German Prop Pitch Lever

[Eldur]

Someone showed me this:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge/J%E4ger/Me109E/Instrumentenbeschreibung/Bilder.htm

It says:

13. Verstellschalter für Luftschraube
- Fl. 18502
- Hersteller Bosch

Bemerkung: Dieser Hebelschalter diente zur Bedienung des Verstellmotors für die Luftschraube. Durch Drücken nach oben wurde die Motordrehzahl größer, durch drücken nach unten kleiner. Der Hebel kehrte selbsttätig in die Neutralstellung zurück. Ab der Version E-4 wurde der Schalter durch einen Daumenschalter Fl 32337 am Gashebel ersetzt. Die Öffnung im Gerätebrett wurde mit einem Blindblech verschlossen. Kennzeichnung am Gerätebrett: E9

The essential part, marked as bold font translated: The RPM is increased by pressing the Lever upwards and it's decreased by pressing it downwards. The Lever returns to the neutral position by itself.

That basically means it should be controlled just like the trim or the water radiators. So the way we have it now is not correct.

[Siegfried]

And maybe all german planes too. Is that the reason for propeller pitch indicator on cockpit i think.

[pupo162]

the luftwinner inside me says this would evne complicate things more for ze 109...

why cnat we have normal radiator??? i mean, its a normal cranck, its so stupid i cant amually place the level i want like any other rad in game...

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/images/cockpit1092.jpg this also... i really wish for our CSP :P


luftwhine off//

[TomcatViP]

Someone showed me this:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge/J%E4ger/Me109E/Instrumentenbeschreibung/Bilder.htm

It says:



The essential part, marked as bold font translated: The RPM is increased by pressing the Lever upwards and it's decreased by pressing it downwards. The Lever returns to the neutral position by itself.

That basically means it should be controlled just like the trim or the water radiators. So the way we have it now is not correct.

Yes you are correct (just like an electrical trim) but I don't see any difference here as the end result on the prop pitch won't hve been linear.

You might be able however to set two keys on your keyboard to simulate this.

[Eldur]

It would be a lot more precise then. Regarding the radiator, I'd also prefer if it just would be like the oil radiator control.

[pupo162]

ELdur, more precise, less intuactive.... ot be fair, with the pitch in a leaver, i have mentally memorized where i want it. ith buttons i will have to keep watching the instrument.

wither way: bring on the realism! if they had it as a go up go down, so be it.

[IvanK]

the luftwinner inside me says this would evne complicate things more for ze 109...

why cnat we have normal radiator??? i mean, its a normal cranck, its so stupid i cant amually place the level i want like any other rad in game...

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/images/cockpit1092.jpg this also... i really wish for our CSP :P


luftwhine off//

There are 4 Possibilities with Prop pitch on the 109E.

OPTION 1
As we have it now Straight variable pitch (no CSU) with pitch controlled by the main panel
spring loaded to centre lever. Only error in the modelling here is that the lever is not spring loaded to the centre position.

OPTION 2
Lever on the main panel was removed and a Rocker Switch on the throttle used. Still straight variable pitch (no CSU)
blanking plate fitted over the hole left in the main panel.

OPTION 3
Auto function with CSU fitted as a field mod. This did not come into service until late 1940. Available documentation indicates Squadron use starting in early Nov 1940. The RAF Hendon E3 has this system. It was shot down on 21st or 23rd Nov 1940. An additional switch was located below the throttle to allow the Auto system to be turned off. When off the Rocker was used as in option 2. We know its field mod in this aircraft as a blanking plate has been placed to cover the hole left by removal of the panel switch. The blanking plate also having the hand written note reminding the pilot that this aircraft is now fitted with the Auto system.

OPTION 4
Auto fitted at factory level. These aircraft can be identified by the lack of a blanking plate on the main panel

So modelling is correct (other than spring to centre), we just dont yet have the late 1940 Auto system ... it will eventually be there.

[heloguy]

After reading this article, I was definitely hoping to have the option for the auto mode soon:

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/124/language/en-CA/Bounding-Clouds--Flying-the-Messerschmitt-Bf-109.aspx

I have an older magazine with an article about this 109 that explains that it was actually flown by Marseille in the Battle of Britain (hence the number 14), and was crash landed on the beach in France by him. The aircraft was then refitted and sent to the Eastern front, where it was crashed in a bog, being preserved until it was found a few years back.

Anyway, note how this pilot says that he sees the switch to turn on and off the auto mode, but the mechanic tells him that while installed, they haven't gotten it working yet.

I guess, though, there's always the chance that this particular model had it installed after Marseille crashed it.

[Kurfurst]

There are 4 Possibilities with Prop pitch on the 109E.

OPTION 1
As we have it now Straight variable pitch (no CSU) with pitch controlled by the main panel
spring loaded to centre lever. Only error in the modelling here is that the lever is not spring loaded to the centre position.

OPTION 2
Lever on the main panel was removed and a Rocker Switch on the throttle used. Still straight variable pitch (no CSU)
blanking plate fitted over the hole left in the main panel.

OPTION 3
Auto function with CSU fitted as a field mod. This did not come into service until late 1940. Available documentation indicates Squadron use starting in early Nov 1940. The RAF Hendon E3 has this system. It was shot down on 21st or 23rd Nov 1940. An additional switch was located below the throttle to allow the Auto system to be turned off. When off the Rocker was used as in option 2. We know its field mod in this aircraft as a blanking plate has been placed to cover the hole left by removal of the panel switch. The blanking plate also having the hand written note reminding the pilot that this aircraft is now fitted with the Auto system.

OPTION 4
Auto fitted at factory level. These aircraft can be identified by the lack of a blanking plate on the main panel

So modelling is correct (other than spring to centre), we just dont yet have the late 1940 Auto system ... it will eventually be there.

The information regarding the date of availibilty of the auto function is wrong.

The Bf 109E1 and E-3 manual of December 1939 already notes the automatic system (Verstellautomatik), and gives different operating instructions to those planes with the old manual system ("Options 1 and 2") and the auto prop pitch system.

Auto and manual props pitch systems also had differently designated VDM propellor type numbers.

[xnomad]

ELdur, more precise, less intuactive.... ot be fair, with the pitch in a leaver, i have mentally memorized where i want it. ith buttons i will have to keep watching the instrument.

wither way: bring on the realism! if they had it as a go up go down, so be it.

My thoughts exactly, I just use the throttle lever on my joystick as prop pitch and it's really easy as you just memorise the positions but if it isn't realistic then it's got to go.

[IvanK]

Again Kurfurst as in the other thread:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=22204

Do you have documentation that indicates Auto was in general operational use before late 1940 ? If you do it would be great to see it.

[JG53Frankyboy]

My thoughts exactly, I just use the throttle lever on my joystick as prop pitch and it's really easy as you just memorise the positions but if it isn't realistic then it's got to go.

i personaly hope if/when this will be changed, the 109's propeller pitch is still controlable with a radial axis (i have mapped the pitch on the thump wheel of my X52 Throttle) and we are not forced to map two new buttons , a "increase" and "decrease" propeller pitch button, espacially for the 109........

[xnomad]

I've mapped the prop pitch to hat buttons on my CH pro throttle now instead of an axis (to be more realistic)

However in the current implementation you hit the switch once and the clock arms start spinning until they get to their new position. The movement is random and imprecise ranging from about 35 minutes to 40.You don't know where the hands are going to stop.

I wonder if it was like this in real life? It would be easier if the minute hands movement was proportional to how long you hold the switch down, i.e. let go and the hand stops moving. Of course this means the clock indicates the pitch you've selected and not the current pitch settings as it takes the prop a while to cycle, as shown in it's current form.

In the current form you don't actually know what setting you have selected until it stops spinning so if you hit it quite often it could go back several hours and you don't notice until it keeps spinning past what you wanted. If it's realistic then so be it, but it does seem wrong and not helpful for the pilot.

Does anyone have any information on how this worked?

Anyone have any contact with Russell Aviation Group who have that Bf109 E?

[JG53Frankyboy]

I've mapped the prop pitch to hat buttons on my CH pro throttle now instead of an axis (to be more realistic)

..........................

well, as long the CoD 109 has no thumb switch on its throttle you have to map these buttons on your Keayboard to get 'realism' i would guess ;)

no offence !! :)

[xnomad]

well, as long the CoD 109 has no thumb switch on its throttle you have to map these buttons on your Keayboard to get 'realism' i would guess ;)

no offence !! :)

No you are right. I just don't want to map prop pitch 3 times. I'm banking on the E4 having the rocker switch.

I found this info on what I was talking about earlier, and it seems to agree with my ideas about the switch having to be held down. I have no idea what the source is but I think 'Wastel' was on the Ubi boards?

http://marseillegruppe.com/foro/viewtopic.php?p=2954&sid=3591268e7829c1e00ff328cb9d3b84f4

[Varrattu]

I've mapped the prop pitch to hat buttons on my CH pro throttle now instead of an axis (to be more realistic)

However in the current implementation you hit the switch once and the clock arms start spinning until they get to their new position. The movement is random and imprecise ranging from about 35 minutes to 40.You don't know where the hands are going to stop.

Does anyone have any information on how this worked?


Pressing the two-way rocker switch up, the RPM increase , by pressing down RPM decrease. The original switch returns automatically to neutral.

From version E-4, the switch was replaced by a thumb switch on the throttle. The opening in the instrument board was sealed with blank sheet metal. Marked on the instrument board: E9.

The original pitch indicator "clock" is graduated so that 1 hour equals 6° of blade pitch or, 10 minutes equals 1°. The Bf 109E-3 VDM propellor can be placed in any position from 22.5° (fine pitch/high speed) to 90° (fully feathered) by 1-minute steps, equals 0,1° blade pitch.

Happy landings

Varrattu

As an aside. The range of the BF109E-3 propellor (CloD beta v14413) is from 12.00 full fine to 02:40 full coarse. ClOD BF109E-3 Propeller pitch comes with available positions in 5% increments from 0% to 100%, control can also be assigned to an axis that allows "finer" control at 1% increments. Assuming, that 10 minutes on the pitch indicator "clock" equals 1° you are able to adjust the pitch in steps by 5,6 minutes. I wonder if this equals a pitch range of 90°-22,5°=67,5°.

[xnomad]

Hi Varrattu,

Thanks but I think you misunderstood me; I'm aware of the rocker switch and the lever and what they each do. What I meant is does anyone know how the switch, pitch and indicator functioned together, as a system, in real life.

The link I posted in my last post had the following quote in it:

"The prop will adjust its pitch at a speed of 1.5*(degrees) per second for
as long as the rocker switch is held and then stop when the switch is
released."

This is how I imagined a system like this would work. The game doesn't do it this way, if you use buttons to replicate pushing the lever up or down, the clock hands start to spin on their own for a bit and stop at an arbitrary position. This is just from one push of the button and not holding it down.

In the example above this wouldn't happen; the length of time you hold the switch or lever in a position, is directly proportional to how much and how long the hands on the indicator clock move and the prop changes pitch. This sounds like you could have very precise control and know exactly what setting you are selecting and where the prop pitch is at that moment. You want 11:17 you can set it, try that right now, you'll be lucky to get 11:17 or even close. Even with a lever/axis touch it a bit and the prop pitch cycles through several degrees in one go.

If you try using the buttons in the game, rather than a lever/axis, the clock indicator is almost useless as reference instrument. With a lever/axis the clock is also useless but you can memorise positions in degrees on your lever.

Of course you can count how many clicks you've done with the buttons too but what's the point of the clock then? It doesn't sound like it's historically accurate according to my link. My link is copy from a post so I have no idea what the original source is so it's not hard proof. Hence me asking if anyone has any information on how this worked in real life.

[Varrattu]

Hi Varrattu,

The link I posted in my last post had the following quote in it:

"The prop will adjust its pitch at a speed of 1.5*(degrees) per second for
as long as the rocker switch is held and then stop when the switch is
released."


Hi xnomad,

look here:

http://marseillegruppe.com/foro/viewtopic.php?p=2954&sid=3591268e7829c1e00ff328cb9d3b84f4

the considerations / ideas in the a.m. thread are interesting but we should careful deal with in connection with CloD.

Maybe that the manual "D.(Luft)T. 3810 - VDM-Verstell-Luftschrauben Gerätehandbuch" can help us. But I didn't find it in open sources.

regards Varrattu

[xnomad]

Hi xnomad,

look here:

http://marseillegruppe.com/foro/viewtopic.php?p=2954&sid=3591268e7829c1e00ff328cb9d3b84f4

the considerations / ideas in the a.m. thread are interesting but we should careful deal with in connection with CloD.

Maybe that the manual "D.(Luft)T. 3810 - VDM-Verstell-Luftschrauben Gerätehandbuch" can help us. But I didn't find it in open sources.

regards Varrattu

Sorry I'm confused, that's the same link I posted 4 posts above this one on this page. Did you intend to post a different link and pasted in the wrong one or was it an oversight?

[Varrattu]

Did you intend to post a different link and pasted in the wrong one or was it an oversight?

Yep, it was an oversight :(

Regards Varrattu

[xnomad]

That's a shame I was hoping you posted the wrong link. :)
I can't find any more info on this except for the manuals you mentioned that you have to pay for.

[JG53Frankyboy]

"The propellor pitch control on all Daimler-Benz-equipped Messerschmitts is now a spring-loaded electrical switch"
that will be interesting to see how it will work now after the patch....if the rotating axis is still useable !

[xnomad]

lol the latest patch has completely wrecked the prop pitch for me.

The directions are now reversed on the lever and the spring holds the lever in the full up position instead of the centre.

The bf109 is unflyable in CEM now. :(

[tillobert]

lol the latest patch has completely wrecked the prop pitch for me.

The directions are now reversed on the lever and the spring holds the lever in the full up position instead of the centre.

The bf109 is unflyable in CEM now. :(

yep i got the same problem

[Tiger27]

lol the latest patch has completely wrecked the prop pitch for me.

The directions are now reversed on the lever and the spring holds the lever in the full up position instead of the centre.

The bf109 is unflyable in CEM now. :(

I have mine on a lever/slider and as long as I bring it back to center the pitch stops where I want it, actually it is more accurate than before as it used to travel on a bit after adjustment, but I think it is working upside down as in what you see in the cockpit doesnt match diagrams regarding this lever.

[PzMeyer]

for me pitch is completely broken too.
I lower the pitch a bit and it constantly lowers to lowest level if i DONT hold the "raise pitch" button....how can i set the neutral pitch setting?

[xnomad]

Just thought I'd mention that the devs are aware of this and working on it first thing to release a hotfix. In the meantime try to assign it to an axis (if you have one spare)

Yaaaay! :grin:
I mapped mine to the micro stick on my CH throttle (it's like a mini joystick for your thumb) as it has a centre spring it works perfectly now. Yes not the good news for most of you but a great interim solution for me. :grin:

Ok the lever directions in the cockpit are still reversed but just ignore the animation. The clock is actually useful now and you have so much fine control. You want 10:10? You got it. You want 9:30 or even 9:32 no problem, hold it down until it reaches the desired setting then let go!

That's exactly how I imagined it should work. This makes it so much better as you can memorise settings on the clock and you've got great precision control. I like 10:10 for level flight and 9:30 with the throttle back for dives.

[PzMeyer]

lol....this mean i cant set it with the keyboard...i have to set it on the only analog stick control i have on my stick.......niiiiiiiiiiice one -.-
thats so annoying. touch the propitch and it lowers if i dont constantly push the raise up button.....
i think of setting up my old gamepad so i have additional analog control sticks.....man this sucks

[VO101_Tom]

Hi guys. Im just copy my post from another topic. Nothing new :)

Hello dev Team. I saw gladly, that the propeller switch you tried to correct it. Is the file not put very far? :rolleyes: Somebody would exchange the increase and decrease directions? The translation did not succeed unfortunately:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/schalter/gross/Fl18502-2.gif

Größer - "greater" RPM!!* Reduce the angle of attack of the propeller (to the rotatory plane**), the wind resistance of a propeller decreases, the rev of an engine accelerates. The Prop pitch gauge move to 12:00.
Drehzahl - "rev/min"
Kleiner - "lesser" RPM: increase the AoA of propeller.
Segelstllg (Segelstellung) - "Glide-standing" increase to maximum AoA of Propeller**, because this causes the smallest wind resistance, if the engine stopped. This now totally wrong on the switch, thats why have to fix this.


* http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge/J%E4ger/Me109E/Instrumentenbeschreibung/Bilder.htm
**What they measure the position angle of the propeller against in the Russian technical literature? Strange, that it was counted turned over in the il-2 already. I wrote the position angle of the propeller compared to the rotatory plane.

[Tiger27]

Just thought I'd mention that the devs are aware of this and working on it first thing to release a hotfix. In the meantime try to assign it to an axis (if you have one spare)

Yaaaay! :grin:
I mapped mine to the micro stick on my CH throttle (it's like a mini joystick for your thumb) as it has a centre spring it works perfectly now. Yes not the good news for most of you but a great interim solution for me. :grin:

Ok the lever directions in the cockpit are still reversed but just ignore the animation. The clock is actually useful now and you have so much fine control. You want 10:10? You got it. You want 9:30 or even 9:32 no problem, hold it down until it reaches the desired setting then let go!

That's exactly how I imagined it should work. This makes it so much better as you can memorise settings on the clock and you've got great precision control. I like 10:10 for level flight and 9:30 with the throttle back for dives.

Yes even on a lever where I have to set it back to centre it is alot more accurate, i am assuming it is not so good when using a button I like the way you are forced to use the dial as there is no % shown, the settings you are using xnomad are pretty much what I am finding to be pretty effective, bit of work to set up for a dive and the pull out now, no more roll over for a BnZ like the good 'ol Il2 days.

[JG53Frankyboy]

yep, i mapped the DB601 (except He111P) pitch after this patch additional to two buttons for commands "increase pitch" and "decrease pitch". It not works as it should :D

the radial wheel axis on my X52 throttle that i mapped to pitch control too (for use before the patch and now for all other planes) is still working much better fopr the DB601s. Even i have to turn this will a lot, BUT, if i center it (and the X52 has a center i can feel :) ) the the pitch stops.

[SG1_Lud]

As for the logitech G940, at last I can find some use to the miniaxis in the joystick. Fine and precise :)

[Ze-Jamz]

Ok i didnt realize this was bing talked about already as i started a thread with a question regarding how the new prop pitch works..

so basically as it is now..its broken

il await hotfix

[JG53Frankyboy]

reminds me on the 'good old days' when 1C deleted the rudder trim of the Bf109K-4 in IL2 and deleted its rudder control totaly :D

[Sokol1]

If find bug in PP control, instead map one axis in "Propellor pitch" try map in "Propellor pitch #1".

Sokol1

[xnomad]

reminds me on the 'good old days' when 1C deleted the rudder trim of the Bf109K-4 in IL2 and deleted its rudder control totaly :D

At least that was one of many 109's whereas this is the only single seater for blue. This kills MP a little for those without a control axis spare. Then again MP seems dead lately regardless.

[AnarchyZG]

Well, this tells us something about their dev process: if it compiles, it gets released. I mean it's such an obvious, easy to spot and crippling...

[SG1_Lud]

If find bug in PP control, instead map one axis in "Propellor pitch" try map in "Propellor pitch #1".

Sokol1

This is a SOLUTION. And aparently is being ignored.

Good observation Sokol

[DB605]

This is a SOLUTION. And aparently is being ignored.

Good observation Sokol

Yes indeed, thank you Sokol!

[Ze-Jamz]

This is a SOLUTION. And aparently is being ignored.

Good observation Sokol

What?

[VO101_Tom]

What?

You have to set keys to "prop pitch engine #1", its work.

(Thx Sokol1, good idea)

[Ze-Jamz]

You have to set keys to "prop pitch engine #1", its work.

(Thx Sokol1, good idea)

I see..

yes it does work..thanks all

[Hellbender]

Thx for the tip. Very helpful.

[TUCKIE_JG52]

I can't find the post where this video was requested. Well, here it is, it's self-explanatoy ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kcCWt7rUNQ

[Strike]

I have a question for the veteran BF-109 technicians on this forum:

Does that actually work IRL? I mean, can you change the prop-pitch without a hydraulic pump running? Most prop pitch devices I know are operated by means of flyweights controlling valves that adjust pitch according to demanded pitch, and only works when the engine is running. Most modern planes, I believe, have a spring device set to push the prop to coarse (feather) pitch if the variable pitch unit or engine is lost.

[Siegfried]

In Bf109 pitch control is electric. A battery maybe control it while engine is not running...

[Strike]

The search is on...

[Blackdog_kt]

Yup, the flywheels and hydraulic assemblies are used in the governors of constant speed props. The 109 doesn't have a CSP, it uses an electric motor that directly commands changes to the pitch angle instead of commanding the desired RPM directly.

[Sternjaeger II]

yep, but it would need a battery and I suppose it would only be used for the startup, not for adjusting prop pitch before turning the engine on. Then again wasn't the 109 hand started normally?

[Strike]

Yup, the flywheels and hydraulic assemblies are used in the governors of constant speed props. The 109 doesn't have a CSP, it uses an electric motor that directly commands changes to the pitch angle instead of commanding the desired RPM directly.

Actually I seem to have found the answer, looking for a while now.

The 109 seems to have the system built like this, using VDM License-built Hamilton Standard propellers:


Pitch lever (electric) controls a motor (electric) which drives a pump (hydraulic) that changes propeller pitch.

So, while some planes have a hydraulic pump fitted on the engine gearbox with a mechanical link between the prop pitch lever and the command-link in the prop pitch governor, the 109 does not. It has a closed system which indeed is a lot less vulnerable in combat. Seeing that the possibility to lose your engine is always present in combat, it would be favourable to have prop pitch independent from the engine :)

I think this is the conclusion to my question at least :)

[VO101_Tom]

No you are right. I just don't want to map prop pitch 3 times. I'm banking on the E4 having the rocker switch.

I found this info on what I was talking about earlier, and it seems to agree with my ideas about the switch having to be held down. I have no idea what the source is but I think 'Wastel' was on the Ubi boards?

http://marseillegruppe.com/foro/viewtopic.php?p=2954&sid=3591268e7829c1e00ff328cb9d3b84f4

Hi.

This very interesting topic, who wrote the original post (schwarze-man), it is possible to contact him somewhere? I did not find it in my documents from the velocity of the propeller pitch accurate information.

But, if this true:
"The prop will adjust its pitch at a speed of 1.5° (degrees) per second for as long as the rocker switch is held and then stop when the switch is released. The movement of the pitch indicator is clockwise=fine,anti-clockwise=coarse. 1 Hour=6°,10min=1° so,1.5°/sec is 15min/sec or 1hour in 4sec! The range of the propellor is from 12.30 (full fine) to 08.30 (full coarse) and this equates to a pitch range of 22° to 46° "

...It is necessary to fix this in the game then! In COD (1.01.14588 patch), PP moving from 08:30 to 12:00 (21°) takes 58 sec! This means it, that PP moving speed 0.36°/sec. Compared with the value written early (1.5°/sec, or even in other documents 1°/sec), this huge difference, huge disadvantage (totally irrelevant, that PP are automatic or manual)! Some authentic source would be very good from this.

[jg27_mc]

I can't find the post where this video was requested. Well, here it is, it's self-explanatoy ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kcCWt7rUNQ

TY.
Love the way you do the hand movements describing what is happening. :-P

[xnomad]

The speed seemed fine after the patch, but now the hotfix has definitely slowed it down. It can't be realistic now because, as you mentioned, it takes forever to move and is a serious disadvantage in a fight.

I've seen the degrees per second mentioned somewhere else, I'll have to dig it up again.

[ElAurens]

The Curtiss Electric Propellers were directly controlled by electric motors. Not that it matters for this discussion, but hey, I'm a Curtiss fan boy.

:grin:

And interestingly the Curtiss prop could be operated as a standard constant speed type, or manually like the Bf 109 type.

[Lololopoulos]

Sorry for the noob question. Can someone explain what the 3 levers are for and what effect they have on engine RPM, speed and etc?
Thank yOU!!!

[VO101_Tom]

I've seen the degrees per second mentioned somewhere else, I'll have to dig it up again.

Yes, I remembered something like this. Great, thx.

[TomcatViP]

I agree that the pitch ctrler is much too slow for any use in a fight.

4 sec per hour (needles) seems to be a more realistic value. 40 doesn't !

Otherwise the spring loaded lever (centered) works fine.

~S

[JG53Frankyboy]

in this book
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/images/3763761284/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=299956&s=books

a speed of 3° per second is giving for a VDM propeller.
So, as one hour on the gauge is showing a difference of 6° of propellerpitch change , with the actuel speed of ~16sec for one hour , CoD is to slow indeed.

CoD = 6° in 16sec
real (according to linked book)= 6° in 2 sec

:(

[Codex]

I can't find the post where this video was requested. Well, here it is, it's self-explanatoy ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kcCWt7rUNQ

Nice demo in that video. You don't like adding commentry?

[xnomad]

I can't remember where I saw the info but this file does state that the VDM prop did 1 to 3 degrees per second. It isn't a quotable source though.

http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention/2005/Presentations/FeyTom/P09%20VDM%20Electric.pdf

[David198502]

Someone showed me this:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge/J%E4ger/Me109E/Instrumentenbeschreibung/Bilder.htm

It says:



The essential part, marked as bold font translated: The RPM is increased by pressing the Lever upwards and it's decreased by pressing it downwards. The Lever returns to the neutral position by itself.

That basically means it should be controlled just like the trim or the water radiators. So the way we have it now is not correct.

+1 for realism!i only fly the bf now and if it worked the way we have it now in game,then please keep it.btw, now i think you can control it much more accurate than before.
and i dont see the problem...why is it not correct the way we have the pp now?
"The essential part, marked as bold font translated: The RPM is increased by pressing the Lever upwards and it's decreased by pressing it downwards. The Lever returns to the neutral position by itself."
i think its exactly the way it works now.

[IvanK]

Hi.

This very interesting topic, who wrote the original post (schwarze-man), it is possible to contact him somewhere? I did not find it in my documents from the velocity of the propeller pitch accurate information.

But, if this true:
"The prop will adjust its pitch at a speed of 1.5° (degrees) per second for as long as the rocker switch is held and then stop when the switch is released. The movement of the pitch indicator is clockwise=fine,anti-clockwise=coarse. 1 Hour=6°,10min=1° so,1.5°/sec is 15min/sec or 1hour in 4sec! The range of the propellor is from 12.30 (full fine) to 08.30 (full coarse) and this equates to a pitch range of 22° to 46° "

...It is necessary to fix this in the game then! In COD (1.01.14588 patch), PP moving from 08:30 to 12:00 (21°) takes 58 sec! This means it, that PP moving speed 0.36°/sec. Compared with the value written early (1.5°/sec, or even in other documents 1°/sec), this huge difference, huge disadvantage (totally irrelevant, that PP are automatic or manual)! Some authentic source would be very good from this.

Schwarze-man has been responsible for a number of DB605 engine restorations he is about as "experten" on DB engines as you are going to get !

[IvanK]

in this book
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/images/3763761284/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=299956&s=books

a speed of 3° per second is giving for a VDM propeller.
So, as one hour on the gauge is showing a difference of 6° of propellerpitch change , with the actuel speed of ~16sec for one hour , CoD is to slow indeed.

CoD = 6° in 16sec
real (according to linked book)= 6° in 2 sec

:(

Which VDM propeller and in which aircraft ? Fw190 kommandgerate operation has a different pitch slew rate to the DB system that lacks kommandgerate.

[VO101_Tom]

Schwarze-man has been responsible for a number of DB605 engine restorations he is about as "experten" on DB engines as you are going to get !

I did not know him, but im spoken with Kürfürst an afternoon, he said who he is. He tries to establish the contact with him (there were a couple of exchanges of e-mails with years before). But - according to these - he totally reliable source, there is not a claim onto an other document. Right?

[JG53Frankyboy]

Which VDM propeller and in which aircraft ? Fw190 kommandgerate operation has a different pitch slew rate to the DB system that lacks kommandgerate.

i dont know. And wondering why the electric system of a VDM should work in different speeds with a BMW or DB601.

Anyway, if you choose 1° , 3° or something between per second, all is better than this 0,3...° :D

[IvanK]

I did not know him, but im spoken with Kürfürst an afternoon, he said who he is. He tries to establish the contact with him (there were a couple of exchanges of e-mails with years before). But - according to these - he totally reliable source, there is not a claim onto an other document. Right?

I communicate regularly with Schwarze man. As I indicated before he is a true DB605 expert. What he says is Gospel.

[IvanK]

i dont know. And wondering why the electric system of a VDM should work in different speeds with a BMW or DB601.

Anyway, if you choose 1° , 3° or something between per second, all is better than this 0,3...° :D

Because the FW190 system was a far more spophisticated system than that used in the BF109. There was no Kommandgerate system on the 109. I am away from some BMW801 refrences at the moment. In those refrences are some BMW801 Prop pitch slew rates. Once I find them I will post.

[Kurfürst]

Because the FW190 system was a far more spophisticated system than that used in the BF109. There was no Kommandgerate system on the 109. I am away from some BMW801 refrences at the moment. In those refrences are some BMW801 Prop pitch slew rates. Once I find them I will post.

The speed of propeller angle change is a function of the speed/torque of the electric motor that drives it, not wheter the constant speed govenor system wassophisticated or not..

Currently, from what I've seen in the forums I see the the following problems with Bf 109E propeller pitch control:

1, As per Luthier's newest patch log, the 109E-3 changed propeller cannot be feathered.. silly. The December 1939 109E pilot manual instructs the pilot to use "Segelstellung", ie. "Sailing Position" = feathered propeller position. The 109E could be fully feathered!!

2, The instument board pp. change lever has labels and positions for groBer and kleiner Drehzahl (increase/decrease rpm) settings but the real one had an extra bottom position: Segelstellung. This was fixed, ie. the lever stayed there and keep the propeller in feathered position when set, explicetely for the purpose of freeing him from the burden of having the keep pressing the lever all the time1!

3, Appearantly something also went wrong with the propellor pitch change speed and it is now 0.3 deg/sec.. bah. The documented figure is about 1 deg/sec.


In short what needs to be fixed:

1, (re-)Adding a fully featherable propellor and key binding for it on the 109E series, plus graphical rework of the dashboard prop pitch lever.
2, Fixing the propellor pitch speed change which became abnormally low.

[VO101_Tom]

...

1, (re-)Adding a fully featherable propellor and key binding for it on the 109E series, plus graphical rework of the dashboard prop pitch lever.
....

Hali. Már én is beraktam ide korábban erről infót, hogy három helyett négy állású lenne a légcsavar állásszög állító kapcsoló, de nem igazán foglalkoztak vele (és a középállás is szar helyen van emiatt jelenleg):

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=285356&postcount=29

Nem baj, minél többször látják, talán valakinek eszébe jut kicserélni. :)

[Absolut]

realistic or non realistic...blablabla , is its realistic that my reargunner can only shot when not moving, is it realistic that we all fly with no antropomorph, is it realistic that i alwaysm lost sound , is it realistic that the bombs now droping like darts, is it realistic that i can bail out under a second in any position, is it realistic...blablabla.
i payed 69euros, and i play a well made accurate game that impressed with its option to set.(now a lot of them works well)
But i do not accept that some tolds thats realistic and dont talk about put any option for it, after i played it for a long time now.
OK, im seriously playing since the begining of il2, i never had to be posting like this, but someone brutaly handed with my messerschmitt 109, its no virgin any more.
Gentleman is that the way u give us performance?


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u81/Frankie_1977/DSCN0387.jpg

no more propitch on this controls, is that ok?
im not amused any more, to spend time to fly my 109, its urs.

[IvanK]

"2, The instument board pp. change lever has labels and positions for groBer and kleiner Drehzahl (increase/decrease rpm) settings but the real one had an extra bottom position: Segelstellung. This was fixed, ie. the lever stayed there and keep the propeller in feathered position when set, explicetely for the purpose of freeing him from the burden of having the keep pressing the lever all the time1!"

And the Devs were made aware of precisely this a while ago ... so hopefully a further fix will ensue.

Mind you I cant think of too many occasions when you would want to feather a prop in a single engine aeroplane. Perhaps in the case of a failed engine and you are trying to minimise drag to increase your gliding range.

[II./JG1_Krupinski]

Just my two cents on our options and whether or not a feature was or was not included on any plane.

As far as our options are concerned, I'd love it for the prop pitch lever to function correctly, IMO and I may be wrong, this was push forward and RPM increased, move to middle, and it stops moving, pull it down and it decreases RPM, and again, move to middle it stops moving.

As long as we can functionally get there, and we are IMO, then the graphics can come later if at all. (personally i'd love to see that, but I'm not withholding my support from 1C over it)

Now, whether or not the Auto function with CSU fitted as a field mod came into service in Dec 39 or late 40 is a moot point. Even if it did see service in 39, this is not that plane.

[heloguy]

"2, The instument board pp. change lever has labels and positions for groBer and kleiner Drehzahl (increase/decrease rpm) settings but the real one had an extra bottom position: Segelstellung. This was fixed, ie. the lever stayed there and keep the propeller in feathered position when set, explicetely for the purpose of freeing him from the burden of having the keep pressing the lever all the time1!"

And the Devs were made aware of precisely this a while ago ... so hopefully a further fix will ensue.

Mind you I cant think of too many occasions when you would want to feather a prop in a single engine aeroplane. Perhaps in the case of a failed engine and you are trying to minimise drag to increase your gliding range.



From the looks of the switch, and I've seen a few as a mechanic, if it's springloaded in the middle position, then it doesn't have to be in the locked in the lower 'Segelstellung' position in order to feather it. The notch was just built in so that the pilot could quickly reach up in the event of an engine failure, place the switch there, and then the prop would feather as it's being held in the that position. You should still be able to feather the prop by holding the lever down, if you wanted to for whatever reason.

[Blackdog_kt]

You're probably correct.
If you've seen a picture of the actual instrument there's a detent on the lower position to keep the switch there, probably so that the pilot doesn't have to manually hold it there and fight the spring-loaded return to center while it feathers.

On the other hand, it could also be that the detent enables an extended range of motion that's not available via the normal control range to prevent accidental feathering in flight.

In any case the operation is similar from the pilot's point of view, it should pretty much work the way Kurfurst pointed out: spring loaded 3-way switch with a separate feathering detent, corrected rate of pitch change (it's too slow currently) and if i may add, solving the reversal issue (controls are backwards now).


realistic or non realistic...blablabla , is its realistic that my reargunner can only shot when not moving, is it realistic that we all fly with no antropomorph, is it realistic that i alwaysm lost sound , is it realistic that the bombs now droping like darts, is it realistic that i can bail out under a second in any position, is it realistic...blablabla.
i payed 69euros, and i play a well made accurate game that impressed with its option to set.(now a lot of them works well)
But i do not accept that some tolds thats realistic and dont talk about put any option for it, after i played it for a long time now.
OK, im seriously playing since the begining of il2, i never had to be posting like this, but someone brutaly handed with my messerschmitt 109, its no virgin any more.
Gentleman is that the way u give us performance?


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u81/Frankie_1977/DSCN0387.jpg

no more propitch on this controls, is that ok?
im not amused any more, to spend time to fly my 109, its urs.

You can still use your controls for prop pitch. There's a big zone that corresponds to each switch position so it's pretty easy to do.

If you move your slider up or down it's like holding the button in that position and pitch will change as long as you hold it there, return it to center when you reach your desired pitch and it will stay there.

And yes, it's actually more realistic this way.

No offence, but i think a lot of people carry their IL2:1946 habits with them and that's why they can't get to grips with how many of the controls work. I had some trouble too initially, but now that i understood how most of them work i find the new way of doing things much better than what we had. Real planes don't all have the same controls and it's good that this is reflected in the sim. Sure, there are bugs but patches are frequent and we're getting there.

[Varrattu]

Which VDM propeller and in which aircraft ? Fw190 kommandgerate operation has a different pitch slew rate to the DB system that lacks kommandgerate.

Maybe that the manual "D.(Luft)T. 3810 - VDM-Verstell-Luftschrauben Gerätehandbuch" can help us. But I didn't find anything of its content in open sources.

Regards Varrattu

PS: Have a look at this
http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention/2005/Presentations/FeyTom/P09%20VDM%20Electric.pdf

From the book, The Messerschmitt Bf.109 by James F. Craig.
"Another departure was the propeller pitch control, which was mounted near the centre of the instrument panel instead of on the throttle quadrant, and the prop pitch indicator, which was in the form of a clock face, complete with hour & minute hands. Blade angles of the VDM electric propeller, which were infinitely variable from a low pitch position of 22.5 degree to fully feathered 90 degree position, were read as clock settings. About ten minutes on the clock face was equivalent to one degree of propeller pitch."

[Kurfürst]

And the Devs were made aware of precisely this a while ago ... so hopefully a further fix will ensue.

Good to hear that. Mind you, I am patient with Oleg and his team, I am just noting these issues so if hopefully the Devs read these boards, they have chance to fix it some time or another.

Mind you I cant think of too many occasions when you would want to feather a prop in a single engine aeroplane. Perhaps in the case of a failed engine and you are trying to minimise drag to increase your gliding range.

Agreed, its not a serious issue.. though I wonder why they removed it in the first place...?
I may be ignorant of the practical applications of feathering a propeller, but isn't that the only reason you'd want to feather the propeller on any plane...?

A bit of an info I managed to dig up (English transation of the French technical report of Bf 109 E-3 WNr 1304, captured in late 1939 in France, subsequently tested in Britain)

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/109_stuff/PROAIR40_190040.jpg

[heloguy]

On the other hand, it could also be that the detent enables an extended range of motion that's not available via the normal control range to prevent accidental feathering in flight.

That may be true, but I'd almost go as far to bet that this was an analog switch that worked on resistance: the further you moved the switch away from center, the faster the prop adjusted up to the max, which was around .7 degrees per Kurfurt's note. This was simple enough back then, as there's no special pressure sensing, it would just be an increase and decrease in electrical resistance.


Edit: Changed the prop change speed after reading Kurfurst's post better.

[Kurfürst]

-.....he faster the prop adjusted up to the max, which was around .7 degrees per Kurfurt's note. This was simple enough back then, as there's no special pressure sensing, it would just be an increase and decrease in electrical resistance.

Keep well in mind that the French report above is based on an assumption:

"assuming that the speed of the rotation of the electric motor to be 2500 rpm..."

then, IF this is TRUE

"the speed of change of the pitch would be of the order of 0,7 degrees per second"

Keywords: "assuming" "would be" "of the order of".

I presume the assumption by the French simply follows the gear ratios found, ie. IF the e-motor runs at 2500, THEN the prop pitch change will be 0.7 degrees/sec."

HOWEVER the speed of the rotation of the electric motor (VDM Elektrischer Drehzahlregler 9-9518B type) appears to be 5700 /min, and NOT 2500 /min as the French assumed. Ie. a bit more than TWICE as fast.

See: D.Luft. T 3810 VDM Verstellscharuben Geraete Handbuch, page 19, page 29:

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/s19.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/109_stuff/VDM_DhZR_9-9518B.jpg

Based on the above, assuming about 1,5 degrees/sec for the 109E seems entirely reasonable. After all, that's about what every single source tells us, including Schwarze Mann. And it was so before in the patch..

[IvanK]

A little more from Schwarze-mann

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/638/dbbmpropitch.jpg

So in Static conditions 1.5 deg sec and in normal (under load) conditions 1 deg per sec. so in flight imo we should be seeing 1 deg sec pitch rate. This is consistent with all the references shown in this thread.

Devs are aware of this issue expect a fix soon.

[VO101_Tom]

A little more from Schwarze-mann

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/638/dbbmpropitch.jpg

So in Static conditions 1.5 deg sec and in normal (under load) conditions 1 deg per sec. so in flight imo we should be seeing 1 deg sec pitch rate. This is consistent with all the references shown in this thread.

Devs are aware of this issue expect a fix soon.

Great. Thank you.
I was thinking about something meanwhile. It reports it if the velocity of the elektromotor changes (Kurfurst doc: PP motor 2000-6000 rpm), that with the switch can be made change in? slow or fast moving it depends, how much I drive the switch out from middle?

[edit] No. I found the circuit diagram [1 (http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/s16.jpg)] [2 (http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/s17.jpg)], its only a simple switch. PP have constant speed.
Ok ok, i'm finished :-D