and commanded auxiliary device (KdoHilfsGer 35) in the middle of the firing position and takes on the fire line if Command Post I fails.
Firing position: It forms the basic shape of a square. The average distance of the Command Post II to the individual guns is 70 to 80 m.
Radio station: The 100-W radio station is laterally offset from the firing position. It turned to flight reporting frequency and listen to the air situation reports to provide a warning when enemy planes approached."

Also note the distance between the guns and Command Post II is 70 to 80 meters and the 2 cm flak is placed between the firing position and the Command Post I.

[csThor]

Don't take that too literally as it is based upon the static batteries of the Reich Defense. Closer to the front, especially in fluid situations which are so dominant in a war of movement, the battery would be set up with just the basics. That means the four guns, the generator and the Kommandogerät.

[HenFre]

csThor: Did not know that Thor, thanks. But dont you think that the frontline in BOB is somewhat fixed and therefore the before mentioned lineup apply?

[JG26_EZ]

lol great!

I spend an hour or two in the FMB building a command station for my 3 groups of 6 AA guns, and come back to find that my measurements are all incorrect? hehe AAhhh the joys of building missions on the fly.

Thanks for the info gentlemen.

[csThor]

I was talking in the general sense since the next installment will feature a non-static frontline setting. ;)

EDIT: It is very likely that the 20mm guns were removed from batteries stationed in Germany. I have not yet managed to find a comprehensive overview over the Luftwaffe Flak Regiments (those that exclusively operated the 88m guns until 1942) since their composition was never the same across the whole board.

[5./JG27.Farber]

JG26_EZ Nice find Farber. The only things that I disagree with is that the commandpost II is in the middle of the firing position and not commmandpost I.

Merely a case or terminology from 2 different Sources...


As for the distances I am only quoting Dr Alfred Price's book - 1939-1945 Luftwaffe Handbook. I converted them from yards. I am just repeating what they said.

I think another thing to remember is that FLAK Batterien as with all things both British and German are not forced to be at full complement/strength... The British had left a large propotion of the weapons in Dunkirk and the Germans were still racing to expand across the board.

[Jugdriver]

So, while we wait for some feedback.. Does this look somewhat believable?



Looks Dangerous!

JD
AKA_MattE

[Ataros]

More templates can be found at

airwarfare.com
http://airwarfare.com/sow/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=53&view=viewcategory&catid=59
http://airwarfare.com/sow/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=53&view=viewcategory&catid=57

sukhoi.ru
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=73317&p=1796363&viewfull=1#post1796363

One of authors http://jimeez.weebly.com/index.html

[Osprey]

Nice work guys. I've downloaded the battery EZ, look forward to placing them :)

[Ataros]

sukhoi collection was updated with some UK templates http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sukhoi.ru%2Fforum%2Fshowthread. php%3Ft%3D73317%26p%3D1821612%23post1821612

[Ataros]

Does anyone have historical data on British and French AAA batteries?

[bolox]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Defence-UK/UK-DefenseOfUK-IX.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Defence-UK/UK-DefenseOfUK-XIX.html

is a start for GB AA

[tools4fools]

Some aerial shots of Flak batteries:
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/schweinfurt3.htm

Looks like the distance between the guns is twice the size of a gun pit.
++++

[schilla22]

HenFre, those are diagrams are based on units for 1943 correct?

I found some documents tonight for Motorized Flak Battalions via May 1940. Only gives figures for Light AA Companies tho. Will post the information when i get a chance.

[HenFre]

@schilla22: The 8,8 cm Flakbatterie is from 1943 and based on the way the army has organised the unit. Here is a link:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn17111nov43.htm

There should not be a significant difference between the units of 1943 and 1940 from what I have been able to find on the internet.

The 2 cm Flakbatterie is based on the Luftwaffes own organisation and this is how it looked in august 1940. Here is another link:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn2201lw1aug40.html

Looking forward to seeing the info you have :)

[schilla22]

I found a web site tons of TO&Es. However its like finding a needle in a hay stack (over 8 hours and only up to about 1942). Still haven't located much information on Flak Regiments, or Heavy Flak Battalions etc. So cannot give any information on 8,8 cm Flak units.

Your info is spot on via that site for Gliederung according to a recently found Equipment list for that specific unit. Also found a later war list for 1944.

I found a PDF "Organization of the Motorized Flak Battalions
10 May 1940" (google search that and you should find it, if not can prob email or PM it)

There are 2 different types of Battalions listed. The first is almost the same as Gliederung. Except that a few misc vehicles are missing or added. But there are 3 Platoons of 4 guns, instead of 4 with 3 guns.

This is for the following Flak Battalions: 31st /46th /47/48/52/55/59/66

The 2nd Example is roughly 3 times larger. In this Battalion there are 3-4 Companies of 3 Platoons, each with 4 guns.

This template applies to 601st through 606th Flak Battalions.

You have me extremely interested in this subject matter. And thinking about doing a few diagrams myself similar to yours for the FMB community if you don't mind. Currently looking into motorized and armor divisions.

[HenFre]

@schilla22: The Flak unit described in the PDF has the Flak on Halftracks like this:

http://albumwar2.com/images/stories/25.02.2012/30%20flak%20tractor%20sd.kfz.%2010.4.jpg

So it is a motorised unit, which I suppose are used to support the panzerbattalions.

The unit that I have in my post is a towed Flak like this:

http://ww2db.com/images/weapon_flak38_16.jpg

But maybe the organisation of the 2 cm Flak batterie was changed in august of 1940, hence the new KSTN?? Could be that the change was in the number of platoons and the number of guns in each platoon.

Where have you found tons of KSTN? Same site as I am referring to?

Looking forward to seeing your diagrams and what you dig up :)

[schilla22]

Ok, after probably a solid 16+ hours of looking through the George Nafziger collection of Orders of Battle, via U.S. Army Combined Arms Research Library, I just now found a website that you can bulk download all of the PDFs.

http://www.alternatewars.com/CARL/Nafgizer_CARL.htm

And there's an index for German Authorized Strengths (Regiments, Battalions, Companies, Platoons etc), from 1941-1945, for a huge variety of unit types.

Here is an Index Page from a separate website:
http://home.fuse.net/nafziger/TOE.HTM

As you can see, there are also thousands of other files for other Countries, of which I have yet to even look through. (next on my list is Great Britain)

The Coding works as follows:
944GQAG
944 = Year of the Document, not always 100% accurate but close. This one representing 1944
G = Country of Origin. This one being Germany. Others like F = France, B = Britain etc.
QAG = Unknown, have yet to really decipher these.

This File 944GQAG specifically represents: German Army Authorized Strength - Staff, Horse Drawn 20mm Flak Battalion - 1 November 1944.

There are at least 2 files in the 938-940 years for Germany concerning Flak Authorized Strength. One of them is 940GXMG However I cannot recall the other one at this moment.


From what I can tell, up until 1944, all Flak Battalions were Motorized, unless if they were Garrison Units (fixed emplacements around strategic targets or cities) 943GQDR and 943GQDS. Of which it looks that these units have less # of Vehicles than the others. I assume that they would borrow vehicles, or get vehicles from other units to transport to new positions.

Also I think the key to Flak units, is that they needed to be highly mobile to protect Key Assets, like what HenFre said, Panzer divisions etc.

Its not until 1944 and after, that you start seeing TO&Es of Flak units that are only partially Motorized, or Horse drawn. Here I'll assume that for obvious reasons of production, and air superiority by the Allies made Motor Transport almost non existent.

When you get to looking into Divisions and their Attachment Units, you'll see either just 1 Battalion attached, or Single or Multiple Companies/Batteries (2,3,or 4 guns). So basically These units when it comes to size, and vehicles in those units can be totally random and based on Individual Unit TO&E's. There isn't much of a level of standardization.

I hope to work on some Diagrams similar to HenFre's this weekend, and if I learn how to actual Scripts. But at the moment I'm totally Brain Fried :!:

[HenFre]

@schilla22: Thank you for the links schilla :grin: Lots of great information. Which units do you plan to make diagrams for? I will also be making some and it would be stupid to do the same ones ;)

I think the main difference between my 2 cm Flak unit and the ones mentioned in your links is, that yours are for the army and mine is for the Luftwaffe. Can you confirm that your KSTN's (TO&E's) are for the army?

[schilla22]

@ HenFre Right now I'm shuffling through these files to come to a proper determination of when the Army started creating their own Flak units. It was always to my assumption that the Army didnt start doing this till around 1942 when they started meeting more opposition on the Western Front from the Russian Air Force. And when stronger production started on the actual Mechanized Flak units, aka mounted Half Tracks.

The project I'm working on at the moment is an actual Map (via workable area of France and Britain in CLOD) of stationed Flak units in France in 1940 and early 1941. There is one File (can't remember coded number at the moment) of giving specific locations of Battalions in France and Belgium. Then using some books to determine the British Defense.

Some of the KSTN's are for the Luftwaffe, but finding them is difficult. I will make a choice later today as of which units I will Choose. Probably choose an Army 1940 motorized divisions / battalion / company strength later today.

[csThor]

Between Army and Luftwaffe flak units there's a considerable difference - also time-wise. The Army had own Flak units (almost exclusively motorized companies) as early as 1940 but none of them had anything larger than a 3,7cm Flak 18/36. Until 1942 only the Luftwaffe operated the 8,8cm Flak - only then the Army set up its own Flak battalions with the Achtacht (usually two platoons with 4 guns each and another two or three light/medium platoons).

[schilla22]

@csThor Do you have any information on those Army Flak units aka KSTN's / TO&E's?

@HenFre I've decided to start of with Motorized Infantry Divisions. But specifically with each individual section untill I reach the whole division strength. The Document I have covers 4 of the 8 Motorized Divisions in May 1940. I cannot remember the Code for the document, but its Title German Motorized Infantry Divisions - 10 May 1940.

@csThore and HenFre There are NO Flak Units listed in the May 1940 Document. There are 4 Divisions covered: 2nd, 13th, 20th, and 29th (mot) INF DIV. In document 941GHAI Title: Organization German 20th (mot) Infantry Division - 23 August 1941 You can find that there is 1 Flak Unit attached to the 20th (mot) Panzerjäger Battalion: 1st Btry/52nd Self Propelled Flak Battalion with 12 20mm guns.

Strangely enough this exact same unit its also attached to the 18th (mot) INF DIV in document 941GHAJ.... Typo ?

Document 942GLAK you'll see a vast increase in FLAK defense. Title: German 60th (mot) Infantry Division Field Organization 21 December 1942. It has the following Flak Organizations:
10th Btry/160th Artillery Regiment (2 20mm & 3 88mm guns)
12th Btry/160th Artillery Regiment (11 20mm guns)
11th Btry/160th Artillery Regiment (3 88mm & 3 20mm guns)

Strange that these units are listed as Artillery Regiments.......

Here are some link of German Half Tracks that I've found that were built with Mounted AA:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-6.asp
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-7.asp
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdKfz-251.asp
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/half-tracks/sdkfz-10.asp

[csThor]

That's because in 1942 an Army Flak Battalion was attached to most mobile divisions as 4th Battalion of the divisional Artillery Regiment. This Army Flak Battalion was made up of three batteries, first and second with a light platoon with three 20mm Flak and a heavy platoon with four 88mm Flak 18/36/37 while the third battery had twelve 20mm guns. In 1943, however, these battalions were moved away from the Artillery Regiment and subordinated to the divisional staff directly.

In 1941 the divisional anti-tank battalion of a mobile division had one integral Flak company with self-propelled guns of the SdKfz 10/4, SdKfz 10/5 and SdKfZ 7/1 type (except 3rd, 19th and 20th Panzer Division - these had none) while 17th and 18th Panzer Divisions had to use pulled flak guns.
Some divisions even added a flak company to each motorized infantry / Panzergrenadier Battalion in late 1941, but this was by no means universal.

Source: Osprey Battle Orders - Panzer Divisions: The Eastern Front 1941 - 43

PS: The issue with the attached company from 52nd Self Propelled Flak Battalion is likely a typo. I guess it means one battery of this battalion was attached to the unit.

[schilla22]

Ok that makes more sense. I'm specifically researching Western Front 1940-1941 by the way. Since that's all we can really portray with CLOD right now.

Came across some new information.

I Flak Corps: Formed 1939. Assigned to Luftflotte 3, with units being assigned to Panzer Grouppe Kleist for Battle of France.
Contained the I Flak Brigade, and II Flak Brigade

II Flak Corps: Formed 1939. Assigned to Luftflotte 2. Assigned to support 4th Army (Kluge) and 6th Army (Reichenau).
Contained III Flak Brigade

IV Flak Brigade assigned to Munich defense 1940

VI Flak Brigade served in both Belgian and French Campaigns. Served around Paris. 1941 restationed to Darmstadt

VII Flak Brigade: Rear Echelon Defense during Battle for France

X Flak Brigade: Formed July 1940, defense of Dortmund

[Kongo-Otto]

I.Flakkorps (http://www.ww2.dk/ground/hq/iflak.htm)
II.Flakkorps (http://www.ww2.dk/ground/hq/iiflak.htm)
Flak-Brigade IV (http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/4flabrg.htm)
Flak-Brigade VI (http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/6flabrg.htm)
Flak-Brigade VII (http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/7flabrg.htm)

Need more info?
Go to http://www.ww2.dk/ then go to Ground units and then to Flak Units.

[schilla22]

I've been using that website also Kongo. Good site, just find it difficult at times to find the information that I'm looking for.

[HenFre]

Organisation of a German Army Light Flak Battery as of the 10. of may 1940:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qTViSks-Sog/T-DVweL3nmI/AAAAAAAAAok/OX7FrekcptU/s1382/Heeres+Leichte+Flakbatterie_002.jpg

Link to PDF containing the organisation chart:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9yyqXRAXbeUWWctSWUwVzVENzA

[Kongo-Otto]

I've been using that website also Kongo. Good site, just find it difficult at times to find the information that I'm looking for.

Well if i can help you by research feel me to send me an PM. ;)

[5./JG27.Farber]

Well if i can help you by research feel me to send me an PM. ;)

Where were you when I needed you months ago trawling for information!? :-P

[Kongo-Otto]

Where were you when I needed you months ago trawling for information!? :-P

Sorry but i think i missed that. *oops*