I thought there would be a forum for dark side already.

[DGDobrev]

KB: WOTN was rather a dookie. Sorry to say it, but it was. It deviated from everything KB series starting from KBTL allowed players to do: play their own game the way they see fit. NO losses? ok. Fun times? no problem. Mix and match troops? Be my guest. Diverse enemies? Hell, yes. Map stealing? Yes, sir, if you please and put the time into it.

I sure hope KB: DS does the same. The characters are interesting, albeit repeating the KB:TL/AP/CW/WOTN lineage. You do get to miss out on the last skills of a "foreign" tree (like if you go might, you miss on last tier Spirit/Magic skills), which might hinder the spirit based character - the demoness. Paladins from other games (KBTL/KBAP/KBCW) were made to utilize all trees thanks to the balanced income of runes. This allowed for great gameplay times.

I sure hope KB:DS allows for these series did best - sand-box-ish gameplay. Wanna go through the game seriously, taking losses and paying for your mistakes? Do so. Wanna devise a no-loss strategy? Please do. Wanna multitask? Go right ahead.

People really miss the point why KB:AP, and then KB:CW were the breath of fresh air to the franchise. Reason being: it allowed for sandbox type playstyle. It gave you challenge along with that the game did best: give you decent, engaging fights. It allowed you to get creative. It allowed people to go out on a limb and do something new that the game allowed, even if UNINTENDED by the DEVS.

I bought KB:DS on steam already, and I sure hope it allows for more creativity the way KBAP and KBCW did. The price is ok even if it doesn't. In view of bad games like Sacred 3, 18-19€/USD is nothing for a game that would give you over 20+ hrs of gameplay, the way the KB franchise owned by 1C always did in any installment.

Please, 1C go balls to the wall the way you did with KBAP. Let us be creative and play the game the way we want. Give us options, and leave the players saying "game too easy on normal" be.

Ever since KBTL, the game has been made to play on hard or impossible by setting challenges. They prolonged and revitalized the game. Please keep the same attitude. Please do, guys. I implore you!!

[Zhuangzi]

I'm surprised there's no Dark Side forum myself. I haven't bought it yet, pending hearing some good news hereabouts. I don't want to be burned again like we were with WOTN + Ice & Fire.

[DGDobrev]

Sheesh, I sure am glad to see you lurking around, mate :) Now if only KBDS gets to be out sandbox game and we get impy to pull out some challenges... I honestly swear this guy could pull out challenges in its sleep.

[zjazd18]

I'm playing it atm (Early access on steam). Game gives you little choices at the begining, but opens up very quickly. Impossible no-loss is very hard, maybe even impossible for orc (warrior class archetype). There are many changes to skill tree, and it's more unique for each class. Don't think it's possible to kite guards from maps, they are put in really tight spot and they agro range is very short. Quests seems more fun to do. Rage abilities are completly new, but share some ideas from previous ones(my fav is terrain altering one - destroying hexagons for short amount of time). Atm i feel stuck with my army - not enough good minions early on, so i guess every new game start will look the same. I'm having fun so far, wheres i forced myself to finish KB:WoTN. Can't wait to see how people figure out some impossible battles to do no-loss. Sorry for randomness of my text.

[Zhuangzi]

I'm not too bothered about no-loss. It was fun, but I'd prefer a game that was more challenging and made you feel like just WINNING a battle was an achievement. :-P

I am still on the fence about buying this, at least immediately. One of my main problems with WOTN was that it was far, far too long and grinding. When I played Ice and Fire, I think it took 40+ hours of play just to get up to the new island. I abandoned the playthrough shortly thereafter.

So, do we have any idea roughly how long the campaign will be? I'm hoping for something more like AP's length.

And hi to you, too, DGDobrev :) Hopefully this will be the new KB we've been waiting for since at least Crossworlds.

EDIT: DGD, I've just read your comments on the Steam forum and I've decided to take the plunge and buy the game anyway. I figure I might as well get the preorder bonuses. Has it really been six years since The Legend? I agree with your comments about not judging the game too much pre-release in terms of bugs, but I guess I'm worried that if there are bugs now, one day out from release, they will still be there tomorrow.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing.

[DGDobrev]

Well, let's face it, all KB games had some bugs at launch, so it may still be the case with this one. I also think that the price is very good for this kind of game. 18€ is a decent value for everything KB is, even if it turns out to be like WOTN, so was quite ok paying for it. In the face of rougher than the average games like Sacred 3 that have the audacity to ask for 50€, I think KBDS has found a very decent price spot.

[Dword]

I started playing the KBs 2 years ago when I got AP for $3. For that price, I had nothing to lose, right? What I lost was interest in most other games!

After getting the other titles, my cost per gaming hour was still less than a penny. I didn't hesitate to pay full price for WotN and DS. I just wanted them as soon as possible.

As for being too long, I deliberately make them longer by reloading and replaying constantly. It's the sandbox effect mentioned in the Steam forum. I obviously enjoy the journey more than reaching the goal. I'm a mediocre player anyway so a low final score and massive casualties don't bother me.

I guess I'll eventually be trying for no loss on impossible, but for now I like going slow and enjoying the scenery.

My big concern after 3 DS playthroughs has already been mentioned. It's just too hard for beginners. Without a more structured tutorial and weaker enemies, I'm afraid many tryers will never become buyers. Low sales might discourage development of new KB versions. If I had played DS before AP, it might have ended up back on the shelf. Pre-release is not the final product though, so I'm hoping for the best.

[impy]

Sheesh, I sure am glad to see you lurking around, mate :) Now if only KBDS gets to be out sandbox game and we get impy to pull out some challenges... I honestly swear this guy could pull out challenges in its sleep.

Thanks for the honorable mention DG :lol:
I will not be buying new KB right away, give it a few weeks till the dust settles, somehow I cannot take another disappointment like before..

I am actually having fun at the moment with Ecania's Red Sands extended mode. I think original Crossworlds impossible difficulty was around 200%, Red Sands extreme 300%, this mode special edition is 400%, so playing it no-loss is "refreshingly hair-raising" :shock:, some stacks have over 200 000, even close to 300 000 leadership.
I said it before, when one is pushed, you're forced to adapt and still find new and cute improvements. Take pet dragon's Helmet with Antenna for example. It gives 30% increased chance to shock of your Lightning ball, for a total of 50 + 30 = 80% shock chance per ball. Therefore mage casting 3 x lightning ball in the first round has a great chance to seriously cripple enemy forces in round 1. Sometimes it is the only way forward. Take a look at screenshoot - regular stack at Nameless.

[DGDobrev]

Don't. I bought it out of my respect for what KB has done for me over the years. I usually judge a game very harshly - I think every 2-3 hours of gaming time should cost like cost 1 euro, while people judge games much more lazily these days. This is why I made the sacred 3 reference: and hence my angry rant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SgSTSKl3m8. The game is like 10 hours of brainless button mashing and costs 50€. Lol.

I know for a fact that dumped over 100 hours in KB, so I am ok buying anything the ship out right now. This is also being the reason I got the plat edition of KB - meaning KBTL (Xeona FTW), KBAP and KBCW (like the golden years of the franchise) - on Steam even though I had keys for KBTL and KBAP - and I got them by actually making the 100 000th post on the 1C forums, if I recall correctly. This was an extremely pleasant surprise.

Let's hope KBDS provides. I also think KBDS is good priced - every KB game provided 50+ hours of enjoyment and this is quite ok in my opinion.

Holy freaking hell impy, now this is a challenge that is made to improve your skills. Can you give me those Black knights? With shard of darkness and ultra retaliation I will kick the living stuff out of any enemy. Please? Or wait... is that just too cheesy? Yes, no, perhaps, maybe? LOL :D

EDIT: As soon as the game unlocks tomorrow, I am diving into it big time, and I will give you updates. My main concerns are simple: Mage has undead troops, and vampires are good for no-loss , for the obvious reason of them reviving themselves. Fighter has ork troops, and they have good HP, with some troops having the retaliation ability, which I always liked, and can be ok for no-loss. Spirit Character, like the Demoness, has DEMONS, which are piss poor for no-loss playthroughs based on they poor HP, even though demons have great skills - Imps' fireball is great, demoness' lash is superb, and the Archdemon's stack halving ability rocks. So let us see: if you are not forced into a bottleneck, any of those characters can go for no-loss. All of them have access to great units that can contribute to it. But if you are forced into a bottleneck like WOTN did... Sorry, but it will be a big NO-NO-NO on my part.

[zjazd18]

Don't worry, only like 10 battles are with forced starting troops. And demoness in my opinion is the best, cause you get Demon (unit) 240hp and can summon other demons with decent leadership ratios. Then all classes have pretty much the same unit selection, very limited at start but there are some choices to make. Around 50battles in, you can have nice selection of troops. I'm playing heavy summon party (necromancers, demons, royal thorns, demonologist, and 1 red dragon (can't find more yet) for tanking initial hits, then summons take over). What i don't like they took human units, and made "dark versions" of them, with basically the same skills, kinda boring so there is Dark Paladin(can ressurect dark units) , Archmage etc. Pacing is good in this game, doesn't feel like the grind from WoTN and there is nice feeling of fallen dark champion rising in power.

BTW - Archdemons dont have halving anymore, but we get similar skill in warrior skill tree (15% chance of destroying half of the troop at 3points)

[DGDobrev]

You are raising my spirits, mate. I would love nothing more than to see the franchise returning to its good old sandbox glory.

I am a huge fan of SPIRIT characters, as they are usually underpowered. The extra leadership NEVER makes up for the spell spamming ability of the mage ( managed to do 1 Black dragon playthrough on KBAP till level 43 (no loss understandably), and I knew I can go further, but I was brought down by travel times, or the brute force of the fighter (so easy, as the skills are so straightforward). I wanna do stuff as the spirit char, so the Demoness will be the char I will pick for my KBDS playthrough. If she can do it - holy crappers, we are so into this one.

EDIT 2: Zhu, whats your steam name? I would love to befriend you on steam, along with anyone else who has a steam account and plays stuff I do. My steam name is he same as in this forum: DG Dobrev. I will never ever refuse a friend on steam, and I would play with you if I can.

BIG EDIT: Here comes a friendly note to 1C, You went MMO strategy, with your game much sooner than necessary. Gain fans and do it. Balance out stuff and do it. This is the way to go. Starcraft 1 (!) did it, because people were looking ahead and were providing options to counter other options. In KB onlline, the balance needs to be spot on. It is not.Take a breather guys, and then you can do it. Making a balanced game means expanding your horizons and thinking out of the box like you never did before. I am sure you can do it. I am all in to help. Now imagine: Impy beats a 4xImpossible plathrough. Wat does this tel you? He devised a new strategy. Imagine how you can beat his strategy, and you will make the next kB online game. As I said before, you did it a tad too soon guys, you really did.

[Zhuangzi]

DGD - I added you on Steam (Captain Suction) :)

I just had a look around at the game for 20 mins but I won't start playing properly until the official release. I love the idea of being a Demoness character. I noticed that the minimap doesn't seem to be functional at the moment?

EDIT: Whoa, you've played XCOM longer than I have! I think I have 150 hours or so (inc Enemy Within). Some of the hardcore fans of the original game didn't like it but I thought it was fine. Did you play Xenonauts too? I played that for about 40 hours (one complete playthrough) but I'm not much interested in playing it through again, at least not now.

[DGDobrev]

I wanted to go ahead and buy it, but I am absolutely realizing that I have more games than I can stomach right now. I work like any other normal person does, so I have like 2-3 hours a day max to play something, and looking at the influx of good games... Oh boy, this has been a good year. In my limited playing time I am doing Divinity: OS, XCOM, Space Engineers, along with advancing Mass Effect slowly to check out the story.

I played XCOM the only way I can: Classic/Ironman, and I don't really care if I will win or not. I like games that punish you for bad decisions: KB is one of them too. :D

[Kiras]

I'm slightly confused about the release date. I thought it was the 14th, as do most of the posters in the thread, but when I looked at the news on Steam, it looks like it's the 19th?

[Zhuangzi]

I'm slightly confused about the release date. I thought it was the 14th, as do most of the posters in the thread, but when I looked at the news on Steam, it looks like it's the 19th?

Yeah, I was hoping it'd be downloading a big release day patch right now, but I see that they've sneakily altered the release date to the 19th instead. Actually, I'm encouraged by that in a way. I am worried that they'll release a buggy, broken game so a short delay close to release probably indicates that they are scrambling to try to fix as many bugs as possible.

DGD - yeah, Classic Ironman is the way to go. I completed the game at least 2-3 times on this difficulty (including in Enemy Within) and it was the best fun I had with PC gaming in a long time. Those first few missions are brutal though. I reckon I had to restart 10-20 times to get it right. But once you get past the first couple of months, it gets much easier.

Oh, and Thin Men early in the game :eek: :eek:

[DGDobrev]

Yes, the release date has been changed indeed. No biggie :)

As for xcom, you are absolutely correct. The game is very punishing at start, and to top it all, in Enemy Within the enemies also got smarter. Fun times :)

[jake21]

So I played a full game of DS; and it was fairly good. There were some major quest bugs and frequent crashes but the overall structure was much better than WOTN. Near the end the quests started getting a bit old (a lot of running back and forth and you can't fly on some of the islands that require much back and forth) those would be my critisim but the game is much more RPG than previous games.

Oh one thing that bothered me is a lot of quest would refer to people (go to xyz) but the on map default markers for stores and stuff have building names that did not match up to the person you had to visit so this was also very annoying (as the map is large enough it was quite time consuming in some spots)
-
So while I have my complaints over all I think it is a very good game it is also much harder (even on non impossible) than the previous games.
-
Oh last but least it crash way too much on time back.

[zjazd18]

Well game seems bug free, haven't seen one crash yet. Not sure if Jealousy rage skill is working as intended, other than that haven't seen anything out of ordinary. What i hope is some balancing is being done. We have 2 rage skill that deal % dmg + halving talent in warrior tree, 15% chance seems like not much but it procs like crazy. Necromancers can hit 7 units at same time, so its like 95% chance that one unit will be halved. Let's face it, impossible only difficulty is size of the opponent army, and with that many percentage dmg abilities i fear for the lack of challenge in mid to late game.

EDIT; jake21 you played on the latest build, or earlier ? I don't have time back to test, saw it in the shop will buy and try it out.

[jake21]

Latest build; time back does not crash every time you use it but maybe 1 in 3 if you use it on the same troups 2 or 3 times in the same fight. So if you want to test it just use it on the same stack once every 3 turns or so and it should crash. Crash might also be related on what effects are on the troups you are sending back in time (I mostly used them on stack of thorns). Also when sending something back in time it does not remove effects (wounds, fire, ...) not sure if that is a bug or intentional.

Well game seems bug free, haven't seen one crash yet. Not sure if Jealousy rage skill is working as intended, other than that haven't seen anything out of ordinary. What i hope is some balancing is being done. We have 2 rage skill that deal % dmg + halving talent in warrior tree, 15% chance seems like not much but it procs like crazy. Necromancers can hit 7 units at same time, so its like 95% chance that one unit will be halved. Let's face it, impossible only difficulty is size of the opponent army, and with that many percentage dmg abilities i fear for the lack of challenge in mid to late game.

EDIT; jake21 you played on the latest build, or earlier ? I don't have time back to test, saw it in the shop will buy and try it out.

[Zhuangzi]

So I played a full game of DS; and it was fairly good. There were some major quest bugs and frequent crashes but the overall structure was much better than WOTN. Near the end the quests started getting a bit old (a lot of running back and forth and you can't fly on some of the islands that require much back and forth) those would be my critisim but the game is much more RPG than previous games.

Oh one thing that bothered me is a lot of quest would refer to people (go to xyz) but the on map default markers for stores and stuff have building names that did not match up to the person you had to visit so this was also very annoying (as the map is large enough it was quite time consuming in some spots)
-
So while I have my complaints over all I think it is a very good game it is also much harder (even on non impossible) than the previous games.
-
Oh last but least it crash way too much on time back.

That's encouraging - thanks for the run-down. I've only played for about an hour myself, I figured there's no point starting now this close to release, but I noticed a couple of major problems.

1. No map, or rather there's no maps in the dropdown menu and the world map is all clouded over. Intentional for pre-release?

2. Ability cooldowns not working. I started as the demons and I noticed that a couple of the unit's cooldowns weren't working at all, as in I was able to use them turn after turn even though they said 'Cooldown 4' or whatever. I forget the name of the unit, but one was the new fire sprite thingy that has an area attack all around it.

EDIT: Nevermind on both counts. After yesterday's 12mb patch the cooldown problem has gone away (it was for the Fire Elemental) and I've realised that perhaps there's not supposed to be a map for the initial area, which I guess is a unique area depending on your starting class? I started as the other two classes and they have unique starting locations, which is a new idea for a KB game. But now that I've just entered the Catacombs, the map seems to be working again.

I wonder if this is pretty much complete now, as in, can I start playing, huh, huh? I even got my Clot of Darkness :)

[zjazd18]

Demons have frenzy now, one of the advantages is cooldown reduction. So probably that's why you were able to use it faster than stated in ability description. Go play the game, maybe you will figure out how to do some of the early battles (3 stacks on whitehill) impossible no loss :-P

EDIT: Halving is absolutely absurd - my summoned cerberus (18units) dealing 10+k dmg.

[jake21]

On steam it shows as early access; has the release date changed again ?

[DGDobrev]

The full game hasn't unlocked yet. Still no biggie. All we need now is rickah88 to show up and ask for a CD version :D

[Zhuangzi]

Looks like it's out now. Early access stuff has disappeared from Steam and now there's options to buy the standard or premium editions.

[J.B.]

...All we need now is rickah88 to show up and ask for a CD version :D

And, again, we (Germany) can say "Yes, there is one!". :grin:

BR

J.B.

[Anti-global]

Does it have completely new world (like Armored Princess had) or just recycled old one (like Warriors of the North)?

Can you still choose humans?

If not then this is a complete fail, as far as I am concerned.

I am an orthodox christian, and I will not play any demons or vampires, not even orcs, and fight the forces of good. No mather that it is just a game. So I think that you lost big percentage of customers. Not everyone is satanist or an atheist, you know...

I will give it a pass. If you make another game, similar to this but with human, dwarf and elf races, than I will buy that game.

[DGDobrev]

This game is not for you then. Just go back to KBAP and KBCW and you will be perfectly ok.

I think you are taking this way too seriously. It's a game, not real life stuff.

[J.B.]

Does it have completely new world (like Armored Princess had) or just recycled old one (like Warriors of the North)?

Can you still choose humans?

If not then this is a complete fail, as far as I am concerned.

I am an orthodox christian, and I will not play any demons or vampires, not even orcs, and fight the forces of good. No mather that it is just a game. So I think that you lost big percentage of customers. Not everyone is satanist or an atheist, you know...

I will give it a pass. If you make another game, similar to this but with human, dwarf and elf races, than I will buy that game.

I respect your point of view, but don't you think there can be good demons/orcs/vampires in Fantasy World, as well as bad elvens/dwarfs/humans? In a universe like this it's not a matter of the race, but a matter of the behaviour to me. Perhaps you might consider this before dooming this KB-Part. :)

KR

J.B.

[Anti-global]

Dark side, not for me. Simple as that.

BTW, I am KB fan. I like Legend, and also like Armored Princess the most. Still waiting for the new KB as good as those 2 where...

[DGDobrev]

This one has the makings of being a good game - it has me thinking and devising tactics, which is always a good thing.

[Mandea]

This one has the makings of being a good game - it has me thinking and devising tactics, which is always a good thing.

Told you so. :D
It was a good game even in very early beta.

[DGDobrev]

True, but I collect info first and then jump in :P

[sethmage]

Did anybody notice that on the king’s bounty forums the KB:WofT instead of apostrophe in King’s there is acute `?
Seriously thou, is somebody still working for 1C or the lights are out and they are not coming back on?

[DGDobrev]

I did not, lol. Now I did. Not that much of a biggie, though :D

[jake21]

They added some auto rotate thingy that is driving me mad; is there any way to disable it ?