109's 20mm cannons

[GOA_Potenz]

I been playing with convergence settings for the 20mm cannons, but i can't see any effect on it, basicly can't hit anything with those guns, and i'm have decents good aiming skills. always seems to be so high, anything worng with it
or convergence settings doesn't work at all???

[Pist-N-Broke]

I been playing with convergence settings for the 20mm cannons, but i can't see any effect on it, basicly can't hit anything with those guns, and i'm have decents good aiming skills. always seems to be so high, anything worng with it
or convergence settings doesn't work at all???

The real 109 drivers had a similar problem, especially when deflection shooting. The cowl 7.92mm machine guns had a much higher projectile velocity than the 20mm cannon, which was seriously slower, so if you were shooting at a target with MG, and were hitting the target, you couldn't fire the cannon and get the cannon shells to take the same tragectory as the higher velocity MG bullets. To compensate, there was of course a compromise. I believe the stock harmonisation for 109 E's was MG was set to 400M, and 20mm cannon harmonised to 200m. I believe at that point both MG and Cannon had the same impact point. But again, if you were deflection shooting, the different projectile velocity still played havoc with aiming. Probably why you see so little gun camera footage of German deflection shooting, compared to allied gun camera footage?

[xnomad]

The great thing about the damage model now is that the MG's actually do some real damage. I get a lot of kills with the 109's MGs. You can also be so surgical with them as they damage what you actually hit. I use them a lot at a distance as there is just so much ammo you can be real wasteful with it.

Then when you get in real close give it some cannon. But yeah you have to aim higher for cannon to adjust for the drop.

As for deflection shooting, the Emil isn't that easy with the cannons but the later models with the nose cannon and the MG151 are a lot better. The Emil's MG FF muzzle velocity is too slow and I think a lot of real LW pilots only used them for close in with very little deflection.

The MG131 and MG151 of the G6 and upwards had fairly similar velocities (IIRC). And are easier to group together in a deflection shot.

I've read that a vast majority of pilots were actually quite poor at deflection shooting, until gyro gunsights came in. They didn't have hours to train like we do, hitting refly and shooting some more. The ones that were naturals had often had a lot of experience in their childhood with hunting and shooting so learned the skill then.

Well except for the LW in Russia as they had lots of time to learn and lots of targets Walter Kuprinski springs to mind here.

[Grand_Armee]

I've always wanted a feature that would simulate the way convergences were set in wartime i.e., where the plane was set on a trestle parallel to the ground, and the guns were tested against targets to see where the shells were actually hitting. Instead it was always create a quick mission, and test it against ain aircraft set to fly straight without killing you while you try to hit it. Then going back to watch your track, tring to remember where you were aiming at said point in track, etc. ad-finitum.

Ah well...guess it burns up the idle time doing it that way.

[ZaltysZ]

Try this

MG h-convergence: 500, v-convergence: 150
Cannons h-convergence: 800, v-convergence: 150

It seems h-convergence and v-convergence have switched meanings in game. In anyway, above settings work well for me.

[Sauf]

There was a thread over at sim hq about this, apparently revi sight shoots low and to the left, cant find the post but it was quite detailed, if you use ww view on a slow flying friendly bomber then switch to the revi the aiming point is different, rounds strike at the ww aim point not the revi.

[Rattlehead]

I also find the 20mm cannon a little hard to be effective with. It's not hard to see why the later models had one 20mm firing through the spinner...much more effective, imo, even with one less gun. Okay, it was the more effective MG151, but still.

I've scored some kills, but it's more pray and spray than anything in my case with the 20mm. I like the 7.92mm machine guns though; they're much more effective than in the old Il-2, where they were basically useless.

[JG52Krupi]

I also find the 20mm cannon a little hard to be effective with. It's not hard to see why the later models had one 20mm firing through the spinner...much more effective, imo, even with one less gun. Okay, it was the more effective MG151, but still.

I've scored some kills, but it's more pray and spray than anything in my case with the 20mm. I like the 7.92mm machine guns though; they're much more effective than in the old Il-2, where they were basically useless.

You couldn't be more right :D, I never had any luck with the 7.92's in the old il2 but now they are fantastic :cool:

[KG26_Alpha]

I also find the 20mm cannon a little hard to be effective with. It's not hard to see why the later models had one 20mm firing through the spinner...much more effective, imo, even with one less gun. Okay, it was the more effective MG151, but still.

I've scored some kills, but it's more pray and spray than anything in my case with the 20mm. I like the 7.92mm machine guns though; they're much more effective than in the old Il-2, where they were basically useless.

The old Il2 Mg17's were effective until some decided to change something and they become less effective over the patchings it received.

Stuka's strafing trucks has become a chore in the later IL2 1946 versions compared to the earlier Mg17 versions.






.

[Hellbender]

Actually the only known real expert defelction shooter of the fighter aces of WW II was Hans-Joachim Marseille.

Here´s some explanation of his tactics in a documentary: Deflection shooting in a curve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-W7DntLtPo

[FG28_Kodiak]

Orginal convergence of Bf109E-3:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8881/bf109e1e3starreschusswa.jpg

[Pist-N-Broke]

Orginal convergence of Bf109E-3:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8881/bf109e1e3starreschusswa.jpg

From the diagram it looks like the best firing solutions are...

Aim LOW at 200M for maximum concentration of fire. You will still have difficulty with different impact points for deflection shooting, due to different MG and cannon projectile velocity.

Aim dead on for targets at 400M, but notice serious 4.5M DIVERGENCE of cannon at 400M. Almost a waste of time using cannon at 400+, unless you are attacking BIG targets, or kick the rudder left and right.

At 300M MG and cannon still shoot higher than gunsight aimpoint. Also MG and cannon have neither verticle or horizontal convergence relative to aimpoint, but offers a 'spray' concentration of fire. Would be damn near impossible to be able to get combined MG and cannon deflection shots.

No wonder the pilots who got the most kills were also the ones that said get in real close.

P.S. Love the diagram.

[JG14_Jagr]

There is a reason why the MG FF was replaced as soon as they could with the MG151. The MGFF is a slow rate of fire slow velocity weapon (relatively speaking) and its tough to hit a maneuvering target with it..

[LukeFF]

There is a reason why the MG FF was replaced as soon as they could with the MG151. The MGFF is a slow rate of fire slow velocity weapon (relatively speaking) and its tough to hit a maneuvering target with it..

That, and it didn't carry a lot of ammo.

[GOA_Potenz]

Thanks that diagram helps me a lot with convergence settings

[fireship4]

Here is a similar image I found around here. Note MG17 not show (I only just realised :S). EDIT: I have also since realised that the MG151/20 in this diagram is not the same as an MGFF, and the trajectories would be different.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/fireship4/unbenannt2tz.jpg

and the appropriate page from Flea's guide:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/fireship4/appage.jpg

[Bryan21cag]

I've always wanted a feature that would simulate the way convergences were set in wartime i.e., where the plane was set on a trestle parallel to the ground, and the guns were tested against targets to see where the shells were actually hitting.



THIS WOULD BE AWESOME:) I am not sure how intensive the design would be but how cool would it be to have this in the setup screen, where you could visually slide the targets further and closer and then click a button and fire the guns and see where they hit the targets and adjust on the fly before going up.

Wishful thinking im sure with all the things still left to deal with but I would love to see this someday.

[winny]

Is bullet drop (ie. curved trajectory) modelled in CoD? Looking at the tracers I'd say no.

[pupo162]

Is bullet drop (ie. curved trajectory) modelled in CoD? Looking at the tracers I'd say no.

by looking at tracers i say yes.

[winny]

by looking at tracers i say yes.

I'm only going off videos I've seen but there should be a noticeble curve to the tracers, as the diagrams above show, the guns fire at an angle. If you get too close your bullets would simply go over what you were shooting at. I've not seen this.

I've also yet to see any tracers cross over (this may just be the videos I've watched) at convergence.

[pupo162]

I'm only going off videos I've seen but there should be a noticeble curve to the tracers, as the diagrams above show, the guns fire at an angle. If you get too close your bullets would simply go over what you were shooting at. I've not seen this.

I've also yet to see any tracers cross over (this may just be the videos I've watched) at convergence.

well, thsoe images are obviusly out of proporsion.

assuming a bullte travels 400 meters in the first second of its flight, it will only have dropped 5 meters, not the kind of stuff you will easely see. its has mor eor less the smae bullet drop as in il2, but since tracers are hardeer to follow in this game, you wont be noticing it that easely.

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/user/wwwDOTdalsgaardDOTeu#p/c/981CBC682E928D2A

checkthsi video, when the spitti is right behind the DO, you can see tracers curving down in the distance

[winny]

It's hard to tell.. Anyone seen any CoD tracers at night videos?

Shouldn't the tracers cross over when they reach the the centre of the gunsight?

[drewpee]

I think the mgs are more effective now because its much easier to see where your rounds are going. The 20mm were put in so as to out gun the six and eight gun Huracan and Spitfire but at the moment I fear they just shake the plane mess up your aim. A high explosive 20mm shell would be nice but isn't available in COD at this time.

[Blackdog_kt]

Both bullet drop and rounds crossing over is modeled. I adjusted my cannon convergence specifically for this reason, since i wanted to use the cannons as a "final blow" after softening them up with the MGs but they were always shooting too high at the close ranges i fired from.

[kimosabi]

Marseille was King of snapshots!