at what speed do i make circles with the 109?

[raaaid]

well forseeing everybody will fly a spit ii ill have to fly a 109

i notice if you dont pay attention with the 109 you end making circles at 200 kph and that cant be good

at what speed should i make circles with the 109?

[Danelov]

300 mph at 10000 ft is a good number and safe. Altitude and speed is like money , better to have a good reserve.

[raaaid]

yes but i mean ideals speed at sustained turning for 109

300mph seems too much :)

[fireship4]

He means what is the planes best turn rate speed for a dogfight.

I know best climb is at 250km/h at sea level, it goes down as you gain altitude.

[raaaid]

yes many people climb at 180 kph and complain ai is uber or cheating or who knows :rolleyes:

[bongodriver]

well forseeing everybody will fly a spit ii ill have to fly a 109


Strange.......I often feel it is the other way around, most people want to fly german stuff because it is sexier.

[raaaid]

i think people fly axis cause theyre aces wanna be

only germans had aces as spits pilots retired to training after 25 downs

[bongodriver]

i think people fly axis cause theyre aces wanna be

only germans had aces as spits pilots retired to training after 25 downs

I'm sure you don't quite mean it that way.....an ace officially was someone with 5 kills or more, plenty of british pilots had 'ace' status, and many british aces had more than 25 kills.

[Strike]

i think people fly axis cause theyre aces wanna be

only germans had aces as spits pilots retired to training after 25 downs

The main reason I like Axis is because of the cowling mounted MG's and later propeller hub cannons.

It's so much easier to aim and hit something with than the wing mounted stuff. The axis machines are easier to control too in most cases (more automated features such as automatic radiators and propeller pitch adjustment and lessens workload on the pilot.

However that's the exact reason it's fun/challenging to fly allied fighters :D Besides allied fighters seem less vulnerable when it comes to coolant and lubrication systems :)

[raaaid]

the only thing which makes my heart beat fast is a circle fight :)

once i dreamt i was a light dogfighting in circles a bunch of other lights around the central black hole of the universe :)

i guess got it from the game :)

i can get 120 heart rate in a dog fight but got be difficult like me in a 109 against a spit, but pls devs not imposible

edit:

also the 109 can easily out trun a spit with scissor

the sluts allow it to go slower so scissors are more effective in the 109, even in il2 46

edit:

i just tested and seems any neewbee on a spit can outurn me with a 109

well still waiting for arcade servers with equal rides :)

[Danelov]

Preferably, you aren't having to do sustained turns in the 109. BnZ tactics are more suited to this plane, you'll lose sustained turns to either the Hurri's or Spits.

Exactly, a mistake to avoid in the 109. Dont go never in turn combat with Spitfires or Hurricanes. Slats helps but is not enough and both British fighters gain advantage quickly against the 109.

[jg27_mc]

I demand a couple of sluts in my 109 too. :-P

I am 100% with cheesehawk regarding 109 tactis.

Cheers.

[1./JG2_Miller]

The axis machines are easier to control too in most cases (more automated features such as automatic radiators and propeller pitch adjustment and lessens workload on the pilot.

However that's the exact reason it's fun/challenging to fly allied fighters :D Besides allied fighters seem less vulnerable when it comes to coolant and lubrication systems :)

I think you confounded something there. 109's have manual proppitch and coolers (oil and water). I wouldn't say the Spit is easier to fly, but concerning my experience on the 109 and Spit I'd say it takes more "concentration" from the pilot in a 109. But maybe you could say it's a compensation that the Spit can't simply go in a dive cause it's engine would cut out. Hard to say...

[TomcatViP]

I demand a couple of sluts in my 109 too. :-P

I am 100% with cheesehawk regarding 109 tactis.

Cheers.

I'll take some too. C'mon Luthier put that one in your patch list !!!

But I can't see the slats working although adding a bit flaps help greatly bellow 250kph (less than 2 wheel's revolution ). Any one have more luck ?

[Danelov]

But maybe you could say it's a compensation that the Spit can't simply go in a dive cause it's engine would cut out. Hard to say...

Yes, the thing for the Spitfires and Hurricanes is entry in this Spit S fast and clean, quickly and dont loss too many distance or energy before the dive. That take some practice but with the time that come near natural.

[raaaid]

actually you can out turns spits with 109

i just outturnerded severals X ) online

the trick is going at 220 kph

you are making a tighter circle at 220 than the spit at 250

[bongodriver]

actually you can out turns spits with 109

i just outturnerded severals X ) online

the trick is going at 220 kph

you are making a tighter circle at 220 than the spit at 250

so all the spit has to do is reduce to 220 and hes got you beat again, historical fact spitfires could out-turn 109's

[raaaid]

yes but in this game you have to play with energy instant vs sustained turns

and the spit is only actually easier to pilot but not neccesaryly a better turner and the game refelcts that perfectly

the more experience i acquire with the 109 the better i outturn spits

in fact on the beginning i remmeber how badly a pro on a 109 out turn me with me on the spit

is up the pilot not the machine and much more in this game than il2 46

edit:

oh and the spit cant turn horizontally at 220 forn not having salts

[VO101_Tom]

...

Do you know this book?
Robert L. Shaw - Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering (http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599)
I recommend it very much if you did not read it. Very good book. Was made for jets, and maybe too "vocational" (it never does harm ;) ),but a lot write about a basic, useful things.

[raaaid]

check myself int he old il2 flying an i185 outturning a newbee on a gladiator :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43ua-OzpZ4

[lion737]

I'll take some too. C'mon Luthier put that one in your patch list !!!

But I can't see the slats working although adding a bit flaps help greatly bellow 250kph (less than 2 wheel's revolution ). Any one have more luck ?

Real 109 pilots never ever did let the slats come out in dogfights. As the sides werent connected, they didn´t engage simultaneously. That could ruin their day :grin:

[TomcatViP]

Real 109 pilots never ever did let the slats come out in dogfights. As the sides werent connected, they didn´t engage simultaneously. That could ruin their day :grin:

I am sry but this is a legend. Aces fly with an eye on the ball to keep her centered. They did not have any problem with the slats.

Just like the old story abt the 109 turning better one way that the other.

[TomcatViP]

check myself int he old il2 flying an i185 outturning a newbee on a gladiator :)



Flying an i185 (if it shld be called after the real aircraft) I could easily scratch my own back with the prop of my plane :rolleyes:

[lion737]

I am sry but this is a legend. Aces fly with an eye on the ball to keep her centered. They did not have any problem with the slats.


What are your references ? Mine are personal talks with 3 109 drivers. One was an ace. And yours ?

[TomcatViP]

reading (a lot)

hve fun

[lion737]

Problem is, that the authors never sat in a WW plane, and one is copying from the other.
Most of the things, I´ve been told, I did never read in a book - and i am reading a lot myself :)

[Sven]

Real 109 pilots never ever did let the slats come out in dogfights. As the sides werent connected, they didn´t engage simultaneously. That could ruin their day :grin:


Me 109 G:
"- How often did the slats in the leading edge of the wing slam open without warning?
They were exteneded always suddenly but not unexpectedly. They did not operate in high speed but in low speed. One could make them go out and in by moving the stick back and forth. When turning one slat functioned ahead of the other one, but that did not affect the steering. In a battle situation one could pull a little more if the slats had come out. They had a positive effect of the slow speed handling characteristics of the Messerschmitt.
- Could the pilot control the leading edge slats?
No. The slats were extended when the speed decreased enough, you could feel when they were extended. "
- Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.


Me 109 E/F/G: - The plane had these wing slats and you mentioned they pop open uneven?
"Two meter slots on fore wings. The reason was to increase the lift during low speed take off and landing. To reduce the length of runway you need. In the air, if you make rough turns, just by gravity, the outer slot might get out. You can correct it immediately by release of stick, you know? Only little bit, psssssssht, its in, then its gone. You have to know that. And if you know it, you prevent it."
- Major Gunther Rall. German fighter ace, NATO general, Commander of the German Air Force. 275 victories. Source: Lecture by general Rall.

And this ace made very much use of his slats:

Me 109 E:
"The Bf 109s also had leading edge slats. When the 109 was flown, advertently or inadvertently, too slow, the slats shot forward out of the wing, sometimes with a loud bang which could be heard above the noise of the engine. Many times the slats coming out frightenened young pilots when they flew the Bf 109 for the first time in combat. One often flew near the stalling speed in combat, not only when flying straight and level but especially when turning and climbing. Sometimes the slats would suddenly fly out with a bang as if one had been hit, especially when one had throttled back to bank steeply. Indeed many fresh young pilots thought they were pulling very tight turns even when the slats were still closed against the wing. For us, the more experienced pilots, real manoeuvring only started when the slats were out. For this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them.
One had to enter the turn correctly, then open up the engine. It was a matter of feel. When one noticed the speed becoming critical - the aircraft vibrated - one had to ease up a bit, then pull back again, so that in plan the best turn would have looked like an egg or a horizontal ellipse rather than a circle. In this way one could out-turn the Spitfire - and I shot down six of them doing it. This advantage to the Bf 109 soon changed when improved Spitfires were delivered."
- Erwin Leykauf, German fighter pilot, 33 victories. Source: Messerschmitt Bf109 ja Saksan Sotatalous by Hannu Valtonen; Hurricane & Messerschmitt, Chaz Bowyer and Armand Van Ishoven.

More interesting quotes from pilots about the 109 and it's slats: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/