A question for all who love BoP and look forward to BoS

[MACADEMIC]

Hi all,

I've done some rather extensive flight model studies of Birds of Prey and of its sister product Wings of Prey recently.

The result in short was that the aircraft in BoP are all really overpowered in comparision to historical performance data, however have been artificially limited in their horizontal top speed performance (this has also been confirmed to me by the devs, although they said they had not done so intentionally). So, for example, a P-51 climbs and accelerates about twice as good as it should, however doesn't get anywhere near its historical top speed in horizontal flight.

In Wings of Prey, all flight models were initially underpowered, but have now been brought to historical specifications, meaning they are not as good in climb and acceleration, but have better top speeds in horizontal flight when compared to the Birds of Prey flight models.

This has a significant effect on gameplay. In BoP, the planes are really maneuverable and give you a lot of freedom moving through the dimensions. In WoP, you really have to be much more careful with your maneuvers and watch your speed and energy closely. Having altitude advantage plays a way bigger role here, it's very hard to beat an opponent who is above you.

So as it is at the moment, Wings of Prey gives you the more historically accurate flying experience but is quite a bit harder to fly, while Birds of Prey gives you more freedom of movement and (my personal opinion) more fun.

What would you like to see in the sequel Birds of Steel? Would you like the flight models to stay as they are in BoP, or become more authentic as they are in WoP? Or would you like to see an option for both?

Please vote and have your say here on the thread!

Thanks guys! :)

MAC

[olife]

Hi all,

I've done some rather extensive flight model studies of Birds of Prey and of its sister product Wings of Prey recently.

The result in short was that the aircraft in BoP are all really overpowered in comparision to historical performance data, however have been artificially limited in their horizontal top speed performance (this has also been confirmed to me by the devs, although they said they had not done so intentionally). So, for example, a P-51 climbs and accelerates about twice as good as it should, however doesn't get anywhere near its historical top speed in horizontal flight.

In Wings of Prey, all flight models were initially underpowered, but have now been brought to historical specifications, meaning they are not as good in climb and acceleration, but have better top speeds in horizontal flight when compared to the Birds of Prey flight models.

This has a significant effect on gameplay. In BoP, the planes are really maneuverable and give you a lot of freedom moving through the dimensions. In WoP, you really have to be much more careful with your maneuvers and watch your speed and energy closely. Having altitude advantage plays a way bigger role here, it's very hard to beat an opponent you is above you.

So as it is at the moment, Wings of Prey gives you the more historically accurate flying experience but is quite a bit harder to fly, while Birds of Prey gives you more freedom of movement and (my personal opinion) more fun.

What would you like to see in the sequel Birds of Steel? Would you like the flight models to stay as they are in BoP, or become more authentic as they are in WoP? Or would you like to see an option for both?

Please vote and have your say here on the thread!

Thanks guys! :)

MAC

hello teacher mac!

nice thread!

yes would like to be nice and more realistic to have planes more authentics.
i would add too a "real teambattle hardcore mode"
...like in real...one life,with the authentics technicals performances,possibility to land to load ammo ,more big distance between airfields and the battlefield to have the possibility to fly in formation and do tactics before enter in the battle...cockpit view only for this mode.

[winny]

Authenticity is paramount. Otherwise why have different planes?

As real as they can, please.

[Hicks-81]

I prefer as historically accurate as possible, but I think they have to offer both options. Must be given the opportunity to enjoy equally to those who do not control the flight simulator. Not everyone has such patience to learn to fly

[olife]

when i say "one life mode",i think it would give to the game a touch of authentic action,personnaly ,even if birds of prey stay the best planes game of console,i find that ,in teambattle, the fact to have "many lifes" favour too much the "personnal counter of kills"instead of the battle tactics as for exemple fly in couple and cover his wingman,(i'm the first to fall in it...as a lot of us i think),one time we tried with mac and many others sim guys,the "one life mode",it was better ,cause everybody take care to fly without too much risks and try to help everybody cause too much guys of your team killed and u become alone against many others oppoments...it is the death and the deafeat for sure ,like in real.
of course the "real hardcore sim team battle" would be a 4th game mode with arcade ,realistic and sim...and not the only mode of the game.

[Gilly]

Authenticity is paramount. Otherwise why have different planes?

As real as they can, please.

+1 agree wholeheartedly

[Shadowcorp]

Historical accuracy is what i want but i would still want the three game modes arcade, realistic and sim. arcade being the most the most unrealistic with rocket powered bi planes etc doesn't bother me, but realistic and sim should definately perform closer to the real thing

[Zatoichi_Sanjuro]

Why exclude people who love flying/combat games but prefer arcade mode?

It's easy to implement and you don't lose more than half of your audience. I don't think I'm wrong in saying far more people play Arcade/Realistic mode in BoP than Sim mode. And what I like most about BoP is it's stepping stone nature in getting people interested in sim games.

More sales = more Gaijin games. :!:

[JRHOODY1]

as real as they can get it please with sim, arcade, realistic, i think what you said olife about hardcore would be fun?:-):-)

[olife]

Why exclude people who love flying/combat games but prefer arcade mode?

It's easy to implement and you don't lose more than half of your audience. I don't think I'm wrong in saying far more people play Arcade/Realistic mode in BoP than Sim mode. And what I like most about BoP is it's stepping stone nature in getting people interested in sim games.

More sales = more Gaijin games. :!:

yes agree with u,i think that the 3 modes are good and have their own difficulties,just everybody play in mode he/they like.and i don't forget i start to play bop in arcade mode,follow in realistic and now in sim.i like play realistic too now,a lot of fun too even if sim stay my favorite mode.

[olife]

as real as they can get it please with sim, arcade, realistic, i think what you said olife about hardcore would be fun?:-):-)

thx my friend ,yes i think,and i think about a games in "hardcore tb mode" in bop,i prepare it(rules and goals)and will post it in a new thread but i need for a time to prepare it.

[D16]

I agree, authenticity as close as can be on a console.

Yes, an option for "One Life" in team games would be cool and to that, a choice for a spectator view during the remainder of the match for those shotdown/bailed.

A variety of game setup options added to what is already in BoP.
Easy setups for quick games like today, but those who want the full experience more options/rules like...
•Hud/No Hud
•Cockpit view only (gentlemen agreement works fine, but why not add a box to tick for this too.)
•Starting on the ground and form up in the air and proceed with whatever mission/game.

I hope they keep the encyclopedia section there too.
Most of all I hope that BoS will what BoP is but a little better!
Bling, bling, paint shops, whatever as long as there's a cockpit for all and proper flight characteristics.
No need to reinvent the wheel, as was the complete f**k up back step evolution with the MotoGP 09/10 from a pretty good, close to perfect MotoGP 08/09.

[flynlion]

As much as I want realism, I voted for both. Siince they're planning on an arcade mode anyway they might as well give folks the option. I also hope they fix the flight stick dead zone issues for 360 players (not trying to hijack the thread but I had to say it).

It's getting harder and harder to wait for this game :-P

[Aquila chrysaetos]

Hello to everyone,

Hey MACADEMIC this is fantastic post and hopefully some of the suggestions would be easily implemented in BoS.

Not much to add as other forum members put out many good suggestions, but I would like to express complete agreement with Olife's suggestion(s) regarding tactic and formation flight. That coupled with historically accurate plane performances (at least in Sim difficulty mode) would be awesome, and it will bring more excitement to the game. Also, in training mode I would be delighted to see an option to include more players against AI so we can practice those formation flights and tactics with our online buddies. Perhaps, the addition of another layer of customization should be built in the game mode and that is historical on/off. What I mean by that is to enable the host to exclude certain planes from the game (which we already have to certain extent by restricting the year). I have seen more that a few times people complain about certain aircraft(s) being present. For example what “business” does IL-2 or IL-10 have in Britain or by the same token what about Spitfire above skies of Eastern front? Just for the record, I don't mind having people fly whatever they want, but as I said, host should have the ability to set the historical game mode on/off. And of course as Zatoichi_Sanjuro said please do not exclude anybody, let all the game modes exist because the freedom of choice is good :-) Oh, one more thing, D16 has some very interesting points that I like (one life and spectator view after that).


PSN: PlaviKit

[MACADEMIC]

Hi all,

And thanks for participating in this vivid discussion. Perhaps I should make it a bit more clear. There's no question about the three modes Arcade, Realistic and Simulator, we can even expect a fourth mode, Custom, that allows the host much more control of a game (it's like this in WoP).

The tests I have run were all done in Simulator mode, so the questions about the Flight Models are mostly applicable to this mode (and perhaps to Realistic, which is very similar).

MAC

[winny]

Just to be clear, when I say authenticity is paramount I do mean across all 3 modes.

Even in BoP arcade mode you can't out turn planes that you can't out turn in sim/real. So the FM does apply in Arcade, but the other factors balance it out.

As long as they get the basic FM's right then the game will work in all modes (it very nearly does in BoP) and still be credible.

For me it has to have the obvious stuff like ,Relative Top speed, rate of climb, combat flaps, engine characteristics (Realistic and above), roll rate , diving capabilities (Realistic and above), all as close as possible.

I really don't mind outdiving a Spitfire in a 190 at 800mph(Arcade) or 400 mph (Sim), as long as I can do it :)

[bobbysocks]

i agree with winny 110%. the virtues of each plane should be there to be used. evading an EA on your six is pretty difficult here for 2 reasons. 1) the flight models are so simular ( or the are completely wrong ) that you can not use the tactics the real pilots did. 2) the distance in which you are getting kills is too far. a look at camera footage shows more kills were up close and personal. thus if you can get hits and kills at that distance it creates a "buffer" zone where the opponents maneuvers can be countered. were the AC at close range a sudden maneuver could shake a foe and give you the chance to turn the tables.

[FOZ_1983]

As authentic as possible please :)

[MATALIEBRES]

I prefer as historically accurate as possible, but I think they have to offer both options. Must be given the opportunity to enjoy equally to those who do not control the flight simulator. Not everyone has such patience to learn to fly

I agree with you friend

[McKinneyJD]

Authenticity is paramount. Otherwise why have different planes?

As real as they can, please.

+1 as well

[winny]

I had another thought..

Assuming the FM's are accurate.

Arcade mode - Leave it pretty much as it is. It's fun and it won't scare away rookies.

Realistic - Make it more like the current Sim mode but add padlock/target view.
Also this is the mode that should introduce engine, stall, and a/c perfomance accurately.

Sim - Give us your worst! If you've got a button for it then I want it..
Have gaijin considered using 2 controllers? You could stick some management controlls on there, or keyboard support?

It's just widening the gaps a little between the modes really

[Robotic Pope]

I had another thought..

Assuming the FM's are accurate.

Arcade mode - Leave it pretty much as it is. It's fun and it won't scare away rookies.

Realistic - Make it more like the current Sim mode but add padlock/target view.
Also this is the mode that should introduce engine, stall, and a/c perfomance accurately.

Sim - Give us your worst! If you've got a button for it then I want it..
Have gaijin considered using 2 controllers? You could stick some management controlls on there, or keyboard support?

It's just widening the gaps a little between the modes really

Give us a SHIFT button :-P

Its obviously historic accuracy for me. I don't won't to suddenly have everyone flying Mustangs in turn and burn fights just because everybody said it sucked in BoP.

Even in arcade the FM should be based on acurate numbers from sim and just boosted over 100%

Fixing the climb rate and top speed is a must. I hate it when i'm looking down from high altitude spot a plane and dive on him only to see he has spotted me too and is climbing up to meet me at about 80 degrees and doing about the same speed as me in my dive :-x

[Cryptic Phant0m]

Let me think...:???:

AS REAL AS POSSIBLE!:twisted:

[MACADEMIC]

Hi guys,

Super discussion, thanks! :)

So far it seems that most people want as authentic if possible. Still many want to have the option to have both. It's approximately a 2/3 to 1/3rd split, with a minority who would like things to remain as they are.

I think an easy way to nearly achieve both would be through Custom mode, which is already available in WOP (and I think it'll be included in BoS too). At the moment this mode gives you an Arcade boost option which as we know let's you go supersonic in our trusted WWII warbirds ;)

If alternatively to that it gave you a BOP power option (which would imply locking top speeds to where they would historically be), you could still enjoy the airplanes pretty much the way you're used to them now, if you set up a game specifically for that.

What would you think of that?

MAC

[vdomini]

Talking a bit in general... in theory i would love to have a game experience as close as possible to real, but the bottleneck of this wonder are the output devices and the human interfaces.

It's hard to fly a 100% realistic plane in a 100% realistic enviroment, having the need to access several switches, reading several instrument panel, having the need to feel how a plane react because some settings, using just a joypad and looking at the surrounding world tru a 1080p TV screen. Few simulator users can afford a multi monitor system with force feedback devices and IR tracking, and place that in a room that will be basicly dedicated at it.

I have few "theory" i made about how huds and cockpit should be simplifyed making a game fair, some few logical drawback and considerations between realism and playability. But this is not the right thread to post them :)

So hopefully the experienced game developer will make some drawback between what few aviation geek enthusiast want ( me included :cool: ) and
a game that hopefully will sell hundred thousand copies making our lobby game room full every night :-)


p.s.: "Give us both options in the game." is my poll.